Variations on constructive rest

[gavinmccloskey2007]

I have recently been experimenting with this position for constructive rest, which was developed by Lulu Sweigard.

Feels pretty good, there seems to be something very soothing about the arms hanging over the front of the body, and perhaps this gives better feedback of what is happening in the organs, particularly the heart. 

Details here:

http://yogaphysicaltherapy.com/blog/the-best-way-to-relax.html

John, you might find this a good position for increasing perception of dorsal / ventral sensations, with the ventral areas of the arms and chest being bunched together in this way. 

Wondering if anyone cares to share their experience with different takes on positions for constructive rest. 

Sent from Samsung Mobile

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Gavin,

On 30 March 2014 00:38, gavinmccloskey2007 <gavinmccl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Wondering if anyone cares to share their experience with different
> takes on positions for constructive rest.

I'm curious as to what the aim is, if there is an aim.

I used to use it to try to cultivate proprioceptive awareness.

Keith

[John Appleton]

Hello Gavin,

 

I don't find the whole question of constructive rest that interesting anymore. I have been at this mind-body business for a long time and I have not learned much from constructive rest. I find my imagery more powerful and so I don't do lie downs or even suggest them. To me the fact that it is something akin to a turtle on its back means that it can be counter-productive as well as productive.

 

 

I do want some day, for fun, to make some version of a ventral supporting, dorsal releasing device like I illustrate here. It would mimic the ventrally supported young on mothers' backs. It seems probable that if sufficient parts of the ventral surface are supported, even lightly so, that the dorsal would feel free... to be free. Supporting most all of the ventral surface would be key, even to the point where most of the body's weight would not feel overly-supported by one point, say the feet, butt, chest, or anywhere ventral but more or less equally. The idea comes from the natural body position that astronauts were found to fall into when in zero gravity and the position takes on a little more of the "lamb and egg" image look. It is not "straightened" as it is by the body in response to gravity.

  

John

http://posturereleaseimagery.org/ 

https://www.facebook.com/posturereleaseimagery 

http://www.youtube.com/calmuptensedown 

https://twitter.com/postureimagery 

[alun thomas]

Hi John,

Good to hear from you…... I, too, find CR troublesome as a concept and of sometimes of limited or even retrograde value. Indeed I found great relief when I first discovered that I was allowed to lie on my front ;-). It's very much an embrace I find and quite a safe place, too. 

Taking very great care to lie down rather than 'spread-eagle' though, seems the best approach to CR, to avoid the 'falling apart' that the position can encourage…….. Old Alexander possibly only used it as test for someone's inhibitory progress (though might be very wrong about that) - though we know he didn't really do table work - he did work on trainees on the table, however by getting them to move a leg; making sure that they didn't forget to inhibit - that from one of my first teachers, Tony Spawforth. 

I like the ventral support chair idea, and do use a chair like this from time to time. They remind me of the old 'library' chairs - an English design from the last century (or two) where you could rest a newspaper or book on a stand in front of the chair and grasp the arms the 'wrong' way around, if you see what I mean.

Interesting to keep abreast (or adorsal….!) of your work which I do fro time to time.

All best wishes,

Alun

Alun Thomas MSTAT

Professional Violinist and Alexander Technique teacher,

Senior Alexander Technique teacher and Alexander Technique Coordinator

Trinity Laban Conservatoire of Music and Dance

Greenwich

London.

www.alexandertechniqueforviolinists.com

www.thealexandertechniqueconsultancy.co.uk

07817 091385

01753 855350

Also teaches at:

Bloomsbury Alexander Centre

Bristol House

80a Southampton Row

London WC1B 4BB

Home Address:

Central Windsor, Berkshire

---

Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2014 08:38:17 -0700
From: ohnj.p...@gmail.com
To: alex...@googlegroups.com
CC: gavinmccl...@gmail.com
Subject: [alextech-list] Re: Variations on constructive rest

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[gavinmccloskey2007]

Hi John, Alun, list, 

An interesting and unexpected reply, John. Thank you. Actually, I guess that when I say I do constructive rest I am actually really doing meditation or visualisation while lying in the constructive rest posture, and with eyes closed, rather than open, which is, I think the standard AT way. Actually, the eyes open versus eyes closed choice is also something I would like to see debated here. 

You have both made me think, though, whether it might be worth experimenting with another position while visualising or meditating. John, I think you do most of your imagery while sitting? Alun, I have tried the face down way, but didn't take to it so much. Might be worth experimenting with again though. 

Sent from Samsung Mobile

[John Appleton]

Hi Alun, Gavin, and others,

 

Alun - 

I like that you sense in the "other constructive rest position" approach that "It's very much an embrace I find and quite a safe place too." The classic (on our back) position does foster "spread eagle" and "falling apart" when inhibition is not employed. But it should, therefore, be thought of as challenging like standing or sanding on one leg or whatever, not as a reward of some sort, where feeling good is always a mixed bag, involving some healthy impulses and some not. I do think that it is an easy place for teachers to "work on" students, "taking their head" and what all... and it is an easy place for students to remember (dare I say re-imagine) good feelings they have had from hands-on experiences on or off the table.But inhibition is something that can be employed when we know what and where and to what extent... to inhibit. I have always thought that inhibition as a concept works after the results of this inhibition have been already experienced... via hands-on or imagery. Then we are re-inhibiting.

