Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

[Chambi Chachage]

Gloria Emeagwali et al., do you agree with Lawrence Mbogoni below?

---

From: "'Mbogoni, Lawrence' mbog...@wpunj.edu [Wanazuoni]" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com>
To: "Wana...@yahoogroups.com" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 12:29 AM
Subject: RE: [Wanazuoni] Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

 

Wanazuoni,

I am joining this dialogue rather late. But as a historian of Africa I feel bound to answer Mr. Makakala’s concerns about the relationship of ancient Egypt/Nubia and the rest of Africa. Makakala begins with the view that:  “the current North Africa has been shaped mainly by forces which are foreign to the continent. Hence, the fact that the North has produced many scholars for centuries has more to do with the cultures that influenced it rather than [the rest of] Africa.” The observation is true to a certain extent. For centuries ancient Egypt was a part of the Mediterranean world and Egypt influenced at the same time it was itself influenced parts of this region especially what is today Israel/Palestine and Greece. Ancient Egypt was an imperial power whose influence extended to the southern fringes of Assyria. Some evidence even suggests that one of the pharaohs conquered and briefly ruled ancient Greece. However, ancient Egypt’s imperial endeavors beyond Nubia were thwarted partly by geographical factors and partly by resistance especially along the Red Sea toward Puntland (northern Somalia). Evidently, had ancient Egypt’s imperial endeavors succeeded its influence would have been far afield south of Nubia. That said, as part of the Mediterranean world Egypt learnt as it taught neighboring peoples many things. Alexandria was for centuries a center of learning in the region that attracted especially ancient Greek scholars. Herodotus, reputed to be the father of history, deemed it necessary to visit Egypt and left us a very interesting account of his experience of the people and their achievements. In short, scholarly achievements in Egypt and North Africa were/are not just the result of influences from other cultures but are also indigenous to ancient Egypt.

 

Makakala wonders how ancient Egypt and Nubia could have developed so far ahead while none of that development did not leak to the rest of the continent. My response is had ancient Egypt’s imperial endeavors southward succeeded its influences would have extended beyond Nubia. But even where Egyptian imperialism was extended, such as in the Levant, there is very little in evidence about Egyptian achievements. There are no pyramids in Lebanon, Israel or Jordan although these areas were once subject to Egyptian imperialism. As for evidence of permanent buildings from anywhere else in Africa comparable to Egypt’s there is none except the stone citadels of ancient Zimbabwe. But by permanent buildings I believe Makakala is referring to the Egyptian pyramids. However, most Egyptians built and resided in mud structures. The three pyramids we see today were presumably funerary structures although most if not all pharaohs were buried in underground tombs (Pharaoh Cheops, the builder of the biggest of the threes was not even buried in it).

 

Furthermore, Makakala queries why Africa is considered the exception when it comes to diversity characteristic of Europe and Asia. I wonder who is guilty of his accusation since historians of Africa have highlighted its diversity in peoples, cultures, languages, climates, forms of worship, lifestyles, etc. for quite a while now. Any introductory text about Africa begins with its geographical, cultural, linguistic, and ethnic/racial diversities (Cf. textbooks by Robert July; Robert Collins). No historian worth the name would insist Africa to be uniform.

 

Moreover, I find it interesting that Makakala equates sedentary life with permanent buildings. Rather, it is the rise of agriculture that was the genesis of permanent human settlements not just in Africa but elsewhere in the world. Tending to crops required people to stay put in one place unlike tending to livestock, hence the difference between agricultural and pastoralist societies. Be that as it may, urbanization was not only unique to ancient Egypt on the continent. For an historical account of the process of urbanization in Africa south of the Sahara Makakala can refer to Catherine Vidrovitch’s book entitled *Urbanization in Africa.*

Finally, it is puzzling how Makakala equates scripts (i.e. the written word) with sharing of knowledge, skills and innovations and hence development. The privileging of the written word and hence written records as the only sources of history was conclusively debunked by Jan Vansina in his book entitled *The Oral Tradion.* That said, if having a written language is that important, how does one explain the lack of development and political vulnerability of Arabs and the Chinese who, like the Africans, were easily conquered by Europeans despite having written languages of their own?

 

Kila la kheri.

 

Mbogoni

__,_._,__

[awori]

Not being a historian of any kind---I would not hazard to give a factual response to the views below. I however would like to raise issues that the author and others could consider. When you refer to ancient Egypt---what exactly do you mean? What was ancient ancient Nubia---what distinguishes ancient Nubia from the so called ancient Egypt?  Finally according to archaeological and scientific findings---what was the progression of the Nubia/Egyptian civilizations---was it from the source of the Nile--Northwards or the other way round? Answers to these questions might (probably) help answer some of the quetion.  

Awori   

[Mario Fenyo]

according to Davidson and some others, the relationship was dialectical, from Nubia to Kemet, from Kemet to Nubia.

