Starter Sound System for a Small Club
BC
I'm putting together a live-music booking proposal for a
restaurant that is going to be using an underused bar/lounge
area upstairs for live music. So far they've been booking
mostly DJ acts for weekends and the DJ's have been bringing
their own PA equipment. The space currently only has built-
in some small speakers and sound for background music. There
is no stage -- just a cleared space, roughly about 25x30'
under a high skylight (~15'), and which then extends about
about another 50' under about a 10' high ceiling, so the
layout is an elongated rectangle with mostly booths once you
get away from the skylight area. There is also an ajoining
space running lengthwise alongside for the bar, stairwell,
and additional booth space, and that's broken up by various
dividers.
While my main interest is the booking/musician part (which
I would be doing mostly for fun because I know a lot of
musicians), I do feel that there should be some sort of
sound system in place, even if they are still just trying
out stuff. The manager initially thought this would be
prohibitively expensive until I told him how cheap those
some of DJ systems run, and he's been mostly pleased with
their sound.
I've always been a roll-your-own component guy, but I have
a friend with portable JBL PA system that's always impressed
me with its clarity, at the lower volumes at least, despite
all of the plastic. I'm thinking that something like that
might work for the interim and then if things get more serious,
it can be easily sold off and a more substantial system put
into place, minimizing the cost risk to the owners.
The volume level doesn't have to be ear-plug high, especially
for the further booths, and mostly non-rock acts are being
considered. I was told that rock acts maybe considered for
the occasional Saturday, but that seems to inherently mean a
beefier, substantially costlier system. I'm assuming some
good mikes and extra cables should be bought as well.
I've Googled a bit on the equipment options, but I like to
hear opinions from more experienced people on this. Soo...?
(And this is a nice break from the political groups I'm
always engaged in flame wars with.)
Thanks in advice for any info/tips.
-BC
George Gleason
Put in a nice 100 amp sub panel at the stage, a few lights, then and let
the bands bring their own
George
Sl...@sarasotaslim.com
I agree with George. The bands would be much better served with a
stage and some lights and some clean dedicated power. Let them bring
what ever PA they already have - most pros have something and they are
usually more comfortable with thier own stuff. A local club owner was
ready to get some cheesy little PA to be abused and blown up by knuckle
heads and he took my advice and decieded to make a stage - lights and
power his priority instead. The knuckle head factor is scary - blown
speakers, stolen mics, cords and stands - you don't have that problem
with properly installed lights. Lights make things look much more
professional and all bands HATE setting up lights even if they do own
them.
KGT
investment for the sure to happen abuse the house system will become an
expensive table for bands to put their mains on! It's a great idea on
paper but it rarely works IMHO.
Kevin Tracy
BC
The thing is, though, is that I'm also looking at a showcase/
open mike option. I have a friend, the same one with the
JBL setup, interested in running that, but she doesn't want
to keep having to lug her stuff upstairs. I've seen small
clubs get by for years with a minimal system, if with beefy
speakers, and with the bartender being responsible for not
letting the sound from getting out of hand.
Is the main concern with performers plugging in incorrectly
and blowing out stuff? If we're talking unplugged-ish types
of music, and not rock, does it matter?
And thanks for the quick responses.
-BC
George Gleason
@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
you are vastly under-estimating the complete lack of responsibility that
muso's using "house systems" exhibit
you want a simple house system
put in a behringer powered head and two behringer 1220 speakers 4 behringer
8500 mics and cheap mic stands
total expense under 800$
don't come screaming here when the gear is trashed 3 weeks after it is
installed
George
Sidhu
George Gleason wrote:
pense under 800$
>
> don't come screaming here when the gear is trashed 3 weeks after it is
> installed
> George
trashed after 3 weeks because of 'mis'use or trashed after three weeks
irrespective of how it's used ?
Sidhu
BC
experiences -- is it a statistical thing where if you
have enough musicians of unknown sound skills
come through, there will eventually be one who will
really screw things up? This is in the musician-rich
Boston area, and virtually all of the musicians who
would be considered can be expected to be pretty
savvy as far as equipment goes. Would that make
a difference?
But you're otherwise suggesting to go cheap to the
point that there will be no big tears lost on blown/
damaged goods. I was sort of leaning that way. I've
already noticed how Behringer stuff is cheap -- is
that good cheap or bad cheap? I'm assuming that
support/service will be lousy if something does
break, but breaking it shouldn't be TOO easy....
How about used stuff? We have Daddy's around
here.
-BC
George Gleason
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
due to abuse
how else would it fail?
George
George Gleason
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
I have had a ber powered head , the 1220's and a "bunch of the 1520f
(floor monitors ) in service as rental units for over a year
they go out 3-4 times a week
no fails
no problems
behringers service is leading te industry in quality
have no fears of the quality of the goods
daddys is Ok but check oput www.americanmusical.com
george
BC
-BC
George Gleason
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
> Very, very good-to-know stuff. Thanks.
>
> -BC
>
you have to remember rental is not the same as providing for free
the rental customers have a deposit that will not be returned should the
gear get abused
George
Todd H.
> I have had a ber powered head , the 1220's and a "bunch of the 1520f
> (floor monitors ) in service as rental units for over a year
> they go out 3-4 times a week
We're running a PMX2000 head with 1520 tops, and 1220 wedges for
nearly all of our shows in small clubs, and it's been lovely.
Had a horn DOA issue on 2 wedges that I suspect had a LOT to do UPS's
shit assed handling of them (as the boxes arrived with more than a
little evidence of the Gorilla treament). Those issues were
proactively handled by Jim Savery of Behringer with speed and
efficiency that I didn't think was possible from any supplier, much
less such a value-oriented one.
