Dr. Ben Carson on the race issue in the US
173 views
Skip to first unread message
Cornelius Hamelberg
Sep 25, 2015, 9:14:12 AM9/25/15
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
It's outrageous that a Black man could see and if he wasn't a brain surgeon you'd think that he had a screw or two loose, up there. And this man wants to be elected president of the United States?
“Before Obama, people barely noticed skin color; that goes
back 150 years. Blacks were happy and grateful for what we were given.” (Benjamin
Carson)
kenneth harrow
Sep 25, 2015, 11:43:53 AM9/25/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
he really said this? amazing. no wonder white conservatives like
him.
On 9/25/15 6:08 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg
wrote:
It's outrageous that a Black man could see and if he wasn't a brain surgeon you'd think that he had a screw or two loose, up there. And this man wants to be elected president of the United States?
“Before Obama, people barely noticed skin color; that goes back 150 years. Blacks were happy and grateful for what we were given.” (Benjamin Carson)
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
-- kenneth w. harrow faculty excellence advocate professor of english michigan state university department of english 619 red cedar road room C-614 wells hall east lansing, mi 48824 ph. 517 803 8839 har...@msu.edu
Samuel Zalanga
Sep 25, 2015, 1:02:03 PM9/25/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Reminds me of Plato's "parable of the ship of state."
Samuel
Samuel Zalanga
Department of Anthropology, Sociology & Reconciliation Studies
Bethel University, 3900 Bethel Drive #24
Saint Paul, MN 55112.
Office Phone: 651-638-6023
Department of Anthropology, Sociology & Reconciliation Studies
Bethel University, 3900 Bethel Drive #24
Saint Paul, MN 55112.
Office Phone: 651-638-6023
Anunoby, Ogugua
Sep 25, 2015, 3:08:00 PM9/25/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Ben Carson has said worse.
According to The Washington Times (10/11/13), Carson said that Obamacare is “the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery…” in that year’s Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington. Imagine that from not an African-American, but a trained medical doctor to a blood thirsty ideology driven audience. Did Carson say who blacks are happy with and grateful to “for what they were given” Does he know that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and many others on all sides lived? Is knowledge of history his problem? I wonder.
Specific audience targeted hyperbolic statements might just be his stock in trade. Everyone must make up their minds about whether or not he believes them.
kenneth harrow
Sep 25, 2015, 3:59:01 PM9/25/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
this is the historic low point for the political thermometer of this
nation. we are more conservative, extreme conservative, xenophobic,
right-wing, and even neofascist, than any time in my memory.
that candidates like carson and trump are leading the pack, given their views, their hatred of foreigners or the poor, is unbelievable.
thanks for providing the quote that just confirms my pessimism.
ken
that candidates like carson and trump are leading the pack, given their views, their hatred of foreigners or the poor, is unbelievable.
thanks for providing the quote that just confirms my pessimism.
ken
Chambi Chachage
Sep 27, 2015, 4:21:24 AM9/27/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
At the risk of defending Ben Carson, let me say I don't think he is oblivious of the plight of black people. His first book - Gifted Hands - is an autobiography of a black kid who grew up in an impoverished black neighbourhood. There must be something else that explains why he is saying unacceptable things: postracial politics of success?
“being a member of a minority race doesn’t mean being a minority achiever.”
― Ben Carson, Gifted Hands 20th Anniversary Edition: The Ben Carson Story
― Ben Carson, Gifted Hands 20th Anniversary Edition: The Ben Carson Story
As for the conservatism, an explanation is readily available. He is a Seventh-day Adventist (SDAs). Although there are liberal SDAs, the foundation of adventism is pretty much conservative as far as issues of sexuality and abortion are concerned. He is indeed caught up in an ideological dilemma - no wonder SDAsm and politics tend not to mix.
"Adventist Church in North America Issues Statement on Ben Carson's U.S. Presidential Bid" - http://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story2602-adventist-church-in-north-america-issues-statement-on-ben-carsons-u.s.-presidential-bid
From: kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu>
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 3:52 PM
Anunoby, Ogugua
Sep 27, 2015, 12:37:19 PM9/27/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Is there anyone who knows anyone, especially an African-American, who does not agree that “being a member of a minority race does’nt mean being a minority achiever”? His credentials suggest that he is a very educated intelligent man. His religion and Christian denomination should therefore not excuse the absurd and divisive statements he continues to make on important issues of public policy interest and the arrogance and disdain with which he expresses them.
kenneth harrow
Sep 27, 2015, 3:06:24 PM9/27/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
there is a simple response to this: clarence thomas
ken
ken
Anunoby, Ogugua
Sep 28, 2015, 11:49:12 AM9/28/15
to usaafricadialogue@googlegroups.com (USAAfricaDialogue@googlegroups.com)
Is there anyone who knows anyone, especially an African-American, who does not agree that “being a member of a minority race does’nt mean being a minority achiever”? His credentials suggest that he is a very educated intelligent man. His religion and Christian denomination should therefore not excuse the absurd and divisive statements he continues to make on important issues of public interest and the arrogance and disdain with which he expresses them.
When I think about him sometimes, I am reminded of the late Sir Bobby Robson, a former England Football (soccer) manager. He said the Argentine former professional footballer, Maradona, was a very gifted man but all his gifts seem to be in his left foot. Is this man’s brilliance in medicine mostly? I wonder?
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2015 2:57 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Emeagwali, Gloria (History)
Sep 28, 2015, 1:35:28 PM9/28/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
He is an opportunist.
He knows that the more he insults Black people, they more funds he will get
from wealthy racists, for his election campaign.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department
CCSU. New Britain. CT 06050
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries on
Africa and the African Diaspora
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anunoby, Ogugua [Anun...@lincolnu.edu]
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:41 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com (USAAfric...@googlegroups.com)
Subject: FW: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Dr. Ben Carson on the race issue in the US
Is there anyone who knows anyone, especially an African-American, who does not agree that “being a member of a minority race does’nt mean being a minority achiever”? His credentials suggest that he is a very educated intelligent man. His religion and Christian denomination should therefore not excuse the absurd and divisive statements he continues to make on important issues of public interest and the arrogance and disdain with which he expresses them.
