Bib Tags

[rprout]

Wanted to start a discussion on How some of you are successfully using bib tags. I started to use this method this year and have had great results. Some of the people I am working with have also done this but have had mixed results. I am looking for info on Tags, Tag attachment to bibs, Antenna positioning, Equipment used, Cables used, Cable lengths, finishline and read position, and any other bits of advice. I have been using a truss setup with one tag (Dogbone) positioned center top on the bibs, truss is approximately 5' from the finishline, used both FX7400 and FX7500 with LMN195 cables 3'-20' lengths, truss is 10' wide with the bottom of the top truss approximately 7.5' high,

I used shoe tags last year but have had frequent requests from clients to use bib tags.

[Crystal McCullough]

I don't use bib tags, but I would appreciate that those that do also add to their post why they chose to use bib tags over shoe/hip tags. Are you mainly using tags on bibs because it is kind of expected and other timers do it? Or, like rprout, is it because clients ask for it? 

Also, how do you get the tags back? Or do you? Do you charge more because you don't get them back?

[rprout]

My tags are on a roll and I peel them off and stick them on the bib. I know that there has been some comments about expense. Right now it cost me $.34 per tag and bib.

[Scovel Racing]

I use the same type of setup, fx7500, overhead truss, LMR195 up to 20' and LMR240 for my 25'. For the last two years I've ran in at least one race a month. All the races I've been to are either Overhead or Mats, I've only been to two races that used shoe tags and it was for Obstacle course races, never a road race. Also all the companies in the PacNW seem to place the chips directly in the middle of the bib (I believe they do this so its away from the pins and not tightly against the shirt/skin.

At my last XC meet I placed the chips on the top of the bib, had 222 runners show up and 4 misreads. I will be placing the chip in the center of the bibs next race to see if there is any difference.

I tell the runners they can keep the bib/chip, it does get a little expensive since I'm just volunteering my time/service ... but it's sure a lot of fun!

[Susannah Cole]

Where did you guys get the overhead truss, and how much was it? Also, if
you are using the dogbone, are you also using the foam spacer behind it?

Thanks

[Peak Performance Timing]

I see in your picture, that one of the antennas on the top is inverted with reference to the other one on the top. Is this intentional and does it have benefit?

[Peak Performance Timing]

My question was about rprout's picture 

[rprout]

Got the truss and clamps from On-Stage Stands, we're a dealer so they were cheap, the clamps are the most expensive. I have foam spacers but have not used them, really haven't, planned to use them if I did any type of extreme run.

[rprout]

No the label came upside down, antenna stem is up on both.

[Scovel Racing]

Ebay
OnStage Truss - (stands & truss) $180 w/free shipping

ProAudio Truss - (stands& truss) $130 w/free shipping

Truss only - $60 w/free shipping

The ProAudio Truss appears to be lower quality

I actually bought an OnStage stand/truss system from Musicians Friend about 10 years ago, since then I disposed the truss section thinking I would never need it again...lol, so I ended up buying that 10' Truss section I listed above, it appears to be OnStage

I don't use foam pads on my bib chips (it might help, but I think the cost is more than the benefit)

[pbti...@gmail.com]

I’m still experimenting with the positioning of the tags, we’re lucky in that we organise our own trail races so can trial the timing tags without having to worry about making mistakes.

With the tags on the shoes we found that during our races through water & mud we didn’t have any problems, however there was a tendency for some to snag on heather & low brush-our courses can be pretty testing! We had a good read rate, but after a run in the cold & wet runners want to get dried off, so retrieving tags from muddy shoes & wet athletes presented its own  difficulties.

I’ve tried the tags on the bibs-I have some photos which I’ll post up, I put the tags on the front of the bib at the top centre, the tag was kept off the bib with small foam double sided pads in each corner. When the runner came over the line it was a simple matter to pull off the tag & later on replace the pad. Out of 120 runners we lost around 4 or 5 misreads, this could be attributed to misalignment of the antenna-we had them facing down the finish line at a slight angle-or the runner could have hidden the tag with their arm as they stopped their watches.

Tomorrow we’re trying out the tags in our Tufty Trail Race with over 200+ runners, we’re going to put the tags on the side of the shorts & use the antenna to side scan, I’ll let you know how this works & post up some photos.

