Sensation / Arthur Rimbaud / c&c

[George Dance]

In hot summer days of shimmering blue
I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
While cool winds bathe my ears.

Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
As I wander with nothing to guide me,
But an infinite love will grow in my soul
As if for a woman beside me.

- translated by George Dance, 14/04/13


Par les soirs bleus d'été, j'irai dans les sentiers,
Picoté par les blés, fouler l'herbe menue :
Rêveur, j'en sentirai la fraîcheur à mes pieds.
Je laisserai le vent baigner ma tête nue.

Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,
Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l'âme ;
Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.

- Arthur Rimbaud, 1870

[George Dance]

On Apr 14, 7:08 am, Hieronymous House <hieronymous...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> 6:34 AMGeorge Dance

> I don't know that I can help you much here, George.
> Translation isn't really my thing, and I don't speak much French.
>
> By the blue summer evenings, I go down the paths,
> Pricked by the corn, trampling the grass:
> Dreamer, I feel its coolness on my feet.
> I let the wind bathe my bare head.
>
> I will not speak, I shall think nothing
> But infinite love will mount in my soul;
> And I will go far, very far, like a gipsy,
> By nature, happy- as with a woman.

That's OK; I don't think it needs much help.

The important goals in translation are, in order of priority

(1) to keep all of the original's thoughts and images, and language,
(2) to keep as much of his sound (meter, rhymes, alliterations, etc.)
as possible,
(3) to use the best possible words in the best possible order given
the above constraints.

Your translation satisfies (1), but fails (2) and (3). Here's a
translation that satisfes (1) and (2), but IMO fails (3) (again IMO,
because it tries too hard to satisfy (2) - it tries to keep *all* the
rhyme, and ends up with some forced rhymes and some weak ones):


(Sensation)

Through the blue summer days, I shall travel all the ways,
Pricked by the ears of maize, trampling the dew:
A dreamer, I will gaze, as underfoot the coolness plays.
I’ll let the evening breeze drench my head anew.

I shall say – not a thing: I shall think – not a thing:
But an infinite love will swell in my soul,
And far off I shall go, a bohemian,
Through Nature – as happy, as if I had a girl.

- A.S. Kline
(This work may be freely reproduced, stored, and transmitted,
electronically or otherwise, for any non-commercial purpose.)

[George Dance]

I think I should put language in a separate category, since one can't
preserve all of it:

>
(1) to keep all of the original's thoughts and images,

(2) to keep as much of his language as possible,
(3) to keep as much of his sound (meter, rhymes, alliterations, etc.)
as possible,
(4) to use the best possible words in the best possible order given

[RVG]

Le 14/04/2013 13:42, Peter J Ross a écrit :
> In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Sun, 14 Apr 2013 03:34:03 -0700 (PDT),
> George Dance wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> For the benefit of newcomers to the newsgroup, it may be useful to
> note once again that George Dance is a plagiarist. Critiquing the
> poems that he tries to pass off as his own work is a waste of time if
> you want to help the author.
>
> For example, here's Leonard Cohen's "Summer Haiku", masquerading as a
> competition entry by George Dance:
>
> Message-ID: <e54a8f25-58c9-40a7...@q1g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>
>
> Archived here: <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.poems/msg/de727e6dcd6ea432>
>
> As well as plagiarising in the hope of making people think he's able
> to write poetry, he also publicly and blatantly abuses the copyright
> of those who take him to task for his behaviour, which puts us to the
> inconvenience of writing DMCA takedown notices, threatening legal
> action etc. I advise anybody who doesn't want to be inconvenienced by
> his childish attempts at revenge to ignore him.
>
> Incidentally, while it can sometimes be difficult to tell which texts
> posted by a known plagiarist are plagiarised and which aren't, this
> and other translations of French authors certainly can't have been
> written by George Dance. He's admitted in the past that he doesn't
> even speak French:
>

I do, and this translation sucks, whoever made it.

> Message-ID: <6312c50b.04081...@posting.google.com>
>
> Archived here: <http://groups.google.com/group/alt.censorship/msg/337a44b423f73e03>
>
>


--
"Shut your eyes and see."
James Joyce, Ulysses

http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/
http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff
http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/

[RVG]

Le 14/04/2013 12:34, George Dance a �crit :

> In hot summer days of shimmering blue
> I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
> Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
> While cool winds bathe my ears.
>
> Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
> As I wander with nothing to guide me,
> But an infinite love will grow in my soul
> As if for a woman beside me.
>
> - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
>
>

> Par les soirs bleus d'�t�, j'irai dans les sentiers,
> Picot� par les bl�s, fouler l'herbe menue :
> R�veur, j'en sentirai la fra�cheur � mes pieds.
> Je laisserai le vent baigner ma t�te nue.

>
> Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,

> Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l'�me ;
> Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un boh�mien,

> Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.
>
> - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870
>

By the blue Summer evenings, I'll walk on the trails,
Pecked by wheat, treading on short grass :
Daydreaming, I'll feel its coolness under my feet.
I will let the wind bathe my bare head.

I won't speak, I won't think a thing,
But infinite love will grow in my soul;
And I'll go far, really far, like a Bohemian,
By Nature, joyful - like with a woman.

[George Dance]

On Apr 14, 8:08 am, RVG <not.h...@themoment.invalid.org> wrote:

> Le 14/04/2013 12:34, George Dance a écrit :
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In hot summer days of shimmering blue
> > I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
> > Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
> > While cool winds bathe my ears.
>
> > Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
> > As I wander with nothing to guide me,
> > But an infinite love will grow in my soul
> > As if for a woman beside me.
>
> > - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
>

> > Par les soirs bleus d'été, j'irai dans les sentiers,
> > Picoté par les blés, fouler l'herbe menue :

> > Rêveur, j'en sentirai la fraîcheur à mes pieds.
> > Je laisserai le vent baigner ma tête nue.

>
> > Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,

> > Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l'âme ;
> > Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,

> > Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.
>
> > - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870
>
> By the blue Summer evenings, I'll walk on the trails,
> Pecked by wheat, treading on short grass :
> Daydreaming, I'll feel its coolness under my feet.
> I will let the wind bathe my bare head.

BZZT! Rimbaud didn't write free verse. He used meter and rhyme.

Your words are dull as dishwater, except for one ("pecked by wheat"),
and that one's just bizarre. Are we supposed to imagine wheat as a
chicken? (Maybe a chicken pecking it and it pecking back?)

> I won't speak, I won't think a thing,
> But infinite love will grow in my soul;
> And I'll go far, really far, like a Bohemian,
> By Nature, joyful - like with a woman.
>

This is a very faithful transcript; but it's nothing but a transcript.
There's no indication in it that either writer (Rimbaud or RVG) knows
the first thing about verse or poetry.

> --
> "Shut your eyes and see."
> James Joyce, Ulysses
>

Take Joyce's advice, RVG: shut your eyes and read your transcript
aloud.


> http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoffhttp://bluedusk.blogspot.com/

[George Dance]

On Apr 14, 7:58 am, RVG <not.h...@themoment.invalid.org> wrote:
> > In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Sun, 14 Apr 2013 03:34:03 -0700 (PDT),
> > George Dance wrote:
>

<unsnip>

In hot summer days of shimmering blue
I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
While cool winds bathe my ears.
Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
As I wander with nothing to guide me,
But an infinite love will grow in my soul
As if for a woman beside me.


- translated by George Dance, 14/04/13


>

> I do, and this translation sucks, whoever made it.
>

Oh, yes: you're the man who decided to improve on my translation of
"Roman" (by rewriting some of the lines, but also using some of mine
word-for-word, without credit) aren't you? So please keep your nasty
insinuations of plagiarism to yourself.

Instead, why don't you do something productive, like telling the group
(like you did for "Roman" just why you think it 'sucks'.

I said why I thought your translation sucks. (Of course, you're free
to defend it).

Now it's your turn.

[George Dance]

On Apr 14, 7:42 am, Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> wrote:


snip

> George Dance is a plagiarist.
>


>

> For example, here's Leonard Cohen's "Summer Haiku", masquerading as a
> competition entry by George Dance:
>
> Message-ID: <e54a8f25-58c9-40a7...@q1g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>
>

Actually, liar, as the quoted message makes clear, my 'competition
entry' was:

<quote>
> >Around the fire
> >scent of burning leaves,
>
> >Crickets make music
> >for the circling dark –
>
> >Sudden water-sound,
> >then crickets again.
</quote>

>
> Archived here: <http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.poems/msg/de727e6dcd6ea432>
>


And here's the final version of that poem, which includes the quoted
lines:

September Night

Silence
and a deeper silence
when the crickets
hesitate
- Summer Haiku, Leonard Cohen

Around the campfire
smell of burning
leaves in
silence.

Crickets serenade
to soothe
the circling dark.
And a deeper silence

swoops down after
a muted splash
quiets the band,
when the crickets

pause – for an instant
nothing rings out like a gong,
for an instant our heartbeats
hesitate.

http://gdancesbetty.blogspot.ca/2010/09/september-night-george-dance.html

[RVG]

Le 14/04/2013 14:26, George Dance a �crit :

> On Apr 14, 8:08 am, RVG <not.h...@themoment.invalid.org> wrote:

>> Le 14/04/2013 12:34, George Dance a �crit :

>>
>>> In hot summer days of shimmering blue I will roam undiscovered
>>> frontiers, Where grasses prickle and cool my soles, While cool
>>> winds bathe my ears.
>>
>>> Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think As I wander
>>> with nothing to guide me, But an infinite love will grow in my
>>> soul As if for a woman beside me.
>>
>>> - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
>>

>>> Par les soirs bleus d'�t�, j'irai dans les sentiers, Picot� par
>>> les bl�s, fouler l'herbe menue : R�veur, j'en sentirai la

>>> fra�cheur � mes pieds. Je laisserai le vent baigner ma t�te nue.

>>
>>> Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien, Mais l'amour infini me

>>> montera dans l'�me ; Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un
>>> boh�mien, Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.

>>
>>> - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870
>>
>> By the blue Summer evenings, I'll walk on the trails, Pecked by
>> wheat, treading on short grass : Daydreaming, I'll feel its
>> coolness under my feet. I will let the wind bathe my bare head.
>
> BZZT! Rimbaud didn't write free verse. He used meter and rhyme.
>

In a language that doesn't work at all like English meter rules, based
on the tonic accent, but on the actual number of pronounced syllables.
I think that poetry can never be translated and that a translation is,
at best, a sketch that gives an idea of what the poem is about.

