Can I use bib tags with this system?

[Brian Agee]

See answer below

[Brian Agee]

You can use any type of UHF tag (bib tags, triathlon tags, etc.) with the system. However we do not recommend bib tags for the following reasons:

• Read rates are not reliably 100%
• Bib tags basically break every rule when it comes to RFID. It places the tag on the thickest part of the body (so reading all tags in a tight group of finishers is harder), it places the tag very close to the skin (wind or sweat might have the bib 'glued' to the participant), it places the tag on (or close to) an often wet surface, and reading tags at a 45 degree angle is less than ideal. You also have cases where the bar of a baby stroller may be covering the tag or a husband might carry his wife across the finish line and both tags are covered up.

• "Disposable" tags are very expensive!
  
• Bib tags are very expensive - I'm sure other timing companies make a TON of money pushing "disposable" bib tags. If you think about it, they obviously want you to "dispose" of the tag so that you have to keep buying more. These are "passive" tags - which means they do not have a built in battery - which means they'll virtually last forever, so why not find a way to reuse them!

• Costly hardware required & liabilities
• Due to the angle at which the tag comes across you have to place your antennas in an arch or positioned fairly high and angled in towards the runners. This means you have the added expense of buying the arch (or taller tripods). You'll also have to worry about transporting, storing, and the added time to set up the arch at each event. Not to mention all of the bad things that could happen if the arch was blown over on a windy day.

• Harder to get accurate results
• With bib tags you have to angle the antennas in towards the incoming runners - which means that you have to be very careful on exactly where you place your antennas to make sure you don't pick people up too early or too late.

• Harder to get backup read points throughout the finish chute
• When you're antennas are facing straight down, you probably have to place all of your antennas so that the entire finish line is covered. So you only have one read point in the finish line.

Again, you're free to use any tags you want, and you'll get the same performance as you would with any other system that uses bib tags, but a much better solution is to place the tag on the side of the body - either on the hip or on the shoe and have your antennas reading directly across the finish line. This will reliably achieve 100% read rates. Here is why shoe/hip tags are so much better:

1. Tags come across at a perfect 0-degree angle to the antennas.
2. When a large group comes through you're more likely to pick everyone up because it's easier to read through a bunch of 'skinny runner legs' than through torsos. 
3. Antennas are placed so that they are reading directly across the finish line - so tag reads are more likely to get picked up right at the finish line.
4. Each antenna reads out at least 20 feet, so your finish line can be a lot wider than when you have to place all of your antennas overhead.
5. When you're reading across the finish line instead of straight down on the line you're able to place additional antennas through out the finish line to ensure everyone is picked up. A late read is better than no read! So if for some reason someone is missed right at the finish line, you have multiple chances to pick them up as they're slowing down in the finish line chute.
6. Tags are all-weather and reusable. They are easy to put on and take off. Instruct the participants to return the tags before leaving the event and you'll find that at least 95% of the tags will be returned (usually closer to 100%). I don't make them take them off in the finish line so that my finish line does not get congested.
7. The runner will not feel, hear, or notice the tags while running. They are extremely light and flow with the runner while running. Since the tag hangs freely off the side of the shoe (or the shorts) there is plenty of air space between it and the runner - which makes it easy for the antenna to see it. Additionally the tag is presented at many different angles as the runner crosses the finish line - which again makes it very easy for the antennas to see it.
8. "Disposable" Bib tags for other companies cost between $1 and $1.25 each. My reusable all-weather tags cost $0.75 each. Of course they save you a ton of money in the long run too.
9. When tags are being read from the side, the antennas do not have to be positioned very high off the ground. This means that you can have a low profile system that can easily fit in the trunk of a car. 

[Brian Agee]

First soliciting, and now this. These are your first two post?! If you were a customer or someone that had made meaningful contributions to the group prior to this I wouldn't block you, but I don't know who you are and it appears that's what needs to be done. I've now changed it so that the "Public" cannot post to the group. They must request to join the group first. I originaly had it set so that the "Public" could post to the group so that people that want to know more about the system can post without first having to join the group. 

Of course let me clear the water some on your arguments:

When I first started out I assumed I would use bib tags, so for the first couple of months that's all I tested the system with (Dogbones, Squiggles, Short Dipole, foam backed, doubled up, overhead antennas, side mounted antennas, etc.). I rarely did a test where there wasn't at least one tag missed with every bib-tag setup I tried. As I experimented over those two months it became obvious that when I placed the tag on the side of the body with side-mounted antennas the system never had a problem picking people up. This is not just a slight difference in performance and reliability, it was a night and day difference. Over the years I've acquired hundreds of customers, some of which had used another system (Jaguar, Chronotrack, Orbiter, etc.) and many of them have also confirmed that bib tags offer pretty good read rates as long as you understand the nuances of RFID and how antennas should be place. Even with proper placement of the antennas, most of the time there was a few athletes that were no picked up even though they were properly wearing their bibs. Since my system is a relatively unknown system, I've had to spend a TON of time answers phone calls and emails from every customer I have. So I know all of their stories well. So from my own personal tests and from the testimony of numerous customers I can say with confidence and a clean conscience that bib tags do not provide as high of a read rate as side-mounted tags and antennas. I completely understand the conveniences of having the tag on the bib, however more important than convenience is performance. So it doesn't bother me one bit if I need to spend a little extra effort to make sure athletes have their tags on correctly. Being able to sit back and enjoy the race without worrying much about a missed tag makes it well worth it.