When I think about him sometimes, I am reminded of the late Sir Bobby Robson, a former England Football (soccer) manager. He said the Argentine former professional footballer, Maradona, was a very gifted man but all his gifts seem to be in his left foot. Is this man’s brilliance in medicine mostly? I wonder?
oa
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com> [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com]
“being a member of a minority race doesn’t mean being a minority achiever.”
― Ben Carson<https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/11100.Ben_Carson>, Gifted Hands 20th Anniversary Edition: The Ben Carson Story<https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/19842>
As for the conservatism, an explanation is readily available. He is a Seventh-day Adventist (SDAs). Although there are liberal SDAs, the foundation of adventism is pretty much conservative as far as issues of sexuality and abortion are concerned. He is indeed caught up in an ideological dilemma - no wonder SDAsm and politics tend not to mix.
"Adventist Church in North America Issues Statement on Ben Carson's U.S. Presidential Bid" - http://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story2602-adventist-church-in-north-america-issues-statement-on-ben-carsons-u.s.-presidential-bid
________________________________
From: kenneth harrow <har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>>
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com>
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com>
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com>
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com>
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com>
He knows that the more he insults Black people, they more funds he will get
from wealthy racists, for his election campaign.
Professor Gloria Emeagwali
History Department
CCSU. New Britain. CT 06050
africahistory.net
vimeo.com/user5946750/videos
Gloria Emeagwali's Documentaries on
Africa and the African Diaspora
________________________________
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anunoby, Ogugua [Anun...@lincolnu.edu]
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 11:41 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com (USAAfric...@googlegroups.com)
Subject: FW: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Dr. Ben Carson on the race issue in the US
Is there anyone who knows anyone, especially an African-American, who does not agree that “being a member of a minority race does’nt mean being a minority achiever”? His credentials suggest that he is a very educated intelligent man. His religion and Christian denomination should therefore not excuse the absurd and divisive statements he continues to make on important issues of public interest and the arrogance and disdain with which he expresses them.
When I think about him sometimes, I am reminded of the late Sir Bobby Robson, a former England Football (soccer) manager. He said the Argentine former professional footballer, Maradona, was a very gifted man but all his gifts seem to be in his left foot. Is this man’s brilliance in medicine mostly? I wonder?
oa
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2015 2:57 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Dr. Ben Carson on the race issue in the US
At the risk of defending Ben Carson, let me say I don't think he is oblivious of the plight of black people. His first book - Gifted Hands<https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/19842-gifted-hands-the-ben-carson-story> - is an autobiography of a black kid who grew up in an impoverished black neighbourhood. There must be something else that explains why he is saying unacceptable things: postracial politics of success?
“being a member of a minority race doesn’t mean being a minority achiever.”
As for the conservatism, an explanation is readily available. He is a Seventh-day Adventist (SDAs). Although there are liberal SDAs, the foundation of adventism is pretty much conservative as far as issues of sexuality and abortion are concerned. He is indeed caught up in an ideological dilemma - no wonder SDAsm and politics tend not to mix.
"Adventist Church in North America Issues Statement on Ben Carson's U.S. Presidential Bid" - http://www.adventistreview.org/church-news/story2602-adventist-church-in-north-america-issues-statement-on-ben-carsons-u.s.-presidential-bid
________________________________
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Dr. Ben Carson on the race issue in the US
this is the historic low point for the political thermometer of this nation. we are more conservative, extreme conservative, xenophobic, right-wing, and even neofascist, than any time in my memory.
that candidates like carson and trump are leading the pack, given their views, their hatred of foreigners or the poor, is unbelievable.
thanks for providing the quote that just confirms my pessimism.
ken
On 9/25/15 1:07 PM, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:
Ben Carson has said worse.
According to The Washington Times (10/11/13), Carson said that Obamacare is “the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery…” in that year’s Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington. Imagine that from not an African-American, but a trained medical doctor to a blood thirsty ideology driven audience. Did Carson say who blacks are happy with and grateful to “for what they were given” Does he know that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and many others on all sides lived? Is knowledge of history his problem? I wonder.
Specific audience targeted hyperbolic statements might just be his stock in trade. Everyone must make up their minds about whether or not he believes them.
oa
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com> [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Dr. Ben Carson on the race issue in the US
this is the historic low point for the political thermometer of this nation. we are more conservative, extreme conservative, xenophobic, right-wing, and even neofascist, than any time in my memory.
that candidates like carson and trump are leading the pack, given their views, their hatred of foreigners or the poor, is unbelievable.
thanks for providing the quote that just confirms my pessimism.
ken
On 9/25/15 1:07 PM, Anunoby, Ogugua wrote:
Ben Carson has said worse.
According to The Washington Times (10/11/13), Carson said that Obamacare is “the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery…” in that year’s Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington. Imagine that from not an African-American, but a trained medical doctor to a blood thirsty ideology driven audience. Did Carson say who blacks are happy with and grateful to “for what they were given” Does he know that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and many others on all sides lived? Is knowledge of history his problem? I wonder.
Specific audience targeted hyperbolic statements might just be his stock in trade. Everyone must make up their minds about whether or not he believes them.
oa
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 10:12 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Dr. Ben Carson on the race issue in the US
he really said this? amazing. no wonder white conservatives like him.
On 9/25/15 6:08 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
It's outrageous that a Black man could see and if he wasn't a brain surgeon you'd think that he had a screw or two loose, up there. And this man wants to be elected president of the United States?
“Before Obama, people barely noticed skin color; that goes back 150 years. Blacks were happy and grateful for what we were given.” (Benjamin Carson<https://www.google.se/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=Carson+%3a+Before+OBama+%2c+people+barely+noticed&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4VRHB_svSE642SE642&q=Carson+%3a+Before+OBama+%2c+people+barely+noticed&gs_l=hp....0.0.2.745387...........0.wUZAWf-9wNg#hl=en-GB&q=Carson+:+Before+Obama%2C+people+barely+noticed+skin+color%3B+that+goes+back+150+years.+Blacks+were+happy+and+grateful+for+what+we+were+given>)
he really said this? amazing. no wonder white conservatives like him.
On 9/25/15 6:08 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg wrote:
It's outrageous that a Black man could see and if he wasn't a brain surgeon you'd think that he had a screw or two loose, up there. And this man wants to be elected president of the United States?
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com>
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com>.
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839
har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>
--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com>
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com>.
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com>
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com>.