 

I will say that I am not sure of the value of the ventral down form of "rest" either when it is or can only be partially carried out. The completeness of the ventral support device that I am slowly working on is very important. I think that the sensation on all areas, large or small, of the ventral surface that it, too, is being supported is necessary to its success as a place to have new refreshing experiences. I see the need that all (or almost all) of the surface, in the director segment as well, plays a roll in support. There should not be too much dependence on any area to support... on the chest, butt, feet or elsewhere (I guess I mentioned this in my earlier post). Therefore, I need to sometime to complete a prototype to know if I am right. 

 

Gavin -

As I say above, I don't think that a complete ventral support position is easily possible (without the equipment) so I wouldn't recommend lying down prone more than supine. Maybe a long bean bag with a supporting pole, up the back or middle, placed at an angle could come close to being right. Wish I had lots of expendable income. I'd be doing experimenting with things like this and state-of-the-art animation imagery.

As for eyes open or shut during meditation and/or imagery, I suppose try it both ways at different times. As always, the inclination or "desire" within in the eyelids is more important than the reality. Do they "want" to be open or closed. Closed eyes that "want" to be open do not offer much peace because they are closed whereas open eyes that "want" to be closed may actually offer that peaceful state useful to meditation. What do you think?

Incidentally, I imagine standing, walking (used to when running), sitting, and lying down. You just have to be not too caught up with the world or even your comfort level. That might make sitting or lying down best for people fairly new to imagery, but over time imagery can lighten one up from all sorts things of the world, both as conditions of use and manner of use.

Best, John

[alun thomas]

Hi John, all,

Yes, thanks for post…….prone has difficulties attached, too, naturally and specific points of support (from your 

reference) seem limited. The idea of SS being a reward, though, might be very hard to dispel. And I get more benefit from the attitude, when I least feel that I need it, if you see what I mean…...

The main slight 'objection' to SS lying down is not that it is not valuable, but that it can be misunderstood as a major part of changing the conditions of use. There is 'opposition' there, but not a 'tensional' balance unless we add different activities. 

I'm looking forward to you chair with much expectation. 

Best,

Alun

Alun Thomas MSTAT

Professional Violinist and Alexander Technique teacher,

Senior Alexander Technique teacher and Alexander Technique Coordinator

Trinity Laban Conservatoire of Music and Dance

Greenwich

London.

www.alexandertechniqueforviolinists.com

www.thealexandertechniqueconsultancy.co.uk

07817 091385

01753 855350

Also teaches at:

Bloomsbury Alexander Centre

Bristol House

80a Southampton Row

London WC1B 4BB

Home Address:

Central Windsor, Berkshire

---

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 13:54:58 -0700
From: ohnj.p...@gmail.com
To: alex...@googlegroups.com
CC: ohnj.p...@gmail.com; gavinmccl...@gmail.com; alun....@hotmail.co.uk
Subject: Re: [alextech-list] Re: Variations on constructive rest

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Alun,

On 1 April 2014 13:07, alun thomas <alun....@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

.... a major part of changing the conditions of use. There is 'opposition' there, but not a 'tensional' balance.....

I'd be interested to know what 'opposition' and 'tensional' balance are and how both produce changes in Conditions of Use.. 

Keith.

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Gavin,

On 31 March 2014 08:45, gavinmccloskey2007 <gavinmccl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually, I guess that when I say I do constructive rest I am actually really doing meditation or visualisation while lying in the constructive rest posture, and with eyes closed, rather than open, which is, I think the standard AT way. Actually,

One part of semi-suppine is table work where a teacher moves a person to encourage tension & fascia 

release/letting go, teach inhibition of reflexive pulls and calm the nervous system. I found

that valuable. For a person who is highly stressed like I was it is common teachers do this at the start of a lesson. I think this may be necessary when the pupils nervous system might excite the teachers. I guess Alexander didn't do table work as he had such control of his system he could always 'drive' the pupil.  

AT is always taught with eyes open because Alexander's idea was to get somatic change in a state
close to normality. Most AT people think it is a mistake to get it in 'altered states'  as what is learned or what changes there won't apply to daily life. That's an idea I rejected after experiences of yoga/meditation.

No one in AT or any somatic method ever states that people should try to bring proprioception
into consciousness, but I think that is what lying SS without being worked on by a teacher is
supposed to encourage. If so for most people I think it comes faster with the eyes shut and in a
state of deep relaxation. Sitting or after stimulating and freeing the system with yoga lying on the back.

I knew an old lady who lay semi-supine for periods during the day purely because
 her back got tired. She hadn't had hundreds of AT lessons. An AT teacher presumably doesn't need this. 