Those that are well versed with how RFID works and have taken the time to experiment with hardware setup are able to get really good read rates with bib tag. Since you can use the same hardware used by the other companies, you will get the same performance using bib tags with my system as you would with any other system. However it's important to remember that unlike other systems I do not require my customers to go through any kind of training course so that they can learn all about the nuances of RFID. Additionally, since my system is extremely affordable there are a lot of people getting into chip timing that would have not been able to otherwise - some of which are not professional timers - they just need a system for their yearly event(s) or for a small number of events their organization puts on. There is a lot of small 'mom and pop' timers that use my system and if these individuals that don't fully understand the behavior of RFID in different environments then they are at a much higher risk of having a disaster unfold when people start crossing the finish line. For most of my customers, this is the first RFID timing system they've ever used and they know very little about how RFID really works (the importance of angle, keeping the tag away from the body, etc.), so it's in my best interest and their best interest to use the most reliable setup possible - shoe/hip tags with side-mounted antennas. Again, keeping my support level low is critical, and I'm confident that if more people were persuaded to use bib tags (especially those with a single Short Dipole tag on them) then I'd start getting reports of less than ideal read rates and it would end up taking a lot of my time.

My timing crews and I probably timed close to 100 races this year and quiet a few last year using shoe tags. We probably had less than 10 races were we had a missed tag. Of course I have countless emails from people that use my recommended setup and reported back that they didn't have a single missed tag. So my recommendation on which tag performs better is not just 'my opinion'.

Some of your other points: 

"We can probably all agree the shoe tag has less environmental interference ...  'read rate' is more than just 1 factor" - That's the point! Bib tags break just about all of the rules with RFID in addition to the other concerns (user error, hardware setup) that could cause poor read rates with any RFID setup. Since there are many factors that can cause poor read rates - why would someone risk adding on one of these factors if you didn't have to. I understand that there is a few race directors demand bib tags, and in those cases (if you want the job) you'll have to make due with bib tags. However I'm confident that the majority of race directors don't care what type of tag you use, they just want you to provide accurate results at a low cost. So when I tell the race director that I do not charge them (or the participants) for any lost or damaged tags they are glad to hear I'm using these inexpensive tags. With bib tags you have to charge (or take the hit) for every tag that is used. This extra charge might mean the difference between you getting the timing job or your competitor getting it.

Husband carrying the wife:

I've had two different customers tell me they had a miss read because of this. I've had others say that they had a miss because the tag was sandwiched between the bar of a baby stroller and the participants stomach. When participants in a cold/rainy event would walk across the finish line with their arms crossed (covering the tag) it would often miss. Obviously that's no common, but my point with that is that bib tags aren't necessarily more fool proof than shoe/hip tags. How many times have we timed a race and found that the athlete put their bib on the back of their shirt, back of their shorts, or on their jacket and then they tied the jacket around their waist during the race?

I've been running, timing, and directing races since 1997. I ran track and XC in college and I've ran (and won) hundreds of road races (the largest of which was the Gibson Guitar 5K in Memphis Tennessee). Many people in this users group have ran races longer than I have. So most of us have worn every type of tag on the market. I've NEVER shown up at a race and been disappointed that they asked me to put something on my shoe. You just do whatever they tell you and go run your race.

Cost of the tags:

Even if someone ordered everything in bulk (tags, foam, etc.) the long term financial cost to you (or your race directors) is a lot higher than tags that you can reuse multiple times. Of course if you can buy pre-numbered and pre-assembled tags you'll probably save time, but the cost of those tags would be a lot higher. If you assembled them yourself I'm not convinced that the assembly time wouldn't be much higher than the time it takes to program two of my laminated tags and attach them to a bib. 