Cheers  Tony  

[mstompro]

Bob, what kind of read rates do you get with that setup?

[rtspt.usa]

Dog bones vertically on the front of the bib for now. 

using both the side antennas and mat antennas. i don't want to mess with a truss hence the mat antennas.

zero misses so far. 6 hs xc races using this setup with about 60-80 per race so my stats could be a little deceiving as there really hasn't been a real tight bell curve yet.

for a road race with a chip start i will use either foam spacer or 2 tags on bib therefore one tag will need to be on the back of the bib for sure.

i am finding more and more road race directors want disposable.

i also find it easier when prepping bibs and tags that its easier to put the tag on the bib as opposed to attaching a foot tag to the bib and then relying on the participant to take it off of the bib and attach correctly on the shoe..

although the arguments for using a UHF shoe tag are very valid (re-usable, antenna price and less bodies to get in the way) 75% of my other events --which are xc -- i use Ipico because of the fact that it is a solid performer for xc, not prone to body and moisture content and i can do live splits and and splits coring and the Ipico shoe tags are pretty idiot proof for athletes to put on.

my first race using the UHF system (used Agee software which wasn't the problem) with shoe tags on tyvek was a complete mess. i had about 15 misses per race with only about 60 kids in each.. (had to re-construct each race from my back up video).. hs kids and coaches can't follow directions and wore the tags tucked under the laces, in the shoe and everywhere else contrary to the simple instruction sheet and photo in the packets and verbal instructions as i handed it to them..

anyway, i needed something that was fairly idiot proof and determined that if i put the tags on the bib there wouldn't be too much to screw up.

so for my smaller xc meets --where i would have normally used pull tags i now just print my own bibs and put the disposable dogbones on them.. total coast is about 25 cents per kid --which is cheaper than if i purchased bibs with pull tags.. and less of a hassle having to rely on a parent to string the tags --which is a whole other story.

Many coaches now know that if we are using shoe tags they need to return and if using bib tags they get to keep..

Although, i do believe that Brian's new laminated shoe tag is a good option as well. and using a wet erase pen to number and then scan is a great idea .. re-sorting a bunch of shoe tags is not much fun..so the wet erase peen and re scanning for each event seems like a good idea.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Can you post picture(s) of clamps/method of attaching antennas to your truss?

[Tim Irvine]

    I have used a Dymo printer with thermo labels to place the dogbone on the front of the bib and put the label over it. I do this without having to use foam, plus I get to show them where the RFID chip is and tell them not to mess with it, but most importantly, I get my logo on the bib. BRANDING!!! This has worked for me well, but I am experimenting with a double chip on the back with foam. Not all races are good with a label on the front of the bib.

[rtspt.usa]

very nice! brilliant idea.

i too put the tag on the front.. only because i am hoping to achieve a little more separation of chip and body and not have to use foam..although sticking foam on the back isn't that big of a deal..i just get a little lazy : )

[mstompro]

That looks GREAT!  So, the dogbone inlay is beind the label?

[Tim Irvine]

Yes, it is behind the label and it fits perfectly with this label size. I buy my labels from a company called Labelvalue.com too. Good prices. I am a huge believer in putting the athletes name on the bib since a lot of times you will have one person picking up or registering for multiple people. This way they most of the time get the right bib on the right person. Not all the time, but one can hope.

[Crystal McCullough]

It seems a number of timers in this group have spent a lot of time and money to make the Agee system work with bib tags even at the risk of being less accurate than Brian’s recommended setup (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/agee-race-timing/3Yi7dW-vADA/F99iMLPl2ccJ). It also appears that the majority of those who mention that they use bib tags do so because their clients request or demand it. I’m getting curiouser and curiouser and have some business questions:

When you go to this trouble and/or expense of buying mat antennas and/or trusses and/or foam backers and so on, have you then raised your rates to cover the additional costs and time you have to put into it?

Do you keep the option of shoe/hip tags and charge a different rate for that?

If a client has requested bib tags, have they given you a reason? For example, is it to make it more convenient for runners, or is it because they think that’s what they are supposed to have? Something in between?