Keith

[Pete Green]

Hi Gavin, John, Keith, Alun, and others,

Don't post here much, have thought about it on many occasion. And after reading several of your posts, I've wanted to share some of my experiences as well. I'm not an AT teacher, have probably had about 8 AT lessons over the past 8 years. Spent about a year with Eyebody (solo practice), and then found John Appleton's PRI images that I've stuck with as a means to improve my use without having a teacher available, or relying on a teacher.

I practice constructive rest quite frequently, and also have been following John Appleton's imagery for about 7 years now. It is interesting to hear that John doesn't find it useful, at least for himself. I think it is quite useful for those of us who's muscular systems are pretty twisted up and haven't yet the strength or efficiency of solo inhibition, or not quite yet the full understanding and application of dorsal-ventral imagery and its variations.

The images are quite helpful, and if I had them in my head the same way JA does, I might not use something like semi-supine.

I call them "lie-downs" to make it simple! I've found that how you get into a lie-down, what you do while you're in the floor, and how you get up are all big pieces of the whole lie-down-pie. 

Philip Pawley, an AT teacher no-longer-with-us, had a page/business called smiling-back method. He was a big proponent of SS, but his idea was frequency vs length of time. So something like 30 second - 2 minute stints every hour or so (sometimes even every 15 minutes right when you notice a pull down... get on the floor and see how it releases...again, the how of getting back up from the floor is important.... ). He would say, the person who lies down many times throughout the day often learns much more than the person who only lies down once or twice a day (morning/night). I haven't found this to be un-true.

We need a way to release the over-used muscles used in uprighting so the deeper postural muscles can have a chance to engage and begin to strengthen for easy uprighting. Frequent lie downs allow the larger muscle groups to relax from all that uprighting work, and getting back up well encourages deeper postural muscles (mostly ventral?) to engage and strengthen. Philip's website is nolonger what it used to be since he passed, however if there is interest in his writings, I have his articles and a small e-book he wrote up on semi-supine (How's and Why's of Semi-Supine). Would be happy to share, would hate for that work to be lost.

Lie-downs on my ventral side (prone) have been nice as well, but there of course is the issue of lack of curved ventral support by the floor which leaves a bit to be desired. A couple books under the sternum can be helpful in this position, but a ventral chair of sorts is definitely desired. John and I chat about this semi-frequently.

I will try some of the crossed arm position and see how that helps. I wonder if my "type" might already be good at that arm position, so the arms open wide might be a more efficient fit if my patterns are considered. 

About imagery while on the floor: The book and floor give you support to squirm around a bit while the images are employed, sometimes I allow this, sometimes I don't. Allowing Freedom at AO joins and Hip joints while keeping Dorsal ventral imagery in mind is a good inhibitory impulse for me while in SS. The type specific imagery is also good to experiment while in the ground as well, any of the types (other than your own) will give a probable-new'ish experience for you and your muscles/feelings. I also utilize the the Conables's body mapping ideas as well. It's a bit of a hodge-podge of images and AT inhibitory thoughts for me.

However, like John mentions, a turtle on its back is having a bad day. The more appropriate relationship to gravity is dorsal facing upward, and ventral down... SS is a bit backwards to that "natural relationship". However, humans are blessed with many movement options, many more movement options than other creatures, so I wouldn't say this is a "bad position", and it has given me much benefit over the years. A good Dorsal-Ventral image allowed to take place in my body (Director/Face included in the images) while on the floor will begin to turn my head and flip me over, I sometimes use this as a means to get up as I've had some success on the floor, and typically not looking to be down there for extended periods of time (unless it feels too good).

Would be happy to share more, if this is found to be interesting. Otherwise I may go back in my lurking-hole.

My thinking is, if it helps, use it until it's not needed anymore. 

Regards

Pete

[John Appleton]

Hello Pete, Alun, Gavin, Keith, and undeclared followers,

Pete, I was unaware the Philip had died. I see on the Smiling Back Method Facebook page, https://www.facebook.com/SmilingBackMethod?sk=wall&filter=2 , that is has been over two years. That is really too bad. I found one reference to it on the internet. He had many very appreciative followers. Pete, you could write a note on that page (and maybe elsewhere) that someone may yet see, concerning materials you have and would be somehow will to share. 

 

 

 

I wanted to add another picture for people to consider. I am no artist and also not a whiz a designing... but not terrible at it. In this picture I am merely sneaking in on the requirements of what I consider would be a successful "ventral support device." A final version, if ever made, would not look much like this, perhaps. But the requirements that I am trying to build into it are simplicity, relatively equal weight distribution between  the butt, legs, belly, chest, arms, and even some weight on the neck and chin. Don't know how I would handle under the eyes and funny places like that. The plan is to get a SENSATION throughout the ventral surface that it is supported. 

I also include a couple of other drawings to show "where I am going with this. If a person had to apply a little ventral contraction to keep from sliding down this tube (or semi- egg or whatever it ends up looking like), probably so much the better. And perhaps a teacher could still get their hands on this student and nudge out a little more change.
 