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839
har...@msu.edu<mailto:har...@msu.edu>
--
kenneth w. harrow
faculty excellence advocate
professor of english
michigan state university
department of english
619 red cedar road
room C-614 wells hall
east lansing, mi 48824
ph. 517 803 8839
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com>
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com>.
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfric...@googlegroups.com>
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com<mailto:USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com>
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com>.
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com<mailto:usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com>.
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
Samuel Zalanga
Sep 28, 2015, 7:04:42 PM9/28/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
He is playing a "role." The problem with human beings in many types of societies, but particularly in advanced modernity is that it is sometimes difficult to figure out what is authentic about a human being. To illustrate to my students in social theory how this represents part of the crisis of modernity, I ask them how can they be sure that when I am teaching, it is the "real or authentic" me that is teaching or just a professorial persona, i.e., just playing a role which any person with similar training and skills can. When people are in a role situation, it is amazing how the dynamics of the role can shape the person's behavior and indeed, sometimes, his or her moral and ethical choices. We know that even conscience is not developed in social vacuum.
Moreover, who knows whether Ben Carson has really sat down to reflect much about himself and do so with the help of others. Getting high level of education is not a guarantee that someone has gone through that kind of reflection. Some people are educated but they are so much in love with themselves that when they look at themselves in the mirror, they want to hug themselves. Modern day education in many instances is about analyzing one or another person or issue (i.e., externally focused on things), but not much about introspection, or self-interrogation or reflecting deeply about oneself.
To get the situation even more complicated, if one is going to reflect on him or herself, one social theorist says there are different pieces to it. There is first who you are, then second, there is how you think about who you think you are. These are two different things. But more problematic, the third, is the fact that for a person to think about who he or she is, he or she cannot do so directly without going through some categories of mediation. These categories or mediation are not produced by the individual and although the individual can choose which category of mediation to use in understanding himself or herself, the choice process does not take place in random or in social vacuum. There are social and institutional constraints and parameters.
What is even of great concern in complicating the situation is that people may be in the same society and situation but choose different categories of mediation through which to understand themselves, because they socially construct different meaning out of it.
So figuring out Ben Carson is as much a project as figuring out ourselves. Part of the problem also is that in figuring ourselves out, sometimes there is a part that is like an abyss, and we do not want to look into that abyss because we are not pleased with what we see about ourselves or who we think we are, and we will do much in order to distract ourselves.
To get the situation even more complicated, if one is going to reflect on him or herself, one social theorist says there are different pieces to it. There is first who you are, then second, there is how you think about who you think you are. These are two different things. But more problematic, the third, is the fact that for a person to think about who he or she is, he or she cannot do so directly without going through some categories of mediation. These categories or mediation are not produced by the individual and although the individual can choose which category of mediation to use in understanding himself or herself, the choice process does not take place in random or in social vacuum. There are social and institutional constraints and parameters.
What is even of great concern in complicating the situation is that people may be in the same society and situation but choose different categories of mediation through which to understand themselves, because they socially construct different meaning out of it.
So figuring out Ben Carson is as much a project as figuring out ourselves. Part of the problem also is that in figuring ourselves out, sometimes there is a part that is like an abyss, and we do not want to look into that abyss because we are not pleased with what we see about ourselves or who we think we are, and we will do much in order to distract ourselves.
We will not know who the authentic Ben Carson is by focusing on his presidential role, just we will not figure out what is authentic about a professor by just focusing on his or her professorial role. In my view, what applies to Ben Carson applies to all other presidential candidates. The fact that Donal Trump wants to increase taxes on the rich does not really get us to his authentic self in terms of whether he is saying this because of a genuine commitment to social justice or just as a way of persuading people to get him to the White House.
The worst thing is that many have abandoned the project of even trying to know the authentic person or trying to be authentic because they see little value in that. More energy is directed at what sort of role people can play so as to get they want? Even in religious leadership we see this problem manifesting in huge proportion. The "consumer taste" of the religious consumers plays an important role in shaping the "product" produced by the religious organization, it beliefs, doctrines, sermons and policies, which often change with consumer taste, else they lose market share.
If we cannot ever reach the authentic person in our world today or that many have abandoned that project, that makes the dignity of humanity fragile and in some cases even what it means to be human disappearing. What remains is just role playing. This is why Ben Carson in my view is just a illustration of one of the manifestations of the crisis of modernity. This sounds somewhat pessimistic. But frankly much of what happens in our world today is like that.
If we cannot ever reach the authentic person in our world today or that many have abandoned that project, that makes the dignity of humanity fragile and in some cases even what it means to be human disappearing. What remains is just role playing. This is why Ben Carson in my view is just a illustration of one of the manifestations of the crisis of modernity. This sounds somewhat pessimistic. But frankly much of what happens in our world today is like that.
Samuel
kenneth harrow
Sep 28, 2015, 7:04:58 PM9/28/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
while this is true, it is also probably true that republicans can claim
that they aren't racist because he is a candidate, a candidate who says
what makes them happy too. really, another clarence thomas.
ken
that they aren't racist because he is a candidate, a candidate who says
what makes them happy too. really, another clarence thomas.
ken
Chambi Chachage
Sep 28, 2015, 8:21:44 PM9/28/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
There is little, if any, difference between this Ben Carson and that of 'Gifted Hands' and 'Think Big'. His message has always been the same - trying to shift the focus from being a 'victim'. Ironically, the message that seemed so popular then when (black) folks were reading his books - and watching a movie about him starring Cuba Gooding Junior - is conflated with his 'black republicanism'. Sadly, with his presidential bid, the strong motivational message of 'agency' he conveyed in his books and foundation is turning 'racist'. I wonder what his former readers think of him now. Re:
EDM: You grew up in the projects in a single family home and you were surrounded by all the ingredients for failure, yet you were able to succeed. Talk about the “victim mentality.” Did you ever feel like a victim, and, if so, how did you work your way through that?
Dr. Carson: My mother, who perhaps had the worst life imaginable, had been one of twenty four children, getting married at age thirteen, then finding out her husband was a bigamist, and being left with two small children to raise on her own. But, she never felt sorry for herself. She never developed a victim’s mentality. She always said, “I can deal with this…I can do something about it.” Therefore she never let us develop it either. If we ever came up with an excuse she always had the same response, “Do you have a brain? And if the answer to that is yes, then you could have thought your way out of it!” (laughter) It doesn’t really matter what anybody else says. It doesn’t really matter what anybody else is doing. When you grow up with a mother like that, it is pretty hard to become a victim and I think that is perhaps one on the greatest things she did for us because if you think you are a victim then you are.
