The Donahue theory
claviger
riding in Security Car 679X in response to shots fired at the Presidential
Limousine. Of those witnesses 7 were SS Agents and 6 were civilians.
__________
SS Agents:
Lawson
Roberts
McIntyre
Hickey
Bennett
Youndblood
Kivett
__________
Civilians:
S M Holland
Royce Skelton
Jean Hill
Senator Yarborough
Mayor Cabell
H D Burroughs
Anthony Marsh
Why not Dave Powers and Kenney O'Donnell who were sitting right in front
of him?
Oh, now I remember. The Secret Service told them to keep quiet.
claviger
More likely Attorney General Robert F Kennedy told them to keep quiet.
Grizzlie Antagonist
wrote:
Both were Kennedy men and both would have understood the need to keep
quiet. Jacqueline Kennedy bemoaned the notion that her husband could
have been killed by a "silly little Communist". How much more noxious
to a Kennedy-idolating world would death by accident (friendly fire)
have seemed?
Robert Kennedy scarcely would have needed to "tell" them to do
anything.
<Sigh> I vowed never to talk about the Donahue theory again because
it is painful to talk about. It is the theory that is most consistent
with the facts -- including the very important fact that you allude to
-- but that hardly matters.
No one is open to the Donahue theory. Everyone hates it. Not because
it's patently untrue but because it runs counter to what everyone
wants to believe.
LN'ers hate the Donahue theory because it's not entirely consistent
with the WCR.
CT's hate the Donahue theory because they believe in the Grand Evil
Conspiracy, and the notion of a benign after-the-fact mini-conspiracy
where there are no evildoers -- just a tragic mistake and a clumsy
government coverup -- is abhorrent to them.
But that's often how real-life works.
LN"ers and CT's hate hate hate hate hate hate the Donahue theory. No
one ever wants it introduced it into the conversation. No one ever
thanks the other guy for bringing it up. The return on one's
investment in time in such a discussion is invective, invective, and
more invective.
So I vowed never to bring up the subject ever again. I decided to
wait for posterity to vindicate Howard Donahue -- or to NOT vindicate
him -- whatever the case may be.
And yet...
John Canal
says...
>>> On 4/10/2010 1:09 PM, claviger wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>ard
>>> > riding in Security Car 679X in response to shots fired at the Presid=
>ential
>>> > Limousine. Of those witnesses 7 were SS Agents and 6 were civilians.
>>>
>>> > __________
>>> > SS Agents:
>>> > Lawson
>>> > Roberts
>>> > McIntyre
>>> > Hickey
>>> > Bennett
>>> > Youndblood
>>> > Kivett
>>> > __________
>>> > Civilians:
>>> > S M Holland
>>> > Royce Skelton
>>> > Jean Hill
>>> > Senator Yarborough
>>> > Mayor Cabell
>>> > H D Burroughs
>>>
>nt
>>> of him?
>>>
>>> Oh, now I remember. The Secret Service told them to keep quiet.
>>
>>More likely Attorney General Robert F Kennedy told them to keep quiet.
>
>Both were Kennedy men and both would have understood the need to keep
>quiet.
Jacqueline Kennedy bemoaned the notion that her husband could
>have been killed by a "silly little Communist". How much more noxious
>to a Kennedy-idolating world would death by accident (friendly fire)
>have seemed?
>
>Robert Kennedy scarcely would have needed to "tell" them to do
>anything.
So, let me see if I've got this theory right. Powers and O'Donell saw Hickey's
AR-15 go off resulting in JFK being hit in the back of his head....but keep the
tragic accident hush-hush in anticipation of what RFK, who was in DC....or
others....would want? Then RFK does find out about the accident and makes it
official, i.e. it would be covered up? Is that close?
This is just speculation on my part, but I think the county would rather hear
that friendly fire caused JFK's death as opposed to many ominous theories that
were abound early such as the ones where Soviet Union or Casto were responsible.
And I don't see Powers and/or O'Donnell keeping a lid on such an event....for
one minute, let alone for decades.
><Sigh> I vowed never to talk about the Donahue theory again because
>it is painful to talk about.
Don't fret...it didn't happen. Donahue's theory is totally inconsistent with the
medical evidence, not to mention the ballistics.
>It is the theory that is most consistent
>with the facts -- including the very important fact that you allude to
>-- but that hardly matters.
Really?
>No one is open to the Donahue theory. Everyone hates it. Not because
>it's patently untrue but because it runs counter to what everyone
>wants to believe.
No, because it runs counter to the hard evidence.
>LN'ers hate the Donahue theory because it's not entirely consistent
>with the WCR.
See above.
>CT's hate the Donahue theory because they believe in the Grand Evil
>Conspiracy, and the notion of a benign after-the-fact mini-conspiracy
>where there are no evildoers -- just a tragic mistake and a clumsy
>government coverup -- is abhorrent to them.
>
>But that's often how real-life works.
>
>LN"ers and CT's hate hate hate hate hate hate the Donahue theory. No
>one ever wants it introduced it into the conversation. No one ever
>thanks the other guy for bringing it up. The return on one's
>investment in time in such a discussion is invective, invective, and
>more invective.
>
>So I vowed never to bring up the subject ever again. I decided to
>wait for posterity to vindicate Howard Donahue -- or to NOT vindicate
>him -- whatever the case may be.
>
>And yet...
1. If you plot the trajectory back using Donahue's entry and the agreed upon
exit high in right front of his head (just forward of the coronal suture), it
points back several floors above the roof-lines of the buildings behind the
limo, like the TSBD and Dal-Tex Building. It hardly points in the direction of
the car Hickey was in.
2. There was only one channel-like laceration through his brain reported by the
autopsists, and it began at the tip of the occipial lobe (near the EOP) and
extended to the tip of the frontal lobe. IOW, Hickey's bullet would have entered
in a completely different part of the brain.
3. The two large bullet fragments were found in a location consistent with the
aforementoned channel-like laceration and were ballistically [exclusively]
matched to the ammo LHO used...and not to Hicky's ammo.
4. According to the ARRB forensic experts the X-rays show there was no entry
high in the back of JFK's head.
5. Mantik scanned the AP film with his Densitometer....he found no bullet hole
in the rear of the skull anywhere near where Hickey's bullet woulkd have
entered....Mantik found only cracks/fractures.
6. There was no beveled-in, circular defect found during the autopsy in the rear
of the skull anywhere near where Hickey's bullet would have entered.
Hickey didn't shoot JFK, accidently or on purpose.
John Canal
--
John Canal
jca...@webtv.net
pjsp...@aol.com
time when even CTs like Wecht accepted the WC then Clark Panel theory
on the head wounds, Donahue realized something was wrong, and tried to
develop an alternate solution. To me, he is kinda like Lifton: a well-
intentioned guy who noticed some things that were wrong and tried to
make people aware of it, whose own conclusions just don't pass my
smell test.
I respect him for his efforts, however, and definitely learned more
than a little from reading Mortal Error. Which is more than I can say
about most books...
On Apr 10, 10:56 pm, Grizzlie Antagonist <lloydsofhanf...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On 11 Apr 2010 00:26:16 -0400, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com>
claviger
wrote:
> On 11 Apr 2010 00:26:16 -0400, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com>
Griz,
Yes, everything you say is true. And yet... there's even more evidence
to consider.
bigdog
wrote:
> On 11 Apr 2010 00:26:16 -0400, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't know if hate is the word but I just don't buy the Donahue
theory for the same reason I don't buy any conspiracy theory that has
ever been floated. There is no solid evidence to support it. The only
recovered bullets, the fragmented limosine bullet and CE399, were
positively matched to Oswald's rifle. Few earwitnesses reported
hearing more than three shots and the physical evidence of three spent
shells on the 6th floor indicate those three shots were fired by
Oswald. A shot from Hickey would have been a fourth shot. None of the
occupants of the Secret Service car testified to a shot being fired
from inside the car which requires one to fall back on the CTish
argument that these witnesses were told to keep quiet. It requires one
to believe that the fatal head shot was not fired by the man who was
aiming at it but that it was fired by a man who did not even intend to
fire his weapon and resulted in a one-in-a-million accidental
shooting. Never mind the long odds involved, it seems physical
impossible. If this accidental discharge had been caused by Hickey
losing his balance and falling backward, this would have naturally
pointed the barrel of the weapon upward as it was accidentally
discharged which would have sent the shot harmlessly into the air.