In French I write poems that are deliberately untranslatable, because I
use most of the words so that ALL their meanings, including
etymological, produce an effect in the reader's mind.
For example (one that works both in French and English), I'll use
"l�gende" (legend) as a word that speaks like Latin "legere" (to read),
and Greek "legein" and "logos", as well as "collect", etc.
An entire poem can be based on one of its first words or make touch and
goes around the various layers of sense of a given word or group of words.

Rimbaud wrote some poems so that the number of letters would be meaningful.
If you sort the letters in "Le loup criait sous les feuilles" you can
form the Latin sentence: "O cano cognem lupus chordae" - "I sing and
know the heart of the wolf".
This comes from a poetic tradition that comes from the troubadours and,
even before, from the Persian Sufi poets that medieval European poets
had been able to read in the Middle East during the Frank Kingdom of
Jerusalem.

> Your words are dull as dishwater, except for one ("pecked by
> wheat"), and that one's just bizarre.

Yes, Rimbaud's use of vocabulary is often strange. In Roman he used
"Robinson" as a verb for example, and The Illuminations are almost
unreadable for someone who would only have a practical knowledge of French.
But then the same applies to Nerval and goes even further with Mallarm�
who pushed French grammar to its limits, quite like James Joyce in
Finnegans Wake sixty years later.
Rimbaud's Vowels has no literal meaning.

> Are we supposed to imagine wheat as a chicken? (Maybe a chicken
> pecking it and it pecking back?)
>

The word sounds funny. In French we'd use two verbs: "picorer" and
"picoter".
But Rimbaud seems to play around the sound of one verb and the meaning
of the other.

>> I won't speak, I won't think a thing, But infinite love will grow
>> in my soul; And I'll go far, really far, like a Bohemian, By
>> Nature, joyful - like with a woman.
>>
>
> This is a very faithful transcript; but it's nothing but a
> transcript. There's no indication in it that either writer (Rimbaud
> or RVG) knows the first thing about verse or poetry.
>

Poetry doesn't pass to another language.
Try to translate Pushkin's first verses of Ruslan i Ludmila for example:

http://youtu.be/n5T6csK-QiY

--
"Shut your eyes and see."
James Joyce, Ulysses

[Will Dockery]

Peter J Ross wrote:
> In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Sun, 14 Apr 2013 03:34:03 -0700 (PDT),
>
> George Dance wrote:
>

> <snip>
>
> For the benefit of newcomers to the newsgroup, it may be useful to
> note once again that

One of the first things that new and casual readers need (and will) understand about PJR is that he's a liar and a hypocrite.

We can provide multiple examples of that, or just read on for a few days and learn for yourselves.

[Will Dockery]

"George Dance" <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:6317de05-ff35-4c47...@i5g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

In hot summer days of shimmering blue
I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
While cool winds bathe my ears.

Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
As I wander with nothing to guide me,
But an infinite love will grow in my soul
As if for a woman beside me.

- translated by George Dance, 14/04/13

Par les soirs bleus d'�t�, j'irai dans les sentiers,
Picot� par les bl�s, fouler l'herbe menue :

R�veur, j'en sentirai la fra�cheur � mes pieds.
Je laisserai le vent baigner ma t�te nue.

Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,

Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l'�me ;
Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un boh�mien,

Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.

- Arthur Rimbaud, 1870

Hello George, as you know, I've a great love of Rimbaud and what I can
understand of his poetry.

and as we've discussed in years past, I've been fascinated for a long time
with
translations of Rimbaud, and time being short, here's a few previous
thoughts on those:
"...And as I just posted, in English translation there's the added /
riches/ (or botches) of multiple interpretations. I have three Rimbaud
books here, and the style and quality of the translations vary wildly
in them... one even forces English rhymes onto the poems and tends to
keep the wording and images as "calm" as possible, while another goes
in the other direction, stressing Rimbaud's more bizarre side... the
other day I saw a nice looking new edition on the shelves, with the
blurb "The definitive Rimbaud translation for our times"... hopefully
this time they stick to what he actually /wrote/, and get it to
English as close as they can..."

"...I've gone into this subject over the years, mostly through my
lifelong interest in the French poets Rimbaud and Baudelaire. Here's
some recent thoughts I had on translations, in which I point of that
the the content of a poem always has a higher priority over a cookie-
cutter "form", anyhow...Yeah, Rimbaud can be all that, and more... but
in reading AR in English translations over the years, the tone, even
the /message/ of the poems can change coming from his original French
to English versions. His "Vowels", for example, or two examples of
many:

<snip for brevity>

And dozens of other variations... pretty much any book of Rimbaud you
pick up in English will have "different" poems, depending on the
interpretation and agenda of the translator. And comparing the
translations in the book in front of me to the same poems in different
translarions on the internet (the few that exist), the same situation
exists with the Russian poets. And keep in mind that these poems were
written during the harsh Soviet days, when millions vanished there for
saying or writing the "wrong" things, so there's no doubt a subtlety
and code in some of these poems that the translators of that grim era
may not have had the balls or the political agenda to keep intact...
or the talent.Translators, after all, often fall into the same
category as critics and teachers: "Those who can't..."

Hey, I found a nice piece by Patti Smith expounding on Rimbaud that
should go in this thread somewhere, maybe next trip over here to chat
with you all.

[Will Dockery]

"Hieronymous House" <hierony...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:847df377-3be5-431a...@googlegroups.com...
>
> Sic semper tyrannis.

Translation handy?

[Will Dockery]

While I like your translation pretty good, George, I also like the literal translation:

By the blue summer evenings, I go down the paths,
Pricked by the corn, trampling the grass:
Dreamer, I feel its coolness on my feet.
I let the wind bathe my bare head.

I will not speak, I shall think nothing
But infinite love will mount in my soul;
And I will go far, very far, like a gipsy,
By nature, happy-as with a woman.

- Arthur Rimbaud, 1870

[Will Dockery]

"George Dance" <george...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message

news:5c5d38ce-3471-4159...@e8g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...

On Apr 14, 7:08 am, Hieronymous House <hieronymous...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> 6:34 AMGeorge Dance
>
> In hot summer days of shimmering blue
> I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
> Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
> While cool winds bathe my ears.
>
> Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
> As I wander with nothing to guide me,
> But an infinite love will grow in my soul
> As if for a woman beside me.
>
> - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
>

> Par les soirs bleus d'�t�, j'irai dans les sentiers,
> Picot� par les bl�s, fouler l'herbe menue :
> R�veur, j'en sentirai la fra�cheur � mes pieds.
> Je laisserai le vent baigner ma t�te nue.

>
> Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,

> Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l'�me ;
> Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un boh�mien,

I�ll let the evening breeze drench my head anew.

I shall say � not a thing: I shall think � not a thing:

But an infinite love will swell in my soul,
And far off I shall go, a bohemian,

Through Nature � as happy, as if I had a girl.

- A.S. Kline
(This work may be freely reproduced, stored, and transmitted,
electronically or otherwise, for any non-commercial purpose.)

True, Rimbaud has to be a tough poet to get right... after all he was so
high on the scale it would pretty much take someone on his level of crazed
genius to get it right, and those types are usually busy writing their own
mad poems...

Rimbaud's language was French, so the translations vary somewhat wildly,
depending on the styles and agendas of the translators. I have three books
of Rimbaud in my collection, and each one gives different effects when
reading the poems.

Anyway, here's more of my earlier thoughts of translations and their
problems and values:

"...And as I just posted, in English translation there's the added /
riches/ (or
botches) of multiple interpretations."

"I have three Rimbaud books here, and the style and quality of the
translations vary wildly in them... one even forces English rhymes
onto the
poems and tends to keep the wording and images as "calm" as possible,
while
another goes in the other direction, stressing Rimbaud's more bizarre
side... the other day I saw a nice looking new edition on the shelves,
with
the blurb "The definitive Rimbaud translation for our times"...
hopefully
this time they stick to what he actually /wrote/, and get it to
English as

close as they can..." -Will Dockery, June 20 2007

"Let us compare mythologies." -Leonard Cohen

[Will Dockery]

"Peter J Ross wrote:
>
> But Rimbaud doesn't excite me.

Heh... nobody seems to excite you except Chuck, PJR.

"We know."

[Will Dockery]

"RVG" <not....@themoment.invalid.org> wrote in message
news:kke5fe$61s$1...@blueduskconspiracy.eternal-september.org...

> Le 14/04/2013 13:42, Peter J Ross a écrit :
>

>> This and other translations of French authors certainly can't have been

>> written by George Dance. He's admitted in the past that he doesn't
>> even speak French:
>
> I do, and this translation sucks, whoever made it.
>

> --
> "Shut your eyes and see."
> James Joyce, Ulysses
>
> http://rvgmusic.bandcamp.com/
> http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff
> http://bluedusk.blogspot.com/

As with subtitles in a movie, there's the understanding that the translated
poem will very likely be inferior to the original, and sometimes the best
course may be to go /transforative/ on the piece, echo the original, yet
make it your own.

[RVG]

Le 14/04/2013 22:41, Peter J Ross a écrit :
> In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:28:49 +0200, RVG
> wrote:

>
>> Le 14/04/2013 14:26, George Dance a écrit :
>>> On Apr 14, 8:08 am, RVG <not.h...@themoment.invalid.org> wrote:

>>>> Le 14/04/2013 12:34, George Dance a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> In hot summer days of shimmering blue I will roam
>>>>> undiscovered frontiers, Where grasses prickle and cool my
>>>>> soles, While cool winds bathe my ears.
>>>>
>>>>> Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think As I wander
>>>>> with nothing to guide me, But an infinite love will grow in
>>>>> my soul As if for a woman beside me.
>>>>
>>>>> - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
>

> "Shimmering blue!"
>
> "Bathe my ears!"
>
> Whoever translated Rimbaud's poem seems to be almost as ignorant of
> French (and English) as the plagiarist who posted it.

>
>>>>> Par les soirs bleus d'été, j'irai dans les sentiers, Picoté
>>>>> par les blés, fouler l'herbe menue : Rêveur, j'en sentirai la

>>>>> fraîcheur à mes pieds. Je laisserai le vent baigner ma tête

>>>>> nue.
>>>>
>>>>> Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien, Mais l'amour infini

>>>>> me montera dans l'âme ; Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un
>>>>> bohémien, Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.

>>>>
>>>>> - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870
>>>>
>>>> By the blue Summer evenings, I'll walk on the trails, Pecked by
>>>> wheat, treading on short grass : Daydreaming, I'll feel its
>>>> coolness under my feet. I will let the wind bathe my bare
>>>> head.
>>>
>>> BZZT! Rimbaud didn't write free verse. He used meter and rhyme.
>>>
>>
>> In a language that doesn't work at all like English meter rules,
>> based on the tonic accent, but on the actual number of pronounced
>> syllables. I think that poetry can never be translated and that a
>> translation is, at best, a sketch that gives an idea of what the
>> poem is about.
>

> You're right, but the idea that's sketched doesn't necessarily have
> to be the element in the poem that's reducible to prose.
>
> It's also worth mentioning that a translator of genius may sometimes
> surpass the original. William Tyndale's English New Testament and
> Marlowe's /Hero and Leander/ are examples.