As I said before, with bib tags somebody has to pay for them at every race you time. If you get out-bid for a job (or take less profit to out bid someone else) because you're base timing fee is higher then those tags just became very expensive. With all of the races we time, and with the feedback I get from my customers you can expect to get 98%+ of your tags back. As for the time it takes to "collecting, sorting [there is no sorting], re-encoding, the extra distribution costs [what is that? no matter what tag you use you have to distribute them, this is not 'extra' with my tags], replacing lost tags, etc." - again I'm not convinced it's really more time or effort than what you'd have to do if you made your own bib tags every time.  After we time a race we bring all of the tags back in a large tub. We grab a stack of bibs and start blindly attaching two tags to each of them. We then go through and program the tags and we're done. It's not hard.  If you used a wet-erase marker to write the bib number on the tag then of course you will use a damp cloth to wipe that number off and write the new number on, but most of the time we don't bother doing that.

Costly hardware required & liabilities:

You said it's not true, but then you go on to list all of the extra stuff you can buy to help lessen the liability of your arch blowing over. The point is that if you use bib tags you more than likely have to buy extra equipment (arch, mat antennas, etc.). The more equipment you buy, the less likely you can fit everything in your car (like I do) so then you have to buy a trailer if you don't have one just to carry your arch or your mat equipment. There is also the additional setup time needed for the arch. I don't use an arch and on race day I already have to get up VERY early (often on almost no sleep the night before) to get everything set up and ready before registration opens up. Saving any amount of time you can on race morning is important to most people (even if all that means is a little extra sleep the night before).

As for more accurate:

I hope some of the other users I've talked to that have tired ONLY mat antennas will chime in. Using a mat antenna with a bib tag is a horrible idea - the tag comes across at the worst angle possible (90 degrees) so the customers I've talked to that have tried this got around 60% read rates. So of course you can place panel antennas overhead  or on the side to help offset this with those antennas facing the runners coming in (otherwise they too would be at 90 degrees to the tag), but then you have to position them so that you're not picking people up too late or too early. When you have the antennas facing the runners coming in and reading the tag at a less than ideal angle it's harder to define a hard finish line. On the other hand, if you place your antennas on the side and don't make the finish line unnecessarily wide it's easier to know exactly where the tag will get picked up.

Harder to get backup read points throughout the finish chute

If you're having to purchase additional mats (which are very expensive) isn't that harder?

I don't see the industry moving to any solution other than bib tags:

Ipico isn't hurting for business - many companies use shoe tags and from what I can tell (at least with the small to medium size races my customers go after) the race director typically doesn't care what type you use. I truly believe that the reason why the large companies push bib tags is because that is where they make the most money. Passive RFID doesn't use any batteries, they can virtually last forever, is it possible that the large companies want you to throw those tags away after a single use?

On Wednesday, December 3, 2014 1:32:09 PM UTC-6, smbas...@gmail.com wrote:

I think you make a few generalizations that might not be 100% accurate.

Read rates are not reliably 100%

Correct. No system or tag is 100% reliable (unless of course you believe the good folks at Innovative/Jaquar... I believe their system reads 105%).  Bib tags have some challenges but read rates are a function of several factors... environmental, amount of hardware, user errors, etc.  Is the error rate higher for Chronotrack's D-tag (shoe) or Bib tag?  We can probably all agree the shoe tag has less environmental interference (tag is in free space, etc) but when you factor in the user error with participants actually following directions then the B-tag will have a higher success rate.   ...so my point is "read rate" is more than just 1 factor.  And are we really going to factor in "husband might carry his wife across the finish line and both tags are covered up."   I can live with 100% miss rate for all husbands carrying wives across the finish line if all else performs flawlessly.

"Disposable" tags are very expensive!

Tags are not expensive.  Tags cost about $.14 per tag.  Some people will use 2 unfoamed tags for a cost under $.30 per bib.  Foam can be bought in bulk for $.01-.02 per tag... so you could have a foam backed tag for $.15,  Even with re-useable tags there are costs.  The cost associated with collecting, sorting, re-encoding, the extra distribution costs, replacing lost tags, etc.  I timed for several years using IPICO tags and I know my life is very much improved with the disposable tags vs re-useable tags when I factor in all the extra time spent managing tag inventory.

We buy foam backed tags for $.36/tag.  I certainly could buy wet inlays and print/encode and place foam on the tags myself and save $.15-.20 but personally I want to touch a bib as few times as possible so I will pay for "stick it and forget it" tags.

Costly hardware required & liabilities

Not 100% true. You could build your own ground based system.  Similar to CT you could use Impinj antennas and ramps.  There are also ground based mats from Times-7 (although they are expensive) but the total cost of these systems is still not prohibitive for even 15-20 races/year timers.

Harder to get accurate results

I'm not exactly sure how this is different for bib tags vs hip or shoe tag designs.  We always strive to get an narrow/definitive "finish line" with our RFID field if we are using mats, side antennas or overhead antennas. 

Harder to get backup read points throughout the finish chute

This certainly could be solved with ground based mats or I know from personal experience we have used side mounted antennas as backups in the chute points across from each other (not forward facing) and have had very good success picking up any misses from primary line.