There are so many problems with the Donahue theory that it makes no
sense at all. Like so many CT theories, it requires a force fitting of
the evidence to reach the desired conclusion.
Anthony Marsh
Why can't you just support your fellow WC defenders when they promote a
wacky theory like that? Maybe they'll reciprocate and support yours.
> This is just speculation on my part, but I think the county would rather hear
> that friendly fire caused JFK's death as opposed to many ominous theories that
> were abound early such as the ones where Soviet Union or Casto were responsible.
>
> And I don't see Powers and/or O'Donnell keeping a lid on such an event....for
> one minute, let alone for decades.
>
That's exactly what they did when they told the Secret Service about the
shot from the grassy knoll and were told to keep quiet.
>> <Sigh> I vowed never to talk about the Donahue theory again because
>> it is painful to talk about.
>
> Don't fret...it didn't happen. Donahue's theory is totally inconsistent with the
> medical evidence, not to mention the ballistics.
>
Forget all that nonsense. It is just physically impossible and the
Bronson film shows he never got high enough.
Anthony Marsh
No. The FBI.
The most important thing about Powers and O'Donnell is what they did not
tell the Warren Commission. Here is a passage from Tip O'Neill's Man of
the House (1987 - page 178):
I was never one of the use people who had doubts or suspicions about the
Warren Commission's report on the president's death. But five years
after Jack died, I was having dinner with Kenny O'Donnell and a few
other people at Jimmy's Harborside Restaurant in Boston, and we got to
talking about the assassination.
I was surprised to hear O'Donnell say that he was sure he had heard two
shots that came from behind the fence.
"That's not what you told the Warren Commission," I said.
"You're right," he replied. "I told the FBI what I had heard, but they
said it couldn't have happened that way and that I must have been
imagining things. So I testified the way they wanted me to. I just
didn't want to stir up any more pain and trouble for the family."
"I can't believe it," I said. "I wouldn't have done that in a million
years. I would have told the truth."
"Tip, you have to understand. The family-everybody wanted this thing
behind them."
Dave Powers was with us at dinner that night, and his recollection of
the shots was the same as O'Donnell's. Kenny O'Donnell is no longer
alive, but during the writing of this book I checked with Dave Powers.
As they say in the news business, he stands by his story.
And so there will always be some skepticism in my mind about the cause
of Jack's death. I used to think that the only people who doubted the
conclusions of the Warren Commission were crackpots. Now, however, I'm
not so sure.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***I think there are a few problems with the Donahue theory, which begin
with the fact that Bill Newman would have been rather close to the rifle
when it would have gone off, as would Jean Hill and her friend, on the
opposite side of the street.
In the Altgens photo, agent Hickey was facing to the rear. Hickey had
heard the report as coming from the rear. If Hickey had turned to grab
the rifle, prior to the head shot, he would have likely have grabbed it
off the floor, by the stock, with his left hand, then wheeled back around
to face where he thought the report had come from, at which time his right
hand would have likely finally come in contact with the hand grip,
allowing him to release the safety.
***Ron Judge
Grizzlie Antagonist
wrote:
John Canal, one of the unique things about a Usenet bulletin board...
1) with a limited number of participants
2) who tend to participate very frequently
3) with virtually all of whom are committed -- passionately -- to one
point of view or another
4) about a historical matter
5) in which very little, if any, significant new information ever
comes to light...
....one of the unique things about such a forum is that there is rarely
anything new under the sun. It has all been said before. It has all
been argued before. And no one ever changed his/her mind. It was not
in the cards that anyone ever would.
You and I have had some discussion about this before, and I actually
do commend you for your learning and insight. To some extent
(emphasis on the word "some"), your arguments actually are based more
on facts and empiricism than are anyone else's, and again, I do
commend you for that.
I suspect that everything that you have just set forth and that I said
in response to it and that you said in response to THAT etc. was
probably covered in these two threads.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_frm/thread/96bb839b9e33a97b/72ed13219af6f9d0?hl=en&q
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_frm/thread/232e613e16508149/b7c65469944bacd8?hl=en&q
Maybe there were other threads, but these are the two that I found.
For the reaons that I mentioned earlier, I am disinclined to get into
any lengthy discussion about this again. I responded on this occasion
only because claviger brought up the issue.
So I commend these earlier contributions to your reading. I commend
myself for having found a way to use the verb "commend" five times.
John Canal
says...
BOTTOM POST
Grizzlie,
Commendable comments, although this comment of yours needs to be
updated...your suspicions are not quite spot on:
<QUOTE ON>
I suspect that everything that you have just set forth and that I said in
response to it and that you said in response to THAT etc. was probably
covered in these two threads.
<QUOTE OFF>
What was't included in those previous threads and is extremely germane is
the fact that not one of the three ARRB forensic experts saw any
indication whatsoever on the X-rays of a entry high in the back of JFK's
skull.
IMO, This is important information because, unlike those consulting for
the Clark/Rockefeller/HSCA investigations, the ARRB experts had "no horse
in any race". IOW, while many, if not most, of the aforementioned experts
worked together in the same city, or even office, and/or wrote books
together, to the best of my knowledge there were no such associations
among the experts for the ARRB.
Again, your post was otherwise commendable....and, BTW, thank you for the
kind comments.
Regards
--
John Canal
jca...@webtv.net
claviger
If you notice I included Jean Hill in the list of eyewitnesses. Hill
wanted desperately to be a relevant witness to this case, to the point she
convinced herself she saw things she didn't see and did things she didn't
do, and her story kept evolving as time passed. Her family explained how
much she enjoyed the media attention and how important it was to maintain
ongoing celebrity status. The irony is she could have, and should have,
become the star witness she longed to be. She was in position to see what
happened and probably did, but didn't understand what she had seen. All
the sights and sounds came and went so sudden and so fast it was hard for
the brain to manage all this information, to sort and categorize
everything taken in by the senses. I think she did see what happened,
maybe within the field of her peripheral vision, but did not fully
interpret what it meant. She may have been the only witness to see and
hear what actually happened, because she was looking at something going on
behind the Limousine as it passed by.
As for Bill Newman he and his family were focussed on the Presidential
Limousine and experienced the horror and shock of seeing the head wound up
close. Bill Newman's testimony disintegrated on the witness stand. Again
the human brain unprepared for such an event cannot always classify
everything that we, as students of this case, can do by watching the
silent Zapruder film.
Anthony Marsh
One of the unique things about such a forum is that it allows researchers
to post things that people have never seen before. New information, new
documents. Now if THIS were a real newsgroup we could place documents
inline so that you could read them as part of the messages.
claviger
We all need to keep in mind Howard Donahue was the only professional
ballistic expert to review this case and study it for a decade before
writing a book about it. Dr. Lattimer did some excellent research but he
was a urologist, not a practicing ballistic expert who studied a variety
of shooting incidents as Donahue had done. Donahue was for real, not a
phony like Groden, et al. Many books have been written by people with no
ballistic experience who don't believe a high velocity fully jacketed
bullet can penetrate two human beings. I've yet to talk to any experienced
rifleman who has a problem with the SBT.
One thing I find strange is all the witnesses who saw the AR-15 in Dealey
Plaza, but no mention of that by the WC who ignored it completely, as did
the HSCA. It took the book "Mortal Error" to bring it to public attention.
I even found a couple of witnesses Donahue didn't know about. So it is an
indisputable fact there were at least two rifles in play during the
motorcade at the time of the shooting.
One more rifle was supposedly on top of the Dallas County Records building
in possession of a deputy sheriff lookout. One book author claims he
actually fired a shot at LHO in the 6th floor window. No corroboration as
to that contention. So now there were 3 rifles in use during the
motorcade.
Any competent ballistic expert would approach this situation objectively
with no preconceived notions and let the facts speak for themselves. That
is exactly what Donahue did and he was perplexed by the results. His
trajectory analysis was the first clue there might be a problem. The
terminal ballistic wound in the head was another. Then he was told some
anecdotal stories that caused him to rethink the whole case.
To tell the truth, some days I think LHO did it all by himself and other
days I think Donahue figured out what really happened. I'm convinced LHO
could have done all the shooting, so I have no problem with the WCR
conclusion. I do have a problem with the HSCA final conclusion. However,
if there is any proof of a second shooter then I think the Donahue theory
is the most likely solution.