>
>> In French I write poems that are deliberately untranslatable,
>> because I use most of the words so that ALL their meanings,
>> including etymological, produce an effect in the reader's mind.
>> For example (one that works both in French and English), I'll use

>> "légende" (legend) as a word that speaks like Latin "legere" (to

>> read), and Greek "legein" and "logos", as well as "collect", etc.
>

> How many such associations do you expect a reader to discover?
>
> If I wrote the word "legend" in a poem, I might be aware of some of
> the connotations you mention as well as others. I might unobtrusively
> associate "legend" with "reverse", "angel" and "Newton" in a way that
> only a numismatist would fully understand, but I'd also try to make
> the words mean something to other readers.
>
> The danger is that one can carry obscurity to the point of
> meaninglessness.
>

It's an old and deep tradition in French poetry that may have its roots
in the Gothic architecture.
If you take the sonnets of Nerval or any of the late poems of Mallarmé,
you won't find any literal meaning, very much like Dürer's engravings in
the Renaissance (like the Angel of Melancholy for example).

>> An entire poem can be based on one of its first words or make
>> touch and goes around the various layers of sense of a given word
>> or group of words.
>

> I think your syntax has gone wrong in this sentence. I don't
> understand it.
>

I mean that I can base a poem around one word, with a sentence based on
one meaning, then coming back and starting another sentence with another
meaning, etc. It's like music: variations on a theme.

>> Rimbaud wrote some poems so that the number of letters would be
>> meaningful. If you sort the letters in "Le loup criait sous les
>> feuilles" you can form the Latin sentence: "O cano cognem lupus
>> chordae" - "I sing and know the heart of the wolf".
>

> No, that "Latin sentence" is gibberish. "Cognem" isn't a Latin word,
> "lupus" is nominative and "chordae" is a genitive form of the wrong
> declension. Try "Cano et cognosco lupi chordem."
>

But not more gibberish than Nostradamus who was also a French poet
sometimes writing in "kitchen Latin".

>> This comes from a poetic tradition that comes from the troubadours
>> and, even before, from the Persian Sufi poets that medieval
>> European poets had been able to read in the Middle East during the
>> Frank Kingdom of Jerusalem.
>>
>>> Your words are dull as dishwater, except for one ("pecked by
>>> wheat"), and that one's just bizarre.
>>
>> Yes, Rimbaud's use of vocabulary is often strange. In Roman he used
>> "Robinson" as a verb for example, and The Illuminations are almost
>> unreadable for someone who would only have a practical knowledge of
>> French. But then the same applies to Nerval and goes even further

>> with Mallarmé who pushed French grammar to its limits, quite like

>> James Joyce in Finnegans Wake sixty years later. Rimbaud's Vowels
>> has no literal meaning.
>

> I enjoy Nerval, Mallarmé and Joyce, while being well aware that I
> miss a lot of what they intended.
>
> But Rimbaud doesn't excite me. He wrote some promising juvenilia,
> then stopped.
>
> <...>
>

He wrote what is to me the most beautiful French sentence in verses in
Le Bateau Ivre:

"- Est-ce en ces nuits sans fonds que tu dors et t'exiles,
Million d'oiseaux d'or, ô future Vigueur ?"

This alone opened the door to Saint-John Perse in the 20th century.

And in order to fully understand these verses, you have to know Latin
and the meaning of some Celtic roots. Gold and birds are some of
Rimbaud's keys to the heart of his poetry, and he used "oiseau" as
"oise-eau", a portmanteau made of the Gallic "oise" and its French
translation "eau" (water).

In A Season In Hell Rimbaud explained his Gallic roots and sort of
re-lived the history of the French language through his own poetic
experiments.
About Rimbaud's central use of "oise", "eau" and "or", there's the poem
"Tear" (Larme) that provides all the keys:
http://abardel.free.fr/petite_anthologie/larme.htm

The first verse should read:

Loin des oise-eaux, des troupes-eaux, des villages-oises, etc.

James Joyce has been initiated by Rimbaud's poetry by Ezra Pound and, to
a lesser extent, Samuel Beckett. "Finnegans Wake" is, in many respects,
an original transposition of Rimbaud's visionary experimentation in the
English language.

[RVG]

Le 14/04/2013 22:41, Peter J Ross a écrit :
> In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Sun, 14 Apr 2013 17:28:49 +0200, RVG
> wrote:
>

>> Le 14/04/2013 14:26, George Dance a écrit :
>>> On Apr 14, 8:08 am, RVG <not.h...@themoment.invalid.org> wrote:

>>>> Le 14/04/2013 12:34, George Dance a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> In hot summer days of shimmering blue I will roam
>>>>> undiscovered frontiers, Where grasses prickle and cool my
>>>>> soles, While cool winds bathe my ears.
>>>>
>>>>> Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think As I wander
>>>>> with nothing to guide me, But an infinite love will grow in
>>>>> my soul As if for a woman beside me.
>>>>
>>>>> - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
>

> "Shimmering blue!"
>
> "Bathe my ears!"
>
> Whoever translated Rimbaud's poem seems to be almost as ignorant of
> French (and English) as the plagiarist who posted it.
>

>>>>> Par les soirs bleus d'été, j'irai dans les sentiers, Picoté
>>>>> par les blés, fouler l'herbe menue : Rêveur, j'en sentirai la

>>>>> fraîcheur à mes pieds. Je laisserai le vent baigner ma tête

>>>>> nue.
>>>>
>>>>> Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien, Mais l'amour infini

>>>>> me montera dans l'âme ; Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un
>>>>> bohémien, Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.

>>>>
>>>>> - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870
>>>>
>>>> By the blue Summer evenings, I'll walk on the trails, Pecked by
>>>> wheat, treading on short grass : Daydreaming, I'll feel its
>>>> coolness under my feet. I will let the wind bathe my bare
>>>> head.
>>>
>>> BZZT! Rimbaud didn't write free verse. He used meter and rhyme.
>>>
>>
>> In a language that doesn't work at all like English meter rules,
>> based on the tonic accent, but on the actual number of pronounced
>> syllables. I think that poetry can never be translated and that a
>> translation is, at best, a sketch that gives an idea of what the
>> poem is about.
>

> You're right, but the idea that's sketched doesn't necessarily have
> to be the element in the poem that's reducible to prose.
>
> It's also worth mentioning that a translator of genius may sometimes
> surpass the original. William Tyndale's English New Testament and
> Marlowe's /Hero and Leander/ are examples.
>

>> In French I write poems that are deliberately untranslatable,
>> because I use most of the words so that ALL their meanings,
>> including etymological, produce an effect in the reader's mind.
>> For example (one that works both in French and English), I'll use

>> "légende" (legend) as a word that speaks like Latin "legere" (to

>> read), and Greek "legein" and "logos", as well as "collect", etc.
>

> How many such associations do you expect a reader to discover?
>
> If I wrote the word "legend" in a poem, I might be aware of some of
> the connotations you mention as well as others. I might unobtrusively
> associate "legend" with "reverse", "angel" and "Newton" in a way that
> only a numismatist would fully understand, but I'd also try to make
> the words mean something to other readers.
>
> The danger is that one can carry obscurity to the point of
> meaninglessness.
>

It's an old and deep tradition in French poetry that may have its roots
in the Gothic architecture.
If you take the sonnets of Nerval or any of the late poems of Mallarmé,
you won't find any literal meaning, very much like Dürer's engravings in
the Renaissance (like the Angel of Melancholy for example).

>> An entire poem can be based on one of its first words or make
>> touch and goes around the various layers of sense of a given word
>> or group of words.
>

> I think your syntax has gone wrong in this sentence. I don't
> understand it.
>

I mean that I can base a poem around one word, with a sentence based on
one meaning, then coming back and starting another sentence with another
meaning, etc. It's like music: variations on a theme.

>> Rimbaud wrote some poems so that the number of letters would be
>> meaningful. If you sort the letters in "Le loup criait sous les
>> feuilles" you can form the Latin sentence: "O cano cognem lupus
>> chordae" - "I sing and know the heart of the wolf".
>

> No, that "Latin sentence" is gibberish. "Cognem" isn't a Latin word,
> "lupus" is nominative and "chordae" is a genitive form of the wrong
> declension. Try "Cano et cognosco lupi chordem."
>

But not more gibberish than Nostradamus who was also a French poet

sometimes writing in "kitchen Latin".

>> This comes from a poetic tradition that comes from the troubadours
>> and, even before, from the Persian Sufi poets that medieval
>> European poets had been able to read in the Middle East during the
>> Frank Kingdom of Jerusalem.
>>
>>> Your words are dull as dishwater, except for one ("pecked by
>>> wheat"), and that one's just bizarre.
>>
>> Yes, Rimbaud's use of vocabulary is often strange. In Roman he used
>> "Robinson" as a verb for example, and The Illuminations are almost
>> unreadable for someone who would only have a practical knowledge of
>> French. But then the same applies to Nerval and goes even further

>> with Mallarmé who pushed French grammar to its limits, quite like

>> James Joyce in Finnegans Wake sixty years later. Rimbaud's Vowels
>> has no literal meaning.
>

> I enjoy Nerval, Mallarmé and Joyce, while being well aware that I
> miss a lot of what they intended.
>
> But Rimbaud doesn't excite me. He wrote some promising juvenilia,
> then stopped.
>
> <...>
>

He wrote what is to me the most beautiful French sentence in verses in
Le Bateau Ivre:

"- Est-ce en ces nuits sans fonds que tu dors et t'exiles,
Million d'oiseaux d'or, ô future Vigueur ?"

This alone opened the door to Saint-John Perse in the 20th century.

And in order to fully understand these verses, you have to know Latin
and the meaning of some Celtic roots. Gold and birds are some of
Rimbaud's keys to the heart of his poetry, and he used "oiseau" as
"oise-eau", a portmanteau made of the Gallic "oise" and its French
translation "eau" (water).

In A Season In Hell Rimbaud explained his Gallic roots and sort of
re-lived the history of the French language through his own poetic
experiments.
About Rimbaud's central use of "oise", "eau" and "or", there's the poem
"Tear" (Larme) that provides all the keys:
http://abardel.free.fr/petite_anthologie/larme.htm

The first verse should read:

Loin des oise-eaux, des troupes-eaux, des villages-oises, etc.