Respectfully,  Mario Fenyo

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of awori [awori....@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 8:58 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series
Cc: cham...@yahoo.com
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

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[kenneth harrow]

there are many other questions. are they historical? ideological? when gloria asserts that egyptians were black africans, what does that mean? where on the line that carries people across the sahara does black fade into white? where is the deciding line? are we to measure noses again? i've seen berber families with lighter skinned and darker skinned siblings, as indeed exists throughout the entire sahel. what does that really mean? when was there not mixing of peoples?
and when egypt is seen as the source of civilization, do we mean civilization as in the english meaning, which carries roman roots? i always thought writing, big buildings, large governments were european definitions of civilization, leaving poor old Umuofia, Things Fall Apart, out in the rain to be beaten on by european values.
when the palm oil of words in achebe's texts is eaten, is that not some other kind of artifact of "civilization" that bears all the sophistication of aristotelian thought?
it isn't a question of who built the biggest structures, but rather, who is defining the criteria for "civilization." is it such a colonial notion, can't we just throw it out and start on better footing. let's start with Camara Laye's L'Enfant noir. there's lots of civilization there, far from the coast.

i don't buy the afrocentrist need to find authentic origins, much less to locate them in egypt.
lastly, if egyptians came from black africa, who didn't? didn't we all originate somewhere around the horn, many tens of thousands of years ago? who is the outsider to this african heritage?
ken (ok, i am not a historian; i read novels and watch movies....)

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[Anunoby, Ogugua]

There are scholars- Western scholars I might add, who seem to have a problem with associating great, positive moments, accomplishments, and events of history with Black Africa.  The ethnicity of ancient Egyptians should not be a matter of great moment if not for the fact that there are scholars, Western scholars I might add, who go to great lengths to argue that the ancient Egyptians were not Black Africans. Their motivation seems to be that the civilization they created was so advanced and outstanding for its time, that they could not be Black Africans. It does not matter to them for example, that their scholarship may be false and grossly misleading.

Remember the trouble many scholars in the Western World continue to take, streaming discordant shreds of evidence, in their endeavor to convince the world that Cleopatra was Greek and not Egyptian? For them, Cleopatra was too beautiful and smart to be Egyptian- African. Should her ethnicity matter as much as they make it out to be? I do not think so.  Her role in history after all was set, not by her ethnicity but her beauty and guile. She is said to be a beautiful, sophisticated, manipulative charmer. Those attributes are not exclusive to Greeks? All through time, historical characters (women) of similar beauty and guile, have existed in all parts of the world dominated by men. They continue to exist.  

Blowbacks are necessary to counter the misinformation and misrepresentations of history. It is important to report history correctly. If there was no question, an answer would not follow. Gloria’s posting, whether or not it is historical and/or ideological, serves this purpose. It is even more so if it is the correct version of history which it might be. She is helping to counter Western historian or anthropologist who pleasure in  characterize the ancient Egyptians (of the Pharaohs) as not being Black Africans.

Ken must know that there are scholars- Western scholars for the most part  whose stock-in-trade is the denigration of all that is not native to their race as they narrowly define it. One wishes that all scholar have a more enlightened view of history, life, and our common humanity which view Ken seems to me to have. One would expect them to know that setting people needlessly apart by race especially (no one chooses their race by the way), has done more harm than good. Yes it has, if facts and the truth matter. That enterprise is one that continues to be successful in helping to make the world a worse place than it needs to be, for all who inhabit her.

 

oa

 

oa

[awori]

Yes Ken, who defines civilisation? What is it anyway? The only problem is that, we the African intelligentsia have...with naked abandon surrendered of telling our story to others. How many African universities are engaged in deep research on the history and heritage of the continent and her peopl?

[kenneth harrow]

hi ogugua
i am dubious that the scholars to whom you are imputing opinions about dubious accomplishments in africa are serious scholars. i am not talking about the debate between bernal and the greek classicists, which is not a question of african accomplishments, but of influences--a valid debate, where bernal held his own.
as far as blowbacks being needed, that is true on the level of ideology and popular discourse, but not scholarship.
if i am wrong, then i'd like to know who these serious scholars you are. after spending decades in african studies, i find quite the opposite of what you cite: african scholars, respected, important figures, have devoted their lives to doing exactly the opposite of what you write. that is, they study, learn about, inquire into, interpret, become expert in, learn to love and disseminate knowledge about africa, not present negative views blithely so as to advance eurocentric agendas.
you write, ogogua, that i know there are scholars whose stock-in-trade is denigration of all that is not native to their race. i am not lying when i say i don't know a single person like that. (i'm not that old)--i;d have to have lived 100 years to be of such a generation. the scholars i know (primarily  literature, cinema people) are exactly the opposite. they love and admire african accomplishments--why else devote your life to it? who would publish a book, nowadays, that was racist, that advanced white over black values in african studies? i cannot imagine such a thing.
what am i missing here? the popular culture is riven with racism, to be sure. but the academy is just the opposite.
ogugua, i don't state this to refute your claim, but as an honest question: where do you see this racist perspective in the scholarship? if i am naive, and don't see it, i am certainly willing to learn. perhaps in other disciplines than my own?
lastly, to return to blowbacks: of course, i couldn't agree more...on the level of the popular press, films, novels, cultural expression, confederate flag people exist, govern, dominate the republican party, have constituents. we are inundated with that. but in the circles of the academy, honestly, i can't think of an historical, literary, cinema scholar whom we could attribute such racist values to.
ken

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

Hello Ken,

I am not sure that it is appropriate for you or I to characterize any scholar- a learned person, expert in a specific area of study, as serious or not, for public consumption.  