I was in high school when the assassination happened, and was in complete
disbelief this could happen in modern America. That weekend I read an
article where a reporter interviewed some of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza
who said one of the bodyguards shot the President. I thought that was one
of the dumbest things I ever heard and those witnesses must be complete
idiots. It never occurred to me it could have been an accident. Besides,
they caught LHO so obviously those silly witnesses were wrong.
Years later I ran across Mortal Error in a bookstore and was stunned by
the conclusion. I remembered those "silly" witnesses and had to rethink
the whole event. By the way, I was never able to find that article. We had
three local newspapers at the time and I could not find it in any of them.
My mother took Life, Look, and the Saturday Evening Post. It could have
been in one of those Sunday supplements like Parade. If anyone comes
across this article one day I would appreciate hearing about it.
The reality is accidental shootings are just one more hazard law
enforcement must deal with in a dangerous profession. Soldiers are well
aware of friendly fire hazards in their military duty. Many times an
accidental shooting would be hard to reproduce as an intentional firing
exercise. Truth is stranger than fiction and some things can be done by
accident that no one could do if they tried. Donahue makes a compelling
case that is exactly what happened. He never for one minute thought the
bodyguard did it on purpose.
Anthony Marsh
> Griz,
>
> We all need to keep in mind Howard Donahue was the only professional
> ballistic expert to review this case and study it for a decade before
Wrong. Howard Donahue was not a professional ballistics expert.
> writing a book about it. Dr. Lattimer did some excellent research but he
> was a urologist, not a practicing ballistic expert who studied a variety
> of shooting incidents as Donahue had done. Donahue was for real, not a
Yeah, a real idiot.
> phony like Groden, et al. Many books have been written by people with no
> ballistic experience who don't believe a high velocity fully jacketed
> bullet can penetrate two human beings. I've yet to talk to any experienced
> rifleman who has a problem with the SBT.
>
More nonsense. No one said a FMJ can not penetrate two human beings. The
doubt is that CE 399 caused ALL those specific wounds and came out
looking so good, when you compare it to test shots.
> One thing I find strange is all the witnesses who saw the AR-15 in Dealey
> Plaza, but no mention of that by the WC who ignored it completely, as did
> the HSCA. It took the book "Mortal Error" to bring it to public attention.
Because it is a stupid theory. The WC also did not bring out the aliens
did it theory.
claviger
SSA HICKEY
Just prior to the shooting the Presidential car turned left at the
intersection and started down an incline toward an underpass followed
by 679X. After a very short distance I heard a loud report which
sounded like a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right and
rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked to
my right and rear in an attempt to identify it.
The motorcade then left the airport and proceeded along the parade
route. Just prior to the shooting the Presidential car turned left at
the intersection and started down an incline toward an underpass
followed by 679X. After a very short distance I heard a loud report
which sounded like a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right
and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked
to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it. Nothing caught my
attention except people shouting and cheering. A disturbance in 679X
caused me to look forward toward the President's car. Perhaps 2 or 3
seconds elapsed from the time I looked to the rear and then looked at
the President. He was slumped forward and to his left, and was
straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and
looked.
At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I
thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in
sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that
there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked
to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his
head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because
the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't
seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit
his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall
forward and to his left again. - Possibly four or five seconds elapsed
from the time of the first report and the last.
SSA McINTYRE
Most, if not all the agents in the follow-up car had drawn their
weapons and agent Hickey was handling the AR-15. None of us could
determine the origin of the shots, and no shots were fired by any
agent.
SENATOR YARBOROUGH
After the shooting, one of the Secret Service men sitting down in the
car in front of us pulled out an automatic rifle or weapon and looked
backward.
SSA KIVETT
Once we left the area, I could see all three cars--the President's car
(I could not see any principal party and could only see Clint Hill on
the back of the car. The follow-up car, with some agent holding the
AR-15 pointed in the air--
SSA ROBERTS
I turned around a couple times, just after the shooting and saw that
some of the Special Agents had their guns drawn, I know I drew mine,
and saw SA Hickey in rear seat with the AR-15, and asked him to be
careful with it.
SSA YOUNGBLOOD
I noticed that the movements in the Presidential car were very
abnormal and, at practically the same time, the movements in the
Presidential follow-up car were abnormal. - - - During this time, I
heard two more explosion noises and observed SA Hickey in the
Presidential follow-up car poised on the car with the AR-15 rifle
looking toward the buildings.
MAYOR CABELL
We could tell, of course, there was confusion in the presidential car--
activity. The Secret Service men ran to that car. From out of nowhere
appeared one Secret Service man with a submachine gun. His attention
seemed to be focused up toward the building.
JEAN HILL
I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back but everything
was such a blur and Mary was pulling on my leg saying "Get down thery
[sic] are shooting"
SSA BENNETT
At this point I heard what_sounded like a fire-cracker. I immediately
looked from the right/crowd/physical area/and looked towards the
President who was seated in the right rear seat of his limousine open
convertible. At the moment I looked at the back of the President I
heard another fire-cracker noise and saw the shot hit the President
about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed
immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head. I
immediately hollered "he's hit'' and reached for the AR-15 located on
the floor of the rear seat. Special Agent Hickey had already picked-up
the AR-I5. We peered towards the rear and particularly the right side
of the area. I had drawn my revolver when I saw S/A Hickey had the
AR15. I was unable to see anything or one that could have fired the
shots. The President's car immediately kicked into high gear and the
follow-up car followed.
HENRY D BURROUGHS
Looking across the park, in the far distance, I spotted the Queen Mary
(the Secret Service follow-up car). An agent was standing and
displaying an automatic rifle. Very unusual; I had never seen them
display weopons before. That's when we knew for sure that something
very serious had occurred.
SSA LAWSON
As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud,
sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like
gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles
running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car
with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone.
S M HOLLAND
After the first shot the Secret Service man raised up in the seat with
a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat.
claviger
cars:
DPD BOBBY HARGIS
Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me.
ROYCE SKELTON
Mr. BALL. Where did it seem to you that the sound came from, what
direction?
Mr. SKELTON. Towards the President's car.
Mr. BALL. From the President's car?
Mr. SKELTON. Right around the motorcycles and all that--I couldn't
distinguish because it was too far away.
AUSTIN MILLER
Mr. BELIN - Where did the shots sound like they came from?
Mr. MILLER - Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would
say from right there in the car. Would be to my left, the way I was
looking at him toward that incline.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***The reason i mentioned Bill and Jean was that they would have been mere
yards from an AR-15 going off in the Secret Service car, thus i think the
sound would have been distinctly different and louder than from the 6th
floor window.
Jean Hill's story changed significantly as time passed by- a flash and a
puff of smoke, after the badgeman image was noticed in the Moorman photo.
I was at the 40th anniversary in 2003, and there was an air of celebrity.
Mr. Tague had a new book, the Babushka Lady sang, Billie Sol Estes brought
the wreath, Jesse Ventura was the guest speaker, and Ed Hoffman was
present as well.
Also present were two other men which said they were standing near the
Stemmons sign when the shots were fired. Doubt has been cast on them.
***Ron Judge
claviger
Must of been one heck of a conference. The sad irony of Jean Hill is
she didn't believe her own eyes! Instead she was susceptible to the
power of suggestion by various books and got swept up in all the
theories. She convinced herself she MUST have seen the Man on the
Grassy Knoll, while at the same time talked herself out of believing
she actually saw a man in the follow-up car fire his weapon.
claviger
> > Griz,
> > We all need to keep in mind Howard Donahue was the only professional
> > ballistic expert to review this case and study it for a decade before
> Wrong. Howard Donahue was not a professional ballistics expert.
I should thank you for making this silly comment. It was my oversight
to not provide Howard Donahue’s outstanding resumé, and credentials as
a recognized firearms expert which I shall now post.
> > writing a book about it. Dr. Lattimer did some excellent research but he
> > was a urologist, not a practicing ballistic expert who studied a variety
> > of shooting incidents as Donahue had done. Donahue was for real, not a
> Yeah, a real idiot.
Or a real genius.
> > phony like Groden, et al. Many books have been written by people with no
> > ballistic experience who don't believe a high velocity fully jacketed
> > bullet can penetrate two human beings. I've yet to talk to any experienced
> > rifleman who has a problem with the SBT.
> More nonsense. No one said a FMJ can not penetrate two human beings. The
> doubt is that CE 399 caused ALL those specific wounds and came out
> looking so good, when you compare it to test shots.
