[C320-list] Hi all - question about water in the bilge

[David Wellerstein]

Hi there,

I am not sure if this is going out and to whom, but I thought I would give it a go. I am a member of the 320 association.

We recently purchased a ’94 C320, hull number 118, and after a lot of updating to the Perkins diesel, batteries and many other things, we are ready to sail here in the SF Bay!

The current annoying issue is water in the bilge that seems to be coming from the area under the sole immediately behind the section of the bilge with the pump. I’ve removed the sole (the dining table included) piece that reveals that section of the bilge. I can post a picture but there’s a hole that leads to the pump area. The water seems to be seawater but I can not figure where it’s coming from. We recently replaced the dripless and had all the thru-hulls checked at a recent haul out.

I’ve vacuumed out all the water but it returns.

If this is the right place to send questions, I’m sure I will have others. We are really excited to get going and love the boat so far.

Thank you!

—David

David Wellerstein | dwel...@mac.com | 925.301.6581 (m)

[Timothy Woods]

You're in the right place. I get a little sea water from my dripless when I
shift into reverse. I have the pressure set just tight enough not to leak.

Tim #375

[Christian]

If salt water, and its coming from the section behind the bilge pump, I
would suspect any component of your raw water cooling system. Is the water
more noticeable when engine running? Check if your raw water pump is
leaking, crack in hose on any component of your raw water system (thru hull
to pump, pump to heat exchanger, and the exhaust elbow to your aqua
muffler, and around the perimeter of your aqua muffler). Are you seeing
any water in the pan beneath the engine? Another thing to check is your
raw water vent loop anti siphon. On a Perkins '94, the vent loop is
usually attached to the engine compartment fiberglass just port of the heat
exchange unit. Your duck bill might have gone bad, and spraying water
while engine is running (this is an especially bad mounting place imho for
salt water sailing, as the this is near some electrical wiring, hastening
corrosion if spraying salt water).
-Christian Caperton
1994 C320 #138 "Canuck" Monroe Harbor, Chicago, IL

[David Wellerstein]

This is great, thank you for that.

I had a TON of work done to the engine including a new salt water pump, new hoses, a new exhaust elbow, +new rocker arm assembly and more. Finding all the parts was difficult. I really wanted to make sure it was in as good shape as possible and even though it only had 500 hours on it, it needed a lot of stuff.

Funny thing is, there is no water under the engine or under the packing gland/shaft. I’ll run the engine in the slip and check around though.

This is our first sailboat in over 20 years and we are very rusty so please pardon the incorrect verbiage/terminology.

I really appreciate the feedback!! Thank you!! It’s good to know I’m not alone. :)

—David

David Wellerstein | dwel...@mac.com | 925.301.6581 (m)

[Dave Hupe]

I agreed with Christian. I had the same experiences/issues with my '94 boat.  My sea water pump needed to be rebuilt because it leaked around the seal.  Drips were easily evident when I had the front engine panel open and the engine was running. Also, the duckbill valve on the anti-siphon loop mounted on the port side of the engine compartment leaked a lot of water initially. 
I don't have a dripless (is that truly what you have?).  However, I use Gore GFO packing that leaks very little when running and doesn't leak at all while at rest.  I place a small/medium sponge under the shaft packing nut area which soaks up any small amount of water when running and then I squeeze out the sponge. So, no water transfers to the bilge under the engine pan or gets into the structural grid.  If water gets into the structural grid, it would wind up showing in/seeing from that aft hole that you see in the bilge compartment. 
By the way David, welcome to the "older hulls C320 group". 
Dave Hupe
1994 C320 (#32)
Holland, MI

[Dave Hupe]

David-
Check out this source for parts in England Perkins Perama M30 parts (parts4engines.com)
I used them several times for some important engine parts.  Service, price, shipping were all great (even beating US sources). 
They are great to email and get quick concise answers. 
Dave Hupe
#32

[nibj]

Hi
We have a Perkins powered 320 as well. In our bilge there are two hoses that enter from the aft compartment (the area under the sole just behind the section of the bilge with the pump):

1) a hose for the manual bilge pump
2) a hose for the drain from the cool box in the galley

I think the holes between the aft compartment and the bilge need to be filled (in our case by caulking around the relevant hoses) so that water from the bilge doesn’t get into the aft compartment and under the shower etc. I think aft compartment should be entirely dry since there is no way to pump water out easily (except using a vacuum).