We also have the 18" sub boxes, but typicaly use them for outdoor
shows only.
Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."
Phildo
"Sidhu" <nitin...@indiatimes.com> wrote in message
news:1126809400.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Phildo
Darkfire
some letters to create the following:
<Small system recommendation wanted>
I'll leave speakers/amps to people who know far more than me but I run
an Open Mic / Jam session every week.
Equipment I have boughts specifically for it is below (I have a full
system which I use the fixed amps and speakers for the night).
Drum Kit - bottom end but good enough
Behringer - Bass and Guitar Amps
Cheap Guiatr and Bass
Saves multiple changovers and people carting equipment around.
Behringer Eurorack 12 channel desk
Behringer EQ for monitors
Behringer Gate
I have volenteer sound guys (I'm in a college so have sensible people)
and a crew member who supervisers.
All worked very well for me - cheap and good.
Chris
BC
Their stuff certainly looked great for the price
when I poked about the usual online stores, but
I was suspicious of there having to be some sort
of trade-off in quality.
Thanks again, guys.
-BC
Steve White
news:oXiWe.45889$qY1....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> you are vastly under-estimating the complete lack of responsibility that
> muso's using "house systems" exhibit
As a muso I'd just like to throw this in ... Even honest, responsible musos
pose a risk. I know because I've been that muso. I did (and do) everything I
can to get the information and experience I need and yet even I am acutely
aware of the risks when trying to use an unfamiliar system.
I've had more than a few occasions where the house engineer hasn't turned up
and I've been faced with huge desks and racks full of stuff I barely
understood. I recall one particular occasion where the band who used the
gear before us had disassembled the whole kit caboodle - EQ, crossover, amps
etc. On each occasion I managed to get things going, and sounding OK,
without any damage to the house kit, but the risk was there all the time.
I'd hate to have paid for that kit!
Cheers,
Steve W
Phildo
"BC" <call...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126810624.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> But you're otherwise suggesting to go cheap to the
> point that there will be no big tears lost on blown/
> damaged goods. I was sort of leaning that way. I've
> already noticed how Behringer stuff is cheap -- is
> that good cheap or bad cheap?
Good cheap. Best bang for the buck out there.
>I'm assuming that
> support/service will be lousy if something does
> break, but breaking it shouldn't be TOO easy....
Actually Behringer have the best customer service in the business right now.
Phildo
Sidhu
Phildo wrote:
> Misuse of course. Maybe you don't have typical club bands in India?
>
> Phildo
Well, maybe not then I guess. Either the band know their stuff (rarely
a case) or they let an engineer who knows his stuff (also a rare case
here) manage the sound. And besides, if a club owner is going to invest
good money on
sound, and then let any tom or dick play around with it, i'd consider
it foolish.
Also that there is so much Behringer bashing all over, i was wanting to
know if the refrence was being made to poor build qualty, which would
make Behringer gear highly prone to breakdowns.
Regards,
Sidhu
gsha...@comcast.net
the 3012 eq's.(crap) a pair of 8024's I got that were DOA(more crap),
but recently, frankly, I have been plesently shocked on the qualaity
that they are producing. The DDX3216 (my most recent purchase/with an
ADA8K) is currently my new favorite toy. It has features found on
PM5D's, and I am amazed with the clean sound it produces. Also, the DCX
DSP unit is the absolutly best bang for the buck in pro audio period.
Every where they go, the sound gets better. And no, I am not a
Behringer dealer. I only use their gear to make a living.
infini...@yahoo.com
For:
1)You say that the area is upstairs but don't say if there is an
elevator. There is no way you will get bands to carry heavy equipment
up stairs.
2)You are in a restaurant environment. You will want to disturb the
patrons as little as possible. An installed system would minimze setup
time. Do you really want bands hauling large speakers through your
restaurant. It will be bad enough hauling the drum set through there.
Also it should reduce setup time since it takes time to "debug" the
system (eq settings, feedback, etc)
3) You can get mediocre PA that will not be up to the standards of the
guys here, BUT it would be adequate for the average person. Alot of
small time bands are very successful using average level MI level gear.
4) It is feasible if you have someone "in charge" of the system:
operation and maintenance. I would not trust the average band to go
ahead and just use your system.
5) Lights would be an absolute must as George said. There is no reason
not to have lights.
Against
1) Money- Unless your budget is in the neighborhood of $10,000, you
will not be able to spec out a system up to the standards of the guys
in this group. But see item 3 above. It would really depend on the
future direction of the club. A small system would be ok for dj or
acoustic acts, but would be worthless for larger rock bands.
2) If you buy a small system with cheaper gear, you will get a poor
return on investment when you go to sell it or trade it in. Be careful
when you say that you can easily sell it off.
3) You need to allocate space for the front of house position. You
will need to do this regardless of who provides the PA, but you will
want some means of locking the equipment up.
General
Check out the resturant/lounge clubs in the nice hotels. The best
example would be LAs Vegas Strip hotels. They have nice systems but
they really control the volume well. There are booth type seats all
around the places. The only down side is the cheesy looking plexiglass
they put around the drums.
Your stage area is a nice size and will be nice for bands.
Where are you located geographically? Someone in the group can
probably consult if you need it.
Kurt Albershardt
> George Gleason wrote:
>
>> Put in a nice 100 amp sub panel at the stage, a few lights, then and let
>> the bands bring their own
>
>
> stage and some lights and some clean dedicated power. Let them bring
> what ever PA they already have - most pros have something and they are
> usually more comfortable with thier own stuff.