I’ve asked this before and do not recall getting a reply: If you attach chips to bibs, do you then consider them ‘disposable’ or do you request that the runners give them back to you?

Thanks!

Crystal

[rtspt.usa]

Crystal,

i am not sure brian says that they are less accurate but perhaps not as cost effective with the added cost of mat antennas or trusses etc.

i can definitely tell you that for me, timing xc races, using mat antennas has without a doubt been more reliable (100% reads) and accurate in terms of when the tags are being picked up.. which has literally been right over the mats on the finish line. 

so that being said, it is just easier for all involved with bib tags.. rd's don't need to staff a collection crew, you don't need to worry about missing tags and the re-organizing them, one less thing in a packet, one less thing for a participant to have to do, one less thing for them to mess up.

i do think it is wasteful and have tried to convince some rd's otherwise but they just want to make it easier and have no problem paying extra for the cost of the chip..

i have not raised my rates other than i charge a little extra for bib chip races as opposed to shoe chip races but the convenience on my end has been tremendous as well (hence my wife approving the purchase of a zebra printer to print and program the chips)

 

yes they are "disposable"..once they are stuck on there they are stuck.

[rtspt.usa]

actually i stand corrected on brian's views (i should have looked at the link first) ha, ha.

one thing to keep in mind, all of the other big rfid companies utilize either a mat or overhead antenna system with bib chips --and they have more than likely done alot of r and d on it.  i see now that ct has incorporated a side antenna into their system as well.. 

i can tell you as well that from my personal experience my reliability rates skyrocketed when i incorporated mat antennas [and coincidentally went with bib chips]

the bib chip was more of a personal and logistical choice for me as i also use ipico and needed a way to idiot proof the way that kids were putting on the flexible shoe chips (as opposed to the rigid ipico one's).. 

i also started to see the conveniences associated with the the bib chips as well.. then coincidentally a few rr rd's have asked to go that route too so it was something that i needed to nail down at some point as well.

[Crystal McCullough]

Hi, rtspt.usa,

Ugh, just wrote a reply and it didn't post! Maybe I sent it to you directly. In any case, thank you for your replies! 

I looked through your site and it seems you do a gadzillion track and cross country meets, and you've been doing this a long time. I'm pretty new, and haven't had the same demands you have had for services. I totally get why it would be preferential to have bibs for a xc meet rather than having to count on the race director to get instructions to the coaches, and the coaches getting instructions to the runners, and the runners actually following the instructions (I learned this the hard way). Let's just say I'm grateful for manual timing.

In the community races I've timed, I've used shoe tags, and had 100 percent read rates and 100 percent chip-return rates, with only one tag being torn off rather than taken off the lace like it's supposed to. I have never received a complaint about having to use shoe tags, and haven't received a request for them... yet.

Crystal

[reece.bell]

Not sure if everyone is aware but one of my reasons for using shoe tags is the NFHS. In New Jersey they decided to require all timers to be carded officials. So I had to take a class and a test (wish they could have just given me the test), but in the rule book, the National Federation of High Schools recommends bib tags or shoe tags. The rules require one on each shoe. They mention nothing about torso when it comes to RFID. When I am asked, I tell them that I do shoe tags because they won't have to worry and I refer them to the rules. I have a truss from my old Jaguar system and I might experiment with these bib tags, but I think that as professional timers we shouldn't have a problem explaining to race directors that we are the experts and they should relax and leave that part to us.

NFHS Rule 9 Section 3 Article 3

[rtspt.usa]

well actually it does say torso is to be used when using hand or picture based systems... (art 2)

art 3 says that either bib or 2 shoes tags shall be used. ..so not just shoe tags.

the problem with the rule is that it was written when either one or the other type of system was used and not what to do when both are used which is now the norm.

[Peak Performance Timing]

It also says that when RFID is used video can't be used to verify place, doesn't it? Which seems silly to me.