James Joyce has been initiated to Rimbaud's poetry by Ezra Pound and, to

a lesser extent, Samuel Beckett. "Finnegans Wake" is, in many respects,
an original transposition of Rimbaud's visionary experimentation in the
English language.

[Will Dockery]

"RVG" a �crit :

<snip for focus>

> Yes, Rimbaud's use of vocabulary is often strange. In Roman he used
> "Robinson" as a verb for example, and The Illuminations are almost
> unreadable for someone who would only have a practical knowledge of
> French.

Interesting about Rimbaud's use of "Robinson", Jean-Luc Godard also paid
homage/made use of this reference in his work, defining it as /escapism/ or
getting the the desert isle/isolated setting.

I may have posted on this online, I did reference it myself in poetry, as
well as spent some time thinking of it over the years.

[RVG]

Le 15/04/2013 13:52, Will Dockery a �crit :

Melville and Poe have had a deep influence on French poets of the late
19th century. Baudelaire was the urban poet par excellence, but
Rimbaud's inner landscape mixes elements of his own souvenirs on the
countryside and the Commune revolution with imaginary visions of distant
continents ("incroyables Florides") and strange cities as in Villes
(Illuminations).

Here with Britten's music:
http://youtu.be/UXDdJqfwnIY

[Will Dockery]

"RVG" <not....@themoment.invalid.org> wrote in message

news:kkgq5a$e50$1...@blueduskconspiracy.eternal-september.org...

Yes, sort of puts me in the mind of the "Gloomy Dream Movie" that Jack
Kerouac so often described.

[RVG]

Le 15/04/2013 14:14, Will Dockery a �crit :

>
> "RVG" <not....@themoment.invalid.org> wrote in message
> news:kkgq5a$e50$1...@blueduskconspiracy.eternal-september.org...
>> Le 15/04/2013 13:52, Will Dockery a �crit :
>>>
>>> "RVG" a �crit :
>>>
>>> <snip for focus>
>>>
>>>> Yes, Rimbaud's use of vocabulary is often strange. In Roman he
>>>> used "Robinson" as a verb for example, and The Illuminations
>>>> are almost unreadable for someone who would only have a
>>>> practical knowledge of French.
>>>
>>> Interesting about Rimbaud's use of "Robinson", Jean-Luc Godard
>>> also paid homage/made use of this reference in his work, defining
>>> it as /escapism/ or getting the the desert isle/isolated
>>> setting.
>>>
>>> I may have posted on this online, I did reference it myself in
>>> poetry, as well as spent some time thinking of it over the
>>> years.
>>>
>>
>> Melville and Poe have had a deep influence on French poets of the
>> late 19th century. Baudelaire was the urban poet par excellence,
>> but Rimbaud's inner landscape mixes elements of his own souvenirs
>> on the countryside and the Commune revolution with imaginary
>> visions of distant continents ("incroyables Florides") and strange
>> cities as in Villes (Illuminations).
>>
>> Here with Britten's music: http://youtu.be/UXDdJqfwnIY
>>

> Yes, sort of puts me in the mind of the "Gloomy Dream Movie" that
> Jack Kerouac so often described.
>
>

http://maddogblues-jackpersons.blogspot.fr/2011/12/rimbaud-by-jack-kerouac.html

[Will Dockery]

"RVG" <not....@themoment.invalid.org> wrote in message

news:kkgrh0$nhb$1...@blueduskconspiracy.eternal-september.org...

Ah yes, I remember reading this years ago, I think in the little City Lights
collection called "Scattered Poems", and not since.

I've read that Kerouac said he "thought" in French still, didn't even speak
English until he was around five years old... and of course poets such as
Rimbaud and Baudelaire lit the way for the Beat poets.

[George Dance]

It has all the imagery, but none of the sounds (no meter or rhyme, but
also no assonances or consonances); so in that sense it gives an
incomplete picture of Rimbaud and what he accomplished. It is true,
though, that one can't get everything perfect (which I think is what
RVG means by poetry being untranslatable - you have to lose something
of the original).

Here's a 1912 translation, by Jethro Bithell, that works hard to both
transcribe the language and also give as much of the rhyme and meter
as possible. He keeps all the end-rhymes (though he loses the internal
rhymes) and a consistent meter (though he substitutes IP for Rimbaud's
Alexandrines):

In summer evenings blue, pricked by the wheat
On rustic paths the thin grass I shall tread,
And feel its freshness underneath my feet,
And, dreaming, let the wind bathe my bare head.

I shall not speak, nor think, but, walking slow
Through Nature, I shall rove with Love my guide,
As gipsies wander, where, they do not know,
Happy as one walks by a woman's side.

[Chuck Lysaght]

Pete. George is not a plagiarist.

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, April 15, 2013 7:01:26 PM UTC-4, Chuck Lysaght wrote:
> Pete. George is not a plagiarist.

No George isn't, but Pete's friend Michael Cook was, and Pete never fails to launch a hypocritical defense for Cook whenever this fact is brought up.

[Will Dockery]

George Dance wrote:
>
> It has all the imagery, but none of the sounds (no meter or rhyme, but
>
> also no assonances or consonances); so in that sense it gives an
>
> incomplete picture of Rimbaud and what he accomplished. It is true,
>
> though, that one can't get everything perfect (which I think is what
>
> RVG means by poetry being untranslatable - you have to lose something
>
> of the original).

True, I have to agree that a proper translation would have to repeat Rimbaud's rhymes and patterns as well as the imagery. Of course, not knowing French this escaped my attention.

Thus, here's yet another translation that while nailing the vision of Rimbaud, ignores the poetic craft and form, this translation by Wyatt Mason.

http://wonderingminstrels.blogspot.com/2004/06/sensation-arthur-rimbaud.html

Sensation

Through blue summer nights I will pass along paths,
Pricked by wheat, trampling short grass:
Dreaming, I will feel coolness underfoot,
Will let breezes bathe my bare head.

Not a word, not a thought:
Boundless love will surge through my soul,
And I will wander far away, a vagabond
In Nature - as happily as with a woman.

-Arthur Rimbaud / trans. Wyatt Mason

[Will Dockery]

George Dance wrote:

> Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > While I like your translation pretty good, George, I also like the literal translation:
>
> > By the blue summer evenings, I go down the paths,
> > Pricked by the corn, trampling the grass:
> > Dreamer, I feel its coolness on my feet.
> > I let the wind bathe my bare head.
>
> > I will not speak, I shall think nothing
> > But infinite love will mount in my soul;
> > And I will go far, very far, like a gipsy,
> > By nature, happy-as with a woman.
>
> > - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870
>
> It has all the imagery, but none of the sounds (no meter or rhyme, but
> also no assonances or consonances); so in that sense it gives an
> incomplete picture of Rimbaud and what he accomplished.

This stuck with me and seems will stick higher with me from now on when I think about Rimbaud, which I do every few months at least.

Goes back to a few years ago, again, when I was comparing my translated copies of Rimbaud books, Paul Schmidt's, which I have preferred sometimes, versus another (I may check his name when I head that way going for a coffee, name escapes me) translator who put all the same verses in a sing-songy rhyme.

At the time I wasn't so fond of rhyme in poetry, or sometimes even in songs.

Anyway, I was just looking around this morning at Rimbaud pages on the web and found an interesting group of comments and critiques, I'll excerpt one of real note and elvance here:

http://www.amazon.com/review/R1Z3LJ9I0U901Q/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R1Z3LJ9I0U901Q

"...Schmidt has produced some very good English-language poetry, but it ain't Rimbaud. He conceals this by not printing the original on a facing page. Worse yet, he prints the Illuminations as free verse, when they were written as prose poems (on the rationale that the prose poem isn't as successful a genre in English as it is in French.) I am sternly against this kind of translation, unless you're going to go all the way and admit that what you're doing is a poem by Paul Schmidt "after" Rimbaud. But he doesn't."

Point being that a translation needs to stick as closely to what the origonal poet intended as it can.

[Chuck Lysaght]

Run along, Pete. Nobody wants you here.

[George Dance]

On Apr 16, 9:19 am, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
> George Dance wrote:
> > Will Dockery wrote:
>
> > > While I like your translation pretty good, George, I also like the literal translation:
>
> > > By the blue summer evenings, I go down the paths,
> > > Pricked by the corn, trampling the grass:
> > > Dreamer, I feel its coolness on my feet.
> > > I let the wind bathe my bare head.
>
> > > I will not speak, I shall think nothing
> > > But infinite love will mount in my soul;
> > > And I will go far, very far, like a gipsy,
> > > By nature, happy-as with a woman.
>
> > > - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870
>
> > It has all the imagery, but none of the sounds (no meter or rhyme, but
> > also no assonances or consonances); so in that sense it gives an
> > incomplete picture of Rimbaud and what he accomplished.
>
> This stuck with me and seems will stick higher with me from now on when I think about Rimbaud, which I do every few months at least.
>
> Goes back to a few years ago, again, when I was comparing my translated copies of Rimbaud books, Paul Schmidt's, which I have preferred sometimes, versus another (I may check his name when I head that way going for a coffee, name escapes me) translator who put all the same verses in a sing-songy rhyme.
>
> At the time I wasn't so fond of rhyme in poetry, or sometimes even in songs.
>
> Anyway, I was just looking around this morning at Rimbaud pages on the web and found an interesting group of comments and critiques, I'll excerpt one of real note and elvance here:
>

> http://www.amazon.com/review/R1Z3LJ9I0U901Q/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R1Z3...

>
> "...Schmidt has produced some very good English-language poetry, but it ain't Rimbaud. He conceals this by not printing the original on a facing page. Worse yet, he prints the Illuminations as free verse, when they were written as prose poems (on the rationale that the prose poem isn't as successful a genre in English as it is in French.) I am sternly against this kind of translation, unless you're going to go all the way and admit that what you're doing is a poem by Paul Schmidt "after" Rimbaud. But he doesn't."
>
> Point being that a translation needs to stick as closely to what the origonal poet intended as it can.

That's a good point. The problem is that, by sticking as close as
possible to both message and sound, one can end up with a crappy poem.
Case in point being Kline's.

I certainly can't call myself the faithful one here; though I keep
insisting that Rimbaud's rhymed poems should be written in rhyme, I
usually use a weaker rhyme scheme (here, eg, he uses a-b-a-b, while I
do a-b-c-b). And while I'll try to keep his main thoughts and images,
I will cut some things, add others, and reverse the order of others.

I wonder if I should be calling these poems of my own "after" or "with
apologies to" Rimbaud. I don't really like the idea, becauase I think
it takes too much credit away from him: I think they're his ideas, and
his development, that I've merely had a chance (because of the
accident of language) to work on a bit.