If it were my space, I'd have a small company switch feeding pin &
sleeve connector. I'd also have a basic distro on hand which plugged
into that connector and provided several 20A circuits. There are plenty
of mid-level PA companies that have decent gear but don't own distro,
and neither you nor your insurance company wants to see what some of the
homebrew stuff looks like.
BC
http://www.wwbw.com/Behringer-EUROPOWER-PACK-4-i156772.music
http://www.wwbw.com/Behringer-EUROPOWER-PACK-1-i156761.music
Spend another $100-300 on extra cables, power strips, cheap
mike stands and it looks like they would be good to go.
I'm less clear about the need for a subwoofer, although that's
only another $250-300 for a Behringer
Ballpark at least? This cost level would be easily sellable.
-BC
infini...@yahoo.com
Get some speaker stands too so you can get the speakers up at ear level.
infini...@yahoo.com
Behringer. George and Phildo seem to like Behringer (as well as other
manufactures) alot and they post alot of information in here. Continue
to do research as you are doing. Behringer is known to have had a poor
track record in the past but supposedly the quality has improved. I
personally have had a newer Behringer compressor break on me but I am
giving them another chance and am trying the DCX2496 to run my front
fills. The fact of the matter is that in the cheaper gear, you won't
get much better than Behringer. Spending an extra $200 for Mackie or
Peavey speakers would only be a waste of money.
George Gleason
> get much better than Behringer. Spending an extra $200 for Mackie or
> Peavey speakers would only be a waste of money.
>
>
you have to spend seriously more money(like 10 to 20x ) to get a
significant improvment over the behringer
and even then the support will not be as good as behringer is giving
George
rich
bass bins and 3 channel amp in flightcase for under £2k sounds fantastic
and is designed to be expandable should you need it.
nothing else in that price range comes close.
Gene Sweeny
> Hi
> I'm putting together a live-music booking proposal for a
> restaurant that is going to be using an underused bar/lounge
> area upstairs for live music.
If you are putting together a proposal for a *business* and have to
come here for advice... I'd say rethink your day job.
> I've always been a roll-your-own component guy, but I have
> a friend with portable JBL PA system that's always impressed
> me with its clarity, at the lower volumes at least, despite
> all of the plastic. I'm thinking that something like that
> might work for the interim and then if things get more serious,
> it can be easily sold off and a more substantial system put
> into place, minimizing the cost risk to the owners.
No one is willing to pay for quality work nowadays.
> Thanks in advice for any info/tips.
See, that's just it.... It irks me when I see this group just give away
free advice to random people. From a google search, I see that this is
your first post to this group, and your interests mostly lie in Star
Trek, Liberalism, politics, survialism, and howard stern.
There are no free lunches in this world pal. I ventured into this
business we call live sound several years ago and it's been a hard
climb, and I'm still a low level player.
If you are truly a "live sound newbie" then I can see people giving you
advice on the basics and pointing you in the way of information. That
said, I don't know why people are telling you to get a small behringer
system or put a 100amp disconnect on the stage (which is more asinine
than the behr solution, given the layout of this restaurant).
George, no one wants to carry their gear up a flight of steps. Soooo,
BC, don't just have an electrician install a power disconnect and call
it a day.
Also, don't go to Musician's friend or Guitar Center and buy one of
their packaged PAs. Don't buy a complete behringer system either.
(you can find diamonds in the rough both at guitar center or from
behringers offerings, don't get me wrong).
What you should do, is look in the yellow pages, find a pro audio
installer and have them come out and give you 3 estimates. Also
subcontract a lighting place to get you some stage lighting.
1) Get the job done, vocal PA. (no guitars/drums/bass through the PA)
basically, it will amplify vocals and keyboards and people will be able
to hear. 2 or 4 par cans to light the muso's.
2) mid level installed system. Here, you will have a full system with
tops/subs an installed snake with a small mix posistion. A A&H
mixwizard comes to mind, so does JBL MPro412s some kinda sub maybe a
few small monitors for the guys on stage. Probably 3 power amps, 1 for
tops 1 for the sub and 1 for two monitor channels. Maybe 16 or more
cans with a nice controller to save scenes and do some more advanced
stuff. a few effects lights.
3) full on installed system. We're talking near top of the line
installed gear with a nice digital console at FOH will all the
processing you'll ever need, bi or triamped tops and gobs of power.
8-12 intelligent lighting fixturs with some stage washes.
for a rough order of magnitude... 1 will cost you 5-10 grand 2 will
cost you 20-35 grand and 3 will cost you 40-60 grand.
WIth any of the choices if you hire a professional, you'll get better
results, the install will be clean and neat, and it will function
better because they can make suggestions given your needs. And, you
might be able to fill the techical riders of some touring acts that
come your way. Clubs that get good music in, stay popular and do well.
Don't scrimp.
If you do it yourself, it will work, but it will sound like garbage,
and probably be a waste of money in the end.
We have a local bar around here that took george's suggestion of
installing a 100A disconnect. For them, it made sense. ground level,
easy in and out. They also built a stage.
That place brings in a consistent crowd on weekends and every band
around this area likes to play there cause the set up is easy.
Make it easy, bands will want to play there. Make it quality and easy,
and great bands will want to play there.
Oh, and find local guy that can run the system and help the musicans
set up and stuff.