"This bullet {a 6.5mm Carcano missile like CE399} can penetrate four
feet of solid wood or three pine telephone poles side by side and come
out looking completely undeformed." -- J.K. Lattimer; Page 277
> > One thing I find strange is all the witnesses who saw the AR-15 in Dealey
> > Plaza, but no mention of that by the WC who ignored it completely, as did
> > the HSCA. It took the book "Mortal Error" to bring it to public attention.
> Because it is a stupid theory. The WC also did not bring out the aliens did it theory.
I thought the alien theory was your idea, where the GKS got beamed up
right after making the shot and left in a puff of smoke.
Anthony Marsh
> Anthony,
>
>>> Griz,
>>> We all need to keep in mind Howard Donahue was the only professional
>>> ballistic expert to review this case and study it for a decade before
>> Wrong. Howard Donahue was not a professional ballistics expert.
> I should thank you for making this silly comment. It was my oversight
> to not provide Howard Donahue’s outstanding resumé, and credentials as
> a recognized firearms expert which I shall now post.
>
You never will.
>>> writing a book about it. Dr. Lattimer did some excellent research but he
>>> was a urologist, not a practicing ballistic expert who studied a variety
>>> of shooting incidents as Donahue had done. Donahue was for real, not a
>> Yeah, a real idiot.
> Or a real genius.
>
No, a REAL idiot.
>>> phony like Groden, et al. Many books have been written by people with no
>>> ballistic experience who don't believe a high velocity fully jacketed
>>> bullet can penetrate two human beings. I've yet to talk to any experienced
>>> rifleman who has a problem with the SBT.
>> More nonsense. No one said a FMJ can not penetrate two human beings. The
>> doubt is that CE 399 caused ALL those specific wounds and came out
>> looking so good, when you compare it to test shots.
> "This bullet {a 6.5mm Carcano missile like CE399} can penetrate four
> feet of solid wood or three pine telephone poles side by side and come
> out looking completely undeformed." -- J.K. Lattimer; Page 277
>
Irrelevant.
>>> One thing I find strange is all the witnesses who saw the AR-15 in Dealey
>>> Plaza, but no mention of that by the WC who ignored it completely, as did
>>> the HSCA. It took the book "Mortal Error" to bring it to public attention.
>> Because it is a stupid theory. The WC also did not bring out the aliens did it theory.
> I thought the alien theory was your idea, where the GKS got beamed up
> right after making the shot and left in a puff of smoke.
>
He didn't beam up. He helped officer Smith look for the shooter.
>
claviger
> On 4/14/2010 1:49 PM, claviger wrote:
>
> > Anthony,
>
> >>> Griz,
> >>> We all need to keep in mind Howard Donahue was the only professional
> >>> ballistic expert to review this case and study it for a decade before
> >> Wrong. Howard Donahue was not a professional ballistics expert.
> > I should thank you for making this silly comment. It was my oversight
> > to not provide Howard Donahue’s outstanding resumé, and credentials as
> > a recognized firearms expert which I shall now post.
>
> You never will.
>
> >>> writing a book about it. Dr. Lattimer did some excellent research but he
> >>> was a urologist, not a practicing ballistic expert who studied a variety
> >>> of shooting incidents as Donahue had done. Donahue was for real, not a
> >> Yeah, a real idiot.
> > Or a real genius.
>
> No, a REAL idiot.
no hurry.
> >>> phony like Groden, et al. Many books have been written by people with no
> >>> ballistic experience who don't believe a high velocity fully jacketed
> >>> bullet can penetrate two human beings. I've yet to talk to any experienced
> >>> rifleman who has a problem with the SBT.
> >> More nonsense. No one said a FMJ can not penetrate two human beings. The
> >> doubt is that CE 399 caused ALL those specific wounds and came out
> >> looking so good, when you compare it to test shots.
> > "This bullet {a 6.5mm Carcano missile like CE399} can penetrate four
> > feet of solid wood or three pine telephone poles side by side and come
> > out looking completely undeformed." -- J.K. Lattimer; Page 277
>
> Irrelevant.
How can scientific information possibly be irrelevant? It was a field
test according to the Scientific Method to confirm how stable the
Carcano 6.5 FMJ projectile really is, using bullets from the same
production run that Oswald used.
> >>> One thing I find strange is all the witnesses who saw the AR-15 in Dealey
> >>> Plaza, but no mention of that by the WC who ignored it completely, as did
> >>> the HSCA. It took the book "Mortal Error" to bring it to public attention.
> >> Because it is a stupid theory. The WC also did not bring out the aliens did it theory.
> > I thought the alien theory was your idea, where the GKS got beamed up
> > right after making the shot and left in a puff of smoke.
>
> He didn't beam up. He helped officer Smith look for the shooter.
Did l' poseur say anything like "Vous besoin moi donnez vous aide
trouver l' tueur?" Remember, E Howard Hunt "confessed" the sniper was
a French gunman on the Grassy Knoll. Was this impostor the same guy
with swarthy complexion and long hair seen running across the parking
lot? Yes, that makes perfect sense officer Smith could easily be
fooled into thinking he must be a Secret Service agent.
claviger
experience, knowledge, and training with firearms and ballistics. His
experience started at an early age.
Following excerpts from
"Mortal Error, The Shot That Killed JFK"
by Bonar Menninger
Howard Donahue's earliest experience with firearms as a youngster :
____________________________________________________________
Donahue’s conclusions grew from a lifetime’s experience with firearms.
From his earliest boyhood days, Howard was fascinated by hunting and
guns. That passion took hold in the woods and hills around Malone, New
York, where Howard was born in 1922, the middle son of Michael and
Mildred Donahue.
Even as a boy, Howard combined his interest in firearms with a natural
mechanical ability. Ay age eleven, he traded his Flexible Flyer sled
for a defective .22 caliber rifle. The gun’s barrel had been drilled
off center, making it woefully inaccurate. Howard trued the gun by
simply pounding the sight slightly to the left. He was soon the best
shot in the neighborhood. By his early teens, Howard was consistently
winning top honors in National Rifle Association junior marksman
compititions in Baltimore and eastern Maryland. When he wasn’t
competeing, he could most often be found tinkering in his bedroom with
shotguns and rifles or taking target practice in the fields beyond
Towson.
Howard didn’t always get along with his father, a cold, austere man,
and his emerging personality favored his mother’s. he was a charming,
happy-go-lucky kid,; a sustained the boy’s interest in hunting and
fishing, and before long the outdoors were the ruling obssession in
young Howard’s life. Spring afternoons would find him fishing for bass
and trout in in the ponds and creeks beyond Towson or hunting rabbits
past the edge of town. In summer, Howard returned to upstate New York
to hunt squirrels and fish with his uncle on the family farm.
____________________________________________________________
Howard Donhaue's service in WWII :
____________________________________________________________
Donahue’s graduation from high school came in the spring of 1940 as
German tanks slashed across Europe. That fall, Howard enetered the
University of Maryland to study engineering. When the Japanese
attacked Pearl Harbor, Howard enlisted in the Army Air Corps Reserves
and waited to be called up. Word came down in the spring of ‘43.
Donahue spent the better part of the next year training as a bomber
pilot at airfields across the South. In May of 1944, the twenty-one-
year-old-lieutenant shipped out. He arrived in England just after D
day and was assigned to the Eighth Air Force as a B-17 Flying Fortress
co-pilot, based at Bassingborn, England, thirty miles north of London.
All told, Donahue would fly thirty-five combat missions over Europe
before the war ended. He was never wounded, but he saw men maimed and
killed all around him. In September 1944, on a mission to bomb an I.G.
Farben chemical plant in Ludwigshafen, Germany, the captain of
Donahue’s aircraft was struck in the skull by a piece of antiaircraft
shell. The pilot slumped over the bomber’s controls and the plane
pitched down toward a B-17 flying nearby in tight formation.
When Howard tried to pull the pilot off the control yoke, the
semiconscious, pain-crazed man went berserk. Donahue finally kicked
the right rudder to steer the plane off the collision course, even as
he continued to grapple with the wounded man. The top turret gunner
soon helped restrain the pilot, and although two of the B-17’s four
engines were shut out, Donahue managed to limp the plane back to
England.