When we first purchased the boat, the compartment behind the bilge would fill with rain water because of a leaking access plate for the emergency steering in the cockpit floor aft of the steering pedestal. This can be replaced without difficulty. We have also had the aft compartment fill up due to a leak from the fresh water system (in our case the connection of the cold water to the galley sink faucet), and due to forgetting to close the drain for the hot water heater. Another source I have read about is leaks from the aft outside shower connections.

I understand these sources won’t result in salt water in the aft compartment, so perhaps no help to you.

Good luck.
Peter
#226

[Ken McCrimmon]

Welcome to the group. This is a great place to get information. Anything you experience, somebody has dealt with it before, usually multiple people
________________________________
From: C320-list <c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com> on behalf of David Wellerstein <dwel...@mac.com>
Sent: January 13, 2022 3:43 PM
To: c320...@lists.catalina320.com <c320...@lists.catalina320.com>
Subject: [C320-list] Hi all - question about water in the bilge

[Christian]

"This is our first sailboat in over 20 years and we are very rusty so
please pardon the incorrect verbiage/terminology."

Welcome back to the wonderful (and sometimes unwonderful) world of owning a
sailboat. The 320 was our first boat, this next season will be our 6th
season of owning, and we love ours more every year. Hope you enjoy yours
as much as we love ours.

My hull is only 20 builds later than yours, so chances are we have very
similar everything on our models.

On my engine tray, some of the caulking around the pass thrus to the bilge
have rotted, so I have gotten water from the engine compartment to the area
you described behind the bilge, with no water in the tray, when she's been
rocking on the water. It's a real PITA vacuuming out that water there too!

For all my perkins parts, I have found everything I have needed from
TransAtlantic Diesel (https://www.tadiesels.com/) as well as had excellent
customer service from them.

TBH, even though parts can be a bit harder to find at times, that Perkins
engine is a work horse, and my favorite of the engines Catalina used on the
320s. Mine had about 250 hours on her when we bought, and the only thing
I've had to replace since owning is the fresh water thermostat and the
fresh water pump (previous owner let old impeller fins collect at the raw
water heater exhchange, blockinging flow, I didn't know this, and on our
maiden owning sail across lake Michigan on delivery over heated the engine
and melted the wax in the thermostat). They are great diesel engines, and
you should have many happy hours out of yours.

I'm not a boat expert in any fashion, but I've learned the basics around my
320, and if I can help in any way, don't hesitate since we have such
similar manufacturer numbers, likely very similar builds.

-Christian Caperton
1994 C320 #138 "Canuck" Monroe Harbor, Chicago, IL

[Mark Hood]

With an older Catalina 320 it could be many things. Check the seacocks, the
seals could of deteriorated and might need to be replaced or just tighten
the four screws, they might be loose. Check hoses for cracks or possibly
just loose hose clamps. We broke the handle on a seacock this summer and
water poured in requiring a short haul to fix. Mark Hood


On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 4:42 PM Ken McCrimmon <kenmcc...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[David Wellerstein]

Ha yes, we broke a Forespar seacock under the galley sink one night as we were leaving the boat. I’ve never had water come onto a boat like that. After freaking out a bit and getting the handle back in enough to close the valve about 90%, we had a diver come out to plug it up until we could haul and replace with a new (non-plastic) one. Big difference. Had several other things done at the same time including the head system. The thru hulls/seacocks were all checked and I can find no evidence of water intrusion. But I’ll keep checking.

I do have two open holes between the bilge pump area and the space right behind it (under the ladder). That seems to be where the water comes in. We haven’t been out in a blow yet so haven’t had her heeled over well so I’m not sure what that will bring!

I’ll keep checking (and sailing!).

Thank you all so much for your responses. It makes us feel much less alone out there!! :)

—David

[Jeff Hare]

Hi David,

A former owner (maybe the original owner?) of your boat #118 was Jerry Mickelson. He was a fairly active C320 association member and commented occasionally about projects he was doing to the boat/problems he was having. We met him out at the annual regatta in Coronado (I think) hosted by Dick Walker, seems like a hundred years ago. LOL!