   

Best wishes, John
  

On Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:38:35 PM UTC-5, gavin mccloskey wrote:

[gavinmccloskey2007]

Hi Pete, 

Great to have a fresh voice in the forum. 

You are right, I think, to remind us of the importance of going into and getting out of CR. I am usually pretty sloppy regarding this. Interesting idea to use PRI to bring about a smooth turning over from back to front. 

Long sessions of CR versus short ones, I would imagine the ideal would be to do both. Long sessions to go a bit deeper and shorter ones to maintain gains. 

Please do share the eBook! Sure folks would appreciate it. 

Thanks! 

Gavin 

Sent from Samsung Mobile

Pete Green <swin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Gavin,

Don't post here much, have thought about it on many occasion. And after reading several of your posts, I've wanted to share some of my experiences as well. I'm not an AT teacher, have probably had about 8 AT lessons over the past 8 years. Spent about a year with Eyebody (solo practice), and then found John Appleton's PRI images that I've stuck with as a means to improve my use without having a teacher available, or relying on a teacher.

I practice constructive rest quite frequently, and also have been following John Appleton's imagery for about 7 years now. It is interesting to hear that John doesn't find it useful, at least for himself. I think it is quite useful for those of us who's muscular systems are pretty twisted up and haven't yet the strength or efficiency of solo inhibition, or not quite yet the full understanding and application of dorsal-ventral imagery and its variations.

The images are quite helpful, and if I had them in my head the same way JA does, I might not use something like semi-supine.

I call them "lie-downs" to make it simple! I've found that how you get into a lie-down, what you do while you're in the floor, and how you get up are all big pieces of the whole lie-down-pie. 

Philip Pawley, an AT teacher no-longer-with-us, had a page/business called smiling-back method. He was a big proponent of SS, but his idea was frequency vs length of time. So something like 30 second - 2 minute stints every hour or so (sometimes even every 15 minutes right when you notice a pull down... get on the floor and see how it releases...again, the how of getting back up from the floor is important.... ). He would say, the person who lies down many times throughout the day often learns much more than the person who only lies down once or twice a day (morning/night). I haven't found this to be un-true.

We need a way to release the over-used muscles used in uprighting so the deeper postural muscles can have a chance to engage and begin to strengthen for easy uprighting. Frequent lie downs allow the larger muscle groups to relax from all that uprighting work, and getting back up well encourages deeper postural muscles (mostly ventral?) to engage and strengthen. Philip's website is nolonger what it used to be since he passed, however if there is interest in his writings, I have his articles and a small e-book he wrote up on semi-supine (How's and Why's of Semi-Supine). Would be happy to share, would hate for that work to be lost.

Lie-downs on my ventral side (prone) have been nice as well, but there of course is the issue of lack of curved ventral support by the floor which leaves a bit to be desired. A couple books under the sternum can be helpful in this position, but a ventral chair of sorts is definitely desired. John and I chat about this semi-frequently.

I will try some of the crossed arm position and see how that helps. I wonder if my "type" might already be good at that arm position, so the arms open wide might be a more efficient fit if my patterns are considered. 

About imagery while on the floor: The book and floor give you support to squirm around a bit while the images are employed, sometimes I allow this, sometimes I don't. Allowing Freedom at AO joins and Hip joints while keeping Dorsal ventral imagery in mind is a good inhibitory impulse for me while in SS. The type specific imagery is also good to experiment while in the ground as well, any of the types (other than your own) will give a probable-new'ish experience for you and your muscles/feelings. I also utilize the the Conables's body mapping ideas as well. It's a bit of a hodge-podge of images and AT inhibitory thoughts for me.

However, like John mentions, a turtle on its back is having a bad day. The more appropriate relationship to gravity is dorsal facing upward, and ventral down... SS is a bit backwards to that "natural relationship". However, humans are blessed with many movement options, many more movement options than other creatures, so I wouldn't say this is a "bad position", and it has given me much benefit over the years. A good Dorsal-Ventral image allowed to take place in my body (Director/Face included in the images) while on the floor will begin to turn my head and flip me over, I sometimes use this as a means to get up as I've had some success on the floor, and typically not looking to be down there for extended periods of time (unless it feels too good).

Would be happy to share more, if this is found to be interesting. Otherwise I may go back in my lurking-hole.

My thinking is, if it helps, use it until it's not needed anymore. 

Regards

Pete

On Monday, March 31, 2014 12:45:39 AM UTC-7, gavin mccloskey wrote:

Hi John, Alun, list, 

An interesting and unexpected reply, John. Thank you. Actually, I guess that when I say I do constructive rest I am actually really doing meditation or visualisation while lying in the constructive rest posture, and with eyes closed, rather than open, which is, I think the standard AT way. Actually, the eyes open versus eyes closed choice is also something I would like to see debated here. 