Personally I would LOVE to NOT use bib tags and go back to a shoe tag type solution but that is not what the market wants.  Bib tags offer many advantages for participants and volunteers and personally I don't see the industry moving to any solution other than bib tags.

[hubbard47630]

Brian,

I have typed at least ten replies to the post but never hit enter because I didn't feel it was my place. That said, thank you for your reply. As I said in the now deleted post, I appreciate the fact that this is not a solicitation list. 

I have timed with other equipment and your system is, simply put- AMAZING. I do use bib tags a lot and have had great success with them, but at a higher cost than many others using the system. We already had overhead arches and trusses so it wan't an added expense for us that others would have to buy. We've tested various chips (and now antennas) and found what works for us. The best part of your system is the flexibility of it. We've copied the laminated bike chips that Todd uses and will soon start testing those. Actually on second thought, you are the best part of the system. You've rolled out so many little changes and improvements based on the comments right here. I doubt any other timing system can or has done that. 

Thanks

[Alan Bingham]

I'd like to comment that I purchased the system in July, I've only timed a few races with it, and as far as I've been able to tell, I've had 100% read rates, I know our first time out, that we would notice some people going over the line, and see maybe 3 of a 4 person group, when we double checked why 1 person was missed, we found out that they had finished earlier and then went back our around the finish line chute and ran in a loved one, and crossed for a 2nd time...thus the system had already recorded their time and skipped them, our hand manual timer clicked the time again, and had an extra time. I've yet to add 2 chips per runner, which I imagine would increase our read rate from 99.999% to well over 100% I understand that Brian has thousands of chips lying around, I only bought 1000 with my first order, but maybe as time goes on, I'll add a few more thousand and then double up on the chips. The software is great and I've been thinking of using it in manual mode as well for smaller events. To me cross country events are hard because of the amount of people who want to come around the finish area with chips on. I bought a FX9500 and that thing works great, I have an 8 port reader and the past 2 races I timed, I only used 2 antennas on it. I see no reason to add the other 2.

[Alan Bingham]

I purchased the laminated shoe/hip chips, the first race I timed, they wore them on their shoe, then I did an XC meet, and they were on their hip, the past race I did, I had them on the hip again, but some of the athletes put them on their shoe, I even saw one of them tucked into the laces, but it still got read...whew that was good.

Here's the turkey trot we timed.

They finished on the track.

http://youtu.be/vjxI6_FlyUo

If you look closely you can see the antennas and the chips, and why I moved from shoes to hips. Notice also they are wearing the bibs. no chips on the bibs.

Now I need to work on focus on that camera.

[Tim Irvine]

I agree with what you said Brian and the decision to block out people who aren't customers. Although I prefer bib tags for my application for my reasons, I recognize that the shoe tag is the best way to apply your technology. Like Hubbard, I wrote several replies and couldn't quite express what I wanted to say completely. You are the expert on your software and I will always defer to you on the best method. I may not follow your suggestions, but I will always want to hear them. Keep up the great job!

[Run Roanoke]

Brian:

Thanks for not allowing solicitation in the list.  Been using your system since summer of 2013 and been very pleased.  One question my crew and I have been wondering is about the FX9500, what is the range it will read tags?  I know it push's more power, but what is the distance.  As far a bibs tags and other system.  I ran a Thanksgiving race over the weekend with around 3,000 runners.  The very expensive timing program missed several tags including first 2 female runners.  To say this caused an uproar would be an understatement.  The chips didn't read at the finish because they didn't read at the start, unlike your software which will give the runner a gun time even if they didn't get the start time.  I personally am very cautious about putting chips on bibs.  I find that the missed read rates chips on the shoes are dependent on factors out of my control (correct placement, weather, sometimes even wearing them).  But with a proper back-up system, we can fix the 1% to 2% of missed tags.   Thanks for all you input and help. 

[howardrhyne]

Scott is the owner of http://onthemarksports.com/

I think he was just trying to lend insight into what he's seen over the
years.  He is very experienced and I think he was just trying to share his
viewpoint.

I buy my tags from ART and just follow the group to gain any knowledge I
can about hardware and the setups folks use.  I don't time for profit and
only time our local high school cross country meets.  I don't use the
software because I just need to have the time stamps collected in a manner
that allows me to import them into RaceTab.  I'm also a software developer
and have written my own little process to handle that piece.  What Brian
has done with the software is very time consuming, hats off to him for all
his hard work.

Howard Rhyne
Reality Group LLC

[chowatt]

I welcome all opinion but this blatant attempt to hijack a thread for person gain is not OK with me.  The thread is 'can I use bib tags with this system'.  Question was asked and answered.  Turning it into a discussion about bib tags versus shoe tags is NOT OK.

Thanks Brian for taking decisive action.