If you search the discussion list for his last name, you might see some notes about things he had issues with on your boat. Not sure. There may have been a previous or more recent owner but they didn't seem to be active in the association, not positive about that either.

Note: https://groups.google.com/g/c320-list (Currently you can only search and browse these discussions as they are just a copy of what you see on the email list but we're about to change that!)

One thing to note is that your hull has what we refer to as the "shallow bilge". Early hulls had a different grid liner with a shallower bilge and needed more attention to keep the boat dry.

Jerry almost certainly made the drainage modification to the grid liner that Catalina recommended way back then. If not, it's worth investigating. I think (not sure) that the issue was that water could collect in areas of the grid that wouldn't naturally drain back easily into the bilge. If any of those holes got clogged over the years, then maybe this could account for some apparent water weeping back into the bilge over time. That change documentation is on the https://c320.org website. https://c320.org/filemgmt/visit.php?lid=63 (Search for "Grid Liner" in case this link no longer works).

Cheers!

Jeff Hare
Former Webmaster 2003-2021
Formerly 2001 C320 #809
Currently 2011 C355 #17 (Thanks Jon!!)

[Troy Dunn]

David-

Welcome aboard! You are definitely in the right place and congratulations
on buying a great sailboat!

Since you have an early model I’m a bit hazy on how the fridge drains on
your hull, but on hull #514 the fridge does drain to the area behind the
bilge. If the water is freshwater then that’s the most likely suspect for
sure. You can put a gallon down the fridge and see what happens if you
aren’t sure. Some hulls have a Y valve in the head that hooks the fridge
up to the shower sump.

You asked who these emails go out to. The answer is anyone who is
subscribed to the mailing list and anyone who looks on the association
webpage or google group. This is not a private forum and not restricted
in any way I’m aware of. Jeff H correct me if that has changed.

Also be sure to use the search function in groups, works very well and you
will get to know various things about your model (earlier hull, Perkins
engine, shallow bilge) that you want to keep an eye on.

Regards-

Troy Dunn
Hull #514
Wonky Dog

[Mark Calisti]

Back in 2020, we had a mysterious salt water leak. We had water under the sole, aft of the bilge. Engine area was completely dry. Turns out we had a small breach in the hull just forward of the straight shaft. As I understood from the marina, apparently some (all?) 320s were built with the option for a sail drive. Over time, that area can weaken and cause a breach. What was odd is that the leak would come an go and generally start coming in when underway. Marina thought it was jellyfish getting in there at the dock sealing the small gap which then exited or forced out when underway. This went on for a few weeks, before it started to get dangerously worse (had to start using the manual bilge pump to avoid the pump continuously running), and we hauled out. Unfortunately, no insurance coverage as the adjuster labeled it wear and tear.

Mark Calisti
Wayward 749
Solomons, MD

> On Jan 13, 2022, at 10:50 PM, Troy Dunn <troutw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> David-

[David Wellerstein]

Thanks for that tip Mark. Is the only way to check that to do a haul out? I seem to be vacuuming less water so it could be a matter of water making its way to the bilge. We are going out for a sail today so we’ll see what we wind up with this evening. I certainly don’t have that much water that the pump is running furiously.

Also, there is a hole between the rearmost area behind the bilge and the bilge that was previously covered with duct tape. I wonder if that’s one of the holes put in by Jerry at the recommendation of Catalina? Shouldn’t it have a plug (one of those expandable ones) in it? Taking up the sole to get to that rearmost section is a pain in the rear as you have to remove the dining table. My vacuum nozzle does not fit through the hole so I might have to make it bigger. Or cut the sole so that the rearmost area is more accessible.

I guess the first thing to do is to see if it’s a leak, historical water or something else entirely.+

Again, thank you all for your suggestions. It’s such a comfort to know you’re out there!

David
Dream Catcher #118

[Mark Calisti]

Or a diver. We only hauled after we thought we had ruled out all other possibilities and the flow coming in at the tail end created a cause for concern. Doesn’t seem like you are there yet and hopefully you won’t get there. I’ll send you a picture of our issue.

> On Jan 15, 2022, at 10:20 AM, David Wellerstein <dwel...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for that tip Mark. Is the only way to check that to do a haul out? I seem to be vacuuming less water so it could be a matter of water making its way to the bilge. We are going out for a sail today so we’ll see what we wind up with this evening. I certainly don’t have that much water that the pump is running furiously.