George Gleason
>
> If you are truly a "live sound newbie" then I can see people giving you
> advice on the basics and pointing you in the way of information.
or as I did
advise them to avoid getting into the "sound" business
muso WILL hump gear up stairs, as will sound companies
no matter what system is put in without a HUGE commitment to hireing and
keeping a house sound guy the project is doomed to fail
or they could just avoid failure all together by giving the bands what they
need to have to use the room
a disconnect and some lights
George
Gene Sweeny
> >
> > If you are truly a "live sound newbie" then I can see people giving you
> > advice on the basics and pointing you in the way of information.
>
> or as I did
> advise them to avoid getting into the "sound" business
> muso WILL hump gear up stairs, as will sound companies
I absolutely would not take a job where I had to haul 4000 lbs of gear
up a flight of steps. Ain't happening. If they don't have a service
elevator, sorry, I ain't doing it. All the while I've been doing this
I've had zero jobs that required the humping of gear up a flight of
stairs.
> no matter what system is put in without a HUGE commitment to hireing and
> keeping a house sound guy the project is doomed to fail
I dissagree. There are several places around here that have installed
sound, and most mands like it because they can just come unpack the
guitars and play. That said, there are some places that did it right
and some that did it wrong. The ones that did it wrong are having a
hard time keeping bands there.
I don't see how it's an issue. Any band that comes will have a FOH
engineer if they're worth a salt. If the system is of quality
components, no engineer will turn it away. He might bring some of his
own processing.
If the band is small, or has no engineer they might run sound from
stage. This is easily supported by having a small mixer on stage as
well that can send a mix to the FOH board for the mains. It's
versitle, and would support a monitor engineer as well for larger
bands.
> or they could just avoid failure all together by giving the bands what they
> need to have to use the room
>
> a disconnect and some lights
Mind you, I'm not saying to NOT give a disconnect and lights. I'm just
saying that if he hires a professional, and does it right, he may
attract a higher pedigree of artist and it could be good for business.
Having a disconnect there is a must, not only for his gear, but maybe
someone would want to bring there own, and they could if there was
room. Then they'd have what they need like you said, a disconnect and
lights.
George Gleason
news:1126877622.7...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> George Gleason wrote:
>> >
>> > If you are truly a "live sound newbie" then I can see people giving
>> > you advice on the basics and pointing you in the way of
>> > information.
>>
>> or as I did
>> advise them to avoid getting into the "sound" business
>> muso WILL hump gear up stairs, as will sound companies
>
> I absolutely would not take a job where I had to haul 4000 lbs of gear
> up a flight of steps. Ain't happening. If they don't have a service
> elevator, sorry, I ain't doing it.
who says 4000 lbs of gear? your creating a senerio that has no basis in
reality
All the while I've been doing this
> I've had zero jobs that required the humping of gear up a flight of
> stairs.
then you haven't been at it very long
>
>> no matter what system is put in without a HUGE commitment to hireing
>> and keeping a house sound guy the project is doomed to fail
>
> I dissagree. There are several places around here that have installed
> sound, and most mands like it because they can just come unpack the
> guitars and play. That said, there are some places that did it right
> and some that did it wrong. The ones that did it wrong are having a
> hard time keeping bands there.
there are a few clubs that can make a house system work
but none without a house tech
if you leave it to the musos you might as well not bother
>
> I don't see how it's an issue. Any band that comes will have a FOH
> engineer if they're worth a salt.
most bands don't have foh guys, even most mid level touring bands show up
without engineers
this is just wishful thinking on your part
If the system is of quality
> components, no engineer will turn it away. He might bring some of his
> own processing.
anything but the most in demand bands will play on any POS you throw at
them, they are there to get paid
Even touring with a band and advancing shows for our 18 input 5 monitor
mix rider we'd still show up and find two mackie powered heads
and we would make it work because there was a show to do
>
> If the band is small, or has no engineer they might run sound from
> stage. This is easily supported by having a small mixer on stage as
> well that can send a mix to the FOH board for the mains. It's
> versitle, and would support a monitor engineer as well for larger
> bands.
>
>> or they could just avoid failure all together by giving the bands
>> what they need to have to use the room
>>
>> a disconnect and some lights
>
> Mind you, I'm not saying to NOT give a disconnect and lights. I'm
> just saying that if he hires a professional, and does it right, he may
> attract a higher pedigree of artist and it could be good for business.
of course this could be true
but this is NOT what I got from reading his post
I got
we have a little club and could get bands to play cheaper if we had a
system like "joes" does
well "Joes" has two eons and a yamaha MG series mixer, and a dozen Jimmy
Buffet wanna be's are ok with it
I did not read anything in his post that indicated a commitment to pro
live sound
> Having a disconnect there is a must, not only for his gear, but maybe
> someone would want to bring there own, and they could if there was
> room. Then they'd have what they need like you said, a disconnect and
> lights.
>
are we reading the same OP posting?
you are off on some "House of blues" style rant when I read the guy is
looking for a couple of boxes to make some noise
George
>
George Gleason
> I've had zero jobs that required the humping of gear up a flight of
> stairs.
>
>>
I'd suggest you don't try to work at the Troy Savings Bank Music Hall
you have to block and tackle your gear up ancient hemp lines 3 stories up
the outside of the building
George
Robert
> are you are off on some "House of blues" style rant when I read the guy is
> looking for a couple of boxes to make some noise
> George
>>
I don't know where the OP is based but in the UK no band playing the type of
venue that he describes would bring a sound engineer.
The mixer would also need to be on the stage. Putting one at a FOH position
in some sort of "booth" would be useless. Seen this a few times.
I play venues like this occasionally. I would be happy with poweramps,
wedges and FOH speakers. I'd plug my own desk into that. Saves loading and
you don't have to use am unfamiliar mixer.