You have both made me think, though, whether it might be worth experimenting with another position while visualising or meditating. John, I think you do most of your imagery while sitting? Alun, I have tried the face down way, but didn't take to it so much. Might be worth experimenting with again though. 

Sent from Samsung Mobile

John Appleton <ohnj.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Gavin,

 

I don't find the whole question of constructive rest that interesting anymore. I have been at this mind-body business for a long time and I have not learned much from constructive rest. I find my imagery more powerful and so I don't do lie downs or even suggest them. To me the fact that it is something akin to a turtle on its back means that it can be counter-productive as well as productive.

 

 

I do want some day, for fun, to make some version of a ventral supporting, dorsal releasing device like I illustrate here. It would mimic the ventrally supported young on mothers' backs. It seems probable that if sufficient parts of the ventral surface are supported, even lightly so, that the dorsal would feel free... to be free. Supporting most all of the ventral surface would be key, even to the point where most of the body's weight would not feel overly-supported by one point, say the feet, butt, chest, or anywhere ventral but more or less equally. The idea comes from the natural body position that astronauts were found to fall into when in zero gravity and the position takes on a little more of the "lamb and egg" image look. It is not "straightened" as it is by the body in response to gravity.

  

John

http://posturereleaseimagery.org/ 

https://www.facebook.com/posturereleaseimagery 

http://www.youtube.com/calmuptensedown 

https://twitter.com/postureimagery 

[gavinmccloskey2007]

Hey Keith, 

I also feel that lying on the back has a fairly profound effect on the nervous system.

Eyes open versus closed. Might there be merit in both? Closed would bring more proprioceptive gains, open would help the transition from CR to everyday life. 

Missy Vineyard is definitely against feeling things out, as Alexander was. I sometimes wonder if this focusing attention around the prefrontal cortex while inhibiting and directing DOES bring about a slight hypnotic state. It feels to me very similar to the feeling of mantra meditation, which some claim has a hypnotic effect. 

Again, I think there is merit in both and they probably have different but complementary effects. 

Sent from Samsung Mobile

Keith Bacon <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Gavin,

On 31 March 2014 08:45, gavinmccloskey2007 <gavinmccl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually, I guess that when I say I do constructive rest I am actually really doing meditation or visualisation while lying in the constructive rest posture, and with eyes closed, rather than open, which is, I think the standard AT way. Actually,

One part of semi-suppine is table work where a teacher moves a person to encourage tension & fascia 

release/letting go, teach inhibition of reflexive pulls and calm the nervous system. I found

that valuable. For a person who is highly stressed like I was it is common teachers do this at the start of a lesson. I think this may be necessary when the pupils nervous system might excite the teachers. I guess Alexander didn't do table work as he had such control of his system he could always 'drive' the pupil.  

AT is always taught with eyes open because Alexander's idea was to get somatic change in a state
close to normality. Most AT people think it is a mistake to get it in 'altered states'  as what is learned or what changes there won't apply to daily life. That's an idea I rejected after experiences of yoga/meditation.

No one in AT or any somatic method ever states that people should try to bring proprioception
into consciousness, but I think that is what lying SS without being worked on by a teacher is
supposed to encourage. If so for most people I think it comes faster with the eyes shut and in a
state of deep relaxation. Sitting or after stimulating and freeing the system with yoga lying on the back.

I knew an old lady who lay semi-supine for periods during the day purely because
 her back got tired. She hadn't had hundreds of AT lessons. An AT teacher presumably doesn't need this. 

Keith

[gavinmccloskey2007]

Hi John, 

Lots of interesting points here! Would love to have a try on your ventral support chair if you ever get it going! This, I guess, would encourage more the reward type attitude than a challenge. Both approaches to CR seem to have merit I think.

Sent from Samsung Mobile

John Appleton <ohnj.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Gavin,

 

I don't find the whole question of constructive rest that interesting anymore. I have been at this mind-body business for a long time and I have not learned much from constructive rest. I find my imagery more powerful and so I don't do lie downs or even suggest them. To me the fact that it is something akin to a turtle on its back means that it can be counter-productive as well as productive.

 

 

I do want some day, for fun, to make some version of a ventral supporting, dorsal releasing device like I illustrate here. It would mimic the ventrally supported young on mothers' backs. It seems probable that if sufficient parts of the ventral surface are supported, even lightly so, that the dorsal would feel free... to be free. Supporting most all of the ventral surface would be key, even to the point where most of the body's weight would not feel overly-supported by one point, say the feet, butt, chest, or anywhere ventral but more or less equally. The idea comes from the natural body position that astronauts were found to fall into when in zero gravity and the position takes on a little more of the "lamb and egg" image look. It is not "straightened" as it is by the body in response to gravity.

  

John

http://posturereleaseimagery.org/ 

https://www.facebook.com/posturereleaseimagery 

http://www.youtube.com/calmuptensedown 

https://twitter.com/postureimagery 

On Saturday, March 29, 2014 7:38:35 PM UTC-5, gavin mccloskey wrote:

I have recently been experimenting with this position for constructive rest, which was developed by Lulu Sweigard.