[rtspt.usa]

nope.. at least in rule 9-3 (page 68)

it says what to do if using one or the other but not when using both and there is no designation as to which one has more priority..

so as a timer if i am using both FAT and chips i can choose which i want to use and discuss ahead of time with meet management...and of course to be consistent through out the meet.

http://www.usatf.org/groups/officials/files/resources/rules/2013-NFHS-Rule-Book.pdf

[reece.bell]

True, but I was just referring to RFID. Not saying that either is better (bib or shoe) but just explaining how I dictate what is used as opposed to race directors. Many federations including the NCAA require video backup of finishes. I did a D3 meet last year and they requested it a showed me the rule. 

[Peak Performance Timing]

I don't like the rule either BUT what it says is "When transponders/chips are used, the official order of finish for the runners is that recorded by the transponder/chips." And that rules out any changes based on video evidence.

[Peak Performance Timing]

Let me add, that I don't adhere to that rule entirely :)

[blueridgetiming]

I was under the impression that any NCAA event was guided by the rule: any finish within 0.1 had to be looked at using FAT.

This may just be for national championships, but as a former coach who won a conference championship and then teo weeks later a regional championship each by 1 point, I would hate to win/lose without precision.

I spoke with Brian in regards to this issue and he did state that this system does adhere to the standard set by whatever agency it needed to be tested by.

Still, in my mind...timing community road races where 90% of participants run just to run is one thing, compared to championship events where more is on the line. It's very hard to argue a picture of the finish over a close chip finish.

[Peak Performance Timing]

I agree a picture wins and the high school rules should catch up with college rules.

[reece.bell]

I totally agree. Any big meet I time I also use Finishlynx and Identilynx at the finish line. It is more professional and I have gotten more jobs just because I am a fanatic about getting it right. I have only had a dispute once, but I will always have the video.

[Tim Irvine]

I was asked to post the type of printer I use and labels that I use to go over the dogbone chips on the front of the bibs, so here you go. I use a Dymo Labelwriter 450. I also have a Dymo Labelwriter 450 Turbo, but either of these will do the same thing. I started off using the labels from Office Depot for the printer, but they were more of a paper and could hold water and were pretty expensive. So I started using a company I found called Labelvalue.com I get a roll of Dymo Compatible Address Labels. They have the texture of like tyvek and they are thermo labels. The printer is rather so no running out of ink. I use Green and Orange for the RFID sticker. You can add you logo to the label and it looks great! I sometimes use the shorter LV-30336 (1x2-1/8) Label which will fit perfectly on a Road ID pull tab for anyone still pulling tabs. I have not pulled tabs in over 3 years, but people ask sometime why I put the labels on at all since I don't pull tabs and my response is: It serves multiple purposes actually. First and most importantly, you have the participant's name on the bib. Many times, one person will pick up for several people and it's a disaster waiting to happen. The names on the bibs help. Second, if I had to suddenly pull tabs for whatever reason, it's already in place. Third, I put my logo on everything. It tells them who to call if they need a timer, it tells them where to look for the results at. Branding is everything in my real job, and old habits die hard. I had considered putting the tag under the label on the pull tab and just have it there, but people like to remove it for no particular reason. I did a chip race in Jackson a few years ago and as soon as this kid got his bib, he began to attempt to pull the foam and chip from the back of the bib. I stopped him, but it was a close call. That was when I decided to go with a front chip using the bib itself as a barrier and putting the thermo label over it and pointing out RFID do not remove. That approach has made a difference. With all that said. I still did a 2 chip foam on back of the bib for the marathon Saturday. I did it because I had custom bibs. Even the label doesn't overcome that you have added something to the look of the bib. Best thing about the tag on front with label, takes up a lot less space.

[Scovel Racing]

@Tim - Thanks for sharing that, I was looking into doing something like that with colored thermal ribbon, it looks professional!

@Crystal - Chip Placement/Foam Backers Before I started timing, I was a racing almost weekly at large public races throughout the Portland Oregon/Vancouver Washington area (about 45 races total). I saw many different racing companies and maybe its just a geographic thing, but none of them used shoe tags... All of the companies used chip tags placed on the back of the bibs, right smack in the middle. About 10% of those races used foam backers (only the companies using mylaps).

So when I timed my first two XC meets, I naturally placed the chips on the back of the bibs with no foam backers. I had 3 misreads out of about 500 (it rained during the 2nd meet), maybe foam backers would have saved the three misreads? IDK, but I sorta think foam backers are a waist of money. 