Nexo would be nice but reality says Behringer would be good enough.
Robert
BC
> BC wrote:
> > Hi
> > I'm putting together a live-music booking proposal for a
> > restaurant that is going to be using an underused bar/lounge
> > area upstairs for live music.
>
> If you are putting together a proposal for a *business* and have to
> come here for advice... I'd say rethink your day job.
Chill, dude...it's not really a "business" per se -- it's
just taking advantage of an opportunity: a friend tells me
about a place wanting to offer live music, I know a lot
of musicians, there are never enough good venues, so....
The sound system was just a side issue. They didn't have
a sound system and are only experimenting with the live
music format, so they had no intention of putting in an
expensive system at this point. The DJ's they were using
so far have been bringing their own PA equipment and
apparently that level of equipment has been working out
fine soundwise for the space. So my recommending to them
to get their own similar PA system was a logical thing to
suggest, and I was only thinking of how to make it easier
for the musicians. And it was only after discussing how
inexpensive that sort of DJ-level equipment runs did
they even consider putting in any sort of sound system.
This is all really just foot-in-the-door stuff.
I know what I've seen get used around town, but there are
an awful lot of equipment choices, and while I *do* know
an awful lot about sound and acoustics, portable PA systems
are a different matter -- it's like buying a big boom box
rather than putting together a component system. I'm not
above asking people for their opinions and dropping an
inquiry here about PA systems seemed like a logical thing
to do. If the live music thing brings in enough extra
business, then maybe they will look into getting a more
serious system, some stage lighting, and maybe even make
it into a real lounge. The owners, though, are into food
and not music and they're not going to spend a lot of
money unless they are sure it helps their primary
business.
I do have a day job and this music venue stuff is really
strictly for fun -- I love live music and I'm friends
with a lot of musicians. I just see it as a opportunity
to help the local music scene and I don't expect to get
a dime for my efforts, however time consuming. No more,
no less.
And I do really appreciate all the advice and tips I've
gotten so quickly, especially in regards to the Behringer
equipment, which nobody I know uses and which I had been
curious about.
So don't be giving your alt.audio.pro.live-sound compadres
grief for just being helpful, decent fellows. It doesn't
always have to be about "business."
-BC
Gene Sweeny
>
>
> there are a few clubs that can make a house system work
> but none without a house tech
> if you leave it to the musos you might as well not bother
How hard is it to run an installed system? Not hard. Plug in mics,
DI's, turn amps on, "check, check, we good? 1.. 2.. 3.. 4.." done. My
grandmother could handle that.
> most bands don't have foh guys, even most mid level touring bands show up
> without engineers
> this is just wishful thinking on your part
I said he should pay someone to run it for cases such as these.
>
> anything but the most in demand bands will play on any POS you throw at
> them, they are there to get paid
> Even touring with a band and advancing shows for our 18 input 5 monitor
> mix rider we'd still show up and find two mackie powered heads
> and we would make it work because there was a show to do
If this is the case, why do the people in this forum insist on only
recommending a giga-dollars worth of equipment or none at all?
> > If the band is small, or has no engineer they might run sound from
> > stage. This is easily supported by having a small mixer on stage as
> > well that can send a mix to the FOH board for the mains. It's
> > versitle, and would support a monitor engineer as well for larger
> > bands.
> >
> >> or they could just avoid failure all together by giving the bands
> >> what they need to have to use the room
> >>
> >> a disconnect and some lights
> >
> > Mind you, I'm not saying to NOT give a disconnect and lights. I'm
> > just saying that if he hires a professional, and does it right, he may
> > attract a higher pedigree of artist and it could be good for business.
>
>
> of course this could be true
> but this is NOT what I got from reading his post
> I got
> we have a little club and could get bands to play cheaper if we had a
> system like "joes" does
> well "Joes" has two eons and a yamaha MG series mixer, and a dozen Jimmy
> Buffet wanna be's are ok with it
> I did not read anything in his post that indicated a commitment to pro
> live sound
Exactly... your advice should have been "find the yellow pages."
>
> > Having a disconnect there is a must, not only for his gear, but maybe
> > someone would want to bring there own, and they could if there was
> > room. Then they'd have what they need like you said, a disconnect and
> > lights.
> >
>
> are we reading the same OP posting?
>
> you are off on some "House of blues" style rant when I read the guy is
> looking for a couple of boxes to make some noise
If this is the case... why does he need a 100A disconnect. Crappy bar
band PAs always consist of a powered mixer/power head/ or a CS800.
They are never power hogs. You can run a powered mixer, speakers,
guitar amps and a couple of cans off one 20A circuit.
George Gleason
> George Gleason wrote:
>>
>>
>> there are a few clubs that can make a house system work
>> but none without a house tech
>> if you leave it to the musos you might as well not bother
>
> How hard is it to run an installed system? Not hard. Plug in mics,
> DI's, turn amps on, "check, check, we good? 1.. 2.. 3.. 4.." done. My
> grandmother could handle that.
is your grandmother available to hire as a tech?
>
>> most bands don't have foh guys, even most mid level touring bands
>> show up without engineers
>> this is just wishful thinking on your part
>
> I said he should pay someone to run it for cases such as these.
this is the COMMITMENT to a house guy I spoke of as the VAST majority of
bands will not have a engineer
>
>>
>> anything but the most in demand bands will play on any POS you throw
>> at them, they are there to get paid
>> Even touring with a band and advancing shows for our 18 input 5
>> monitor mix rider we'd still show up and find two mackie powered
>> heads and we would make it work because there was a show to do
>
> If this is the case, why do the people in this forum insist on only
> recommending a giga-dollars worth of equipment or none at all?
the recomendation are keyed to the question
if someone asks what is the best that is one answer
if some one asks what is the best for xxxx$ that is a diffrent answer
if someone asks what is the cheapest POS that will make fart noises that
is still another answer
>
>> > If the band is small, or has no engineer they might run sound from
>> > stage. This is easily supported by having a small mixer on stage
>> > as well that can send a mix to the FOH board for the mains. It's
>> > versitle, and would support a monitor engineer as well for larger
>> > bands.