Feels pretty good, there seems to be something very soothing about the arms hanging over the front of the body, and perhaps this gives better feedback of what is happening in the organs, particularly the heart. 

Details here:

http://yogaphysicaltherapy.com/blog/the-best-way-to-relax.html

John, you might find this a good position for increasing perception of dorsal / ventral sensations, with the ventral areas of the arms and chest being bunched together in this way. 

Wondering if anyone cares to share their experience with different takes on positions for constructive rest. 

Sent from Samsung Mobile

[Keith Bacon]

Hi Gavin,

> Eyes open versus closed. Might there be merit in both?|

I think so. Much meditation is done with eyes open, some while moving.

> Missy Vineyard is definitely against feeling things out, as Alexander was.

Feeling things out with faulty kinaesthesia is bad in the sense that
if you are trying to feel how you are 'using yourself' you will get
the wrong message - initially you can't feel your head going back and
down or most of the other symptoms of poor use.
However in the AT world this gets taken to mean training to increase
proprioceptive awareness is not a good idea. I think it is the best
thing a person can do tohelp with somatic change and to learn by
direct experience many aspects of our functioing that otherwise would
remain unconcious.

> ... sometimes wonder if this focusing attention around the prefrontal cortex

> while inhibiting and directing DOES bring about a slight hypnotic state. It
> feels to me very similar to the feeling of mantra meditation, which some
> claim has a hypnotic effect.

I was taught it has been scientifically shown that mantra's stimulate
the Vagus nerve, a main part of the para-sympathetic nervous system
(the sound OM actually working was well as or better than any other).
Hypnosis is defined as the nervous system sleeping while consciousness
remains alert - so indeed this is what happens in meditation and yoga.
It happens a little bit in AT too but it not sought out or encouraged.
I once had three people doing AT table work on me and we all went off
to zen happy land - to the disapproval of the teachers!

> Again, I think there is merit in both and they probably have different but
> complementary effects.

You have to be careful mixing and matching, but you can also learn
from different sources. One of the big lessons for me was that the
differences between different somatic systems aren't as great as many
people would like them to be. Figuring out what you are aiming for is
the hard part!. Figuring out who knows what they are talking about is
too!

Keith

[Pete Green]

Sure thing Gavin, would be happy to share with the group.

Attached is the Hows and Why's of Semi-Supine PDF written by Philip Pawley in 2010.

Many of the links in the PDF are no longer active except for the youtube links.

His youtube page with some fun/helpful videos to watch is here: https://www.youtube.com/user/backmagician

Thanks for all the help Philip!

PG

[John Appleton]

Hello Gavin and others,

Thank you, Gavin, for your comments and interest. As the progenitor of this discussion, you have done a good job of encouraging and showing appreciation for thoughtful involvement.

Before this discussion draws to a close, as it no doubt will, I would like to make a few more points. Those who enjoy and value semi-supine (or constructive rest) could find them useful later if not now.

First, I think that there should be a greater effort to define what healthy or valuable principles are involved in the act of lying semi-supine. Obviously, meditation or thinking of all kinds can be part of a lie down, including planning the rest of your day’s activities, for instance. But what are the principles that help take or return the body to health. I’ll leave it to others who are interested to point or list them.)

I count my successes in life from having noted, or discovered, and then absorbed “archetypal” principles (and my failures from not). It is principles and the deepening exploration and refining of those principles that free us and make us whole, physically, mentally, emotionally, and/or spiritually. I know that one can take on the point of view that whatever works is good and principles are not important, but I find that those things that work, when they stop working so well or stop feeling good, leave one with no overarching truth to still pursue.

The imagery I have discovered and the ventral support device I have presented here are based on principles… and those principles can act upon us even if the device never is made. It seems that you may be experiencing some of these principles yourself when you suggest that my ventral support device “would encourage more of the reward attitude…”. Just thinking about it (imagining) may have given you a sense or a bit of the “reward” and its value. In contrast, thinking of semi-supine as a place to “challenge” oneself (to inhibit or whatever) is problematic. Lying back in an easy chair could also be considered a place to “challenge” ourselves, but that hasn’t justified its use as such.

I know that books under the head and knees up tend to allow the back of neck and lower back, for instance, to release (a principle! ). But I wanted more from the lie down for my students. Then, years ago, aside from the usually “taking” of the head and neck, arms, legs, and so forth, I made wedges for use in various places, depending on where I judged needed. For instance, I would wedge up shoulders into more of a rounded back for some and wedge up hips for others, which would tend to make keeping raised knees from falling out. I also have small semi-soft sponges (play football halves, really) for placing between the shoulder blade or at base of tail, depending where needed. It was a bunch of work that did off-set some of the shortcomings of having a student on their dorsal back on a flat table, but  it left much to be desired... like the most beneficial gravitational forces.