[pat reynolds]

David  My 1995 320 has two holes in the area you mentioned.  One for the sump pump and the other for the fridge drain, ,Possibly your fridge drains elsewhere and this hole was plugged.  In order to get a vac hose in the hole you mentioned I cut the board where the table rests at the narrow point between the settee and the head

[Bob Borelli]

On my hull no. 209.
The 'cold box' drains to the bilge pan or 'upper bilge', drain opening in on the athwart ship fiberglass frame.
Also there is an opening for the tube that runs under the diesel pan, from the frame just forward of the propellor shafts packing gland. The tube runs forward to aft. Carries water drip from the packing gland forward to the bilge pan or 'upper bilge'.
And on my boat it also drains into the bilge under the pan, the 'lower bilge'.
I slip a hand pump down through a hole I cut into the plywood base of the galley drawer cabinet and slip the pump along side the holding tank.
I used food colored water, blue & red poured into the cold box and into the area below the packing gland to determine where the water drains to. And to answer why I have water collecting in the lower bilge.

Bob Borelli C320 no. 209 Sassafras River, MD

________________________________
From: C320-list <c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com> on behalf of pat reynolds <lora...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2022 11:52 AM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com <C320...@Catalina320.com>

Subject: Re: [C320-list] Hi all - question about water in the bilge

[Jeff Smith]

David,

Since your hull # is close to mine (#121), you might also consider your hot water heater. I have had problems with leaking water that I thought was either: a. The raw water pump, b. A leaking through-hull, or c. One of my water lines/water tanks. It was actually d., my hot water heater was rusted and leaking water. I finally figured it out when I left my water system pump (to faucets, etc.) on and it kept activating while all faucets were closed. Suspecting the hot water heater, I removed the galley cabinet (easy to do) and watched the water leak from the hot water heater (it was rusted at the seam). I chose to simply remove the hot water heater and not replace it.

So, if you try the other usual suspects (emergency tiller cover, propane tank locker, and all of the other aforementioned areas) and you still have a leak, leave your water system pump on and listen to see if it is activating, seemingly for no reason. It might be an indicator that your hot water heater is the culprit.

Good luck,

Jeff
S/V Sailmates, #121

[Jeff Hare]

I've never seen or heard of a Saildrive on a C320. It was never an option on this boat for sure. I remember Gerry specifically making an offhand comment about them back at an old factory tour where he said he will not use Saildrives from anyone in his designs. Too many opportunities to fail in a bad way. He didn't elaborate, or I don't recall a reason anyway.

If you do see any Catalina with a saildrive it must have been built prior to 1982 or a very old boat repowered with an OMC aftermarket unit? But I don't know for sure.

Pretty sure it's just not a factory thing on any of the Gerry Douglas designs since '82 though.

-Jeff Hare

-----Original Message-----
From: C320-list <c320-lis...@lists.catalina320.com> On Behalf Of David Wellerstein
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2022 10:20 AM
To: C320...@Catalina320.com
Subject: Re: [C320-list] Hi all - question about water in the bilge

[John Frost]

We have had 3 Catalinas since 1985 (a 25, 270 and 320) and have followed the brand closely. Never heard of a sail drive on one

John
2009 C320MKII
Hull #1118
Lake Guntersville, AL

[Jack Brennan]

Saildrives. Ugh. I wouldn’t own one at any price.

The aluminum outdrives start corroding if a chip of paint flakes off. An uncheckable rubber seal is the only thing between you and sinking, and it costs many thousands to replace the seal every five years or so. On some models, it’s difficult to change the transmission fluid.

A friend of mine who owned a big cat wrapped a stray halyard around one of his saildrives. Many thousands of dollars later, he got the boat back from the yard. When I caught a crab trap line a few years ago, it cost me exactly zero to remedy the problem.

I think their use is similar to the V-drive installations C&C, Pearson and some other manufacturers used to deploy. You know, where the diesel is installed backwards so that you have to be an acrobat to change the oil or a saltwater impeller.

They make it easy for the boat designers and builders, but are hell on the people who actually own the boats. I’m glad Catalina recognized that.

Jack Brennan
Sonas, 1998 Catalina 320
Tierra Verde, Fl.




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