I am also struggling to see that the boundaries you set up between the works of some scholars on the one hand, and ideology and public discourse on the other matters significantly, because quite oftentimes, ideology draws from the works of great minds some call scholars, and popular discourse draws from ideology, and not necessarily in the above other. The point is that they all can be part of the same cobweb.  What seems to be true also is that historical inferences and enduring public attitudes are formed based on them all.

As you may be aware, the systematic nature of European racism is much demonstrated in the racism (some say racist thoughts and works) of Hegel, Hume, Kant, and Mill- very influential Eurocentric thinkers who together, helped to concretize the tradition of modern philosophical racism which in many cases, sought to delegitimize Black Africa’s contribution to world civilization, legitimized Africa’s colonization, and helped to shape the systemic injustices based on race, that is practiced by some people of European descent.  

[kenneth harrow]

well, on the popular level, who defines civilization is indeed the question.
as for african intellectuals taking it seriously, toyin falola is not
the only scholar in a line of many many african scholars going back a
long time who research the continent and her people. the history dept in
cheikh anta diop was, and is, highly respected precisely for its work on
african history. let's not despair when we should be proud...
eurocentric definitions of civilization should not concern us, as far as
i am concerned. as ogugua said, we need to blowback against the
propaganda, but not to be discouraged by that work. it goes with the
territory
ken

On 8/1/15 3:07 PM, awori wrote:
> Yes Ken, who defines civilisation? What is it anyway? The only problem is that, we the African intelligentsia have...with naked abandon surrendered of telling our story to others. How many African universities are engaged in deep research on the history and heritage of the continent and her peopl?
>

[Ikhide]

Hahahahaha! You slay me. Egbe belu, ugo belu. Let the "serious" scholar perch, let the unserious scholar perch... It's all good...

- Ikhide

[kenneth harrow]

hi ogugua
first of all, when you publish something, you open yourself up to critique. we are free to criticize and evaluate the values/ideology of anyone whose material is public. publishing actually invites commentary. i think of it as sticking your head up above the surface: speak out, people can throw stones back.

secondly, in bekolo's film on mudimbe, mudimbe made a distinction between three orders of knowledge. one was myth--all people have myths that frame their understanding of the world. religions are an example.
secondly he identified public knowledge, ordinary, non-specialized common sense. more or less shared knowledge that enables us to live, to communicate with each other, to live in the world--a common understanding of the world.

third is disciplinary knowledge.

when i argued w you about the attitudes toward race in the academy, it was based only on my knowledge of contemporary scholars' work, on disciplinary knowledge. when i said, name the racists for me, i didn't imagine you would be going back to the past....
of course scholars, westerners, english, french, etc, were racists in the past.
so maybe, a more interesting question might be, when did that end, not did it characterize the work of hegel. more pertinently, when did the accepted truths of scholarship begin to exclude racist presuppositions?
that i don't know, but would guess that the shift began around the 1930s, at least with anthropology; around the 1950s with historians; that the major figures in history probably rewrote their discipline's basic assumptions somewhere around then.

as for literature, there are authors who are racist; but literary critics, by which i mean scholars, share a common worldview grounded in antiracism.
an author whom i consider racist is naipaul.
there is debate about exactly how we should read his work.
perhaps we could say the way that african literature is viewed by non-africanists generally reflects eurocentric values, i could buy that.
but, to put a cap on this, the racism of the 19th century, among the thinkers whom you cite, discredits their work. not all their work, but that portion of it. for instance, conrad's racism is not where we go when reading his novels; we teach them despite the racism; we teach kant, hegel, despite their racism. no one says, he is hegel, so let's accept his views on africa.

ken

[kenneth harrow]

mario
how many millions of years ago did davidson write that?
what is the current history? maybe gloria would know that?
ken

[Mario Fenyo]

Indeed it was long ago, but in my own lifetime.   "Ancient" history changes but slowly.   

I hope Dr. Emeagwali will respond to confirm or correct.    

Mario

---

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2015 1:42 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

[Emeagwali, Gloria (History)]

Yes ....Dialectical after south to
north movement and long before
the Persian,Greek,Roman and
Arab invasions.Recent DNA/
molecular biological tests confirm
Davidson.Will forward one of these.

Gloria




Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department
CCSU. New Britain. CT 06050
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries on
Africa and the African Diaspora
________________________________________
From: Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 11:06 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

Sorry, ken. I spent the last forty years doing literature.
You would know better.

Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department
CCSU. New Britain. CT 06050
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries on
Africa and the African Diaspora
________________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]

Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2015 1:42 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

mario
how many millions of years ago did davidson write that?
what is the current history? maybe gloria would know that?
ken

On 7/31/15 3:44 PM, Mario Fenyo wrote:
according to Davidson and some others, the relationship was dialectical, from Nubia to Kemet, from Kemet to Nubia.

Respectfully, Mario Fenyo
________________________________

From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com> [usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>] on behalf of awori [awori....@gmail.com<mailto:awori....@gmail.com>]

Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 8:58 AM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series

Cc: cham...@yahoo.com<mailto:cham...@yahoo.com>

Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

Not being a historian of any kind---I would not hazard to give a factual response to the views below. I however would like to raise issues that the author and others could consider. When you refer to ancient Egypt---what exactly do you mean? What was ancient ancient Nubia---what distinguishes ancient Nubia from the so called ancient Egypt? Finally according to archaeological and scientific findings---what was the progression of the Nubia/Egyptian civilizations---was it from the source of the Nile--Northwards or the other way round? Answers to these questions might (probably) help answer some of the quetion.

Awori

On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 8:38:41 AM UTC+3, Chambi Chachage wrote:
Gloria Emeagwali et al., do you agree with Lawrence Mbogoni below?

________________________________

From: "'Mbogoni, Lawrence' mbog...@wpunj.edu<UrlBlockedError.aspx> [Wanazuoni]" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com<UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
To: "Wana...@yahoogroups.com<UrlBlockedError.aspx>" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com<UrlBlockedError.aspx>>

Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 12:29 AM
Subject: RE: [Wanazuoni] Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?


Wanazuoni,

I am joining this dialogue rather late. But as a historian of Africa I feel bound to answer Mr. Makakala’s concerns about the relationship of ancient Egypt/Nubia and the rest of Africa. Makakala begins with the view that: “the current North Africa has been shaped mainly by forces which are foreign to the continent. Hence, the fact that the North has produced many scholars for centuries has more to do with the cultures that influenced it rather than [the rest of] Africa.” The observation is true to a certain extent. For centuries ancient Egypt was a part of the Mediterranean world and Egypt influenced at the same time it was itself influenced parts of this region especially what is today Israel/Palestine and Greece. Ancient Egypt was an imperial power whose influence extended to the southern fringes of Assyria. Some evidence even suggests that one of the pharaohs conquered and briefly ruled ancient Greece. However, ancient Egypt’s imperial endeavors beyond Nubia were thwarted partly by geographical factors and partly by resistance especially along the Red Sea toward Puntland (northern Somalia). Evidently, had ancient Egypt’s imperial endeavors succeeded its influence would have been far afield south of Nubia. That said, as part of the Mediterranean world Egypt learnt as it taught neighboring peoples many things. Alexandria was for centuries a center of learning in the region that attracted especially ancient Greek scholars. Herodotus, reputed to be the father of history, deemed it necessary to visit Egypt and left us a very interesting account of his experience of the people and their achievements. In short, scholarly achievements in Egypt and North Africa were/are not just the result of influences from other cultures but are also indigenous to ancient Egypt.

Makakala wonders how ancient Egypt and Nubia could have developed so far ahead while none of that development did not leak to the rest of the continent. My response is had ancient Egypt’s imperial endeavors southward succeeded its influences would have extended beyond Nubia. But even where Egyptian imperialism was extended, such as in the Levant, there is very little in evidence about Egyptian achievements. There are no pyramids in Lebanon, Israel or Jordan although these areas were once subject to Egyptian imperialism. As for evidence of permanent buildings from anywhere else in Africa comparable to Egypt’s there is none except the stone citadels of ancient Zimbabwe. But by permanent buildings I believe Makakala is referring to the Egyptian pyramids. However, most Egyptians built and resided in mud structures. The three pyramids we see today were presumably funerary structures although most if not all pharaohs were buried in underground tombs (Pharaoh Cheops, the builder of the biggest of the threes was not even buried in it).

Furthermore, Makakala queries why Africa is considered the exception when it comes to diversity characteristic of Europe and Asia. I wonder who is guilty of his accusation since historians of Africa have highlighted its diversity in peoples, cultures, languages, climates, forms of worship, lifestyles, etc. for quite a while now. Any introductory text about Africa begins with its geographical, cultural, linguistic, and ethnic/racial diversities (Cf. textbooks by Robert July; Robert Collins). No historian worth the name would insist Africa to be uniform.

Moreover, I find it interesting that Makakala equates sedentary life with permanent buildings. Rather, it is the rise of agriculture that was the genesis of permanent human settlements not just in Africa but elsewhere in the world. Tending to crops required people to stay put in one place unlike tending to livestock, hence the difference between agricultural and pastoralist societies. Be that as it may, urbanization was not only unique to ancient Egypt on the continent. For an historical account of the process of urbanization in Africa south of the Sahara Makakala can refer to Catherine Vidrovitch’s book entitled *Urbanization in Africa.*
Finally, it is puzzling how Makakala equates scripts (i.e. the written word) with sharing of knowledge, skills and innovations and hence development. The privileging of the written word and hence written records as the only sources of history was conclusively debunked by Jan Vansina in his book entitled *The Oral Tradion.* That said, if having a written language is that important, how does one explain the lack of development and political vulnerability of Arabs and the Chinese who, like the Africans, were easily conquered by Europeans despite having written languages of their own?

