PPB: Always Marry an April Girl / Ogden Nash

[George J. Dance]

Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
[...]
April golden, April cloudy,
Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
[...]
https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

[George J. Dance]

[Zod]

Love ole Ogden Nash....!

[General-Zod]

Cool, second read

[W.Dockery]

Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

[George J. Dance]

I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the
first time he's been published legally in years.

His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.

[George J. Dance]

Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
the latter, since his wife was born in March).

[W.Dockery]

As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies


My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:

"Rhyme is a crutch."

I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these later years.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 6:14:34 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> > General-Zod wrote:
> >> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>
> >>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
> >
> >>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> >>> [...]
> >>> April golden, April cloudy,
> >>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> >>> [...]
> >>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
> >>>
> >
> >> Cool, second read
> >
> >
> > Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;

What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.

And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).

One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.

And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with Stinky George's and Dirty Mike's rubbers.

[W.Dockery]

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 6:14:34 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>> > General-Zod wrote:
>> >> George J. Dance wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> >
>> >>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> >>> [...]
>> >>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> >>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> >>> [...]
>> >>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>> >>>
>> >
>> >> Cool, second read
>> >
>> >
>> > Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
>> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;

> What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.

> And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).

> One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.

> And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with

Your burn list includes some of the best poets:

Allen Ginsberg
Charles Bukowski
Jack Kerouac

Your agenda seems to be motivated by jealousy, Pendragon.

HTH and HAND.

>> and the one example of
>> rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>>
>> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
>> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
>> to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
>> the latter, since his wife was born in March).

..

[Michael Pendragon]

I don't see any poets on that list -- let alone any good ones.

> Your agenda seems to be motivated by jealousy, Pendragon.

Only to someone like yourself who thinks with the mind of a child.

I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since early childhood.

Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter. Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry. But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.

This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.

Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.

If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.

Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.

That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.

When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its proper categorization of "poetic prose."

Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.


Michael Pendragon
"Sure, I can accept it, and also identify it as a lie and misrepresentation."
-- Will Dockery, unsuccessfully denying that he's in denial.

[George J. Dance]

On 2022-05-04 9:41 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 6:14:34 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
>>> General-Zod wrote:
>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>>
>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>>>
>>>
>>>> Cool, second read
>>>
>>>
>>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
>> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;
>
> What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.
>
> And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).
>
> One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.

Indeed so. Fortunately it wasn't one I had to study. From the language,
I'd think it was geared at the high school market, but I encountered it
only in 2007 (after I'd joined aapc, and was trying to buy all the
poetics I could find on the cheap). The books we studied in uni weren't
that bad.

>
> And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with Stinky George's and Dirty Mike's rubbers.
>

I think it went to a landfill, but it did get trashed. Sad in a way, as
I'd like to bring it down from the shelf and quote some of it.

[George J. Dance]

That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
which I did the same.

But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
for them.

>
> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
> later years.

I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.

[Michael Pendragon]

Bravo!

> Sad in a way, as
> I'd like to bring it down from the shelf and quote some of it.

It would be enjoyable to refute.

[Zod]

I think perhaps the advemnt of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....

[Michael Pendragon]

Yes, I've heard that Ezra Pound was a big fan of Run DMC.

I think perhaps your understanding of poetry is limited to pop culture at its most base levels.

The modern poetry movement is over a hundred years old.


Michael Pendragon
"Memories... pressed between the pages just like fine wine...…........"
-- George "Stink" Sulzbach, career pissbum

[W-Dockery]

Yes, the poetry slam style of poetry has been very influential.

[W-Dockery]

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> The modern poetry movement is over a hundred years old.

No shit, Lancelot Link.

🙂

[Michael Pendragon]

Then please explain how "the advemnt of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes [from traditional to modern poetry] as well....."


Michael Pendragon
"My poem serves as my definition."
-- Will "Is so! Is so!" Dockery

[Will Dockery]

Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?

Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.

Look it up.

[Coco DeSockmonkey]

We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.

Michael Pendragon
PJR: Do you ever read the posts to which you reply?
WILL DOCKERY: Okay, good point.

[Will Dockery]

No, Zod spoke of more recent changes in poetry, after the 1970s, specifically, Pendragon.

Get it George Dance to explain it to you.

🙂

[W.Dockery]

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:50:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:

>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> > George J. Dance wrote:
>

> >> > Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>
> >>> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> >>> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> >>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> >>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;
>>

>> > What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.
>>
>> > And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).
>>
>> > One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>>

>> > And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with

>> Your burn list includes some of the best poets:
>>
>> Allen Ginsberg
>> Charles Bukowski
>> Jack Kerouac

> I don't see any poets on that list

Thus, your ignorance of certain forms of poetry is confirmed.

[Michael Pendragon]

I'm familiar with all of their writings, Donkey.

I just don't consider them to poets.