>> >
>> >> or they could just avoid failure all together by giving the bands
>> >> what they need to have to use the room
>> >>
>> >> a disconnect and some lights
>> >
>> > Mind you, I'm not saying to NOT give a disconnect and lights. I'm
>> > just saying that if he hires a professional, and does it right, he
>> > may attract a higher pedigree of artist and it could be good for
>> > business.
>>
>>
>> of course this could be true
>> but this is NOT what I got from reading his post
>> I got
>> we have a little club and could get bands to play cheaper if we had a
>> system like "joes" does
>> well "Joes" has two eons and a yamaha MG series mixer, and a dozen
>> Jimmy Buffet wanna be's are ok with it
>> I did not read anything in his post that indicated a commitment to
>> pro live sound
>
> Exactly... your advice should have been "find the yellow pages."
he would have to to hire the electrician to put in the disconnect
and wire the lights
but the yellow pages he would need are not under"audio"
they would be under "electrical contractors"
>
>>
>> > Having a disconnect there is a must, not only for his gear, but
>> > maybe someone would want to bring there own, and they could if
>> > there was room. Then they'd have what they need like you said, a
>> > disconnect and lights.
>> >
>>
>> are we reading the same OP posting?
>>
>> you are off on some "House of blues" style rant when I read the guy
>> is looking for a couple of boxes to make some noise
>
> If this is the case... why does he need a 100A disconnect. Crappy bar
> band PAs always consist of a powered mixer/power head/ or a CS800.
> They are never power hogs. You can run a powered mixer, speakers,
> guitar amps and a couple of cans off one 20A circuit.
because it is not really much more expensive to put in a useable amout of
power than a single 20 amp branch
and this WOULD allow him to use the space for anything that comes up
and no it doesn't have to be 100 amp
50 most likely would be fine
George
>
>
Chad Wahls
>
> Put in a nice 100 amp sub panel at the stage, a few lights, then and let
> the bands bring their own
Amen! I would to not have to schlep fill lighting and a distro, that would
make my day! Honestly I PREFER to use my PA over a house PA. I KNOW mine
works and how it's going to sound. It was designed around the band so it's
just right!
Chad
Phildo
<infini...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126844884.6...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Most pro audio guys that I have come in contact with don't like
> Behringer.
That's because Behringer used to have a bad rep and people tend to stick
with what they know and don't move with the times.
>George and Phildo seem to like Behringer (as well as other
> manufactures) alot and they post alot of information in here.
Not just the two of us though. Plenty of other people post good things about
Behringer and with good reason.
> Continue
> to do research as you are doing.
And you will hear exactly the same thing again and again by people who have
realised how good the Behringer stuff is for the price and how much the QC
has improved in the last couple of years.
>Behringer is known to have had a poor
> track record in the past but supposedly the quality has improved.
Nothing "supposedly" about it.
Phildo
TimPerry
in other words you really have to hemp to get the job done?
Todd H.
Yup, that looks good.
I disagree that it'll only do acoustic acts as I'm in a very electric
band and in small spaces, bringing subs and putting drums/bass through
the PA for the sake of getting that "big sound" is just punishing to
the customers.
These systems also match the setup of house systems of two of the more
popular, smaller joints that are known for live music around here that
happen to have house sound.
Now if we're talking a place that hosts metal or hard rock and the
patrons want/need to feel the kick drum in their chests, yes, these
are entirely inadequate, and budget is needed for a rack of amps and a
lot of subs.
Another toy I'd suggest in teh system is a Feedback Destroyer Pro.
Worth its weight in gold, IMO, when you have folks who aren't manning
the console or a different operator every night.
Best Regards,
--
/"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H
\ / | http://www.toddh.net/
X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/
/ \ http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."
TimPerry
rent the equipment (if you can find a reasonable rate). if the entertainment
doesn't work out just return it. the exact flavors of equipment will have
to be selected from whatever is available at that time in rental stock.
you might be able to work out a deal with a buyout after one years or
complete ownership after a fixed amount of time. in the meantime any piece
that fails gets replaced no charge.
GregS
>George Gleason wrote:
>>
>>
>> there are a few clubs that can make a house system work
>> but none without a house tech
>> if you leave it to the musos you might as well not bother
>
>How hard is it to run an installed system? Not hard. Plug in mics,
>DI's, turn amps on, "check, check, we good? 1.. 2.. 3.. 4.." done. My
>grandmother could handle that.
My personal view. Install a relatively small and simple vocals system.
That all. or hire a full time engineer and get lots of equipment.
Choise A or B depending on money.
greg
George Gleason
Phildo
"Steve White" <st...@sjNOSPAMTAVERYMUCHwhite.plus.com> wrote in message
news:4329f516$0$22907$ed26...@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net...
> I recall one particular occasion where the band who used the gear before
> us had disassembled the whole kit caboodle - EQ, crossover, amps etc.