Kila la kheri.

Mbogoni


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[kenneth harrow]

gloria
what does dna show? it is something like a tie/relationship at a given
historical moment? (since everyone originated in east africa, wouldn't
we all share dna? if it splits off, when is the moment measured?)
ken

[Anunoby, Ogugua]

 

Hello Ken,

 

“conrad's racism is not where we go when reading his novels”  Ken

 

Why not? Where do you go if I may ask? Is ‘Heart of Darkness’ one of the novels you refer to?

 

What does teach Conrad and Hegel “despite their racism” mean” Is an honest job teaching them likely if this is so?

I believe that one must enter a writer’s soul if the one is to correctly and fully appreciate/understand  the writer. This to me, is why a writer’s bent should not be ignored in reading them.

[kenneth harrow]

hi ogugua
i said something like, we teach him despite his racism. it becomes pretty limited to teach 19th c authors for how racist they were. to learn about the common assumptions about race in a period is important, to be sure, but not all there is to their work. heart of darkness, about the night of the soul, about how the colonialists plunged us into that deepest element of human brutality, to the point where the "civilized" people discovered that everything they thought about barbarians was actually in their own soul, world, history--that expands us far beyond the dumb simply reading of conrad as nothing but a racist. achebe makes an adequate argument that he was racist; but he fails to explicate the condemnation of colonialism and european values that the novella ultimately puts forth. i suggest, if anyone really cares, to read edward said's interpellation in this argument to get the argument i am making.
what possible use is there to bother with hegel's racism? or marx's? do we throw away the baby with the bath water? is their racism, which was largely the euro-view of their period, reason to reject their positions on how the spirit and history works in conflict, in dialectial struggle; the class issues; the epistemological readings? there is far too much that has no relationship to race to ignore.
rather we can say, they were limited in their views, but they also laid foundations for philosophical or political thought that we can still build upon. derrida's reading of the spirit, the ghost of marx, is invaluable.
 you ask if there is reason to read them despite their racism? i can't really believe it makes sense to throw away so much key work because of the flaws in other aspects, and not only those dealing with race. nor is race the only vector of importance in reading an author.

so, shakespeare's othello is problematic because of race; the merchant of venice because of anti-semitism. do i throw away all the rest??
similarly, armah's work is horribly anti-arab; do i throw away The Beautyful ones? what exactly is the point?
lastly, there is no soul to a writer; no bent.
i like barthes when we leads us, with foucault, to the notion of the death of the author. read the works, forget the author.
ken

On 8/4/15 6:37 PM, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:

 

Hello Ken,

 

“conrad's racism is not where we go when reading his novels”  Ken

 

Why not? Where do you go if I may ask? Is ‘Heart of Darkness’ one of the novels you refer to?

 

What does teach Conrad and Hegel “despite their racism” mean” Is an honest job teaching them likely if this is so?

o

[Segun Ogungbemi]

Ken,

I appreciate your view but it is really difficult to comprehend the logic of someone denigrating your race, identity, dignity, culture and pride and you give his work an intellectual handshake. I can't remember the exact date in 1979 as a postgraduate student at SMU Dallas, I was to read Hegel so I went to the  University Central Library to check out one of his books. I was initially exited and thrilled to  get one of his books. As I began to read some portions of the book and his idea of the Black race stirred me on the face, I lost interest in his work. Ken, since then I lost interest in whatever philosophical nonsense he wrote. 

As a philosopher Hegel should have used his knowledge of historical dialectic to remove his bias and ignorance of the race he never had intimate interaction with. 

There was a missionary who taught us in the Bible College in 1966. We noticed his racial attitude towards us in class and decided to boycott his class. Before the end of the academic year, he was sent back to wherever he came from in Europe or America or Canada. He was a very brilliant teacher but his posture was that of KKK. Did we throw away the baby and the bath water? Not at all, Ken. We simply threw away the racist and the bath water of racism. 