It looks like we're going to add "ignorance" to the ever-growing list of words and phrases Will Donkey refuses to understand.

Michael Pendragon
"…the Waffle House dining area was not open the last time I stopped by there."
-- Will Dockery, discussing poetry.

[W.Dockery]

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 3:00:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:50:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> > George J. Dance wrote:
>> >

>> > >> > Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>> >
>> > >>> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
>> > >>> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
>> > >>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
>> > >>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;
>> >>
>> >> > What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.
>> >>
>> >> > And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).
>> >>
>> >> > One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>> >>
>> >> > And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with
>> >> Your burn list includes some of the best poets:
>> >>
>> >> Allen Ginsberg
>> >> Charles Bukowski
>> >> Jack Kerouac
>>
>> > I don't see any poets on that list
>> Thus, your ignorance of certain forms of poetry is confirmed.

> I'm familiar with all of their writings

You've read, what, one paragraph of Jack Kerouac?

That's not very familiar.

[George J. Dance]

On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
>>
>> Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
>>
>> Look it up.
>
> We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

<q>

>>
>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
>> later years.

> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
> influence on your doing that.

I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
</q>

Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
popular trend in poetry post-1980.

>
> 1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
> 2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
(over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.

> You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
>

No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

[George J. Dance]

On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

This is something I enjoyed reading.

>
> I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since early childhood.
>
> Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
been around since "the beginning"

> Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

> But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
>
> This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
>

> Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
>

The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
of verse, from PPP:
"A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
"In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a
poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or
grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
having been referred to as stanzas."

The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
rhymed ones.)

> If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
>
> Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
>
> That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
>

I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late
modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
physical books and magazines.

> When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
>
> Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
>

No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

[Will Dockery]

Obviously a misunderstanding, as I've done intense studies of poetry history (the eras and poets who interest me) for almost fifty years now.

[W-Dockery]

Well put, George.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 5:31:14 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:

> On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >> Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
> >>
> >> Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
> >>
> >> Look it up.
> >
> > We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).
> No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
> rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

No mention was made of the alleged "rediscovery of rhyme," George.

Here is the passage Stink was responding to in full:

DONKEY: My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:

GD: That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was

most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
which I did the same.

But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.

If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
argument, to give the reader an epiphany.

Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
for them.

DONKEY: I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
later years.

GD: I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on

the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
influence on your doing that.

STINK: I think perhaps the advemnt of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring on the changes as well.....

> >> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
> >> later years.
>
> > I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
> > the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
> > influence on your doing that.
> I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
> on the changes as well.....

Stink does *not* appear to be referring to Donkey's poetry, as "bring on the changes" suggests a movement (specifically modern poetry which made rhyme/metered verse go "out of fashion").

> Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
> rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
> Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
> popular trend in poetry post-1980.

Stink does *not* appear to be referring to Donkey's poetry, as "bring on the changes" suggests a movement (specifically modern poetry which made rhyme/metered verse go "out of fashion").

Although I was pleasantly surprised to find "Will, of course, was talking about himself" coming from your pen.

> > 1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
> > 2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.
> Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
> vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
> rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
> which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

As if Stinky George possesses even the slightest conception of what New Formalism is. Once again, you are attempting to put words into his mouth (to make up for his lack of teeth?).

Based on the discussion (reprinted above) Stink is either saying that rap "helped to bring on the changes" in Donkey's poetry, or that it contributed to the late 70s school of thought that was responsible for the infamous textbook you once possessed. Again, I stress the fact that no mention of New Formalism, or even a return to rhymed/metered form had been mentioned in the discussion.

Stink's statement *must* be taken in the context in which it was offered -- not reinterpreted in light of your own knowledge of late 20th century poetry movements.

> But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
> (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
> tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
> second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
> to being seen and read by millions.

For the third time, no resurgence of rhymed/metered poetry had been mentioned in the discussion, nor has any such resurgence been shown to exist. The vast majority of poetry journals -- both online and off -- specifically state that rhymed/metered verse is frowned upon in their submission guidelines.

> > You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
> >
> No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

Bullshit.

This is *not* the picture of a man who is capable of counting to three, much less being aware of any poetry movements: https://imgur.com/a/kNAZDFk

[Family Guy]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 1:55:13 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:
>
> > On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >> General-Zod wrote:
> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
> >>
> >>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> >>>> [...]
> >>>> April golden, April cloudy,
> >>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> >>>> [...]
> >>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
> >>>>
> >>
> >>> Cool, second read
> >>
> >>
> >> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>
> > Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> > half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> > First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> > that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
> > rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
>
> > Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
> > is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
> > to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
> > the latter, since his wife was born in March).
> As you know,

...says the guy who constantly screams about "obsession" and "stalking."

> much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies

Then you had a poor teacher, at least the ones who would acknowledge you.
Given your narcissism, self-centered behavior, laziness and apparently inability to understand or grasp simple grammatical concepts, I doubt your "writing and study."
Where did you study?