[George Dance]

On Apr 14, 6:34 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> In hot summer days of shimmering blue
> I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
> Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
> While cool winds bathe my ears.
>
> Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
> As I wander with nothing to guide me,
> But an infinite love will grow in my soul
> As if for a woman beside me.
>
> - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
>

> Par les soirs bleus d'été, j'irai dans les sentiers,
> Picoté par les blés, fouler l'herbe menue :
> Rêveur, j'en sentirai la fraîcheur à mes pieds.
> Je laisserai le vent baigner ma tête nue.
>
> Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,
> Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l'âme ;
> Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
> Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.
>
> - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870

Second draft:

In the hot summer days of shimmering blue
I will wander uncharted frontiers
Where the grasses are prickling and cooling my soles
And the breezes are bathing my ears.

Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
As I wander with nothing to guide me

But my soul will be filled with unlimited love,

[Will Dockery]

On Tuesday, April 16, 2013 7:08:35 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:

Personally, if the poem is intended as a translation, I prefer to give the poet the actual poem comes from top billing, but the new English versions might be considered collaboration.

[Gwyneth]

On 14/04/13 12:31, George Dance wrote:
> On Apr 14, 7:08 am, Hieronymous House <hieronymous...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> 6:34 AMGeorge Dance
>>

>> In hot summer days of shimmering blue
>> I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
>> Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
>> While cool winds bathe my ears.
>>
>> Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
>> As I wander with nothing to guide me,
>> But an infinite love will grow in my soul
>> As if for a woman beside me.
>>
>> - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
>>

>> Par les soirs bleus d'�t�, j'irai dans les sentiers,
>> Picot� par les bl�s, fouler l'herbe menue :

>> R�veur, j'en sentirai la fra�cheur � mes pieds.
>> Je laisserai le vent baigner ma t�te nue.

>>
>> Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,

>> Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l'�me ;
>> Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un boh�mien,

>> Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.
>>
>> - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870
>>

>> I don't know that I can help you much here, George.
>> Translation isn't really my thing, and I don't speak much French.
>>

>> By the blue summer evenings, I go down the paths,
>> Pricked by the corn, trampling the grass:
>> Dreamer, I feel its coolness on my feet.
>> I let the wind bathe my bare head.
>>
>> I will not speak, I shall think nothing
>> But infinite love will mount in my soul;
>> And I will go far, very far, like a gipsy,

>> By nature, happy- as with a woman.
>
> That's OK; I don't think it needs much help.
>
> The important goals in translation are, in order of priority
>
> (1) to keep all of the original's thoughts and images, and language,
> (2) to keep as much of his sound (meter, rhymes, alliterations, etc.)
> as possible,
> (3) to use the best possible words in the best possible order given
> the above constraints.

I don't know where you got these ideas from, but I'd dispute them.
You might want to clarify whether you mean translation in general or
translation of poetry, but your points are highly debatable whichever
you are referring to.

There isn't enough space and time here to discuss in full, but here are
some of my thoughts on the subject:

A text consists of both form and content. A well written (literary
rather than commercial) text can work on many levels and often
communicates far more than a superficial understanding of the literal
meanings of the words can reveal.

The intention of the writer is paramount in a translation, as is the
effect of the text on the expected/intended readership.

(This may tie in with the preference of many poets not to specify 'what
the poem means' - it doesn't have a single meaning: individual words
often cannot be explained because their value lies in where they are in
the whole context of the piece and within the larger picture of culture
and heritage in which the text has been written; words are selected for
their sound, the way they work metrically, their connotations, their
relationship to other words used, etc.)

Even when the original text is (superficially) clear, and where literal
one-to-one relationships exist between source and target lexis, the
images and concepts in the source language may need to be replaced by
other images and concepts in order to communicate the writer's intent
and to recreate in the target-language reader's mind something akin to
the effect produced in the source-language reader's mind when the poem
is read.

It may also be inappropriate to use the techniques used in the source
language as these build on centuries of cultural and linguistic heritage
which may not be shared by the target language. The same technique or
the same form may have an entirely different use (and connotation) in
the target language.

I believe that, in general, sound is used differently in Romance
languages, where rhymes occur easily and naturally compared to English
which has few regular patterns for word endings etc. In English, for
example, full rhyme can sound facile and forced, whereas in Spanish it's
less obtrusive because it's so natural.

I think French is like Spanish, which is syllable-timed as opposed to
stress-timed, so metre works differently.

Lexis is used differently from culture to culture: words such as 'love',
'soul' etc have hugely different implications and connotations in
different languages.

Your suggestions that you should keep thoughts, images, language and
sound elements from the original makes it highly unlikely that a
translation of a poem will work as a poem in the target language.

And if translating is going to produce an inadequate poem - e.g. one
that doesn't do justice to the original and suggests to the reader that
the original is trite and ineffective - I'd suggest it might be better
not to bother, or to settle for a translation that doesn't attempt to be
a poem, maybe even an annotated prose translation.

g.

[Gwyneth]

On 15/04/13 11:50, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> "RVG" <not....@themoment.invalid.org> wrote in message
> news:kke5fe$61s$1...@blueduskconspiracy.eternal-september.org...
>> Le 14/04/2013 13:42, Peter J Ross a écrit :
>>
>>> This and other translations of French authors certainly can't have been
>>> written by George Dance. He's admitted in the past that he doesn't
>>> even speak French:
>>
>> I do, and this translation sucks, whoever made it.
>>

(...)

>
> As with subtitles in a movie, there's the understanding that the
> translated poem will very likely be inferior to the original, and
> sometimes the best course may be to go /transforative/ on the piece,
> echo the original, yet make it your own.
>

I know you've said 'very likely', not 'always', but I don't like the
assumption that translations are usually inferior.

Subtitles are usually commercial ventures produced to deadlines and are
governed by screen timing, average reading speeds etc., so the writers
have huge practical limitations imposed on them.

Translations - particularly of poetry - are often labours of love, and
some translators work on a piece for as long as - or longer than - the
original writer. Translations don't have to be inferior to the originals.

When we write a poem, I think each revision and re-draft is intended to
take us one step closer to the "Ideal Poem" - the best possible version
of the poem we are trying to write. That "best" may sometimes be limited
not only by our personal ability as poets, but also by the language we
are working in. (Anyone who speaks more than one language knows that
certain ideas are better expressed in one than in another, whether it be
due to the vocabularly available or the underlying thought processes
that grammar and structure encourage.)

I believe that there are occasions when a translator can take a poem
farther along the path towards the "Ideal", and the translated poem may
actually be better than the original.

[RVG]

Le 15/04/2013 19:45, Will Dockery a �crit :

Lawrence Ferlinghetti too was fluent in French.

Here with Kerouac on a Radio Canada documentary on the beat generation:
http://youtu.be/xrzbkopDBHY

[George Dance]

On Apr 14, 6:50 pm, "Will Dockery" <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Hieronymous House" <hieronymous...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:847df377-3be5-431a...@googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Sic semper tyrannis.
>
> Translation handy?

"Always thus to tyrants"

But what was the context? Now that the post's been deleted, I have no
idea what he thinks was always thus.

[George Dance]

On Apr 17, 10:34 am, Gwyneth <gwyn...@patchword.com> wrote:
> On 14/04/13 12:31, George Dance wrote:
>
> > On Apr 14, 7:08 am, Hieronymous House <hieronymous...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> 6:34 AMGeorge Dance
>
> >> In hot summer days of shimmering blue
> >> I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
> >> Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
> >> While cool winds bathe my ears.
>
> >> Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
> >> As I wander with nothing to guide me,
> >> But an infinite love will grow in my soul
> >> As if for a woman beside me.
>
> >> - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
>

> >> Par les soirs bleus d' t , j'irai dans les sentiers,
> >> Picot par les bl s, fouler l'herbe menue :
> >> R veur, j'en sentirai la fra cheur mes pieds.
> >> Je laisserai le vent baigner ma t te nue.

>
> >> Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,

> >> Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l' me ;
> >> Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un boh mien,

> >> Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.
>
> >> - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870
>
> >> I don't know that I can help you much here, George.
> >> Translation isn't really my thing, and I don't speak much French.
>
> >> By the blue summer evenings, I go down the paths,
> >> Pricked by the corn, trampling the grass:
> >> Dreamer, I feel its coolness on my feet.
> >> I let the wind bathe my bare head.
>
> >> I will not speak, I shall think nothing
> >> But infinite love will mount in my soul;
> >> And I will go far, very far, like a gipsy,
> >> By nature, happy- as with a woman.
>
> > That's OK; I don't think it needs much help.
>
> > The important goals in translation are, in order of priority
>

<quote>

> > (1) to keep all of the original's thoughts and images,

> > (2) to keep as much of his language as possible,
> > (3) to keep as much of his sound (meter, rhymes, alliterations, etc.)
as possible,
> > (4) to use the best possible words in the best possible order given
> > the above constraints.
</quote>

(I substituted the revised list which I'd posted four minutes later. I
hope that's quite all right.)

> I don't know where you got these ideas from, but I'd dispute them.
> You might want to clarify whether you mean translation in general or
> translation of poetry,

I was thinking about poetry, but I can see the list's application to
prose. One wouldn't worry about meter in prose, but sound would still
be a consideration.

> but your points are highly debatable whichever
> you are referring to.
>
> There isn't enough space and time here to discuss in full, but here are
> some of my thoughts on the subject:
>
> A text consists of both form and content. A well written (literary
> rather than commercial) text can work on many levels and often
> communicates far more than a superficial understanding of the literal
> meanings of the words can reveal.
>

Form and content aren't two different things, of course. There's only
one thing there, the text. Form and content aren't even different
aspects of the text; they're merely collective terms that refer to the
various aspects I tried to enumerate: the thoughts, images, language,
sounds, et al. I think using those terms would give an lessaccurate
picture, since some of the content has a higher priority, and since
the terms can also refer to the translator's original contributions
(point 4).

> The intention of the writer is paramount in a translation, as is the
> effect of the text on the expected/intended readership.
>

In most all cases, the only way to divine the writer's intention is by
reading the text, and the only way to divine the effect on readers is
by judging the effect of the text on oneself. In those cases, I can't
see the intention as being any different from her or his thoughts (in
the broad sense, including images and emotions) that one discerns in
or behind the text -- point (1), which I've given the highest
priority -- or the effect as being any different from whether the
reader gets the same thoughts (i.t.b.s.). So I don't see any dispute
here, either.

> (This may tie in with the preference of many poets not to specify 'what
> the poem means' - it doesn't have a single meaning: individual words
> often cannot be explained because their value lies in where they are in
> the whole context of the piece and within the larger picture of culture
> and heritage in which the text has been written; words are selected for
> their sound, the way they work metrically, their connotations, their
> relationship to other words used, etc.)