Prof. Segun Ogungbemi

[kenneth harrow]

hi segun
of course i understand the feeling. if i were to submit musicians to the test of racism or anti-semitism, i'd never listen to wagner. i've heard irele singing wagner. we ignore his abominable thoughts, or those of many others, and take what is good.
that is not so easy. it isn't hegel alone who was racist. it was his whole era. europeans came to believe in their superiority as they asserted military rule and conquered other people. how often is it the case that conquerors believe in their superiority? why do we have an American Firster political candidate, trump, who is leading the pack??

as i said in the previous posting, othello could well be interpreted as racist, but i am not prepared to ditch shakespeare for all that. i would teach him, but try to explain his worldview in terms of the thinking of the time. same for hegel.
is it not a problem for us to be judging people from the past on the basis of our current ways of putting the world together, of making sense of the world?
that said, i must admit i have a hard time swallowing naipaul due to his conservative eurocentrist racist values. and there is much in conrad that is also highly distasteful. to be sure. not just in Heart of Darkness.
so, i can't always live up to my own advice!
ken

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[kwame zulu shabazz]

All,

The African-centered perspective that the ancient Egyptians were Africans (note I didn't use the word "black") is gradually winning converts. Diop's important work erred in the sense that he mistakenly believed that he had to prove that the ancient Egyptians were stereotypically "black" when, in fact, African phenotypes and genotypes are more diverse than anywhere else on the planet. Given the extreme racist bias Diop combated for the whole of his scholarly career, his error is totally understandable.

The DNA evidence is contested. However, according to African American biological anthropologist Shomarka Keita, dna and other biological data of ancient Egyptians clusters with modern African populations. Keita has numerous lectures and publications on the topic available online. See, for example, his lecture "Bio Cultural Origins of Kemet (ancient Egypt)." Also see Sally-Ann Ashton's (Ashton is a curator, Department of Antiquities, Fitzwilliam Museum, Cambridge) talk at the Manchester Museum provocatively titled, "Curating Kemet: Fear of a Black Land." Another vital source is the conference and subsequent edited volume Egypt in its African Context. Read the intro to the book here. The Fitzwilliam Museum in Cambridge is also an excellent source.

To borrow Ken's term, the "split offs" occur when there was a lack of gene flow over thousands of years between populations who migrated out of Africa and were subsequently isolated genetically from their African source and adapted to local environmental pressures. So, for example, the Jarawa and other populations of the Andaman and Nicobar Islands (India) are look stereotypically African--very dark and kinky hair but they don't cluster with African or Asian populations genetically or linguistically because they migrated out of Africa circa 60 kya and lived in isolation from other Asia populations. See, for example, the peer-reviewed article "The Genetic Origins of the Andaman Islanders" (if you can't wade through the article the key phrase is that "phenotypic similarities with African groups are convergent"). And the original settlers of Europe were likely dark skinned Africans who gradually evolved phenotypically to what we now consider European today. The modern European phenotype is only about 10,000 years old.

I also wanted to amplify Mgogoni's important point about Egyptian imperialism (i.e. no comparable pyramid technology in the Levant). Egyptian expansionism only starts in the New Kingdom after expelling the "Hyskos," the first foreign occupiers of the ancient Egyptian dynastic period. The imperial projects seem to have been an effort to create a buffer after regaining sovereignty from the Hyskos. Ancient Egypt was already a thousand years old before it's military campaigns in Asia thus making the claim that ancient Egyptian civilization was somehow an accomplishment of populations outside of the African continent all the more dubious.

Forward ever,

kzs

> From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com> [usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadi...@googlegroups.com>] on behalf of awori [awori....@gmail.com<mailto:awori....@gmail.com>]

> Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 8:58 AM
> To: USA Africa Dialogue Series