>
>
> My teacher and mentor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
>
> "Rhyme is a crutch."
>
> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these later years.

How disappointed is he today knowing you have become what you became.

[W.Dockery]

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>

I once credited Tupac Shakur with bringing me around to rhyming poetry, and the stand up delivery at poetry readings, which I began performing at weekly, sometimes daily, in 1995.

I rode around town one night with my friend Terry Nell, listening to a cassette tape of Tupac Shakur, studying his rhyme and delivery, which was state of the art at the time:

https://allpoetry.com/Tupac-Shakur

[Michael Pendragon]

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> This is something I enjoyed reading.
> >
> > I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since early childhood.
> >
> > Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.
> Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
> been around since "the beginning"

(See my note on "blank verse" immediately below.)

BTW: I was not referring to its definition in historical context but in my personal experience when I was a boy of approximately ten: "I still remember the first time I was confronted with 'modern poetry'... Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter."

> > Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.
>
> > But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
> >
> > This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
> >
>
> > Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
> >
> The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
> of verse, from PPP:
> "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
> word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."
>
> And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
> "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a
> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or
> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
> having been referred to as stanzas."

That's certainly one way of defining it. However, I should like to point out that from the Elizabethan to the Modern eras (roughly 1550 - 1900), the bulk of English poetry was set in rhymed/metered form. And, since this period comprises the greater portion of English poetry, my definition of poetry as having rhyme and/or meter is equally applicable.

> The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
> poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
> no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
> hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
> and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
> willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
> rhymed ones.)

That is if one accepts "open form" as a legitimate form of poetry -- which I do not. Eliot, of course, is a Modern, and one of the individuals most responsible for the demise of poetry proper.

> > If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
> >
> > Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
> >
> > That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
> >
> I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late
> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
> changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
> audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
> physical books and magazines.

That's a nice fairy story, but I'm not buying it -- as much as I might like to.

The internet is granted no credibility by the academics; and rightly so. The majority of self-published poetry, both in books and on internet sites like Poem Hunter, are "unspeakable shit." (Ahem.)

If anything, the internet only serves as an argument in favor of academic gatekeepers.

> > When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
> >
> > Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
> >
> No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
> snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
> poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
> and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
> attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
> gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

Again, I don't believe it has.

Poetry journals big and small that accept rhymed/metered verse remain few and far between; and one needs legitimate (recognized) publication credits in order to be recognized as a poet.

How many rhymed/metered poets from the 21st century can you name? Amanda Gorman has some rhyme in her poetry, but she out-Eliots Eliot in her mixture of uneven meters and rhymed/unrhymed form.

[General-Zod]

You are on the right path, Doc....

[Zod]

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>> Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
>>>
>>> Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
>>>
>>> Look it up.
>>
>> We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

> No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
> rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

> <q>

> >>
> >> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
> >> later years.

> > I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
> > the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
> > influence on your doing that.

> I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
> on the changes as well.....

> </q>

> Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
> rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
> Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
> popular trend in poetry post-1980.
>>

>> 1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
>> 2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

> Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
> vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
> rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
> which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

> But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
> (over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
> tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
> second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
> to being seen and read by millions.

>> You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
>>

> No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetry_slam

Poetry slam
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A poetry slam is a competitive arts event in which poets perform spoken word poetry before a live audience and a panel of judges. Culturally, poetry slams are a break from the past image of poetry as an elitist or rigid artform. While formats can vary, slams are often loud and lively, with audience participation, cheering and dramatic delivery. Hip-hop music and urban culture are strong influences, and backgrounds of participants tend to be diverse.[citation needed]

Poetry slams began in Chicago in 1984, with the first slam competition designed to move poetry recitals from academia to a popular audience. American poet Marc Smith, believing the poetry scene at the time was "too structured and stuffy", began experimenting by attending open microphone poetry readings, and then turning them into slams by introducing the element of competition.[1]

The performances at a poetry slam are judged as much on enthusiasm and style as content, and poets may compete as individuals or in teams. The judging is often handled by a panel of judges, typically five, who are usually selected from the audience. Sometimes the poets are judged by audience response

Poem
Poetry slams can feature a broad range of voices, styles, cultural traditions, and approaches to writing and performance. The originator of performance poetry, Hedwig Gorski, credits slam poetry for carrying on the poetics of ancient oral poetry designed to grab attention in barrooms and public squares.[19]

Some poets are closely associated with the vocal delivery style found in hip-hop music and draw heavily on the tradition of dub poetry, a rhythmic and politicized genre belonging to black and particularly West Indian culture. Others employ an unrhyming narrative formula. Some use traditional theatrical devices including shifting voices and tones, while others may recite an entire poem in ironic monotone. Some poets use nothing but their words to deliver a poem, while others stretch the boundaries of the format, tap-dancing or beatboxing or using highly choreographed movements.