I dislike specifying that because 'what the poem means' is so vague:
it could refer to theme, plot, subject, or even raison d'etre. In any
case, though, I see this as a digression; it may tie in, but I don't
see any tie-in.

>
> Even when the original text is (superficially) clear, and where literal
> one-to-one relationships exist between source and target lexis, the
> images and concepts in the source language may need to be replaced by
> other images and concepts in order to communicate the writer's intent
> and to recreate in the target-language reader's mind something akin to
> the effect produced in the source-language reader's mind when the poem
> is read.

Because words have more than a literal meaning, I'd argue that
substituting words can give a better sense of the language (I have one
of Rimbaud's speakers getting 'high'); and I'd agree that in a similar
way one can even change an image to heighten it's impact (In one
Garneau poem, I have death sounding like an 'alarm' rather than the
original 'bell'). But substitution there should be done sparingly, and
always with a view of enhancing the original, not changing it.

>
> It may also be inappropriate to use the techniques used in the source
> language as these build on centuries of cultural and linguistic > heritage
> which may not be shared by the target language. The same technique or
> the same form may have an entirely different use (and connotation) in
> the target language.
>

If you're talking about form, again I'd agree (or concede, if you'd
prefer) up to a point. For example, if a French poet uses anapests, or
an Italian hexadecimalles, I'd say he's simply using the default form
for that language, and I'd probably translate into iambic pentameter
because it's the default form of English poetry. But only up to a
point; that point is on a bright line that one shouldn't cross. A
metered poem should be translated into meter, a poem in quatrains into
quatrains, etc.

> I believe that, in general, sound is used differently in Romance
> languages, where rhymes occur easily and naturally compared to English
> which has few regular patterns for word endings etc. In English, for
> example, full rhyme can sound facile and forced, whereas in Spanish it's
> less obtrusive because it's so natural.

For the same reasons as the last paragraph, I also think that one
should convey that the original poet wrote in rhyme. I usually don't
keep all the rhymes, since trying to keep all of them can entail
distorting the poet's original language (which may be the reason for
that 'facile or forced' sound you hear. I'd cite Mr. Kline's
translation (at the end of this post) as an exemplar).

In my list of priorities, language (point 2) has precedence over
rhyme (point 3), so I'll usually opt for a simpler rhyme scheme. For
instance, in "Sensation," I left out the internal rhymes, and
substituted a-b-c-d endrhymes for Rimaud's a-b-a-b. Reducing
instances of rhyme makes sense when, as here, rhyme occurs less in
English than in the original language - it's seen as natural, not
forced on the poem by the poet.

That should not be seen, of course, as an excuse to abandon meter
altogether.

> I think French is like Spanish, which is syllable-timed as opposed to
> stress-timed, so metre works differently.
>

That's partly true. English verse isn't purely stress-timed, as Old
English was, but syllable-timed as well. There's a tremendous French
influence on English verse, both lexically and metrically, and that
should be acknowledged in any French-English translation. One can, as
I said above, substitute meters to some extent.

That should not be seen, of course, as an excuse to abandon rhyme
altogether.

> Lexis is used differently from culture to culture: words such as 'love',
> 'soul' etc have hugely different implications and connotations in
> different languages.

There is a wide correspondence between French and English, and I rely
on that; enough between their ideas of religion and romance that I see
no problems in translating 'amour' and 'ame' as 'love' and 'soul'. In
still other cases, French and English contain the same words, and I
try to keep any of those I encounter. ('Debris' and 'ennui' are two
that come to mind from past translations.)

But even when translating Chinese (which I can't read, and have to
rely on an English transcript), I find it best to use the original
words. Where a Tu Fu transcript has 'fire', I'll translate it as
'fire' or a synonym. The same with any sensed object: wind, hair,
pins, whatever. We don't sense differently, no matter our culture.

>
> Your suggestions that you should keep thoughts, images, language and
> sound elements from the original makes it highly unlikely that a
> translation of a poem will work as a poem in the target language.
>

One certainly can't keep all of those (to answer P.J. Ross's
strawman); which is precisely why I tried to specify, in my above
list, which aspects have priority in my translations. Not keeping
them, though, will mean not translating: the resulting poem may 'work'
very well, but it works as an original poem (perhaps 'inspired by' the
original), not as a translation.

> And if translating is going to produce an inadequate poem - e.g. one
> that doesn't do justice to the original and suggests to the reader that
> the original is trite and ineffective - I'd suggest it might be better
> not to bother, or to settle for a translation that doesn't attempt to be
> a poem, maybe even an annotated prose translation.

That's true. But I disagree with your hypothetical, and therefore with
your conclusion. I think it's always been possible to produce faithful
translations that 'work' very well (the prose poetry of the King James
Bible being a paradigm example).

Putting your dispute in terms of my list, I'd say that you would give
the highest priority to point (4) - producing your best effort. Which
is your right: a poet is a creative writer, by definition, and no one
else can put limits on his or her creativity. Nor would I necessarily
disparage the result, necessarily.

For instance, if you'd care to venture a translation (of "Sensation"
or anything else) that illustrates your above points, I'd enjoy
reading it.

>
>
> > Your translation satisfies (1), but fails (2) and (3). Here's a
> > translation that  satisfes (1) and (2), but IMO fails (3) (again IMO,
> > because it tries too hard to satisfy (2) - it tries to keep *all* the
> > rhyme, and ends up with some forced rhymes and some weak ones):
>
> >                     (Sensation)
>
> > Through the blue summer days, I shall travel all the ways,
> > Pricked by the ears of maize, trampling the dew:
> > A dreamer, I will gaze, as underfoot the coolness plays.

> > I ll let the evening breeze drench my head anew.
>
> > I shall say not a thing: I shall think not a thing:

> > But an infinite love will swell in my soul,
> > And far off I shall go, a bohemian,

> > Through Nature as happy, as if I had a girl.

[George Dance]

On Apr 16, 7:11 pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 6:34 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In hot summer days of shimmering blue
> > I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
> > Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
> > While cool winds bathe my ears.
>
> > Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
> > As I wander with nothing to guide me,
> > But an infinite love will grow in my soul
> > As if for a woman beside me.
>
> > - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
>
> > Par les soirs bleus d'été, j'irai dans les sentiers,
> > Picoté par les blés, fouler l'herbe menue :
> > Rêveur, j'en sentirai la fraîcheur à mes pieds.
> > Je laisserai le vent baigner ma tête nue.
>
> > Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,
> > Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l'âme ;
> > Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
> > Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.
>
> > - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870
>

Third draft:

> Second draft:
>
> In the hot summer days of shimmering blue
> I will wander uncharted frontiers
> Where the grasses are prickling and cooling my soles

> And breezes are bathing my ears.

"Where grasses are prickling and cooling my soles
And breezes are bathing my ears"

>
> Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think

"Not a word will I speak; not a thought will I think"

> As I wander with nothing to guide me
> But my soul will be filled with unlimited love,

"But my soul will be filled with unlimited love"

> As if for a woman beside me.
>
> - translated by George Dance

LL 3-4: Cutting "the" gives a looser rhythm, which I think corresponds
better to the rhythm of 'wandering'; if the speaker were dancing or
marching, I'd go for the tighter rhythm.

L5: Adds an internal consonence (speak - think) - something suggestive
of, though weaker than, an internal rhyme.

L7: Eliminates the last end punctuation.

[George Dance]

On Apr 20, 11:36 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> In most all cases, the only way to divine the writer's intention is by
> reading the text,

In *most cases*

>
> If you're talking about form, again I'd agree (or concede, if you'd
> prefer) up to a point. For example, if a French poet uses anapests, or

If a French poet uses *alexandrines*

> > I believe that, in general, sound is used differently in Romance
> > languages, where rhymes occur easily and naturally compared to English
> > which has few regular patterns for word endings etc. In English, for
> > example, full rhyme can sound facile and forced, whereas in Spanish it's
> > less obtrusive because it's so natural.
>
> For the same reasons as the last paragraph, I also think that one
> should  convey that the original poet wrote in rhyme. I usually don't

I *think that one should also* convey

> substituted a-b-c-d endrhymes for Rimaud's a-b-a-b.  Reducing
> instances of rhyme makes sense when, as here, rhyme occurs less in
> English than in the original language - it's seen as natural, not
> forced on the poem by the poet.
>
> That should not be seen, of course, as an excuse to abandon meter
> altogether.
>

to abandon *rhyme* altogether.

> should be acknowledged in any French-English translation. One can, as
> I said above, substitute meters to some extent.
>
> That should not be seen, of course, as an excuse to abandon rhyme
> altogether.
>

as an excuse to abandon *meter* altogether.

[George Dance]

> On Apr 16, 7:11 pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > On Apr 14, 6:34 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> > > In hot summer days of shimmering blue
> > > I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
> > > Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
> > > While cool winds bathe my ears.
> > > Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
> > > As I wander with nothing to guide me,
> > > But an infinite love will grow in my soul
> > > As if for a woman beside me.
> > > - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
> > > Par les soirs bleus d'été, j'irai dans les sentiers,
> > > Picoté par les blés, fouler l'herbe menue :
> > > Rêveur, j'en sentirai la fraîcheur à mes pieds.
> > > Je laisserai le vent baigner ma tête nue.
> > > Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,
> > > Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l'âme ;
> > > Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
> > > Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.
> > > - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870

Fourth draft:
My fourth draft was insipired by John Wallis's "shall/ill" rule:
"The rule is [...] to express a future event without emotional
overtones, one should say I shall, we shall, but you/he/she/they
will;
conversely, for emphasis, willfulness, or insistence, one should say
I/
we will, but you/he/she/they shall".("Shall and Will," Wikipedia)
I tried using "shall", and liked the alliteration with "shimmering"
in
the first line; the "sh" sound now shimmers down the poem.
I added a few minor changes that didn't merit a draft of their own: I
finished cutting all end-line punctuation (including full stops at
the end of the stanzas), and restored some wording from previous
lines.

It looks as though, barring some unforeseen events, this will be the
final:

In the hot summer days of shimmering blue

I shall wander uncharted frontiers
With the grasses prickling and cooling my soles
And the breezes bathing my ears

Not a word shall I speak, not a thought shall I think

As I wander with nothing to guide me

But my soul shall be filled with unlimited love

As if for a woman beside me

- translated by George J. Dance

[Gwyneth]

On 18/04/13 17:30, Peter J Ross wrote:
> In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:34:00 +0100,

> Gwyneth wrote:
>
>> On 14/04/13 12:31, George Dance wrote:
>

> <assorted drivel, some of it plagiarised, snipped>

(Snipping throughout to focus on one particular aspect of the discussion)

>
>>> The important goals in translation are, in order of priority
>>>
>>> (1) to keep all of the original's thoughts and images, and language,
>>> (2) to keep as much of his sound (meter, rhymes, alliterations, etc.)
>>> as possible,
>>> (3) to use the best possible words in the best possible order given
>>> the above constraints.
>>
>> I don't know where you got these ideas from, but I'd dispute them.
>

> "The ideal translation expresses the meaning and nuances of the
> original text using the same number of words in the same order and
> grammatical sequence and with the same effects of sound and rhythm -
> in other words, the ideal translation is unattainable."
> - Michael Crudden
>
I'll agree that a perfect translation is unattainable.