Truss Cost - A simple DJ lighting truss is very cheap, around $125 for 10 foot truss with stands. If you want professional Marathon quality truss "12inch square trussing" its about $350 per 8 feet, Corners and Base sections are about $225 each.. (About $1950 for a 10x10 Truss). I don't have all the pieces yet, but once I do, I'll set it up and show you what it looks like with the readers. Its taken me about 3 months to purchase it and the final pieces are arriving next week!!! :D

[Peak Performance Timing]

I have looked at that same trussing and have wondered how hard it would be to but up? Aluminum, so not that heavy, but.....let us know how it goes.

[Scovel Racing]

Individually even the 8 foot section isn't too heavy, but once you start connecting pieces it gains weight quickly. I might be able to setup the sides and then place the top truss on by myself, I'll post an update next week.

[Tim Irvine]

I like this, but not sure the weight will work for me as I setup and tear down a lot by myself. The biggest thing that I am curious about is what keeps it from falling over?

[hubbard47630]

Here's a bigger truss. We have enough pieces to go 40' and 14' tall. Two-four man job depending on the set-up. We set up it with a 10 foot wide base and add 80lb sandbags when needed. For a small trail run series we do we set it up as a 10' x 10' and use tie down straps with ground anchors. The advantage of this truss over the tripod is the ability to attach coreplas or 13oz scrim to it. Bonus for us is we print our our scrim so we make extra for races that 1- rent this truss and 2- have us print vinyl for it.

[Scovel Racing]

Looks nice Hubbard

For support, I ordered large 30" x 30" base plates, but you could also build a bigger support by using a T joint and some smaller truss pieces (like hubbard did for his large truss), or if you get creative I've seen other races branch them off at a lower point to give them extra legs and act as as a banner display area.

[Todd Gould]

Chris,

The truss we use is overkill.  We have stage lighting truss that is really heavy and rated for holding hundreds of pounds.  We only do this because one of the guys owns a sound and lighting company.  I am interested in your truss setup.  Can you give me some specifics on your truss:  Cost, Vendor, Setup specifcs:  how hard/easy, weight....  Anything else.  We have to span 30+ feet also.  This looks exactly like what I have been looking for.

Thanks,

[hubbard47630]

Went down the same road with an oversized truss that took 4-6 people to set up. As shown and used for Crit racing it takes two people to set up. A third can be helpful but not needed. As shown it is 28 feet wide and 12 feet tall with a 10 foot base.

No section is bigger than 4'. When we break it down we leave two sections together so it 8' and very manageable. It weighs nothing. This is the original kit I bought- http://www.trusskits.com/Bozeman-p/ut10-arc4-251509.htm

Since then we've purchased another smaller one so we can mix the pieces. It's 10" x 10". They make a 12" box truss that I would have preferred just because it would give us an extra 2" on the sides to put coreplas on for sponsors. As is, we print 12-20" coreplas and have it hang over on the inside. With a 10" piece on the edge it looks great.

[hubbard47630]

This is the only 12" box truss kit they sell, I wish I would have bought it. http://www.trusskits.com/Grid-24-ft-by-13-ft-Double-box-column-Arch-p/ut12-arc4-grid.htm

[jonjkinzer]

I am able to set up and tear down my truss by myself. I have found that you set up the top first and just raise it as you go. It is 16' long and the bottom cross beam is 8' off the ground.

[reece.bell]

Trying to get an update of how you do you bib tags. Just had a long time client ask me for them. Thanks

[Run Roanoke]

I do vertical smartac dogbone with a foam spacer on top. Have had great results with them. I got the foam spacer from race result.

[reece.bell]

SR Aaron, wondering if your truss is right on the finish line or back from it a little? Are those antennas facing straight down? Doing some testing for my first bib tag race this Sunday

[Brian Agee]

Antennas pointing straight down mean that tags on a bib would pass by at the worst possible angle (knife edge to the antenna) - plus I'd be worried about forward leaning runners blocking the tag with their body.

Of course anyone can set things up however they would like, and I would encourage everyone to try different setups to see what works for them and what doesn't, I just wanted to post a quick word of caution in case you don't have a chance to test things out before your race on Sunday.