From: Samuel Zalanga <szal...@bethel.edu>
To: "usaafric...@googlegroups.com" <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2015 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: FW: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Dr. Ben Carson on the race issue in the US
kenneth harrow
Sep 28, 2015, 8:46:25 PM9/28/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
samuel
are you imagining that one cannot be a black person and a conservative republican?
or an "authentic" black person and a conservative republican? or that the only space for black people here is with the dems? or what? there are many radical people on the list who would argue republicans and democrats are equal failures for real black needs, that they prop up american dominant values, etc
as for "authenticity," one day when i am less busy i will happily post my own strong distaste for that term, but that is another day. (in the old existential days, it was another matter)
ken
are you imagining that one cannot be a black person and a conservative republican?
or an "authentic" black person and a conservative republican? or that the only space for black people here is with the dems? or what? there are many radical people on the list who would argue republicans and democrats are equal failures for real black needs, that they prop up american dominant values, etc
as for "authenticity," one day when i am less busy i will happily post my own strong distaste for that term, but that is another day. (in the old existential days, it was another matter)
ken
Anunoby, Ogugua
Sep 29, 2015, 1:53:17 AM9/29/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Why not opportunist?
oa
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
oa
Anunoby, Ogugua
Sep 29, 2015, 1:53:30 AM9/29/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
It is possible to be an “authentic” black person and a conservative republican (CR). It is difficult to be though.
The CR position on many issues of public interest is based on the denial or rejection of the history of race relations in the country, the evident consequences on black people, and how both of the above have helped to shaped the reality of race relations and the injustices that continue. The CR’s rhetoric on the law and race based disadvantage of black people for example, creates a false narrative that demonizes correct depiction of the reality as race-bating. Black people who try to be CRs are “forced” to not only accept the denials and rejections but to go further- profess and defend them rather vociferously. They claim for example that there is no difference between the killing an unarmed black man in the street by a police officer who is sworn to protect him and is well compensated, and the killing of an unarmed black man in a neighborhood shoot-out by criminal black men. Most people of sound mind paying attention know what the truth is.
Samuel Zalanga
Sep 29, 2015, 2:45:01 AM9/29/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
What you have said can be subsumed under what I was trying to explain. My analysis begs the question of whether there is one thing that can be called authentic black or authentic conservative republican. democrat or whatever in our modern world. I am by no means trying to limit the discussion to democrats or republicans; only that the discussion was about Ben Carson.
If you note carefully, it is obvious that I do not feel truly satisfied with the project of modernity itself, let alone the democrats and republicans. In this case, I frame the issue in far broader context than you are. Whether Democrats win or Republicans, Weber's analysis of the crisis of modernity remains intact.
In any case, did not Marx say that in a capitalist society where the fundamentals are the survival of the capitalist system, all that happens when when elections take place is for the oppressed to be given the opportunity to choose who will oppress them in the next four years. And did he not say in the Communist Manifesto that the state in modern capitalist society is a committee for managing the common affairs of the bourgeois? This kind of discussion transcend Democrats or Republicans.
But more importantly, there is a huge literature long ago that represented a serious debate in the New Left Review about the nature of the state in capitalist society between Ralph Miliband and Nicos Poulantzas. The debate was on whether the state in capitalist society can be understood by looking at the people who administer it or aspire to (functionaries, and e.g., Ben Carson) or by understanding the structure of the state and the structure of capitalist society in which the capitalist state is embedded (Althusser).
In contrast to your suggestion, I see nothing radical in someone in this forum arriving at the conclusion that both democrats and republicans are the same. Even the Vice President of Moral Majority, Ed Dobson, said in a book and documentary series titled "With God on Our Side: The Rise of the Religious Right" that the White House whether Democrat or Republican is the same. They ask you to help them win an election as a minister and then after that, they give you a "dog biscuit" to keep you busy until the next election when they do what they want to do and then ask you to come and close the meeting with a prayer.
If someone who participated in partisan politics like Ed Dobson on grounds of certain conviction is so observant and honest to make this observation, what more of a trained scholars or informed persons? Even if one has sympathy for the Democrats, did not Bill Clinton moved the party to the right? And did he not quote someone at a convention t hat in order to live like Republicans, vote Democrat. Does this not suggest that the bourgeois lifestyle is the ideal whether democrat and republican? Indeed, in the literature, often republicans support supply-side policies, while democrats support demand-side policies. But all these is debate about means to a particular substance: a bourgeois capitalist society as the Nirvana that all humans should aspire as Rostow states in his theory: "The Age of High Mass Consumption." One feels sorry for such a civilization even though he is a part of it. This is all what western civilization or modernity is aspiring for. If you were to watch the six-hour documentary on neoliberalism and globalization titled: "The Commanding Heights" you see that Clinton's campaign is featured in it. H e moved the party to the right.
The documentary is also a good empirical test of whether the best way to understand what is going on in modern electoral politics is to first start by looking or analyzing the people who manage the state or by understanding the structure of the society and the state and then examine how that shape the individuals aspiring to the state office or managing the state office (i.e., state functionaries). Even Alexis de Tocqueville argues that in America, we deceive ourselves about freedom but the parameters or the space within which you can exercise such freedom is determined by the system in a manner that is not necessarily just and fair; and if you go beyond the boundaries, even if by law you are free, you will be ostracized by the society and become useless because people will avoid you. That is the punishment.
My analysis is not just applicable to Ben Carson if properly understood; it is about a culture, a civilization, and a system, which produced Ben Carson. It applies to myself, to Democrats, to anyone living in this modern world. Have I fully figured who I am? Nope!
Kant argues that there is a deep side to ourselves that we ourselves cannot reach. We can only interpret ourselves through situations we find ourselves in. Is there a limit to such situations? I did not know about myself as much as when I came to the U.S. and got certain opportunities and put put myself in certain situations that helped me to understand myself better. But I have not fully figured out who I am even now because I will encounter certain situations in the future that will help me figure out through interpretation who I am. . We did not know at the beginning that Moses was a very temperamental person until he found himself in a situation that helped us to see that part of himself.