The young airman’s quick reactions and coolness getting home saved the
lives of at least eighteen men, including nine in the unsuspecting
bomber Donahue’s aircraft almost collided with as well as the pilot,
who mercifully recovered from his wound. For his efforts, Howard was
awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, one of the highest
commendations in the Army Air Corps. The official citation noted his
display of “courage, coolness, and tenacity of purpose” over
Ludwigshafen. By the time he returned to Mayland, Donahue had earned
seven air medals, the Distinguished Flying Cross ETO (European Theater
of Operations) with five battle stars, the Victory in Europe Medal,
and the Presidential Unit citation, making him one of the state’s most
decorated flyers of the war. He was discharged with the rank of first
lieutenant.
____________________________________________________________
After the war :
____________________________________________________________
In 1948, Howard reenrolled in the University of Maryland. He opted to
study medicine this time around and joined Delta Sigma Phi
fraternity.
In 1951 he graduated with a bachelor’s degree in psychology. He went
to work for one of the large pharmaceutical firms.
During this period, Howard spent an increasing amount of time
tinkering with guns--repairing or modifying them for friends and
neighbors--and his mechanical talent soon evolved into a remarkable
inventiveness as a gunsmith.
Typical were the modifications he designed for the popular Winchester
Model 50 and Model 59 12-guageshotguns. While well made, the guns had
a tendency to “blowback” noxious powder gas when fired. Katie had
complained about this after a couple of particularly nasty days of
skeet shooting. Howard made some calculations and had a machine shop
cut him several precisely measured stainless steel rings. Installed in
the firing chamber of the Winchester, the rings eliminated the
blowback problems and also made the guns less likely to foul.
Realizing there were thousands of Winchester shotguns across America,
Howard formed the Maryland Research Co. and began advertising his
invention in hunting magazines. Over the next twenty years, he would
modify more than three hundred of the guns at thirty-five dollars a
crack.
With extra income from his weapons business and a steady paycheck from
the pharmaceutical company, life was good enough for the Donahues as
the 1950s passed.
____________________________________________________________
claviger
Mortal Error, The Shot That Killed Kennedy
by Bonar Menninger
Chapter 8, pages 91 - 94
Explains how Howard Donahue was approached to analyze a gun involved
in a crime, and how this case led to his being asked to be an expert
witness in several other cases. Details his ability to solve
complicated cases involving firearms.
Chapter 9, page 97
How a new hobby collecting Spencer repeating rifles led him back to
the Kennedy Assassination.
____________________________________________________________
Huge numbers of the guns were eventually manufactured and many
Spencers survived into the twentieth century. Production of the
special cartridges used in the carbines, however, was halted in the
1920s. Hence no ammunition was available to fire from the repeaters,
though many of the guns were in mint condition.
Donahue was particularly frustrated by this. he'd acquired several
Spencers, including one that had actually been owned by one of
Buford's sturdy troopers. With typical ingenuity, Donahue decided the
best way to solve the problem was to modify the the carbine's breech
so the guns could fire modern center-fire ammunition. Word spread
quickly among Spencer owners that a gunsmith in Maryland was adapting
guns to fire modern ammo. Before long, Donahue was deluged with
requests to perform the work.
With well-deserved pride, the gunsmith was quoted in a Gun Week
magazine on the repeater's resurgence: "The Spencers will speak
again!"
It was this involvement with the Spencer that led to a call in the
fall of 1976 from Lieutenant Bill Welsh, then the Maryland state
police firearms examiner.
____________________________________________________________
Chapter 12, page 142
The summer of 1977 was all but gone as Howard labored to reestablish
his work routine from the days before publication of the Sun article.
This was not easy due to a deluge of requests to provide expert
ballistics testimony. After reading of Howards’s knowledge of weapons
and bullet behavior, lawyers from all over Baltimore began calling to
ask if he could help in this or that gunshot case. Although the
courtroom reponsibilities stretched him even thinner, Donahue took on
as much of the work as he could. The money was good and he enjoyed the
challenges each case posed.
One of these cases demonstrated again how easily acciedental
discharges happened when guns were around and, as far as Donahue was
concerned, bore a telling resemblance to the tragedy he believed had
taken place in the back seat of the Secret Service car.
The police department called Donahue in to investigate the shooting of
a motorcyclist by a policeman. The police department presented Donahue
with the physical evidence but didn’t allow him to interview any of
the parties involved. There was considerable controversy surrounding
the case, and police officials were anxious to see what kind of
conclusions an independent investigator might reach.
The facts were these: A policeman pulled over a young motorcyclist for
speeding. The youth was a known troublemaker. Consequently, the cop
drew his revolver as he approached the suspect. When it was over the
kid was shot through the head.
Donahue eventually deduced the officer must have lost his footing on a
particularly steep higway embankment, as he was putting the young man
up against the crusier to search him. Although the patrolman had his
pistol pointed into the air, the gun apparently tilted forward
slightly when he slipped and a convulsive muscular reaction caused him
to accidently pull the trigger. The bullet pierced the young man’s
helmet, enetered his skull, exited near the top of his head, and went
back out through the helmet. Mercifully and remarkably, the bullet
passed directly between both cerebral hemispheres and casued no mortal
damage. The young man, in fact, made a full recovery.
Donahue’s understanding of the episode confirmed the story told by the
police officer, who was not charged in the shooting, and demonstrated
the kind of involuntary physical reaction Donahue believed Hickey must
have experienced when he fell over backward with the AR-15.
____________________________________________________________
claviger
____________________________________________________________
Apparently George Washington University was sponsoring extension
classes in the Baltimore area for a Master's program in Forensic
Science.
He knew the credential's gained from the George Washington
University forensic science courses would increase his credibility as
an expert witness and firearms examiner. He also wondered if perhaps
he might not learn something new about the Kennedy assassination if he
had just a little more training. And so Donahue returned to school at
the seasoned age of fifty-eight. Two nights a week he drove to Ft.
Meade, halfway between Baltimore and Washington, for classes.
The first course of the agenda that autumn, Physical Aspects of
Forensic Science, focused on the analysis and identification of
physical evidence, including paint fragments, broken glass, fabric,
oil or dirt marks, or anything else that might provide a clue from the
scene of the crime. Not surprisingly, most of those enrolled in the
program were police officers or state and federal investigators.
One of the courses that soon followed was Firearms Identification.
The class focussed on standard ballistics analysis, including the
various procedures used to determine the origin and capabilities of a
particular bullet. Most of the material was familiar to him, but
Donahue nonetheless found it beneficial to review and occasionally
supplement his existing knowledge.
The instructor of the class was a man named Cortlandt Cunningham,
formerly chief of the Firearms Identification Unit of the FBI. The
name seemed vaguely familiar to Donahue, although he hadn't a clue as
to why. In any event he thought little more about it as the weeks
passed.
In the spring of 1981, the gunsmith enrolled in the course he had
looked forward to the most: Biological Aspects of Forensic Science.
The class presented a generalized overview of the biology of firearms
pathology--- everything from wound identification to blood analysis.
Again, Donahue was already familiar with much of the material, but a
good deal of it was new.
For the final project in the class, students were given the choice
of writing about the pathology of any of a number of well-known murder
cases. Among these was the Kennedy assassination. Donahue relished his
good luck and jumped on the opportunity. The professor gave the
students almost a year to complete their projects and Donahue worked
on his steadily, carefully laying out the chronology of his
investigation and the conclusions he'd eventually reached. In the
course of double-checking his facts and reviewing sections of the
Warren Report and other books, a name caught his attention. Cortlandt
Cunningham, his former firearms identification instructor. That's
where he'd seen the name before! Cunningham was one of the FBI
firearms examiners who'd tested Oswald's Carcano and .38 special for
the Warren Commission. He was also among the agents who'd removed
broken bullet fragments from the Presidential limo on the night of
November 22.
Earlier, Donahue had visited the National Archives to examine the
two largest bullet fragments found in the limo. Because of the absence
of brain matter, blood, and hair in the cracks and folds of the lead,
he'd concluded the the bullet pieces had not passed through Kennedy's
skull at all, as the Warren Commission claimed. Donhue instead
believed the fragments originated from Oswald's true first shot --- a
miss that struck the pavement behind and to the right of the President
and showered the the limo with ricochet fragments. Several of these
caused superficial wounds in Kennedy's scalp; another apparently
cracked the car's windshield.
Donahue wondered if perhaps the two big fragments had been covered
with blood and brain matter when they'd been recovered, and had simply
been thoroughly cleaned before being sent to the National Archives.