> Cc: cham...@yahoo.com<mailto:chambi...@yahoo.com>

> Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?
>
> Not being a historian of any kind---I would not hazard to give a factual response to the views below. I however would like to raise issues that the author and others could consider. When you refer to ancient Egypt---what exactly do you mean? What was ancient ancient Nubia---what distinguishes ancient Nubia from the so called ancient Egypt?  Finally according to archaeological and scientific findings---what was the progression of the Nubia/Egyptian civilizations---was it from the source of the Nile--Northwards or the other way round? Answers to these questions might (probably) help answer some of the quetion.
>
> Awori
>
> On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 8:38:41 AM UTC+3, Chambi Chachage wrote:
> Gloria Emeagwali et al., do you agree with Lawrence Mbogoni below?
>
> ________________________________
> From: "'Mbogoni, Lawrence' mbog...@wpunj.edu<UrlBlockedError.aspx> [Wanazuoni]" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com<UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
> To: "Wana...@yahoogroups.com<UrlBlockedError.aspx>" <Wana...@yahoogroups.com<UrlBlockedError.aspx>>
> Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 12:29 AM
> Subject: RE: [Wanazuoni] Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?
>
>
> Wanazuoni,
>
> I am joining this dialogue rather late. But as a historian of Africa I feel bound to answer Mr. Makakala’s concerns about the relationship of ancient Egypt/Nubia and the rest of Africa. Makakala begins with the view that:  “the current North Africa has been shaped mainly by forces which are foreign to the continent. Hence, the fact that the North has produced many scholars for centuries has more to do with the cultures that influenced it rather than [the rest of] Africa.” The observation is true to a certain extent. For centuries ancient Egypt was a part of the Mediterranean world and Egypt influenced at the same time it was itself influenced parts of this region especially what is today Israel/Palestine and Greece. Ancient Egypt was an imperial power whose influence extended to the southern fringes of Assyria. Some evidence even suggests that one of the pharaohs conquered and briefly ruled ancient Greece. However, ancient Egypt’s imperial endeavors beyond Nubia were thwarted partly by geographical factors and partly by resistance especially along the Red Sea toward Puntland (northern Somalia). Evidently, had ancient Egypt’s imperial endeavors succeeded its influence would have been far afield south of Nubia. That said, as part of the Mediterranean world Egypt learnt as it taught neighboring peoples many things. Alexandria was for centuries a center of learning in the region that attracted especially ancient Greek scholars. Herodotus, reputed to be the father of history, deemed it necessary to visit Egypt and left us a very interesting account of his experience of the people and their achievements. In short, scholarly achievements in Egypt and North Africa were/are not just the result of influences from other cultures but are also indigenous to ancient Egypt.
>
> Makakala wonders how ancient Egypt and Nubia could have developed so far ahead while none of that development did not leak to the rest of the continent. My response is had ancient Egypt’s imperial endeavors southward succeeded its influences would have extended beyond Nubia. But even where Egyptian imperialism was extended, such as in the Levant, there is very little in evidence about Egyptian achievements. There are no pyramids in Lebanon, Israel or Jordan although these areas were once subject to Egyptian imperialism. As for evidence of permanent buildings from anywhere else in Africa comparable to Egypt’s there is none except the stone citadels of ancient Zimbabwe. But by permanent buildings I believe Makakala is referring to the Egyptian pyramids. However, most Egyptians built and resided in mud structures. The three pyramids we see today were presumably funerary structures although most if not all pharaohs were buried in underground tombs (Pharaoh Cheops, the builder of the biggest of the threes was not even buried in it).
>
> Furthermore, Makakala queries why Africa is considered the exception when it comes to diversity characteristic of Europe and Asia. I wonder who is guilty of his accusation since historians of Africa have highlighted its diversity in peoples, cultures, languages, climates, forms of worship, lifestyles, etc. for quite a while now. Any introductory text about Africa begins with its geographical, cultural, linguistic, and ethnic/racial diversities (Cf. textbooks by Robert July; Robert Collins). No historian worth the name would insist Africa to be uniform.
>
> Moreover, I find it interesting that Makakala equates sedentary life with permanent buildings. Rather, it is the rise of agriculture that was the genesis of permanent human settlements not just in Africa but elsewhere in the world. Tending to crops required people to stay put in one place unlike tending to livestock, hence the difference between agricultural and pastoralist societies. Be that as it may, urbanization was not only unique to ancient Egypt on the continent. For an historical account of the process of urbanization in Africa south of the Sahara Makakala can refer to Catherine Vidrovitch’s book entitled *Urbanization in Africa.*
> Finally, it is puzzling how Makakala equates scripts (i.e. the written word) with sharing of knowledge, skills and innovations and hence development. The privileging of the written word and hence written records as the only sources of history was conclusively debunked by Jan Vansina in his book entitled *The Oral Tradion.* That said, if having a written language is that important, how does one explain the lack of development and political vulnerability of Arabs and the Chinese who, like the Africans, were easily conquered by Europeans despite having written languages of their own?
>
> Kila la kheri.
>
> Mbogoni
>
>
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> kenneth w. harrow
> faculty excellence advocate
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[kenneth harrow]

another thought on this, segun
the idea of removing biases and ignorance about other races is a modern, recent historical development, i should think.
before the mid-20th century, bias was just fine with most people, and ignorance of others/other races was a function of one's education.
i think world war II discredited bias. i am pretty sure this is true.
for a while, biases against jews, blacks, and others were considered to be the thinking of fascists.
unfortunately that perspective has gradually been destroyed with all the recent growth of  biases and hatred of immigrants, with the war on terror, with xenophobic political parties like the american tea party, ukip in england, the national front in france, and the equivalent right wing parties across europe.
nowadays politicians like trump play on the fear and hatred of immigrants (as if most americans were not, in fact, descendants of immigrants), and has followed into the breach created by bush with the war on terrorism.
i am in europe now, and the drum beating against immigrants--syrians, eritreans, black africans, north africans, arabs--is considerable. it is not "unfashionable," in the sense of old-school fascist, even though it simply follows the track of fascism before the war.

i know the same is true in the great lakes region of africa; and on our list-serve, the drum beating denigration of yoruba or igbos is slightly shocking to my ear. the hatred of the north, i heard it expressed directly on the radio in nigeria, so i know it exists. i suspect it really exists everywhere: dominicans think they are better than haitians, lighter skinned than haitians; puerto ricans think they are better than dominicans, lighter skinned than dominicans; new york whites--italians, jews, irish--when i grew up in the 50s thought they were better than puerto ricans. wasps thought they were better than italians, jews, irish. etc.and of course whites thought they were better than mixed race people, and mixed race, in the caribbean and africa, thought they were better than blacks.
the point is that everyone was completely convinced they were better than someone else. if you were tutsi, you were better than hutu; if you were hutu, you were better than twa. and south africa just replicated that down the line; so did the portuguese in africa; so did the belgians,the french, the british. everyone!