It may appear that it is easier for some of us to be realistic because we do not have wild imaginations or aspirations. Anyone who desires to be a U.S. president must have an ego that is outside the normal curve in the first place, whether that person is Black, White, Religious or not, etc. it does not matter. And there are many distortions that come with such an ego. I think the Farida the woman who was in the past in charge of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, once said that anyone who decides to aspire for an office in Nigeria should be examined in a hospital..
The idea of making the skin color of a person the only significant thing about his or her identity in the world of neoliberal globalization is in my view limiting. On the surface the odds of being a Democrat if you are Black is higher than being a Republican. But the same thing is true of Whites, i.e.,. the odds of being a Democrat is lower compared to being a republican as per the General Social Survey data.
If you note carefully, it is obvious that I do not feel truly satisfied with the project of modernity itself, let alone the democrats and republicans. In this case, I frame the issue in far broader context than you are. Whether Democrats win or Republicans, Weber's analysis of the crisis of modernity remains intact.
In any case, did not Marx say that in a capitalist society where the fundamentals are the survival of the capitalist system, all that happens when when elections take place is for the oppressed to be given the opportunity to choose who will oppress them in the next four years. And did he not say in the Communist Manifesto that the state in modern capitalist society is a committee for managing the common affairs of the bourgeois? This kind of discussion transcend Democrats or Republicans.
But more importantly, there is a huge literature long ago that represented a serious debate in the New Left Review about the nature of the state in capitalist society between Ralph Miliband and Nicos Poulantzas. The debate was on whether the state in capitalist society can be understood by looking at the people who administer it or aspire to (functionaries, and e.g., Ben Carson) or by understanding the structure of the state and the structure of capitalist society in which the capitalist state is embedded (Althusser).
In contrast to your suggestion, I see nothing radical in someone in this forum arriving at the conclusion that both democrats and republicans are the same. Even the Vice President of Moral Majority, Ed Dobson, said in a book and documentary series titled "With God on Our Side: The Rise of the Religious Right" that the White House whether Democrat or Republican is the same. They ask you to help them win an election as a minister and then after that, they give you a "dog biscuit" to keep you busy until the next election when they do what they want to do and then ask you to come and close the meeting with a prayer.
If someone who participated in partisan politics like Ed Dobson on grounds of certain conviction is so observant and honest to make this observation, what more of a trained scholars or informed persons? Even if one has sympathy for the Democrats, did not Bill Clinton moved the party to the right? And did he not quote someone at a convention t hat in order to live like Republicans, vote Democrat. Does this not suggest that the bourgeois lifestyle is the ideal whether democrat and republican? Indeed, in the literature, often republicans support supply-side policies, while democrats support demand-side policies. But all these is debate about means to a particular substance: a bourgeois capitalist society as the Nirvana that all humans should aspire as Rostow states in his theory: "The Age of High Mass Consumption." One feels sorry for such a civilization even though he is a part of it. This is all what western civilization or modernity is aspiring for. If you were to watch the six-hour documentary on neoliberalism and globalization titled: "The Commanding Heights" you see that Clinton's campaign is featured in it. H e moved the party to the right.
The documentary is also a good empirical test of whether the best way to understand what is going on in modern electoral politics is to first start by looking or analyzing the people who manage the state or by understanding the structure of the society and the state and then examine how that shape the individuals aspiring to the state office or managing the state office (i.e., state functionaries). Even Alexis de Tocqueville argues that in America, we deceive ourselves about freedom but the parameters or the space within which you can exercise such freedom is determined by the system in a manner that is not necessarily just and fair; and if you go beyond the boundaries, even if by law you are free, you will be ostracized by the society and become useless because people will avoid you. That is the punishment.
My analysis is not just applicable to Ben Carson if properly understood; it is about a culture, a civilization, and a system, which produced Ben Carson. It applies to myself, to Democrats, to anyone living in this modern world. Have I fully figured who I am? Nope!
Kant argues that there is a deep side to ourselves that we ourselves cannot reach. We can only interpret ourselves through situations we find ourselves in. Is there a limit to such situations? I did not know about myself as much as when I came to the U.S. and got certain opportunities and put put myself in certain situations that helped me to understand myself better. But I have not fully figured out who I am even now because I will encounter certain situations in the future that will help me figure out through interpretation who I am. . We did not know at the beginning that Moses was a very temperamental person until he found himself in a situation that helped us to see that part of himself.
It may appear that it is easier for some of us to be realistic because we do not have wild imaginations or aspirations. Anyone who desires to be a U.S. president must have an ego that is outside the normal curve in the first place, whether that person is Black, White, Religious or not, etc. it does not matter. And there are many distortions that come with such an ego. I think the Farida the woman who was in the past in charge of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, once said that anyone who decides to aspire for an office in Nigeria should be examined in a hospital..
The idea of making the skin color of a person the only significant thing about his or her identity in the world of neoliberal globalization is in my view limiting. On the surface the odds of being a Democrat if you are Black is higher than being a Republican. But the same thing is true of Whites, i.e.,. the odds of being a Democrat is lower compared to being a republican as per the General Social Survey data.
If you, however, select only Blacks as sample from the General Social Survery (GSS) data sample, and ask SPSS to calculate the odds of someone from within the Black community being a republican or democrat based on income, you will find out that within the Black community, the rich are more republican than the middle and lower classes among Blacks. This comes out clearly in the Black sample data, which reinforces some solid theoretical insights on social inequality and class interests in the sociological literature. But this insight is not clearly articulated when you just use the general sample data set i.e., such a nuance does not come out. But if you just select Blacks as the sample you will find out that rich Black people have higher chance of identifying themselves as or supporting the Republican party. Is that a question of skin color? Nope! So what does being Black means under these circumstances? My point is growing out of empirical study and not just a general claim.
In my view, it is about their social and material interest, even though they are black, which is sometimes mediated by certain variables depending on social contexts.