I've often wondered, though, if a translation of e.g. French or Italian
to Spanish might stand a better chance of success than one of French,
Italian or Spanish to English).
Here's the first Spanish translation of Rimbaud's poem which I've found
online:
http://www.amediavoz.com/rimbaud.htm#SENSACIÓN
It's a fairly free translation, but e.g. " dejaré que el viento me bañe
la cabeza." is quite literal (lacking only 'naked') and works fine - by
which I mean that it doesn't sound the least bit risible and, as far as
I can tell, achieves the same tone as the French.
It would work fine with 'cabeza desnuda', too, and in a literal
translation of the first stanza L2 & L4 rhyme 'menuda' with 'desnuda'.

(...)

>> A text consists of both form and content. A well written (literary
>> rather than commercial) text can work on many levels and often
>> communicates far more than a superficial understanding of the literal
>> meanings of the words can reveal.
>>
>> The intention of the writer is paramount in a translation, as is the
>> effect of the text on the expected/intended readership.
>

> If one happens to know the writer, or if his intentions have been made
> public, one may be able to translate in accordance with his
> intentions. If his intentions are poorly realised in his text, that's
> one of the ways in which a translation can be an improvement on the
> original.
>
I should have said "perceived intention" rather than simply "intention".
But even if some of the intentions are unclear, I think some can usually
be accurately inferred.

If there is apparent wordplay in a poem by a competent poet, I suspect
it is intentional.

If I write a poem and have it published as a mass-market birthday card,
I suspect my intention regarding that piece could reasonably be
understood to be quite different from that regarding another piece which
I keep working at over a period of years and then have published in a
literary magazine.

(...)

>> Lexis is used differently from culture to culture: words such as 'love',
>> 'soul' etc have hugely different implications and connotations in
>> different languages.
>

> The greatest French poems from Machaut to Baudelaire are full of
> "heart and soul" language that isn't literally translatable into
> English without being reduced to pop-song levels.

This is, at least in part, what I'm getting at: I'm sure the *intent* of
many French (and Spanish) poets who write "heart and soul" poems is
still to write good poetry. They aren't aiming to produce something
saccharine sweet and suitable only for pop-songs or birthday cards.
Unless the translator can achieve a similar lightness of touch and
simplicity they risk giving an entirely erroneous impression of the
original.

Perfect regular rhyme and "heart-and-soul" lexis seem to work in French
without connoting anything negative: they produce a simple, "naive"
effect; in English, however, all too often they make the poem sound like
doggerel - the attraction of the simplicity is lost.

I understand the need/desire for translations. (And as a translator, I
am really glad the Babel Fish doesn't exist.) But there are many poems I
would not attempt to translate as poetry because, although I can
appreciate them in their original, I see that transplanting them to
English would probably kill them.

Incidentally, Peter, thanks for all the references included in your
answer. I will pursue some of them.

g.

(...)

[George Dance]

On Apr 23, 1:50 am, Gwyneth <gwyn...@patchword.com> wrote:
> On 18/04/13 17:30, Peter J Ross wrote:
>
> > In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Wed, 17 Apr 2013 15:34:00 +0100,
> > Gwyneth wrote:
>
> >> On 14/04/13 12:31, George Dance wrote:
> > <assorted drivel, some of it plagiarised, snipped>
>
> (Snipping throughout to focus on one particular aspect of the discussion)
>

If that's what you want to focus on, then focus on it. You can start
by showing which parts of what I wrote were allegedly plagiarized, and
the alleged evidence for that.

Alternatively, if that's not what you want to focus on it, then you
can snip the allegation. Your choice.

[Chuck Lysaght]

Ross is an idiot.

[Will Dockery]

George Dance wrote:
>
> If that's what you want to focus on, then focus on it. You can start
> by showing which parts of what I wrote were allegedly plagiarized, and
> the alleged evidence for that.
>
> Alternatively, if that's not what you want to focus on it, then you
> can snip the allegation. Your choice.

What are they accusing of being a plagiarism?

Certainly not your Rimbaud translation, right?

[Will Dockery]

Peter J Ross wrote:
>
> I prefer to say that a poem just is what it is. It doesn't "mean"
> *anything*, because it's self-contained. In the most literal possible
> sense, a poem is a microcosm (mikrokosmos). It's a whole universe with
> its own laws of physics, even if it's only two lines long.

Ah, so at last you've come around to my way of thinking.

[George Dance]

No, unfortunately, it is my translation that they're calling a
plagiarism. PJ's original accusation is gone from the thread, as he's
having all his posts removed within a week of his posting them
(leaving Gwyneth's posts as the only permanent record of the
allegation). However, thanks to the luck of one person's finding and
replying, it is still possible to locate his original accusation and
its message ID. Here's the whole of his so-called evidence:

<quote>
"this and other translations of French authors certainly can't have

been written by George Dance. He's admitted in the past that he
doesn't even speak French"

MessageID:<slrnkml5h...@pjr.no-ip.org>

For the record, I don't speak French any more (though I was fluently
bilingual back when I learned to talk, decades ago); but I can read
and write it, given enough time. FWIW, our resident francophone poet,
VizantOr*, has even complimented me on my French in the past.

[Will Dockery]

Okay, I remember now.

Typical PJR garbage, hypocrisy and lies.

And just a bit foolish if he mistakes a translation of a poem for anything other than what it is.

On Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:37:59 PM UTC-4, George Dance wrote:

[Will Dockery]

"Peter J Ross" wrote:
>
> The greatest French poems from Machaut to Baudelaire are full of
> "heart and soul" language that isn't literally translatable into
> English without being reduced to pop-song levels.

No, it is what it is... if Baudelaire has a heart, he wouldn't turn around a
break it.

The translation should convey the /heart & soul/ of the poet if he obviously
intendid such, by writing the poem.

[Will Dockery]

"Peter J Ross" wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> For the benefit of newcomers to the newsgroup, it may be useful to
> note once again

That you're a hypocritical fool who apparently doesn't know what a
translation of a poem is, PJR?

"We know."

[RVG]

I wonder how Rimbaud's "Le Mal" (Evil) could be translated into English
or any other language.
It's a short poem where the poet's voice is almost breaking on each
verse, torn between the innocence and sanctity of nature and what
religion has made of it by allowing hundreds of thousands of men to be
sent to death in war while their poor mothers are spending their last
penny for a candle in the church.

I'm currently recording readings of Rimbaud's poems.
Here's my attempt at "Le Mal":
http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff/rimbaud-le-mal

http://poesie.webnet.fr/lesgrandsclassiques/poemes/arthur_rimbaud/le_mal.html
http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/French/Rimbaud1.htm#_Toc196916303

[Hieronymous House]

Apr 26RVG

I'm currently recording readings of Rimbaud's poems.
Here's my attempt at "Le Mal":
http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff/rimbaud-le-mal

Beautifully read; crisp, clear and resonant. I'd love to hear your take on 'Une Saison en Enfer'.

[Will Dockery]

I listened to a couple of tracks myself last night, and agreed, great vocal.

[Will Dockery]

On Friday, April 26, 2013 9:45:01 PM UTC-4, RVG wrote:
> Le 26/04/2013 21:50, Will Dockery a écrit :
> > "Peter J Ross" wrote:
>
> >> The greatest French poems from Machaut to Baudelaire are full of
>
> >> "heart and soul" language that isn't literally translatable into
>
> >> English without being reduced to pop-song levels.
>
> >
>
> > No, it is what it is... if Baudelaire has a heart, he wouldn't turn
>
> > around a break it.
>
> >
>
> > The translation should convey the /heart & soul/ of the poet if he
>
> > obviously intendid such, by writing the poem.
>
>
>
> I wonder how Rimbaud's "Le Mal" (Evil) could be translated into English
>
> or any other language.
>
> It's a short poem where the poet's voice is almost breaking on each
>
> verse, torn between the innocence and sanctity of nature and what
>
> religion has made of it by allowing hundreds of thousands of men to be
>
> sent to death in war while their poor mothers are spending their last
>
> penny for a candle in the church.

Good points in an argument that translations might be better off put aside and if the reader wants to learn the poems of a Frenchman he simply needs to learn the language.

[Chuck Lysaght]

Pete. You're in full tilt kook mode again.

[Will Dockery]

Peter J Ross wrote:

> You have a way

Of making you forget you were pretending to Killfile me?

"We know."

[Will Dockery]

Peter J Ross wrote:
>
> It's fun watching
fellow plagiarist

Oh, your friend Michael Cook, poetry thief, copyright abuser and plagiarist is posting on the newsgroup again?

I've been somewhat busy so hadn't noticed.

[George Dance]

On Apr 28, 9:54 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On Apr 27, 6:46 pm, Peter J Ross <p...@example.invalid> wrote:

> > In alt.arts.poetry.comments on Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:37:59 -0700 (PDT),

> > George Dance wrote:
> > > On Apr 25, 4:48 am, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> George Dance wrote:
>
> > >> If that's what you want to focus on, then focus on it. You can start
> > >> by showing which parts of what I wrote were allegedly plagiarized, and
> > >> the alleged evidence for that.
>
> > >> Alternatively, if that's not what you want to focus on it, then you
> > >> can snip the allegation. Your choice.
>
> > > What are they accusing of being a plagiarism?
>
> > > Certainly not your Rimbaud translation, right?
>
> > No, unfortunately, it is my translation that they're calling a
> > plagiarism. PJ's original accusation is gone from the thread, as he's
> > having all his posts removed within a week of his posting them
> > (leaving Gwyneth's posts as the only permanent record of the
> > allegation). However, thanks to the luck of one person's finding and
> > replying, it is still possible to locate his original accusation and
> > its message ID. Here's the whole of his so-called evidence:
>
> > <quote>
> > "this and other translations of French authors certainly can't have
> > been written by George Dance. He's admitted in the past that he

> > doesn't even speak French"</quote>
> > MessageID:<slrnkml5h1.12d....@pjr.no-ip.org>

>
> > For the record, I don't speak French any more (though I was fluently
> > bilingual back when I learned to talk, decades ago); but I can read
> > and write it, given enough time. FWIW, our resident francophone poet,
> > VizantOr*, has even complimented me on my French in the past.
>

> Bwahahahaha.
>
> It's fun calling you and Will Dockery plagiarists.