Oh god, I feel your pain. Black Pig in Salisbury. Turned up to find the
dance event the night before had literally ripped out the house rig, leaving
bare ends on cables, speakons still in the backs of the speakers, nothing
labelled etc. House engineer turned up (looking very hung over), said "I
don't get paid for this shit" and walked out. I ended up repairing the whole
rig, getting it sounding better than it ever had and doing a great show on
the promise that I would get paid extra by the venue on top of what the band
were paying me for getting the night happening. Bloody venue owner ended up
paying the house engineer who had walked out because he didn't want to lose
him (why I don't know as he was clueless). Will never work that place again.
Phildo
Steve White
news:3p0aa1F...@individual.net...
> Oh god, I feel your pain. Black Pig in Salisbury. Turned up to find the
> dance event the night before had literally ripped out the house rig,
> leaving bare ends on cables, speakons still in the backs of the speakers,
> nothing labelled etc. House engineer turned up (looking very hung over),
> said "I don't get paid for this shit" and walked out. I ended up repairing
> the whole rig, getting it sounding better than it ever had and doing a
> great show on the promise that I would get paid extra by the venue on top
> of what the band were paying me for getting the night happening. Bloody
> venue owner ended up paying the house engineer who had walked out because
> he didn't want to lose him (why I don't know as he was clueless). Will
> never work that place again.
Hmmm, I'd have been tempted to offer to rip it all back out again before
leaving!
Never mind, you never learn quite so quickly as when the pressure is really
on. The problem, regards the OP, is that in this situation, even with
someone who is trying to be responsible about the whole thing, there's a
serious risk of a genuine mistake which could damage the gear.
Cheers,
Steve W
infini...@yahoo.com
>> manufactures) alot and they post alot of information in here.
>Not just the two of us though. Plenty of other people post good things about
>Behringer and with good reason.
Plenty of people wouldn't touch it with a 20 foot pole even with Phil
Allison strapped on the edge. However, the same is true for other
manufactures as well.
Phildo
<infini...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126889616.9...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>>>George and Phildo seem to like Behringer (as well as other
>>> manufactures) alot and they post alot of information in here.
>
>>Not just the two of us though. Plenty of other people post good things
>>about
>>Behringer and with good reason.
>
> Plenty of people wouldn't touch it with a 20 foot pole even with Phil
> Allison strapped on the edge.
Their loss. If they choose to be luddites and not move with the times then
more fool them. It just means those that have discovered how good the gear
is can get good results and undercut the luddites.
> However, the same is true for other
> manufactures as well.
True. I won't touch a couple of brands, Phonic and Sony being two that
spring to mind.
Phildo
Sl...@sarasotaslim.com
I've been a full time musician for about 30 years. The best way to be
in the game is to own the football. I've owned a football (PA) from
the very beginning - way back when a powered Peavey 7 channel board was
GOOD! I used homemade EV cabs and slowly learned what worked and what
didn't. It sounds as if you need the modern equivalent of that first
Peavey I had. I'm a Mackie kinda guy - it's the Peavey of today and
YES I can hear a difference between the Mackie and the Behringer. The
Behringer's EQ doesn't remove the feedback as well as the Mackie
equivalent. After reading what you seem to want and are able to
squeeze out of the food sellers - let me suggest... A small Mackie CFX
mixer and a pair of Powered Mackie 450's on stands. You can always add
the Mackie 1500 subs later and still have a nice small rig that is easy
to use (from stage). (I also have a few Behringer products and like
them but prefer the sound of the Mackie speakers and boards) As for
the chill department - read my post and some of the others here (I'm
not paranoid - they're just out to get me!)...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.audio.pro.live-sound/browse_frm/thread/4d719ee5829b4ab9/e8d7ffd9474dca87?hl=en#e8d7ffd9474dca87
and remember that you are a rare jewel that musicians everywhere need
more of.
BC
> I disagree that it'll only do acoustic acts as I'm in a
> very electric band and in small spaces, bringing subs
> and putting drums/bass through the PA for the sake
> of getting that "big sound" is just punishing to the
> customers.
That's my feeling too. There's this pervasive Spinal
Tap mentality when it comes to sound reinforcement
in clubs that seems to defeat the entire purpose of
bothering with expensive, good equipment. Some
might as well use a $60 mixer, $15 microphones,
and whatever big old amps and speakers they can
find on Craigslist for what they get as an end result.
> These systems also match the setup of house systems
> of two of the more popular, smaller joints that are known
> for live music around here that happen to have house sound.
I know of one small local club with a freestanding PA
system that's been serving them for a while. Some
other small clubs have ancient, tired Klipsch's
hanging up and well-worn mixers and they usually
sound too boomy and mid-rangey by comparison.
> Now if we're talking a place that hosts metal or hard
> rock and the patrons want/need to feel the kick drum
> in their chests, yes, these are entirely inadequate, and
> budget is needed for a rack of amps and a lot of subs.
Well, that's not going to happen anytime soon, if ever,
at this place. Although I always thought it would be fun
sometime to set up a Sub-Zero-size speaker system
with matching amps..
> Another toy I'd suggest in teh system is a Feedback
> Destroyer Pro.Worth its weight in gold, IMO, when
> you have folks who aren't manning the console or a
> different operator every night.
That actually looks pretty cool and the price is right.
> Best Regards,
Likewise and thanks.
-BC
TimPerry
> more of.
>
I remember the days when the promoters name was a selling point for
tickets... when you bought the ticket you knew that the show was going to
happen because (insert name here) was producing it.
BC
I was initially looking into Mackie stuff after I went
beyond the obvious JBL systems. I see Mackie stuff all
over, unlike Behringer. But a Mackie 450/CFX system would
be about 2X a roughly similar Behringer. While the Mackie
seems to be a beefier, more solid system, 2X is 2X. And
since there is no traveling, sturdiness is not so much
an issue. If there was a firm $2K budget, maybe, but a
foot in a door is a foot in a door....