Cunningham, like all federal agents, was probably prohibited from
discussing the secifics of any case he'd worked on, particularly one
as notorious as the Kennedy assassination. But Donahue decided to call
him anyway.
"Mr. Cunningham. How do you do? . . . I'm Howard Donahue. I was in
your firearms identification class last semester and ah, I'm working
on a term paper on the Kennedy assassination for Biological Aspects. I
had one question that maybe you could answer for me."
"I'll try," Cunningham replied, friendly enough.
"What I wanted to know is this: Do you remember if there was any
cranial residue on the bullet fragments you picked up from the
presidential limousine on the night of the twenty-second? You know,
blood or hair or brain tissue or anything like that?"
"Well," Cunningham paused. "That's a good question. I sent the
fragments up to Blood [the FBI's forensic serology lab], but never got
an answer."
The response was less definitive than Donahue would have liked, but
nonetheless it supported his suspicion that there probably had been no
organic matter at all on the fragments. If there had been, it would
likely have been visible to the naked eye and Cunningham would have
remembered it. More important, the information would have been
included in the Warren Report, since the presence of blood and bone on
the lead would have strengthened the Commission's contention that the
car fragments came from the head wound.
The fact was, no serological report was ever produced. Evan
Cunningham never received an answer. Once again, Donahue had uncovered
an incongruity that he believed, indirectly at least, supported his
conclusions about the origin of the shot.
The gunsmith toiled away on his term paper and finally completed it
in April of 1982. The final product was a solid piece of work that
conveyed precisely his conclusions and the manner in which they'd been
reached. The professor, a notoriously tough grader, thought enough of
the paper to give it an A.
____________________________________________________________
timstter
Looks like Marsh has cut up all rusty when his hero, Groden, was
mentioned.
Far from being a *photographic expert*, Groden was exposed as being a
bloke that fixed photo processing machines for a living, LOL!
He had NO formal qualifications in the field he had been pronouncing
on for years in the JFK case.
The carnage was legendary, to steal a phrase!
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
Anthony Marsh
Groden has nothing to do with this. This is only about his false claim
that Donahue was an expert.
> Far from being a *photographic expert*, Groden was exposed as being a
> bloke that fixed photo processing machines for a living, LOL!
>
Yeah, and Einstein was only a patent clerk!
> He had NO formal qualifications in the field he had been pronouncing
> on for years in the JFK case.
>
They had no courses in assassinationology then.
claviger
So Groden is being compared to Einstein?! Is the Grodarian your idea of a
genius?!!!
What a joke! He crashed and burned during the OJ trial. In THE most
embarrassing gaff ever on a national stage he was unmasked as a woefully
incompetent self promoter.
claviger
On Sunday, May 1, 1977---almost ten years to the day after Donahue's long
journey had begun with the CBS reenactment---part one of Reppert's story
ran under the headlines KENNEDY ASSASSINATION: A DIFFERENT VIEW and AFTER
TEST FIRING, MARYLAND MAN HAS DOUBTS ABOUT OSWALD.
In the background, across from the first two pages of the story, was a
detailed ink drawing of the CBS reenactment tower with Donahue atop,
firing down on the electric trolly moving on the temporary rails. The
article told of the reenactment and Donahue's three-shot, three-hit
performance, emphasizing his long experience with firearms and ballistics.
The story also explained how Donahue had subsequently started his
investigation and how he'd been surprised by the lack of firearms
expertise displayed by so many who'd written about the killing.
Meanwhile, public reaction to the story was swift. A nerve had been
struck. The day after the second part of the article ran, the Sun
published the following editorial: "Accidental Death?"
The Associated Press picked up Reppert's story that Monday morning
and ran it on its "A, All-Points" wire.
At the gun shop, meanwhile calls were pouring in.
Later that afternoon, Donahue received queries from reporters with radio
stations in both Toronto and south Florida. The Canadian reporter, Judy
Webb, interviewed Howard for ten minutes and called several days later to
say the broadcast had generated enormous interest in the Toronto area. By
Wednesday, May 11, Donahue's story had jumped the Atlantic. A
German-language version appeared as the lead story in the Zurich,
Switzerland-based daily Blick. The headline read SENSATIONAL THESIS OF
WEAPONS EXPERT.
Reppert, meanwhile, reported that the story was the talk of the newsroom
and for the first time in memory, the Sunday paper had sold out of extra
copies.
There was no official response from the Secret Service or any other
government agency in the weeks following the publication of the story.
Donahue did, however, have two encounters that seemed to offer some
oblique corroboration of his thesis. Once again, the information arrived
via word of mouth at the gun shop.
An acquaintance who'd often done business with Donahue stopped by the
shop not long after the article appeared. He told Howard of a relative who
had recently retired from the National Security Agency, the super-secret
intelligence outfit based at nearby Fort Meade, Maryland. The agency is so
clandestine that in Washington parlance NSA is said to stand for "No Such
Agency".
According to the man, his relative, upon reading the article, had said
that "it was common knowledge among higher echelon officials at the NSA
during the time of the assassination that Kennedy had been killed by his
bodyguards."
Donahue's second encounter involved another customer whose brother
happened to be close friends with a Secret Service agent. Some time before
the Sun story ran, the man said, the agent had attended a party at the
brother's home. After getting very drunk, the agent had, without prompting
and totally out of left field, blandly asserted that Kennedy was shot by
one of his bodyguards. The man's brother dismissed the comment as
meaningless, until he read Reppert's stories in the Sun.
Donahue realized these cryptic substantiations would never hold up in a
court of law, not that it would come to that. But they were interesting.
And they were unsolicited.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
An AR-15 is not a revolver. It is a rifle.
Hickey was sitting in a limo, without a rifle in his hand. The Altgens
Z255ish photo showed he did not have a rifle in his hand.
The rifle was laying on the floorboard. In what manner did he grab the
rifle?
Donahue imagined Hickey standing, pistol grip in his right hand, falling
backward, the rifle going off as it pointed at JFK. But was that
realistic?
In the Altgens photo, Hickey was looking behind the follow car. Nothing
suggested he was yet in the process of attempting to retrieve the rifle.
Was it more likely that Hickey would have grabbed the AR-15, before or
after Kennedy was shot in the head, at which time everyone would have
realized someone was shooting?
***Ron Judge
Anthony Marsh
>> and bullet behavior, lawyers from all over Baltimore began calling to
>> ask if he could help in this or that gunshot case. Although the
>> courtroom reponsibilities stretched him even thinner, Donahue took on
>> as much of the work as he could. The money was good and he enjoyed the
>> challenges each case posed.
>>
>> One of these cases demonstrated again how easily acciedental
>> discharges happened when guns were around and, as far as Donahue was
>> concerned, bore a telling resemblance to the tragedy he believed had
>> taken place in the back seat of the Secret Service car.
>>
>> The police department called Donahue in to investigate the shooting of
>> a motorcyclist by a policeman. The police department presented Donahue
>> the parties involved. There was considerable controversy surrounding
>> the case, and police officials were anxious to see what kind of
>> conclusions an independent investigator might reach.
>>
>> The facts were these: A policeman pulled over a young motorcyclist for
>> speeding. The youth was a known troublemaker. Consequently, the cop
>> drew his revolver as he approached the suspect. When it was over the
>> kid was shot through the head.
>>
>> Donahue eventually deduced the officer must have lost his footing on a
>> particularly steep higway embankment, as he was putting the young man
>> up against the crusier to search him. Although the patrolman had his
>> pistol pointed into the air, the gun apparently tilted forward
>> slightly when he slipped and a convulsive muscular reaction caused him
>> helmet, enetered his skull, exited near the top of his head, and went
>> back out through the helmet. Mercifully and remarkably, the bullet
>> passed directly between both cerebral hemispheres and casued no mortal
>> damage. The young man, in fact, made a full recovery.
>>
>> police officer, who was not charged in the shooting, and demonstrated
>> the kind of involuntary physical reaction Donahue believed Hickey must
>> have experienced when he fell over backward with the AR-15.
>> ____________________________________________________________
>
>
> An AR-15 is not a revolver. It is a rifle.
>
> Hickey was sitting in a limo, without a rifle in his hand. The Altgens
> Z255ish photo showed he did not have a rifle in his hand.
>
> The rifle was laying on the floorboard. In what manner did he grab the
> rifle?
>
> Donahue imagined Hickey standing, pistol grip in his right hand, falling
> backward, the rifle going off as it pointed at JFK. But was that
> realistic?