[Edited for truth].


Well, I'd suggest that the two of you seek your fun elsewhere.

[Will Dockery]

Peter J Ross wrote:

> George Dance wrote:
>
> > If that's what you want to focus on, then focus on it. You can start
> > by showing which parts of what I wrote were allegedly plagiarized, and
> > the alleged evidence for that.
>
> > Alternatively, if that's not what you want to focus on it, then you
> > can snip the allegation. Your choice.
>

> Whine much

He's simply telling you to "Post Proof or STFU".

[Hieronymous House]

2:12 AMWill Dockery

He's simply telling you to "Post Proof or STFU".

I've never heard the poem 'Novel' in its original French,
but really enjoyed reading its English translation by
Wyatt Mason this weekend.

I.

No one's serious at seventeen.
--On beautiful nights when beer and lemonade
And loud, blinding cafés are the last thing you need
--You stroll beneath green lindens on the promenade.

Lindens smell fine on fine June nights!
Sometimes the air is so sweet that you close your eyes;
The wind brings sounds--the town is near--
And carries scents of vineyards and beer. . .

II.

--Over there, framed by a branch
You can see a little patch of dark blue
Stung by a sinister star that fades
With faint quiverings, so small and white. . .

June nights! Seventeen!--Drink it in.
Sap is champagne, it goes to your head. . .
The mind wanders, you feel a kiss
On your lips, quivering like a living thing. . .

III.

The wild heart Crusoes through a thousand novels
--And when a young girl walks alluringly
Through a streetlamp's pale light, beneath the ominous shadow
Of her father's starched collar. . .

Because as she passes by, boot heels tapping,
She turns on a dime, eyes wide,
Finding you too sweet to resist. . .
--And cavatinas die on your lips.

IV.

You're in love. Off the market till August.
You're in love.--Your sonnets make Her laugh.
Your friends are gone, you're bad news.
--Then, one night, your beloved, writes. . .!

That night. . .you return to the blinding cafés;
You order beer or lemonade. . .
--No one's serious at seventeen
When lindens line the promenade.

[George Dance]

On Apr 29, 7:41 am, Hieronymous House <hieronymous...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Yes, "Roman" is a great little story, and Wyatt Mason captures it
well. There are a couple of things I don't like about his version, but
they're mostly to do with it being a translation: read by someone
who's never read the original, and isn't comparing, they might not be
a problem, but here they are:

First, the original is in verse, while Mason opts for open form; so
while his language is closer to Rimbaud's than a lot, I don't think he
represents what Rimbaud achieved.

Second, I don't think he's faithfully translated chapter 3; in that
one, where the girl turns with a "shrug" because she finds him
"incredibly naive" - implying that she turned away. To be sure, his
resulting chapter 4 -- he loses his friends because he's going with
her, and returns to his old ways only when she writes him a break-up
letter -- may be more sensible than the normal rendering: he loses his
friends because he's mooning after her, and he falls out of love as
soon as he wins her -- but the latter seems more faithful to Rimbaud's
plot.

For those interested in reading different translations here's the
other well-known 20th century English translation, "Romance" by Oliver
Bernard -- also in open form --

http://www.mag4.net/Rimbaud/poesies/Roman.html

and here's my IP translation, "Romance Novel":

http://gdancesbetty.blogspot.ca/2010/03/romance-novel-arthur-rimbaud.html

[Hieronymous House]

6:12 PMGeorge Dance

On Apr 29, 7:41 am, Hieronymous House <hieronymous...@gmail.com>
wrote:

- show quoted text -

Yes, "Roman" is a great little story, and Wyatt Mason captures it
well.

Mason's Novel in English to Rimbaud's Roman in French is an apples to oranges comparison. Tastes differ. They're both sweet and fairly well rounded.

[Will Dockery]

On Monday, April 29, 2013 7:41:03 AM UTC-4, Hieronymous House wrote:
> 2:12 AMWill Dockery
>
> He's simply telling you to "Post Proof or STFU".
>
> I've never heard the poem 'Novel' in its original French,
> but really enjoyed reading its English translation by
> Wyatt Mason this weekend.

That was a pretty good one, agreed, Corey.

Do you speak and/or read French?

[Hieronymous House]

Dockery

A bit. In terms of French, I understand what I'm hearing
or reading better than I know what to say or write. There's
one lady I know who owns a pastry shop nearby who speaks
French. Other than there, I don't have much local opportunity
to practice what I spent four years learning in high school.

[Will Dockery]

I only know one person around town who really knows any French, Eileen D'esterno, who sings French folk songs a lot, really beautiful sound.

I'm a big fan of Kean-Luc Godard from decades ago, and though I don't really know French, somehow the language is familiar to me, and although I usually have subtitles, the flow of the voices never quite loses my comprehension.

Had a good conversation among local music folks on Godard and other stuff, someof it may or may not be of interest. Skip if needed.

-------------

Brian Mallard Movie is on pause, not really a planned one, but wok has had overtime and there have been gigs. Back up and running soon I hope

Will Dockery It is a major task, I talked with Stacey about all the problems and delays Orson Welles went through with many of his movies.

Heath Williamson did you just compare Brian to Orsen Well?

Heath Williamson that would be like comparing me to Jaco or something. LOL

Brian Mallard comparison of situations not the actual individuals.

Heath Williamson I know I was just being factious

Will Dockery http://youtu.be/uzHThoav6hs Maybe, Heath, if I made the comparison, I'd rank Mallard's film experiments closer to the great Jean-Luc Godard, who was, like Welles and Brian Mallard, often forced to work on little to no budget. Here's a short sample of Godard, a film maker I learned about when I lived in -go figure- Atlanta. Very Shadowville, very "Wow".

Alphaville - Jean-Luc Godard - 1965 - Custom Trailer
www.youtube.com

Here's my first Youtube upload. Basically, its a simple home made Trailer of the the Film-noir classic Alphaville by Jean-Luc Godard.

Heath Williamson Jean Luc-Godard is no Ed Wood

Will Dockery Rusty Wood's Yankee cousin Ed?

Heath Williamson LOL

Heath Williamson that dudes voice is creeping me out

Heath Williamson why is the microphone moving?

Heath Williamson I want my art spoon fed to me man!!!

Brian Mallard LoL!

Will Dockery http://youtu.be/mE_sjuYvd0o The trailer/teaser for Alphaville explains all. Jack Midnight would agree...

----------------------

[Blackbeard]

On Sunday, April 14, 2013 at 6:34:03 AM UTC-4, George J. Dance wrote:
> In hot summer days of shimmering blue
> I will roam undiscovered frontiers,
> Where grasses prickle and cool my soles,
> While cool winds bathe my ears.
>
> Not a word will I say, not a thought will I think
> As I wander with nothing to guide me,
> But an infinite love will grow in my soul
> As if for a woman beside me.
>
> - translated by George Dance, 14/04/13
>
>
> Par les soirs bleus d'été, j'irai dans les sentiers,
> Picoté par les blés, fouler l'herbe menue :
> Rêveur, j'en sentirai la fraîcheur à mes pieds.
> Je laisserai le vent baigner ma tête nue.
>
> Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,
> Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l'âme ;
> Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
> Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.
>
> - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870

Love old Rimbaud... Verlaine also...l

[Will Dockery]

"Blackbeard" wrote in message
news:ba83837d-57f2-474b...@googlegroups.com...

Top shelf poetry.

[George J. Dance]

On Saturday, April 6, 2019 at 4:39:18 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> "Blackbeard" wrote in message
> news:ba83837d-57f2-474b...@googlegroups.com...
>

> >

> > Par les soirs bleus d'été, j'irai dans les sentiers,
> > Picoté par les blés, fouler l'herbe menue :
> > Rêveur, j'en sentirai la fraîcheur à mes pieds.
> > Je laisserai le vent baigner ma tête nue.
> >
> > Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien,
> > Mais l'amour infini me montera dans l'âme ;
> > Et j'irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
> > Par la Nature, heureux- comme avec une femme.
> >
> > - Arthur Rimbaud, 1870
>
> > Love old Rimbaud... Verlaine also...
>
> Top shelf poetry.

I made a few final revisions to mine; here's the version printed:

In the hot summer days of shimmering blue
I shall wander uncharted frontiers,
With the grasses prickling and cooling my soles
And the breezes bathing my ears.

Not a word shall I speak, not a thought shall I think,
As I wander with nothing to guide me;
But my soul shall be filled with unlimited love

As if for a woman beside me.

- translated by George J. Dance, 2013

[Michael Pendragon]

You should have quit while you were ahead, George. This one's not nearly as good as the first one.

Of course one must admit to a wee bit of prejudice regarding their respective subjects: a poem about "Evil" is tailor-made to Pendragonian tastes.

[W.Dockery]

And, after all, you're a better poet than Arthur Rimbaud, right?

🙂

[W.Dockery]

George J. Dance wrote:
>
>> I made a few final revisions to mine; here's the version printed:
>>
>> In the hot summer days of shimmering blue
>> I shall wander uncharted frontiers,
>> With the grasses prickling and cooling my soles
>> And the breezes bathing my ears.
>>
>> Not a word shall I speak, not a thought shall I think,
>> As I wander with nothing to guide me;
>> But my soul shall be filled with unlimited love
>> As if for a woman beside me.
>> - translated by George J. Dance, 2013

Again, good one, George.

[George Dance]

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 8:00:15 AM UTC-4, W.Dockery wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:
> >
> >> I made a few final revisions to mine; here's the version printed:
> >>
> >> In the hot summer days of shimmering blue
> >> I shall wander uncharted frontiers,
> >> With the grasses prickling and cooling my soles
> >> And the breezes bathing my ears.
> >>
> >> Not a word shall I speak, not a thought shall I think,
> >> As I wander with nothing to guide me;

> >> But my [spirit shall fil] with unlimited love

> >> As if for a woman beside me.
> >> - translated by George J. Dance, 2013

> Again, good one, George.

Thanks. I made one more change [in square brackets], just to get the word "soul" out.

[W.Dockery]

As you know, I've read and studied the poetry of Arthur Rimbaud since 1973 or so, and have compared the various translations.

[Michael Pendragon]

ROTFLMAO! Which comic book did you read Rimbaud in?

[W.Dockery]

Michael Pendragon wrote:

I have several translated collections of the poetry of Arthur Rimbaud on my shelf, I've been a fan and student for nearly fifty years, now.

HTH and HAND.

[W-Dockery]

Again, nice work.