But thanks for taking the time.
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.audio.pro.live-sound/browse_frm/thread/4d719ee5829b4ab9/e8d7ffd9474dca87?hl=en#e8d7ffd9474dca87
> and remember that you are a rare jewel that musicians everywhere need
> more of.
Thanks again, but I think I'm mostly just engaging an
interest and taking on a fun project. I like helping out
musicians, especially the more struggling ones. Everyone
deserves at least one shot.
-BC
The Beemer
"Sidhu" <nitin...@indiatimes.com> wrote in message
news:1126827732.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> Well, maybe not then I guess. Either the band know their stuff (rarely
> a case) or they let an engineer who knows his stuff (also a rare case
> here) manage the sound.
Surely, someone in India knows what they are doing, what with all the
customer support personnel there...........
DB
Joe Kesselman
For some years, I ran sound for an all-volunteer (except for the
performing talent) coffeehouse -- see http://walkaboutclearwater.org --
as a semi-trained volunteer myself. We only ran one show a month, so
that wasn't an unreasonable amount of commitment, especially given that
this was a fundraising and educational outreach.
Our performers were mostly folkie in flavor, and very few of them had
their own sound tech. (Moxie Fruvous was the most significant exception
I can recall.)
The talent sent us technical riders (which in many cases asked for more
than they actually needed); we negotiated with them over whether what we
actually had would be adequate, and borrowed/rented additional equipment
on the uncommon occasions when it wasn't. The riders often asked for a
professional sound engineer; we generally negotiated that away too.
Hardware... let's see. It changed over time, but when I left we were
still mostly using the canonical SM57/58 or their Beta variants as our
primary microphones, plus a few small electret mikes when we wanted to
get the overall sound of a chorus. Snake to a 24-channel Mackie board at
the back of the room. Basic digital reverb taking one of the aux
channels, run dry and returned to the board at a very low level; classic
"vocal talent enhancer" application. Board outs ran through a Behringer
Ultracurve, for room EQ and feedback control; from there, back down the
snake to amps by the stage (I don't remember brands offhand).
Our main speakers were a semi-homebrew pair (heavily altered
voice-of-the-theater boxes), capable of being run either tri-amped or
via passive crossovers. We had four monitors available (two of which
were actually our chorus's mains in cradles to hold them at an angle);
typically we only had to run one or two monitor mixes. Sometimes we also
needed to provide a vocals-only mix for a sign interpreter; the
interpreter we worked with most often (the incomparable Jody Gill)
generally brought her own hotspot powered monitor for that purpose.
Tripod-style mike stands with booms, of course. Main speakers were flown
into the rafters; if you don't want to deal with that you probably want
stands for those too.
Forgot to mention: Heavy extension cords. Powering the whole system off
a single wall outlet was a LOT easier than wrestling with the ground
loops that arose when the amps were powered from the stage end of the
room. (Luckily, performers' on-stage equipment rarely caused trouble in
that regard.)
Nothing highly sophisticated. But y'know, it didn't have to be. It was
good enough that everyone in the audience could clearly and reasonably
accurately hear what was happening on stage, especially since our
philosophy was that this was the goal -- sound reinforcement (making up
for room limitations and for the fact that not everyone can get a
front-row seat) rather than rock-style amplification where the sound
system becomes part of the performance.
And most folkies have had so much experience with completely inadequate
church-basement venues, where the sound system consists of someone's
home stereo with a pair of radio-shack mikes fed through their cassette
recorder's preamps, that they tended to be quite happy with what we
could give them and willing to work with us... and most seemed pretty
pleased with the results.
So: I tend to agree with folks who are advising you not to massively
overkill the problem initially. Look for the sweet spot that gives you
what you initially need and the best bang for the buck. Remember that
you can rent or buy more stuff later if you need it.
BUT: Assume that the venue is going to have to provide someone to set it
up and run it all, unless the band tells you they have their own sound
guy... and even then you probably want to assist and supervise; not only
does that help keep gear (and audience ears) from being trashed, it's a
chance to learn how someone else approaches the task.
And don't forget to plan for where stuff gets stored between gigs... and
who's responsible for hauling it out and putting it away again.
Phildo
"Todd H." <bmi...@toddh.net> wrote in message
news:84u0glf...@ripco.com...
> Another toy I'd suggest in teh system is a Feedback Destroyer Pro.
> Worth its weight in gold, IMO, when you have folks who aren't manning
> the console or a different operator every night.
Only good if used to find feedback frequencies then locked down. Don't use
it in seek mode.
Phildo
Phildo
"Gene Sweeny" <goo1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1126877622.7...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I absolutely would not take a job where I had to haul 4000 lbs of gear
> up a flight of steps. Ain't happening. If they don't have a service
> elevator, sorry, I ain't doing it.
You might not but there are a lot of people out there who would and they'd
be happy of the work.
Phildo
Robert McTigue
left the bus when I saw the 2ed truck leave.
Phildo
"Robert McTigue" <robert...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:WJGdnVNQvYw...@comcast.com...
> Phildo wrote:
> The barrow lands in glasglow ... 4 flights. OUCH... 2 simi's of gear. I
> left the bus when I saw the 2ed truck leave.
Yep, still there AFAIK. I remember drop-testing amps in front of the rep at
Brit Row and seeing the look of horror on his face. I had to explain to him
that if the amp couldn't take a little knock like that it would never
survive a get-in at Barrowlands.
Phildo