What is a dominant / successful style one year may not be passed to the next. Cristin O'Keefe Aptowicz, slam poet and author of Words In Your Face: A Guided Tour Through Twenty Years of the New York City Poetry Slam, was quoted in an interview on the Best American Poetry blog as saying:

One of the more interesting end products (to me, at least) of this constant shifting is that poets in the slam always worry that something—a style, a project, a poet—will become so dominant that it will kill the scene, but it never does. Ranting hipsters, freestyle rappers, bohemian drifters, proto-comedians, mystical shamans and gothy punks have all had their time at the top of the slam food chain, but in the end, something different always comes along and challenges the poets to try something new.[20]


Bob Holman
One of the goals of a poetry slam is to challenge the authority of anyone who claims absolute authority over literary value. No poet is beyond critique, as everyone is dependent upon the goodwill of the audience. Since only the poets with the best cumulative scores advance to the final round of the night, the structure assures that the audience gets to choose from whom they will hear more poetry. Audience members furthermore become part of each poem's presence, thus breaking down the barriers between poet/performer, critic, and audience.

Bob Holman, a poetry activist and former slammaster of the Nuyorican Poets Cafe, once called the movement "the democratization of verse".[21] In 2005, Holman was also quoted as saying: "The spoken word revolution is led a lot by women and by poets of color. It gives a depth to the nation's dialogue that you don't hear on the floor of Congress. I want a floor of Congress to look more like a National Poetry Slam. That would make me happy

History
American poet Marc Smith is credited with starting the poetry slam at the Get Me High Lounge in Chicago in November 1984. In July 1986, the original slam moved to its permanent home, the Green Mill Jazz Club.[3][4] In 1987 the Ann Arbor Poetry Slam was founded by Vince Keuter and eventually made its home at the Heidelberg (moving later 2010, 2013, and 2015 to its new home at Espresso Royale). In August 1988, the first poetry slam held in New York City was hosted by Bob Holman at the Nuyorican Poets Cafe.[5] In 1990, the first National Poetry Slam took place at Fort Mason, San Francisco. This slam included teams from Chicago and San Francisco, and an individual poet from New York.[6] Soon afterward, poetry slam increased popularity allowed some poets to make full-time careers in performance and competition, touring the United States and eventually the world.[5]

In 1999, National Poetry Slam, held in major cities each year, was in Chicago. The event was covered nationally by The New York Times and 60 Minutes (CBS). 60 Minutes taped a 20 segment on slam poetry with live poetry scenes at Chopin Theatre. [7]

In 2001, the grounding of aircraft following the September 11 attacks left a number of performers stranded in cities they had been performing in.[5] After the attacks, a new wave of poetry slam started within San Francisco.[citation needed]

As of 2017, the National Poetry Slam featured 72 certified teams, culminating in five days of competition.[8]

Today, there are poetry slam competitions in a number of countries around the globe.

Poetry Slam, Inc. sanctions three major annual poetry competitions (for poets 18+) on a national and international scale: the National Poetry Slam (NPS), the individual World Poetry Slam (iWPS), and the Women of the World Poetry Slam (WoWPS).

****************************************************

[Michael Pendragon]

Why do you think that posting marginally-related Wikipedia articles passes for either an argument or a refutation?

It has no bearing on the supposed question of Will Donkey's poetic influences, nor on whether rhymed/metered verse has come back into vogue.

All that it shows is that you know how go google "poetry slam."

You obviously haven't read the article, since you haven't offered any commentary on it -- including an explanation that would place it in context of the discussion at hand.

And even if you ever do get around to reading it, one sincerely doubts that you possess the intellectual ability to place it in context to the same.

Michael Pendragon
"The Universal horro noir was hardtop top... Tis true...."

[General Zod]

It is more than just marginally, it describes one of the movements that brought poetry back to the rhyming roots, Voodoo Boy.....

You do not know recent poetry history very well, now is your chance to learn.....

[General-Zod]

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:

> This is something I enjoyed reading.

>>
>> I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since early childhood.
>>
>> Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.

> Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
> been around since "the beginning"

>> Blank verse, which kept only meter, was a sub-division of poetry.

>> But modern verse, which eliminates both the rhyme and the meter no longer has either of the defining characteristics of poetry.
>>
>> This does not in any way imply that modern verse is inferior (or superior) to poetry. It is saying that they are two different literary forms.
>>

>> Unfortunately, by appropriating the name of "poetry" for itself, modern verse rendered traditional poetry obsolete.
>>

> The concept that's been lost isn't that of "poetry", but of "verse" --
> literature written in meter. As evidence, here's the traditional concept
> of verse, from PPP:
> "A verse is formally a line of poetry written in meter. However, the
> word has come to mean poetry in general (or sometimes even non-poetry)
> written in lines of a regular metrical pattern."

> And here's the public understanding of "verse", from Wikipedia:
> "In the countable sense, a verse is formally a single metrical line in a
> poetic composition. However, verse has come to represent any division or
> grouping of words in a poetic composition, with groupings traditionally
> having been referred to as stanzas."

> The two different literary forms are poetry in verse (or "verse") and
> poetry without verse ("open form"). But there's no line between them,
> no; a poet can use both, even in the same poem. So there's a lot of
> hybrid poetry as well. (The paradigm example is Eliot, who used rhyme
> and meter, but not use in the normal way, mixing up his meters
> willy-nilly and throwing in a lot of unrhymed lines in amongst the
> rhymed ones.)

>> If you look at any of the poetry journals at your library, you'll find that traditional (rhymed-metered) verse is nowhere to be found.
>>
>> Modern and traditional verse should have existed side-by-side, as related forms of literature -- as they do in "A Year of Sundays." However, in the academic and literary world, the former has entirely supplanted the latter.
>>
>> That readers still appreciate traditional can be determined by the fact that traditional poetry collections by Donne, Shakespeare, Keats, Poe, et al., are continuously in print. Yet the academic prejudice for modern verse has blocked any new traditional poetry from being published -- effectively killing it as a literary form.
>>

> I think that has definitely changed, and again that's the internet. For
> a while after WWII academics did successfully serve as gatekeepers: late
> modernist poetry was nothing but 100 or so small journals, put out and
> read by perhaps 10,000 people. But again, as I'd say, the internet
> changed everything. Not only do today's poets have access to a vast
> audience online; they even have self-publication, with the result that
> the academics don't even have a monopoly in their totemic symbols, the
> physical books and magazines.

>> When I talk of metaphorically burning books (and/or poets) I am not speaking out of jealousy, but out of a desire to bring about a literary form of enantiodromia wherein traditional verse is re-established as poetry and modern verse is removed to its proper categorization of "poetic prose."
>>
>> Ideally, I would like both forms to co-exist -- but until such a time comes about, I shall continue to advocate the "burning" of texts, journals, and poetic forms that prevent traditional verse from flourishing.
>>

> No form of literature prevents another from flourishing. Elites (or
> snobs) in one form may actively try to do so (and I think that little
> poetics text I started this off with is a good example of that snobbery
> and nothing but), but all that's needed is for the world to stop paying
> attention to that. And that's what's happened to the erstwhile academic
> gatekeepers over the last quarter-century.

Well said, Mr. GD....!

[Michael Pendragon]

1) The alleged resurgence of rhymed-metered poetry was not a part of the discussion you had responded to; and
2) the alleged resurgence of rhymed-metered poetry has yet to have been established.

If this is your explanation, then the article is as irrelevant as... yourself.


Michael Pendragon
"There you bare being baing lying, dishonest post editor Peter...."

[Will Dockery]

Hip hop culture has achieved both.

[Coco DeSockmonkey]

Prove it, Donkey.

If it has, there must be examples.

Michael Pendragon
"writing is just putting one word in front of another."
-- Will Dockery, on the art of literary composition.

[W.Dockery]

You really have been asleep for the last 30 years, haven't you?

[Coco DeSockmonkey]

Prove it, Donkey.

[General-Zod]

That is correct....

[W-Dockery]

Yes, there is plenty of room for all in poetry.

[General-Zod]

Well said G.D.....

[General-Zod]

W.Dockery wrote:

> General-Zod wrote:
>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>> [...]
>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>> [...]
>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

>> Cool, second read


> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

Indeed, indeed....

[W-Dockery]

George J. Dance wrote:

> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
> rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
> to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
> the latter, since his wife was born in March).

Yes, during the 1970s, rhymed poetry wasn't taken seriously.

By the 1990s that was definitely changing.

[W-Dockery]

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 3:00:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:50:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:

>> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> > George J. Dance wrote:
>> >
>> >> >> >>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> >> >> >>> [...]
>> >> >> >>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> >> >> >>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> >> >> >>> [...]
>>
>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>
>> >

>> > >> > Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>> >
>> > >>> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
>> > >>> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
>> > >>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
>> > >>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;
>> >>

>> >> > What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.
>> >>
>> >> > And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).
>> >>
>> >> > One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>> >>
>> >> > And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with
>> >> Your burn list includes some of the best poets:
>> >>
>> >> Allen Ginsberg
>> >> Charles Bukowski
>> >> Jack Kerouac
>>
>> > I don't see any poets on that list
>> Thus, your ignorance of certain forms of poetry is confirmed.

> I'm familiar with all of their writings

I know you've only read a paragraph or two of Jack keroua, how much poetry by the other two have you actually read?

[Michael Pendragon]

You don't know jack, Donkey. I've discussed my knowledge of these three writers in the past.

Senile much, Donkey?

Michael Pendragon
"I would posit 13/14 as being an area where rational consent is possible, but anything younger while possible, is not advisable."
-- The late, unlamented Stephen "Pickles" Pickering [attempting to justify Ginsberg's having had sex with 14-year old boys]

[Will Dockery]

Just the reply I'd expect from you.

🙂

[Will Dockery]

Michael Pendragon, you may have read a bit of Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski and Jack Kerouac, but you obviously don't get their poetry.

HTH and HAND.

[Coco DeSockmonkey]

On Monday, May 9, 2022 at 8:12:33 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon, you may have read a bit of Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski and Jack Kerouac, but you obviously don't get their poetry.

I understand it (let's face it, they aren't exactly challenging). I just don't care for their style.

I am a wordsmith. I appreciate well-crafted sentences, beautiful turns of phrase, ideas that elevate the "soul," and most of all *music* expressed through the spoken word. I like rhyme, meter, alliteration, onomatopoeia, internal rhyme, etc. -- little flourishes that lift the lines above those of ordinary speech.

Your above-listed idols lack these skills. Ginsberg reads like a pompous college professor, Kerouac like a fortune cookie, and Bukowski like a drunken pissbum.

You disagree?

Why don't you post that critical reading of a Bukowski poem you've been promising for the last ten years?


Michael Pendragon
"Kids will play around with other kids, having been one, I know that, but consent laws are indeed in place to keep adult predators from legally seducing children."
-- Will Dockery, on playing with children

[Will Dockery]

Okay, to each his own, Pendragon.

[W-Dockery]

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>
>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>> [...]
>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>> [...]
>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>
>>

>> Cool, second read


> I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
> Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
> Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the
> first time he's been published legally in years.

> His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
> his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.


Looking forward to reading more of your Nash selections.

[George J. Dance]

On 2022-05-09 8:12 p.m., Will Dockery wrote:
> Michael Pendragon, you may have read a bit of Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski and Jack Kerouac

Not good enough. He claims to "be familiar with all their writing" --
not a bit of it, not even a lot of it, but all of it, every jot and tittle.

[Coco DeSockmonkey]

I refer you to Merriam-Webster:

familiar with
idiom

Definition of familiar with
: having some knowledge about (something)
We are familiar with the situation.
I'm not very familiar with that area.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/familiar%20with#:~:text=Definition%20of%20familiar%20with,very%20familiar%20with%20that%20area.

However, I should have been more specific:

I am familiar with all three of these authors' writings.

[W.Dockery]

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-09 8:12 p.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>
>> Michael Pendragon, you may have read a bit of Allen Ginsberg, Charles Bukowski and Jack Kerouac

> Not good enough. He claims to "be familiar with all their writing" --
> not a bit of it, not even a lot of it, but all of it, every jot and tittle.

I remember Pendragon claiming he'd read about a paragraph of Jack Kerouac and stopped, I'd be surprised if he even made it all the way through "Howl", much less the hundreds of poems written by Allen Ginsberg (and Charles Bukowski).

:)

[General-Zod]

Well said Mr. GD....

[General-Zod]

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:

>> General-Zod wrote:
>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>
>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>>> [...]
>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>>> [...]
>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>>
>>
>>> Cool, second read
>>
>>

>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated

> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one example of
> rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.

> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed off
> to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way (probably
> the latter, since his wife was born in March).

Strange days indeed....

[W-Dockery]

Nailed it, George Dance.

HTH and HAND.

[General-Zod]

Agreed and seconded.....

[W.Dockery]

Most peculiar.

[W.Dockery]

General-Zod wrote:

> George J. Dance wrote:

>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> [...]
>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> [...]
>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

> Cool, second read

Good morning, agreed.

[Zod]

On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 6:04:39 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:

> I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
> Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
> Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the
> first time he's been published legally in years.
>
> His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
> his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.

Cool.... cool.....

[W.Dockery]

Michael Pendragon wrote:

> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 3:00:15 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>

>> > On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 9:50:14 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:

>> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> >> > George J. Dance wrote:
>> >
>> >> >> >>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> >> >> >>> [...]
>> >> >> >>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> >> >> >>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> >> >> >>> [...]
>>
>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>
>> >

>> > >> > Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
>> >
>> > >>> Oh, yeah. As an example: I remember one textbook I picked up in the last
>> > >>> half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to verse.
>> > >>> First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it pontificated
>> > >>> that rhyme was good only for humorous effect;
>> >>

>> >> > What an appallingly horrid little work that must have been.
>> >>
>> >> > And a textbook, yet (implying that it was actually taught in classrooms).
>> >>
>> >> > One need look no farther to understand why poetry has become a dead language and an obsolete art form.
>> >>
>> >> > And, yes -- I would consign that book to be burned along with
>> >> Your burn list includes some of the best poets:
>> >>
>> >> Allen Ginsberg
>> >> Charles Bukowski
>> >> Jack Kerouac
>>
>> > I don't see any poets on that list
>> Thus, your ignorance of certain forms of poetry is confirmed.

> I'm familiar with all of their writings

You've read, what, two paragraphs of Jack Kerouac, I think you've stated?

[General-Zod]

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>
>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>> [...]
>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>> [...]
>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>
>>

>> Cool, second read


> I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
> Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
> Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the
> first time he's been published legally in years.

> His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
> his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.

Cool... cool....

[Michael Pendragon]

You're exaggerating, Donkey.

[Will Dockery]

In what way?

[Michael Pendragon]

You only wrote one sentence, Donkey. Figure it out.


Michael Pendragon
"I've been hanging out with the snuggliest love-balls and it's spectacular."
-- Clay Dockery ("Not that there's anything wrong with that.")

[Will Dockery]

In other words, I nailed it and you just can't admit it, Pendragon.

HTH and HAND.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:38:02 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> In other words, I nailed it and you just can't admit it, Pendragon.
>
> HTH and HAND.

Those are certainly "other words," as they're not even remotely close to what I said.

Learn to read, Donkey.

Take a free online course (or twenty) in basic English.

You'll be glad you did... and so will the rest of us.

Michael Pendragon
"I do go in for the childish name-calling."
-- Will Dockery in a rare moment of self-acknowledgement

[Zod]

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 12:38:02 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>

> In other words, I nailed it and you just can't admit it, Pendragon.
>
> HTH and HAND.

Good luck on EVER getting Voodoo Boy to admit that he was every wrong about anything.... ha.

[General-Zod]

George J. Dance wrote:

> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> [...]
> April golden, April cloudy,
> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> [...]
> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

Yep... great

[General Zod]

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 7:00:13 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:

> > Cool, second read

> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.

Seconded.....

[Zod]

George J. Dance wrote:
>
> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> [...]
> April golden, April cloudy,
> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> [...]
> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

Having another read, love this one....

[W.Dockery]

Nash at his best.

[General-Zod]

He's pretty groovy....

[W.Dockery]

Zod wrote:

> George J. Dance wrote:
>>
>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:

>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>> [...]
>> April golden, April cloudy,
>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>> [...]
>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

> Love ole Ogden Nash....!


He did have his moments.

🙂

[W.Dockery]

Agreed.

🙂

[Zod]

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 3:34:40 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>
> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>
> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> [...]
> April golden, April cloudy,
> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> [...]
> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html

A good one.....

[General-Zod]

Good day to ye, kind sir.....

[W.Dockery]

Good morning, my friend.

🙂

[Will Dockery]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2022 at 1:06:44 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:

> On 2022-05-04 1:53 a.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> >
> >> On 2022-05-02 6:56 p.m., W.Dockery wrote:
> >>> General-Zod wrote:
> >>>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
> >>>
> >>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
> >>>>> [...]
> >>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
> >>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
> >>>>> [...]
> >>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>> Cool, second read
> >>>
> >>>

> >>> Nash definitely was the master of his niche in poetry.
> >

> >> Oh, yeah. As an example:I remember one textbook I picked up in the
> >> last half of the last century. It was very modern in its approach to
> >> verse. First, it ignored rhythm / meter completely. Second, it

> >> pontificated that rhyme was good only for humorous effect; and the one
> >> example of rhyme it cited was Ogden Nash.
> >
> >> Be that as it may, I'm glad to have his poetry on the blog. This debut
> >> is a bit out of the ordinary -- it reads like a love poem he dashed
> >> off to his wife, whether he did or whether he designed it that way
> >> (probably the latter, since his wife was born in March).
> >
> >

> > As you know, much of my early years of poetry writing and study I was
> > taught to shun rhymes, in popular culture and personal school studies
> >
> >
> > My teacher and me
I'mntor Dan Barfield, as you know, famously told our class:
> >
> > "Rhyme is a crutch."
> That would be late 70s, in high school back when and where rhyme was
> most out of fashion. I encountered the same prejudice in my friends who
> wrote poetry; all of them shunned rhyme, and only liked the poems in
> which I did the same.
>
> But regardless of Dan's views on rhyme, I'd interpret his maxim more
> charitably, not as saying "Don't use rhyme", but as Don't rely on rhyme;
> don't try to use it to support work that isn't supported otherwise.
>
> If I were teaching poetics, I'd advise new students to start by writing
> open form, until they'd learned how to write poems - how to arrange the
> words to tell a story, or present a scene, or even construct an
> argument, to give the reader an epiphany.
>
> Then I'd instruct them on meter, rhyme, and finally forms. But I'd make
> it clear that in their poems they'd have to use those in addition to all
> that other stuff they learned earlier, not as a substitute (or "crutch)
> for them.
> >
> > I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
> > later years.
> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
> influence on your doing that.

I'm working on a poem using the form you used for "Usenet's Greatest Poet".

It'll be a while before it's finished but I'll post it for comment when it's ready.

[Will Dockery]

On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>
> This is something I enjoyed reading.
> >
> > I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since early childhood.
> >
> > Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.
> Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
> been around since "the beginning"

Good points to remember.

[Victor H.]

Will Dockery wrote:

> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-05-04 11:58 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>> This is something I enjoyed reading.
>> >
>> > I still remember the first time I was confronted with "modern" poetry (long before I ever dreamed of penning any poetry of my own), and my inability to understand how it was supposed to be the same literary form as the poetry I'd known and loved since early childhood.
>> >
>> > Poetry had always been defined as having rhyme and meter.
>> Not "always". Older poetry "Greek" to "Anglo-Saxon" had meter (in its
>> own fashion) but not rhyme. Rhyme (and our concept of meter) began in
>> Italy, and while English poets had been using it since Chaucer, it was
>> still quite controversial in the early Tudor period. So you can say it's
>> been around since "the beginning"

> Good points to remember.

Indeed, agreed and seconded...!

Quite a compelling read...

[W.Dockery]

Again, agreed.

[Rocky Stoneberg]

i like his poetry quite a lots......

[W.Dockery]

Response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
George J. Dance wrote:
> On 2022-05-05 11:03 a.m., Coco DeSockmonkey wrote:
> On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>> Were you asleep in the 1990s-2000s, Pendragon?
>>
>> Love it or hate it, the hip-hop and rap influence on the current poetry scene is real.
>>
>> Look it up.
>
> We were discussing the change from traditional to modern poetry, Donkey, and the subsequent redefinition of poetry (abandonment of rhymed-metered verse).

No, we'd moved on from that and were talking about the rediscovery of
rhyme (beginning in the 1980s).

<q>

>>
>> I learned to begin to embrace rhyme, meter and form, et cetera, in these
>> later years.

> I won't claim any credit, since you were using rhymes before I got on
> the group. But I do think that being on aapc was probably a big
> influence on your doing that.

I think perhaps the [advent] of HIP HOP spoken word poetry helped bring
on the changes as well.....
</q>

Will, of course, was talking about himself and his own discovery of
rhyme. Zod was pointing out that the former didn't happen in a vacuum;
Will's pesonal evolution was happening in, and reflective of, a general
popular trend in poetry post-1980.
>
> 1) Hip-hop and rap did not appear until long after the change had taken place.
> 2) Hip-hop and rap rely heavily on rhyme and meter, and would represent a popular movement to restore traditional poetry.

Exactly what Zod was saying. The hip-hop movement didn't occur in a
vacuum, though; there were other factors behind the rediscovery of
rhyme. The most important, academically, was the rise of New Formalism,
which was a movement of poetics as much as poetry.

But the biggest influence, I'd say, was as always the internet. Suddenly
(over 25 or so years, or just the blink of an eye in terms of the
tradition), public domain poetry went from a few dusty books in
second-hand shelves, that hardly anyone even noticed much less bought,
to being seen and read by millions.

> You and your Stink are obviously unaware of both the history of modern poetry and of the history of poetry in general.
>

No, that looks like a case of misunderstanding.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/ArTmAUO-RQw/m/PFMio5mICQAJ

[Victor H.]

Again, I thank you for setting the record straight on this here matter.....

[W-Dockery]

Pendragon is still playing stupid about it, but he's obviously mistaken, as George Dance corrected him.

[Victor H.]

That's just the way he is.....

[W.Dockery]

Good morning, Zod, I hope you and Mike are having a great morning.

🙂

[Victor H.]

Will Dockery wrote:

Good day to you sir....!

[Will Dockery]

Hello again my friend.

[W-Dockery]

It's all here, archived, so I suppose it's time to move on to the next engagement.

[Victor H.]

George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>> On 2022-04-30 5:13 p.m., General-Zod wrote:
>>>>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Today's poem on Penny's Poetry Blog:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Always Marry an April Girl, by Ogden Nash
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> April golden, April cloudy,
>>>>>>> Gracious, cruel, tender, rowdy;
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> https://gdancesbetty.blogspot.com/2022/04/always-marry-april-girl-ogden-nash.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cool, second read


>>>>> I am glad you're a fan of Nash, because this is a big moment. You see
>>>>> Nash died in 1971, meaning his poems went into the public domain last
>>>>> Jan. 1. Accordingly, this is his first time on the blog, and perhaps the
>>>>> first time he's been published legally in years.

>>>>> His poetry is all over the web, but mainly on sites in the U.S., where
>>>>> it will still be copyrighted for years; but the publisher hasn't kept
>>>>> his books in print, so it's unlikely to challenge those bootleg copies.

I thank you for the knowledge.....

[W-Dockery]

Again, the response from George Dance attempting to clear up Pendragon's confusion:

Again, lest we forget.

HTH and HAND.

[Victor H.]

Quite rightly....

[W.Dockery]

Seconded.