With regard to U.S. value system and how it oppresses others in other countries, it is hard for a Black person to succeed in the U.S. without at least being normative about American cultural values, which are not as benevolent as you yourself suggested. I have no disagreement with you about that. However, there are economic evidence that Black people in the U.S. still benefit from some of the benefits of American capitalism which often succeeds at the expense of other social groups in other parts of the world. So you can see here that oppression is not just about America in a general way, but even we African immigrants are being indirectly subsidized by the U.S. capitalist system of exploitation of other groups abroad through unequal exchange. Often when you go to the store and buy things that are made overseas, the cheap or bargain prices we get is not some miracle from heaven. There is an explanation for that. This means that many who are otherwise minorities in the U.S., including those of us who are African immigrants are now part of that empire because we benefit from the unequal exchange. Let us not be carried away by our idealistic academic analysis on this forum.
With regard to the focus on being Black, African immigrant kids do not get along well with African American kids even though they are all Black. This is a reflection of what people experience in the culture. It is not inherent in the skin color per se. One African American minister while we were at a meeting of African Americans and African immigrants students at the University of Minnesota made an important point that I will never forget. We were trying to promote greater understanding and unity between the two groups because the relationship was very tensed. I was lucky my roommate was African American and for two decades we still remain friends and visit each other. And we grew in our relationship and in the process I learned a lot about African Americans as he has learned about Africa.
But the African American Minister at the meeting said, we (African immigrants) have to understand that they (African Americans) grew up in a culture where they were not taught to love or appreciate themselves because of who they are, and so for many who internalized this kind of oppressive socialization even at the subliminal level, it is difficult to appreciate someone who comes from a continent that is given negative coverage in the media by the same dominant culture that taught them to hate themselves, and not to appreciate people (Africans) who look like them (African Americans). He was not saying this was something that will continue forever but he was trying to explain the complexity and dynamics of the situation. It happens even in Nigeria. You can grow up in a particular region and be told to not appreciate people in another region. Some African American families raise their kids with an African self esteem but some teach their kids to avoid Africans or anything African. And there are good reasons. Some African immigrants though Black tell their children to avoid African Americans for so many reasons. Some do things differently and there are contexts for all that. To explain all this we have to go beyond merely having black skin color. At best, that should just be a starting point.
We are all Black but when you go deep into understanding how we behave, you then begin to realize that to account for variation, as important as it is, we cannot reify skin color and accord it an autonomous existence, and uniform meaning outside the complex, contingent, and concrete dynamics of history, space and time i.e., context. Because there are nuances in contexts, it complicates the situation and that is why for me, Ben Carson is a Black person but because I never reify blackness, I need to go beyond his skin color to understand what his blackness represents in concrete historical context and circumstances of the American marketplace; instead of assuming that because he is black he must automatically be this or that. This is almost like essentializing if pushed too far. I have attended a meeting where I encountered dedicated African American atheists; but they are Black. Many people will find that strange but it is context.
People can come from the same ethnic group for instance but within the group there can be as much variation (i.e., within group variation) as there is "between group variation" i.e., differences between that ethnic group and others. Nigeria for instance as many other countries because of group competition have focused on inequality between groups and regions while ignoring inequality within groups and regions. We have to look at both types of variations and understand them in contexts, and which of the two will be more powerful at any one time as an explanation is often an empirical question.
To get a full account of what is happening we have to synthesize our understanding of the situation by combining both types of variations and how they account for a person's personality, cosmology, worldview, and choices.
In my view, it is about their social and material interest, even though they are black, which is sometimes mediated by certain variables depending on social contexts.
With regard to U.S. value system and how it oppresses others in other countries, it is hard for a Black person to succeed in the U.S. without at least being normative about American cultural values, which are not as benevolent as you yourself suggested. I have no disagreement with you about that. However, there are economic evidence that Black people in the U.S. still benefit from some of the benefits of American capitalism which often succeeds at the expense of other social groups in other parts of the world. So you can see here that oppression is not just about America in a general way, but even we African immigrants are being indirectly subsidized by the U.S. capitalist system of exploitation of other groups abroad through unequal exchange. Often when you go to the store and buy things that are made overseas, the cheap or bargain prices we get is not some miracle from heaven. There is an explanation for that. This means that many who are otherwise minorities in the U.S., including those of us who are African immigrants are now part of that empire because we benefit from the unequal exchange. Let us not be carried away by our idealistic academic analysis on this forum.
With regard to the focus on being Black, African immigrant kids do not get along well with African American kids even though they are all Black. This is a reflection of what people experience in the culture. It is not inherent in the skin color per se. One African American minister while we were at a meeting of African Americans and African immigrants students at the University of Minnesota made an important point that I will never forget. We were trying to promote greater understanding and unity between the two groups because the relationship was very tensed. I was lucky my roommate was African American and for two decades we still remain friends and visit each other. And we grew in our relationship and in the process I learned a lot about African Americans as he has learned about Africa.
But the African American Minister at the meeting said, we (African immigrants) have to understand that they (African Americans) grew up in a culture where they were not taught to love or appreciate themselves because of who they are, and so for many who internalized this kind of oppressive socialization even at the subliminal level, it is difficult to appreciate someone who comes from a continent that is given negative coverage in the media by the same dominant culture that taught them to hate themselves, and not to appreciate people (Africans) who look like them (African Americans). He was not saying this was something that will continue forever but he was trying to explain the complexity and dynamics of the situation. It happens even in Nigeria. You can grow up in a particular region and be told to not appreciate people in another region. Some African American families raise their kids with an African self esteem but some teach their kids to avoid Africans or anything African. And there are good reasons. Some African immigrants though Black tell their children to avoid African Americans for so many reasons. Some do things differently and there are contexts for all that. To explain all this we have to go beyond merely having black skin color. At best, that should just be a starting point.
We are all Black but when you go deep into understanding how we behave, you then begin to realize that to account for variation, as important as it is, we cannot reify skin color and accord it an autonomous existence, and uniform meaning outside the complex, contingent, and concrete dynamics of history, space and time i.e., context. Because there are nuances in contexts, it complicates the situation and that is why for me, Ben Carson is a Black person but because I never reify blackness, I need to go beyond his skin color to understand what his blackness represents in concrete historical context and circumstances of the American marketplace; instead of assuming that because he is black he must automatically be this or that. This is almost like essentializing if pushed too far. I have attended a meeting where I encountered dedicated African American atheists; but they are Black. Many people will find that strange but it is context.