at some point i want to ask, why are we, humans, like that. why aren't we like what you described, people who should be opposed to bias or ignorance about race or about others.

ken

On 8/5/15 3:48 AM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:

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[kwame zulu shabazz]

Correction: slight error in my previous post. According to the best evidence, the occupants of the Nicobar Islands are more recent arrivals and cluster with South Asian populations.

kzs

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[kenneth harrow]

thanks for the updates kwame
a brief observation. anyone who has traveled in the sahara can tell you that the diversity of types that kwame marks in egypt are to be found everywhere south of the coastal plains and mountains. secondly, i don't know how the north could have been considered isolated from the south: the sahara was the sea across which caravans passed since time immemorial. i've seen some of the caravan cities in mauretania, been in the oasis cities in algeria. they go back forever.
that's what confuses me re egypt. from nubia across the "sud"--sudan to egypt, wasn't there always trade, always the passages of people?
lastly, the people who need convincing that they are african are north africans. they reject the label, for obvious reasons. that needs to be addressed. perhaps it is in that same mentality that people want to look outside of egypt for earlier middle eastern civilizations...??
ken

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[Segun Ogungbemi]

Thanks Ken. Sometimes it is difficult to live up to one's advice. It is human. 

I later became more tolerant as I advanced in my studies as a postgraduate philosophy student. Kant, Mill, Russell, Hobbes, Hume etc were all racists. I benefited from their ideas as I advanced in my study of philosophy even till today. 

But Hegel and Toynbee the historian were terrible racists.  

I enjoy reading your contributions to this forum. 

Prof. Segun Ogungbemi

[Chambi Chachage]

Ken, read 'subtle racist' research by some scholars involved in what is dubbed 'the new economic history of Africa':

The new economic history of Africa

				The new economic history of Africa This 2010 piece looks very interesting, I haven’t had the chance to read it yet, source here.
				View on marginalrevolution.com	Preview by Yahoo

---

From: kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu>
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, August 2, 2015 12:30 AM

[Chambi Chachage]

Ken, this is why:

“When you read any scientific book, by the Western scientists especially, terms used to name certain objects or elements refer to ancient Latin or Greek; the Indian scientists sometime refer their concepts to ancient Sanskrit. Those who studied some African languages found that many basic words have ancient KMTian [Kemet-ian] roots. For purpose of unity in the African research, through African languages, why not make the study of the Ancient Egyptian necessary? This would also enhance the development of African languages. We saw that in terms of social philosophy, solidarity is the mark of African traditional cultures. Despite the pressure of peripheral capitalism on societies, the extended family is not disappearing. Expectations for social happiness, for a sacred leadership above corruption, above the desire to accumulate and promotes sharing, which is against lies and mediocrity are still alive in our societies. One has just to go through the African proverbs to be convinced of this. To some extent, we may say that there are still remnants of the KMT social paradigm. Why not formalize this as part of the basic compass in our African societies?The foundation of African scientific research is still based on a philosophy of returning to the Western sources, not having our own sources and borrowing and learning from other sources as well as other people do. Did Plato go to Greece to look for data and go to Egypt to write his thesis? He studied and learned what he could and went back home and wrote in his language. We find it difficult to do the same because we have neglected our languages and have adopted other people’s languages and call them ‘languages of culture’ as if ours are culturally barren...I have been involved in the translation of Ancient Egyptian texts into African languages and I have been finding those texts very enlightening and awakening. Some of them touch on crucial issues we have been struggling with: spirituality, morality, leadership, unity, solidarity, etc.”” - Ernest Wamba dia Wamba

---

From: kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu>
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, July 31, 2015 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs related to Ugandans?

[kwame zulu shabazz]

Brother Chambi,

Wow! Fascinating quote from Elder Wamba. I wouldn't have figured him to be such a strong Afrocentrist. Asante sana for sharing it. Coincidentally, I teach a memoir, "Kinship," written by his son, Philippe Wamba, who died in a car crash several years back.

Forward ever,

kzs

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[kenneth harrow]

hi chambi
i can't really make a useful comment on the quote, except to say it seems more ideological than historical.
i'll let others with more knowledge in the field chime in.
ken

[kenneth harrow]

hi chambi
i clicked on the link and saw a group of comments; not entirely sure what you were referring to
ken

[Chambi Chachage]

Ken, this is the article that reviews the literature on the so-called new economic history of Africa:

The causal history of Africa: A response to Hopkins - Munich Personal RePEc Archive

		The causal history of Africa: A response to Hopkins - Munich Personal RePEc Archive References: Acemoglu, D. and Johnson, S. (2005). Unbundling institutions. Journal of Political Economy, 113(5):949{995. Acemoglu, D., Johnson, S., and Robinson, J. A. (2001).
		View on mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de	Preview by Yahoo

Cf. Economics and genetics meet in uneasy union

				Economics and genetics meet in uneasy union Use of population-genetic data to predict economic success sparks war of words.
				View on www.nature.com	Preview by Yahoo

---

From: kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu>
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, August 7, 2015 12:54 AM