   

So I also, early on, started placing people on a very low massage table (at a chair seat height) on their knees and then folded into a fetal position. I proceeded to give them an image (in a gentle voice) to think about… being comfortably inside an eggshell (and sometimes holding a smaller egg as well). I used my hands, as well, to lightly encourage release of all parts dorsal and verbally asking them to imagine the contracting of their ventral surface to make the fetal position snugger.

The image exercise is not near complete and I will complete its write up (instructions) if I get a few (let’s say a half-dozen) people who write here to request I do so. Suffice it to say that it is the best use of the table (or floor) that I have ever found. It almost always produces wonderful results. (But maybe my hands and sweet voice are the clincher).

Now it's finally time to give you all a rest… of your choice. Best wishes, 

John

http://posturereleaseimagery.org/ 

[gavinmccloskey2007]

Hi John, 

Would be very interested in those instructions! Why not just record an MP3 of them if you would be so kind. Would take you less time too, as an added bonus :). This pose, similar to Child's pose in yoga, would seem very suitable for PRI. 

Thanks a lot for your thoughtful replies. 

Gavin 

[sraj]

Hello John,

The fetal position shown atop a table looks promising as an additional position for release of tension. It is probably important that the feet should be positioned as shown. Adult Muslims when they genuflect, as I have pointed out earlier, do not hold their feet this way - which probably is a part of the overall problem of faulty adult posture.

Best Wishes,

Selvaraj

[Keith Bacon]

Hi John,

On 4 April 2014 02:50, John Appleton <ohnj.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

... I think that there should be a greater effort to define what healthy or valuable principles are involved in the act of lying semi-supine.

I hoped for some other answers to this.

 

Obviously, meditation or thinking of all kinds can be part of a lie down

Are you implying meditation is a kind of thinking?  For many it is stopping thinking so other parts of the system can better sort themselves out. 

The only thing I can recall being said explicity about lying SS is that it allows the postural systems of the spine to rest.

In AT school when I mentioned I was starting to sense more of my body a few teachers said that was a good thing - I took this to mean using the stillness to increase proprioceptive awareness was part of the aim. But that is a kind of meditation not AT.  So once again there was this overlap betwen different methods and confusion about what I was trying to acheive.  

Keith. 

[gavinmccloskey2007]

Thanks Pete! 

Read this yesterday and experimented with it yesterday and this morning and I have to say it feels pretty good. There does seem to be value in doing this as frequently as every 10 minutes. Yesterday when I did that over the course of the afternoon and evening, while at home, I noticed that my neck relaxed progressively during the head nodding he suggests while lowering into semi supine. There was also a definite lightness after each brief one minute session as I resumed normal activity. So this is definitely something I will experiment with more, hopefully consistently over the next few weeks, and will keep you updated on progress. 

I like his explanation of the need for regular short lie downstairs in order to rest the dormant muscles that come into play again after maybe years of neglect, once you start working on yourself. 

Thanks again! 

You mentioned eyebody in a previous email, by the way. How did you find that? Any simple tips for us? 

Gavin 

Gavin

Sent from Samsung Mobile

Pete Green <swin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sure thing Gavin, would be happy to share with the group.

Attached is the Hows and Why's of Semi-Supine PDF written by Philip Pawley in 2010.

Many of the links in the PDF are no longer active except for the youtube links.

His youtube page with some fun/helpful videos to watch is here: https://www.youtube.com/user/backmagician

Thanks for all the help Philip!

PG

On Thursday, April 3, 2014 1:35:31 AM UTC-7, gavin mccloskey wrote:

Hi Pete, 

Great to have a fresh voice in the forum. 

You are right, I think, to remind us of the importance of going into and getting out of CR. I am usually pretty sloppy regarding this. Interesting idea to use PRI to bring about a smooth turning over from back to front. 

Long sessions of CR versus short ones, I would imagine the ideal would be to do both. Long sessions to go a bit deeper and shorter ones to maintain gains. 

Please do share the eBook! Sure folks would appreciate it. 

Thanks! 

Gavin 

Sent from Samsung Mobile

Pete Green <swin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Gavin,

Don't post here much, have thought about it on many occasion. And after reading several of your posts, I've wanted to share some of my experiences as well. I'm not an AT teacher, have probably had about 8 AT lessons over the past 8 years. Spent about a year with Eyebody (solo practice), and then found John Appleton's PRI images that I've stuck with as a means to improve my use without having a teacher available, or relying on a teacher.

I practice constructive rest quite frequently, and also have been following John Appleton's imagery for about 7 years now. It is interesting to hear that John doesn't find it useful, at least for himself. I think it is quite useful for those of us who's muscular systems are pretty twisted up and haven't yet the strength or efficiency of solo inhibition, or not quite yet the full understanding and application of dorsal-ventral imagery and its variations.

The images are quite helpful, and if I had them in my head the same way JA does, I might not use something like semi-supine.

I call them "lie-downs" to make it simple! I've found that how you get into a lie-down, what you do while you're in the floor, and how you get up are all big pieces of the whole lie-down-pie. 

Philip Pawley, an AT teacher no-longer-with-us, had a page/business called smiling-back method. He was a big proponent of SS, but his idea was frequency vs length of time. So something like 30 second - 2 minute stints every hour or so (sometimes even every 15 minutes right when you notice a pull down... get on the floor and see how it releases...again, the how of getting back up from the floor is important.... ). He would say, the person who lies down many times throughout the day often learns much more than the person who only lies down once or twice a day (morning/night). I haven't found this to be un-true.

We need a way to release the over-used muscles used in uprighting so the deeper postural muscles can have a chance to engage and begin to strengthen for easy uprighting. Frequent lie downs allow the larger muscle groups to relax from all that uprighting work, and getting back up well encourages deeper postural muscles (mostly ventral?) to engage and strengthen. Philip's website is nolonger what it used to be since he passed, however if there is interest in his writings, I have his articles and a small e-book he wrote up on semi-supine (How's and Why's of Semi-Supine). Would be happy to share, would hate for that work to be lost.

Lie-downs on my ventral side (prone) have been nice as well, but there of course is the issue of lack of curved ventral support by the floor which leaves a bit to be desired. A couple books under the sternum can be helpful in this position, but a ventral chair of sorts is definitely desired. John and I chat about this semi-frequently.

I will try some of the crossed arm position and see how that helps. I wonder if my "type" might already be good at that arm position, so the arms open wide might be a more efficient fit if my patterns are considered. 

About imagery while on the floor: The book and floor give you support to squirm around a bit while the images are employed, sometimes I allow this, sometimes I don't. Allowing Freedom at AO joins and Hip joints while keeping Dorsal ventral imagery in mind is a good inhibitory impulse for me while in SS. The type specific imagery is also good to experiment while in the ground as well, any of the types (other than your own) will give a probable-new'ish experience for you and your muscles/feelings. I also utilize the the Conables's body mapping ideas as well. It's a bit of a hodge-podge of images and AT inhibitory thoughts for me.

However, like John mentions, a turtle on its back is having a bad day. The more appropriate relationship to gravity is dorsal facing upward, and ventral down... SS is a bit backwards to that "natural relationship". However, humans are blessed with many movement options, many more movement options than other creatures, so I wouldn't say this is a "bad position", and it has given me much benefit over the years. A good Dorsal-Ventral image allowed to take place in my body (Director/Face included in the images) while on the floor will begin to turn my head and flip me over, I sometimes use this as a means to get up as I've had some success on the floor, and typically not looking to be down there for extended periods of time (unless it feels too good).

Would be happy to share more, if this is found to be interesting. Otherwise I may go back in my lurking-hole.

My thinking is, if it helps, use it until it's not needed anymore. 

Regards

Pete

On Monday, March 31, 2014 12:45:39 AM UTC-7, gavin mccloskey wrote:

Hi John, Alun, list, 

An interesting and unexpected reply, John. Thank you. Actually, I guess that when I say I do constructive rest I am actually really doing meditation or visualisation while lying in the constructive rest posture, and with eyes closed, rather than open, which is, I think the standard AT way. Actually, the eyes open versus eyes closed choice is also something I would like to see debated here. 

You have both made me think, though, whether it might be worth experimenting with another position while visualising or meditating. John, I think you do most of your imagery while sitting? Alun, I have tried the face down way, but didn't take to it so much. Might be worth experimenting with again though. 

[John Appleton]

Hi Gavin,

 

If I get those imagery exercise instructions out for my PRI Facebook page followers, I'll send you a link. There's no interest here in PRI. Basically, the important instructions for this fetal position exercise involve how to get most deeply into it and then how to break out of the "shell" in a new way.
 
I have made and put four slideshows-with-sound on YouTube but have not received any note concerning them from alextech-list people that I am aware of... so anything like an MP3 I would put on the backburner as well. I think that I need to peacefully just allow what will be... to be, though that is not easy for me.

John

[Chris A Rapley]

Hello list,

I haven’t posted on alextech for some time, and though I have digested a few emails and followed threads a bit –lately I’m very out of touch with postings.

 

I remember reading that Philip Pawley died some while ago. There was I’m sure an announcement in STAT News. It is very sad – he was such a superb promoter and had genuinely useful insights and tips. No doubt he was a gifted and very committed Alexander teacher.

 

He had a page on Facebook, which I just had a look at.  Tragically, he died rather suddenly of pancreatic cancer just before Christmas 2011 I believe. 

I think his family may at some point publish some of his work – that would be very good. 

 

Best,

 

Chris Rapley

   

From: alex...@googlegroups.com [mailto:alex...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Pete Green
Sent: 03 April 2014 20:08
To: alex...@googlegroups.com
Cc: swin...@gmail.com; ohnj.p...@gmail.com; gavinmccl...@gmail.com; gavinmccloskey2007
Subject: [alextech-list] Re: Variations on constructive rest

 

Sure thing Gavin, would be happy to share with the group.

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