People can come from the same ethnic group for instance but within the group there can be as much variation (i.e., within group variation) as there is "between group variation" i.e., differences between that ethnic group and others. Nigeria for instance as many other countries because of group competition have focused on inequality between groups and regions while ignoring inequality within groups and regions. We have to look at both types of variations and understand them in contexts, and which of the two will be more powerful at any one time as an explanation is often an empirical question.
To get a full account of what is happening we have to synthesize our understanding of the situation by combining both types of variations and how they account for a person's personality, cosmology, worldview, and choices.
With regard to authenticity, yes, there is much to say about it. People may ridicule it but I remember even Jurgen Habermas argues that for genuine dialogue to take place, which he feels is necessary in shaping discourse in the public square, there are six conditions that need to be fulfilled. One of them is that people must mean what they say i.e., authenticity. He is saying that in a genuine dialogue what people say must be what they truly mean, and nothing more, else, the dialogue will not go anywhere i.e., just a waste of time.
So no matter how discredited, there is still that desire in humans that when they encounter someone, they want to know the "real person" the authentic person, when many layers are trappings are removed, or at least they want to be as close to that reality as the person is. Otherwise they can as well abandon the dialogue or communication. One thing that Habermas notes can distort authenticity in dialogue or communication is inequality in power relationship, which can of course distort dialogue as the powerless people will feel afraid to say what they really mean unless if they are given a guarantee of safe passage. The powerless can engage in sycophancy, which distorts authenticity in communication..
So no matter how discredited, there is still that desire in humans that when they encounter someone, they want to know the "real person" the authentic person, when many layers are trappings are removed, or at least they want to be as close to that reality as the person is. Otherwise they can as well abandon the dialogue or communication. One thing that Habermas notes can distort authenticity in dialogue or communication is inequality in power relationship, which can of course distort dialogue as the powerless people will feel afraid to say what they really mean unless if they are given a guarantee of safe passage. The powerless can engage in sycophancy, which distorts authenticity in communication..
Thank you.
Samuel
Okechukwu Ukaga
Sep 29, 2015, 7:09:32 AM9/29/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Folks:
At the risk of appearing like I am defending Dr. Ben Carson, I have to note that I took some time to watch the video clip below and no where in that clip he did say say what he is quoted as saying. So unless he there is another video or substantiated claim of him confirming that claim, I would say that there is at-least reasonable doubt that he said “Before Obama, people barely noticed skin color; that goes back 150 years. Blacks were happy and grateful for what we were given.”
Hence, borrowing from Prof. Boloji Aluko, I would say that this is most likely a case of the news being embellished negatively.
On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 5:08 AM, Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com> wrote:
It's outrageous that a Black man could see and if he wasn't a brain surgeon you'd think that he had a screw or two loose, up there. And this man wants to be elected president of the United States?
“Before Obama, people barely noticed skin color; that goes back 150 years. Blacks were happy and grateful for what we were given.” (Benjamin Carson)
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Okechukwu Ukaga, MBA, PhD
Executive Director, Northeast Minnesota Sustainable Development Partnership
Executive Director, Northeast Minnesota Sustainable Development Partnership
Extension Professor, University of Minnesota Extension
Adjunct Professor, Geography Department, University of Minnesota - Duluth
114 Chester Park, 31 W. College Street, Duluth, MN 55812
Website: www.rsdp.umn.edu Phone: 218-341-6029
Book Review Editor, Environment, Development and Sustainability (www.springer.com/10668),
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." - Richard Buckminster Fuller
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete." - Richard Buckminster Fuller
kenneth harrow
Sep 29, 2015, 10:36:09 AM9/29/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
i mostly agree ogugua; you have to add that there are black people
who have faith in the american dream, in capitalism as the best
system, and that they can work within the system for uplift....
k
k
Anunoby, Ogugua
Sep 29, 2015, 3:28:28 PM9/29/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Yes there are. Faith in the American dream, in capitalism… is not the problem…. Many people do. It is just that the default objective of many CRs, perhaps a majority of them, seems to be the maintenance and sustenance of the ascendency of one community in society at the expense
of others. They seem to have a sense of entitlement to special privileges that are based in part on historical injustices. They would rather give than share.
kenneth harrow
Sep 29, 2015, 4:05:39 PM9/29/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
agreed
kwame zulu shabazz
Sep 29, 2015, 8:00:06 PM9/29/15
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
Carson has said many ignorant things, like comparing Obamacare to slavery. This specific quote, however, is disputed. I'm not sure he actually said it. Whatever the case, very few African Americans take him seriously.
kzs
kzs
kenneth harrow
Sep 29, 2015, 10:56:09 PM9/29/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
i googled it, and guess what?
In October, Dr. Ben Carson told conservative radio talk show host Mark Levin that: "Before Obama, people barely noticed skin color; that goes back 150 years. Blacks were happy and grateful for what we were given."
Vigorously opposed to Obamacare, calling it "the worst thing that
has happened in this nation since slavery?" Check. Think America
is "very much like Nazi Germany?" Check. Think Michael Brown may
have caused his own murder? Check. If you need an opinion or a
controversial remark from an African American conservative, Dr.
Ben Carson has a quiver full. If you haven't yet heard of Dr. Ben
Carson, that's probably because you're not watching the Fox News
Channel often enough.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/08/1350278/-Dr-Ben-Carson-African-American-Conservative-Hits-All-the-Tea-Party-s-Wacky-High-Notes
On 9/29/15 7:54 PM, kwame zulu shabazz
wrote:
“Before Obama, people barely noticed skin color; that goes back 150 years. Blacks were happy and grateful for what we were given.”
kwame zulu shabazz
Sep 29, 2015, 11:36:28 PM9/29/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Hi Ken,
I am aware of the Kos quote. However, Daily Kos sources an alleged interview that Carson did with Mark Levin. I was unable to confirm any interview with Levin that includes the quote in question.
kzs
--
Listserv moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To subscribe to this group, send an email to USAAfricaDial...@googlegroups.com
Current archives at http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
Early archives at http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/usaafricadialogue/nt8nc6YeFzg/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
kenneth harrow
Sep 30, 2015, 5:07:06 AM9/30/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
well, i guess not everything on the internet is to be trusted!
it's enough to have heard his other pronouncements, anyway.
politicians' talk is worth nothing, as far as i am concerned. this particular campaign is uglier than usual, mostly thanks to trump and to the extreme right-wingers who have gained so much play in recent years.
k
it's enough to have heard his other pronouncements, anyway.
politicians' talk is worth nothing, as far as i am concerned. this particular campaign is uglier than usual, mostly thanks to trump and to the extreme right-wingers who have gained so much play in recent years.
k
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "USA Africa Dialogue Series" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to usaafricadialo...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Anunoby, Ogugua
Sep 30, 2015, 5:07:07 AM9/30/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
The concern about Carson’s public statements it seems to me, is not that African Americans will take him seriously. It is rather that his statements may be reinforcing many negative conceptions of African Americans in other communities. Carson it seems, is not playing to African Americans. They are not his target audience. He is playing to his party’s primary (elections) voters.
oa
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kwame zulu shabazz
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2015 6:54 PM
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Dr. Ben Carson on the race issue in the US
Carson has said many ignorant things, like comparing Obamacare to slavery. This specific quote, however, is disputed. I'm not sure he actually said it. Whatever the case, very few African Americans take him seriously.