>
No he didn't. Stop misrepresenting people's theories to shoot them down.
You haven't even read his book. His diagram shows how he imagines Hickey
standing up holding the rifle. Unfortunatly Donahue did not know about the
Bronson film, which shows that no one was standing up like that.
claviger
The Bronson film doesn't prove anything.
claviger
> An AR-15 is not a revolver. It is a rifle.
Correct. It is a lightweight short rifle made with synthetic
materials. The ammo is a .223 caliber bullet propelled with a clean,
fast burning gunpowder developed by DuPont which produced very high
velocity, three times a normal .22 bullet. This hyper velocity creates
an extreme temperature load on the projectile causing it to soften in
flight, often causing the lead ball/copper jacket to shatter when
meeting hard bone. For this reason certain international organizations
want it classified as a frangible bullet and banned by international
law. The weapon is so light it can be fired with one arm and has
minimum recoil.
> Hickey was sitting in a limo, without a rifle in his hand. The Altgens
> Z255ish photo showed he did not have a rifle in his hand.
> The rifle was laying on the floorboard. In what manner did he grab the
> rifle?
He was in charge of this weapon during the parade, so he set it down
under the seat in position to be quickly accessed if needed. Being
right handed it was probably positioned on its left side pointing
left.
> Donahue imagined Hickey standing, pistol grip in his right hand, falling
> backward, the rifle going off as it pointed at JFK. But was that
> realistic?
What Donahue fears happened is he picked up the weapon and tried to
turn and stand at the same time. As he tried to twist around to his
right and return fire the driver either hit the brake or accelerated,
causing Agent Hickey to lose balance. Witnesses saw him fall over.
Donahue believes by sitting up higher in the back seat SSA Hickey was
the only bodyguard to realize gunfire was coming from above, not
street level where all the other agents were looking. As he tried to
maneuver to take a shot at the sniper he lost balance with his finger
on the trigger.
Sit in a chair with a yardstick in both hands. Simply twist to the
right and look up. Now standup into a crouch and notice which way the
yardstick is pointing. Since Hickey was on the left side of the back
seat his weapon would be pointing down the centerline of both
vehicles. President Kennedy was leaning to his left with his head
close to the centerline at the time of the head shot.
> In the Altgens photo, Hickey was looking behind the follow car. Nothing
> suggested he was yet in the process of attempting to retrieve the rifle.
> Was it more likely that Hickey would have grabbed the AR-15, before or
> after Kennedy was shot in the head, at which time everyone would have
> realized someone was shooting?
He claims he did not reach for the rifle until after the last shot.
The Altgens photo was taken after the second shot based on the fact
Jackie is already holding her husband's arm. We can't tell if Hickey
is holding anything yet. After the second loud noise the SS agents
realized they were under fire and acted accordingly. Some pulled their
pistols. It makes sense the agent in charge of the rifle would take
action as well.
Donahue never suggests Hickey is negligent or at fault in any way. Had
he kept his balance Hickey may have shot the sniper dead and been a
national hero. It was simply a case of a brave man trying his best to
protect the President who was the victim of circumstances. These
things are known to happen in law enforcement and combat.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***I own a hard cover copy of Donahue's book. Thus i have read his
book.
The diagram you refer to is two pages before 179. Hickey with legs
bent, left arm straight out to the side, trying to balance himself.
Sure looks like his butt is about to park on the top of the back seat,
from falling backward.
Donahue has certainly seen the Altgen's photo, which also showed no
one was standing up like that. That photo is also in Donahues book.
Just "standing up like that" would not have caused Hickey to fire a
bullet into the back of JFK's head. Donahue had him losing his
balance, thus squezing off a round.
***Ron Judge
Anthony Marsh
Yes, and not trying to hold it by a pistol grip as some idiot here said.
And don't pretend that you are the first person to point out that the
posture would not produce the necessary trajectory. This is very old news.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***I wasn't pointing out anything about trajectory, just that it was
unlikely that Hickey would have stood up in the process of grabbing
the AR-15 from below the level of his own feet. I question whether
Hickey even picked up the rifle before he saw JFK struck in the head,
considering he did not have the rifle in his possession or even appear
to be starting to retrieve it, as of the Altgens photo. Even if he
had moved to grab the rifle, just after the Altgens photo, the report
he had heard was behind him, thus he would have stooped down to grab
the rifle and wheeled back around to the rear, without standing up in
the car.
***Ron Judge
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***In the Altgens photo, the position of Hickey's head did not indicate he
was looking up. In the photo, the head of a man is just to the left of
Hickey's head. While not necessarily looking at that man, the position of
Hickey's head indicates him looking at about that height level. Hickey
may have been sitting higher, but he was lower that any of the standing
agents. Landis and the other agent turned to the rear were also appeared
to be looking at eye level.
***Ron Judge
Anthony Marsh
Fun to guess, isn't it? But the photographic evidence shows that he did
not pick it up until several seconds after the head shot, so your
speculation is only academic. And the photographic evidence shows that he
was facing forward with the barrel pointed upwards as the SS car sped off.
So much for your silly idea about him turning around and waving it around
wildly looking for the TSBD shooter.
claviger
claviger
> On Jun 15, 11:41 am, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ron,
>
>
> > materials. The ammo is a .223 caliber bullet propelled with a clean,
> > fast burning gunpowder developed by DuPont which produced very high
> > velocity, three times a normal .22 bullet. This hyper velocity creates
> > an extreme temperature load on the projectile causing it to soften in
> > flight, often causing the lead ball/copper jacket to shatter when
> > meeting hard bone. For this reason certain international organizations
> > want it classified as a frangible bullet and banned by international
> > law. The weapon is so light it can be fired with one arm and has
> > minimum recoil.
>
> > > Z255ish photo showed he did not have a rifle in his hand.
> > > The rifle was laying on the floorboard. In what manner did he grab the
> > > rifle?
>
> > under the seat in position to be quickly accessed if needed. Being
> > right handed it was probably positioned on its left side pointing
> > left.
>
> > > backward, the rifle going off as it pointed at JFK. But was that
> > > realistic?
>
> > turn and stand at the same time. As he tried to twist around to his
> > right and return fire the driver either hit the brake or accelerated,
> > causing Agent Hickey to lose balance. Witnesses saw him fall over.
> > Donahue believes by sitting up higher in the back seat SSA Hickey was
> > the only bodyguard to realize gunfire was coming from above, not
> > street level where all the other agents were looking. As he tried to
> > maneuver to take a shot at the sniper he lost balance with his finger
> > on the trigger.
>
> ***In the Altgens photo, the position of Hickey's head did not indicate he
> was looking up. In the photo, the head of a man is just to the left of
> Hickey's head. While not necessarily looking at that man, the position of
> Hickey's head indicates him looking at about that height level. Hickey
> may have been sitting higher, but he was lower that any of the standing
> agents. Landis and the other agent turned to the rear were also appeared
> to be looking at eye level.
All these SS Agents were conditioned to a threat from street level, so
their first reaction was to stare into the crowd. The first shot miss
ricocheted off the street making a pop like a firecracker. So the first
loud sound was at street level. Witnesses saw an agent with a "machine
gun" stand up and fall over, so it doesn't matter why he did it. Hickey
was sitting up higher than anyone else, with his feet on the seat, not the
floorboard. It would be natural instinct to lean over, pick up the rifle,
and return to the same place where he could see better from his elevated
position. The speculation is why did he attempt to stand up rather than
stay seated? Maybe to better search the crowd at street level. By standing
up his weapon would now clear the windshield momentarily as he lost
balance. Donahue is saying this was a freak accident, as most friendly
fire shootings are. He was convinced no one could plan something like this
and pull it off.
claviger
One more theory: maybe SSA Hickey instinctively stood up to protect the
President by putting himself in the line of fire. Perhaps he was trying to
shield the President with his own body. That is another trained instinct
of SS Agents.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***My idea was that Hickey probably did not even pick up the rifle
until after the head shot.
Wheeling around to the rear is not the same thing as waving wildly and
i said nothing about Hickey waving the rifle wildly.
***Ron Judge
tomnln
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5999ec44-4c47-4b7b...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
claviger
> Donahue paid DEARLY when Hickey Sued him for his Slanderous Bullshit ! ! !
Another myth busted. The civil complaint by Hickey was filed after the
statute of limitations ran out, so the judge dismissed the lawsuit. This
brings up a very significant question. Why did Hickey's attorney allow
this to happen? Either he was incompetent and committed legal malpractice,
or Hickey had no desire to be involved in a public trial where he would
have to testify under oath. Both he and the SS would and the SS would be
compelled to answer all the forensic evidence compiled by Donahue on the
public record in a courthouse full of reporters. The SS would have to
produce internal documents and testify under oath. Neither Hickey nor the
SS was interested in being involved in a lawsuit of any kind.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
> Donahue paid DEARLY when Hickey Sued him for his Slanderous Bullshit ! ! !
>
***Seems to me those same witnesses would have seen the AR-15 go off, if
indeed they had seen Hickey stand up and fall over. Jean Hill was
standing how many feet from Hickey when JFK was shot in the head? How
many feet from Bill Newman? How loud would a Hickey shot have been,
compared to the other shots, to Jean and Bill, not to mention the
direction the sound would have come from, feet from where they were
standing?
***Ron Judge
Anthony Marsh
Two of Kennedy's closest aides were sitting right in front of Hickey and
they said that the shots sounded like they came from the grassy knoll.
Would they keep silent? Well, yes the FBI told them not to tell the truth.
But would the FBI tell them to keep quiet if they said they heard the
shots coming from right behind them and would they? I don't think they
would.
Anthony Marsh
What planet are you living on? The SS would not have to answer any
questions at all. National Security.
Anthony Marsh
Just plain silly.
Anthony Marsh
Wrong. Just that morning the President and the SS discussed the fact
that if a nut was determined to shoot him he could fire from an office
building and there was nothing that the SS could do to prevent it.
> ricocheted off the street making a pop like a firecracker. So the first
> loud sound was at street level. Witnesses saw an agent with a "machine
> gun" stand up and fall over, so it doesn't matter why he did it. Hickey
> was sitting up higher than anyone else, with his feet on the seat, not the
> floorboard. It would be natural instinct to lean over, pick up the rifle,
> and return to the same place where he could see better from his elevated
Kinda hard to just lean over and pick up the rifle off the floor when
sitting on the top of the back seat with your feet on the seat. Try it
some time. Hickey was not seated that way. We have the photographic
evidence. You are just making up crap again.
> position. The speculation is why did he attempt to stand up rather than
> stay seated? Maybe to better search the crowd at street level. By standing
> up his weapon would now clear the windshield momentarily as he lost
> balance. Donahue is saying this was a freak accident, as most friendly
No, it wouldn't.
Anthony Marsh
Four Days. Pictures of the Pain. Why do you refuse to look at the
evidence?
claviger
> ***Seems to me those same witnesses would have seen the AR-15 go off,
> if indeed they had seen Hickey stand up and fall over.
Keep in mind everyone in Dealey Plaza came to see JFK and Jackie. All
eyes were on them. One witness standing on the overpass did see a
bodyguard raise up with a machine gun and drop back down. Some
witnesses had the distinct impression shots were fired from around the
Limousine. Not all witnesses who saw the SS agent with “machine gun”
in hand would have have been able to focus on him the whole time. They
could have noticed him before or after the exact moment he fired a
shot.
> Jean Hill was standing how many feet from Hickey when JFK was shot in the head?
As a matter of fact she can be seen in the Z-film looking behind the
Presidential Limousine. What caught her attention to take her eyes off
the President? She doesn’t remember, but had the impression a
bodyguard fired back. It is possible Jean Hill did see what happened
out of the corner of her eye, but wasn't sure exactly what she saw.
> How many feet from Bill Newman?
Very close but he and his family were staring at the President when he
was shot.
> How loud would a Hickey shot have been, compared to the other
> shots, to Jean and Bill, not to mention the direction the sound
> would have come from, feet from where they were standing?
The AR15 makes a loud report when fired. Some witnesses mention one of
the shots sounded different. There are two possible explanations.
The people in Dealey Plaza came to see a parade, not a gun battle.
When unexpected loud sounds took place around the Limousine most
witnesses had no idea what was happening. Donahue thinks the first
shot ricocheted off the pavement, several feet behind and to the right
of the Limousine. If so, the sound of the impact happened closer to
the follow-up car. Two more loud sounds followed. It is possible in
the confusion no one knew where the sounds were coming from since they
were all facing forward, and being down range from gunfire was a new
experience for most of them.
The other explanation is they did realize what happened but were
ordered to keep quiet by a high ranking member of the Cabinet.
claviger
claviger
> Howard Donahue's theory was a load of libelous crap.
> It rested largely on a gunsmith deciding that he knew
> wound forensics better than forensic pathologists did.
Where did you get that idea? Donahue based his theory on observations by
the Clark Panel who, after careful study of the X-rays, agreed the BOH
wound was higher than the autopsy description. CTs never tire of
criticizing the flawed pathology report perpared by Cmdr Humes. Would you
care to defend it on a separate thread? Humes does have one champion in
John Canal who would be happy to share his opinions with you. On the other
hand, this forum is full of CTs who believe they know more than the
forensic pathologists. So they must be full of libelous crap too, by your
definition.
> It is conclusively refuted by the Bronson film, in which Hickey
> can be seen NOT shooting JFK in the head at the time of the
> head shot.
There is nothing conclusive about the Bronson film. It doesn’t prove
anything.
> St. Martin's Press found this out to their major chagrin when they
> had to make an out of court payment to settle the libel suit based
> on the widespread recycling of Donahue's garbage in buff compendia,
> smut magazines, and other fine sources.
You must read a lot of smut magazines to know that, so I must to defer to
your intimate knowledge of that genre. However, I'm not aware the Donahue
Theory is that well known. My impression is most people on this forum are
not all that familiar with it. They've heard about it but not many have
read the details. So I question how widespread the recycling of Donahue's
research actually is.
St. Martin's did not have to make an out of court payment, they chose to
because of the nuisance factor created by the plaintiff attorney shopping
the lawsuit to other courts. His strategy was to file in as many as
possible, and even though all could be easily won it still cost time and
money. His strategy was basically harassment and St Martin's made a
settlement to make this horse-fly go away. There never was any retraction
and the publisher never disavowed the information in the book.
It should also be noted that the plaintiff attorney committed legal
malpractice by allowing his client to file late after the statute-of-
limitations expired. He could have and should have been sued by his client
for gross negligence. Unless that was the strategy all along, to create a
publicity stunt but stay out of court where his client and the Secret
Service would be required to testify on the record under oath, and produce
internal documents.
> (Hickey's lawyers had missed the 1- year statute of limitations deadline for the suit on the book > itself, but the case was reinstated based on the book's having been the source for more recent > defamations.)
Can you cite your source on that? I checked with a former civil court
judge who said it is highly unlikely any court would be sympathetic to
that excuse when the alleged injured party missed the first and most
important deadline.
> It is shocking to see anyone still peddling this load of
> codswallop.
Shocking? You must be a newbie who is easily startled, because this
alternative theory has been discussed numerous times on this debate forum.
We’ll try to be gentle with your delicate sensibilities as we approach
this from a scientific and intellectual perspective. As for codswallop
there is plenty of that to go around too, so we're used to it by now. If
you want to add some of your own, be our guest. I will forewarn you there
is a rough and tumble crowd on this newsgroup, so if you're accustomed to
a less gregarious bunch of characters you're in for quite a roller-coaster
ride in this amusement park.
Anthony Marsh
> Dave,
>
>> Howard Donahue's theory was a load of libelous crap.
>> It rested largely on a gunsmith deciding that he knew
>> wound forensics better than forensic pathologists did.
>
> Where did you get that idea? Donahue based his theory on observations by
> the Clark Panel who, after careful study of the X-rays, agreed the BOH
> wound was higher than the autopsy description. CTs never tire of
> criticizing the flawed pathology report perpared by Cmdr Humes. Would you
> care to defend it on a separate thread? Humes does have one champion in
> John Canal who would be happy to share his opinions with you. On the other
> hand, this forum is full of CTs who believe they know more than the
> forensic pathologists. So they must be full of libelous crap too, by your
> definition.
>
I have often pointed out that one of the only valuable things in his
book is the criticism of the HSCA on the head wound. And the photos and
illustrations.
>> It is conclusively refuted by the Bronson film, in which Hickey
>> can be seen NOT shooting JFK in the head at the time of the
>> head shot.
>
> There is nothing conclusive about the Bronson film. It doesn?t prove
> We?ll try to be gentle with your delicate sensibilities as we approach