--
Chambi Chachage
Sep 30, 2015, 5:55:19 AM9/30/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
KZS, I thought you'll at least engage with the brother's response, his black experience mirrors those of many blacks:
I have stated in the past that Obamacare is the worst thing to occur in our country since slavery. Why did I make such a strong statement? Obviously, I recognize the horrors of slavery. My roots have been traced back to Africa, and I am aware of some horrendous deeds inflicted on my ancestors in this country.
The purpose of the statement was not to minimize the most evil institution in American history, but rather to draw attention to a profound shift of power from the people to the government.
I think this shift is beginning to wrench the nation from one centered on the rights of individual citizens to one that accepts the right of the government to control even the most essential parts of our lives. This strikes a serious blow to the concept of freedom that gave birth to this nation.
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2015 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Dr. Ben Carson on the race issue in the US
Ifedioramma E. Nwana
Sep 30, 2015, 11:36:52 AM9/30/15
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Yes America may control the most powerful military, just like the lion is the king of the forest. But what kills the lion; little, little things (germs & poisons) that destroy it from inside and which it picks from its food or injury. America should watch those policies and happenings (right to abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriages, bestiality, money, racism etc.) now being protected with Government authority and the concept of the so called Political Correctness (PC). Do not destroy America. It can still be saved to continue to serve as the bastion of democracy. As a free citizen of the world we are interested.
Ifedioramma Eugene-Mary Nwana
kwame zulu shabazz
Oct 1, 2015, 9:51:08 PM10/1/15
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
OA,
Agree that Carson plays to GOP voters (bigots/racists). But the shifting demographics dont favor the GOP. But I think the GOP is also thinking that their chances are better if they can peel off a percentage of the Black social conservative Democrat vote.
kzs
Agree that Carson plays to GOP voters (bigots/racists). But the shifting demographics dont favor the GOP. But I think the GOP is also thinking that their chances are better if they can peel off a percentage of the Black social conservative Democrat vote.
kzs
kwame zulu shabazz
Oct 2, 2015, 6:21:29 AM10/2/15
to USA Africa Dialogue Series, cham...@yahoo.com
Brother Chambi,
I am baffled that you apparently believe gibberish "explanation" by Carson is somehow worthy of response. You can't make sense of what he actually said, Obamacare is the quote, "worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery."
You can't explain that away. You can only apologize for making a stupid statement. But, then again, Carson says lots of stupid things. Having read some of his earlier writing and listened to his talks, I am doubtful that he wrote the reply you have posted. I suspect that it was ghost-written for damage control and I doubt that it reflects his actual feelings. Authorship aside, the original statement was clear and consistent with a voluminous collection of asinine utterances by Carson. Dr. Carson equates Obamacare to government dependency--a tired, racist GOP canard. And, by a gross distortion of actual history, the horrors of US slavery are conflated with social welfare. Of course Carson somehow failed to notice that Obamacare is utilized by many Americans, not just Black Americans and is not very different from GOP Romneycare in Massachusetts or government-sponsored care Europe.
kzs
I am baffled that you apparently believe gibberish "explanation" by Carson is somehow worthy of response. You can't make sense of what he actually said, Obamacare is the quote, "worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery."
You can't explain that away. You can only apologize for making a stupid statement. But, then again, Carson says lots of stupid things. Having read some of his earlier writing and listened to his talks, I am doubtful that he wrote the reply you have posted. I suspect that it was ghost-written for damage control and I doubt that it reflects his actual feelings. Authorship aside, the original statement was clear and consistent with a voluminous collection of asinine utterances by Carson. Dr. Carson equates Obamacare to government dependency--a tired, racist GOP canard. And, by a gross distortion of actual history, the horrors of US slavery are conflated with social welfare. Of course Carson somehow failed to notice that Obamacare is utilized by many Americans, not just Black Americans and is not very different from GOP Romneycare in Massachusetts or government-sponsored care Europe.
kzs
kwame zulu shabazz
Oct 2, 2015, 6:21:29 AM10/2/15
to USA Africa Dialogue Series, ien...@yahoo.com
Eugene-Mary,
America was never a "bastion of democracy." The indigenous people were annihilated, Africans were enslaved and Jim Crowed until the 1960s, numerous sovereign nations were/are overthrown or otherwise undermined by the USA. Sex with animals is illegal in much of the USA and there instance wherein sex with animals is "protected with government authority."
kzs
America was never a "bastion of democracy." The indigenous people were annihilated, Africans were enslaved and Jim Crowed until the 1960s, numerous sovereign nations were/are overthrown or otherwise undermined by the USA. Sex with animals is illegal in much of the USA and there instance wherein sex with animals is "protected with government authority."
kzs
Cornelius Hamelberg
Oct 2, 2015, 4:10:17 PM10/2/15
to USA Africa Dialogue Series, cham...@yahoo.com
Re- Brother Ben Carson and the “worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery“
16 million enfranchised Americans may now benefit from
affordable care: ObamaCare
Perhaps, he would like to replace Obama Care with something better?
From my poor man perspective it is inconceivable that Carson would condemn Obama Care and by the same token Carson thereby passes judgement on the principles and ideals that undergird e.g. the Swedish Health Care System –a Social Health Care System which is available to all and second to none when it comes to showing real concern about Citizens’ Health and of course, globally. (In the month of September alone, 24, 000 refugees asked for asylum in Sweden …
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages