#9 Things The Rich Don't Want You To Know About Taxes
5979 Dead, 1122 since 1/20/09
[Zeppnote: For those who don't get the images, most are charts that
solidly back up the statements made here. Just click the link above]
9 Things The Rich Don't Want You To Know About Taxes
lede_3723_pigILLUSTRATION: berkleyillustration.etsy.com
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Tags: Taxes
For three decades we have conducted a massive economic experiment,
testing a theory known as supply-side economics. The theory goes like
this: Lower tax rates will encourage more investment, which in turn
will mean more jobs and greater prosperity—so much so that tax
revenues will go up, despite lower rates. The late Milton Friedman,
the libertarian economist who wanted to shut down public parks because
he considered them socialism, promoted this strategy. Ronald Reagan
embraced Friedman’s ideas and made them into policy when he was
elected president in 1980.
For the past decade, we have doubled down on this theory of
supply-side economics with the tax cuts sponsored by President George
W. Bush in 2001 and 2003, which President Obama has agreed to continue
for two years.
You would think that whether this grand experiment worked would be
settled after three decades. You would think the practitioners of the
dismal science of economics would look at their demand curves and the
data on incomes and taxes and pronounce a verdict, the way Galileo and
Copernicus did when they showed that geocentrism was a fantasy because
Earth revolves around the sun (known as heliocentrism). But economics
is not like that. It is not like physics with its laws and arithmetic
with its absolute values.
Tax policy is something the framers left to politics. And in politics,
the facts often matter less than who has the biggest bullhorn.
The Mad Men who once ran campaigns featuring doctors extolling the
health benefits of smoking are now busy marketing the dogma that tax
cuts mean broad prosperity, no matter what the facts show.
As millions of Americans prepare to file their annual taxes, they do
so in an environment of media-perpetuated tax myths. Here are a few
points about taxes and the economy that you may not know, to consider
as you prepare to file your taxes. (All figures are
inflation-adjusted.)
Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: AUTHOR ANALYSIS OF SAEZ & PIKETTY TABLE
A6; 2008 DOLLARS
1. Poor Americans do pay taxes.
Gretchen Carlson, the Fox News host, said last year “47 percent of
Americans don’t pay any taxes.” John McCain and Sarah Palin both said
similar things during the 2008 campaign about the bottom half of
Americans.
Ari Fleischer, the former Bush White House spokesman, once said “50
percent of the country gets benefits without paying for them.”
Actually, they pay lots of taxes—just not lots of federal income
taxes.
Data from the Tax Foundation show that in 2008, the average income for
the bottom half of taxpayers was $15,300.
This year the first $9,350 of income is exempt from taxes for singles
and $18,700 for married couples, just slightly more than in 2008. That
means millions of the poor do not make enough to owe income taxes.
But they still pay plenty of other taxes, including federal payroll
taxes. Between gas taxes, sales taxes, utility taxes and other taxes,
no one lives tax-free in America.
When it comes to state and local taxes, the poor bear a heavier burden
than the rich in every state except Vermont, the Institute on Taxation
and Economic Policy calculated from official data. In Alabama, for
example, the burden on the poor is more than twice that of the top 1
percent. The one-fifth of Alabama families making less than $13,000
pay almost 11 percent of their income in state and local taxes,
compared with less than 4 percent for those who make $229,000 or more.
Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: MEDICARE TAX DATABASE; CENSUS
2. The wealthiest Americans don’t carry the burden.
This is one of those oft-used canards. Sen. Rand Paul, the tea party
favorite from Kentucky, told David Letterman recently that “the
wealthy do pay most of the taxes in this country.”
The Internet is awash with statements that the top 1 percent pays,
depending on the year, 38 percent or more than 40 percent of taxes.
It’s true that the top 1 percent of wage earners paid 38 percent of
the federal income taxes in 2008 (the most recent year for which data
is available). But people forget that the income tax is less than half
of federal taxes and only one-fifth of taxes at all levels of
government.
Social Security, Medicare and unemployment insurance taxes (known as
payroll taxes) are paid mostly by the bottom 90 percent of wage
earners. That’s because, once you reach $106,800 of income, you pay
no more for Social Security, though the much smaller Medicare tax
applies to all wages. Warren Buffett pays the exact same amount of
Social Security taxes as someone who earns $106,800.
Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: SOCIAL SECURITY MEDICARE TAX DATABASE
3. In fact, the wealthy are paying less taxes.
The Internal Revenue Service issues an annual report on the 400
highest income-tax payers. In 1961, there were 398 taxpayers who made
$1 million or more, so I compared their income tax burdens from that
year to 2007.
Despite skyrocketing incomes, the federal tax burden on the richest
400 has been slashed, thanks to a variety of loopholes, allowable
deductions and other tools. The actual share of their income paid in
taxes, according to the IRS, is 16.6 percent. Adding payroll taxes
barely nudges that number.
Compare that to the vast majority of Americans, whose share of their
income going to federal taxes increased from 13.1 percent in 1961 to
22.5 percent in 2007.
(By the way, during seven of the eight George W. Bush years, the IRS
report on the top 400 taxpayers was labeled a state secret, a policy
that the Obama administration overturned almost instantly after his
inauguration.)
Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: AUTHOR CALCULATIONS FROM IRS
4. Many of the very richest pay no current income taxes at all.
John Paulson, the most successful hedge-fund manager of all, bet
against the mortgage market one year and then bet with Glenn Beck in
the gold market the next. Paulson made himself $9 billion in fees in
just two years. His current tax bill on that $9 billion? Zero.
Congress lets hedge-fund managers earn all they can now and pay their
taxes years from now.
In 2007, Congress debated whether hedge-fund managers should pay the
top tax rate that applies to wages, bonuses and other compensation for
their labors, which is 35 percent. That tax rate starts at about
$300,000 of taxable income—not even pocket change to Paulson, but
almost 12 years of gross pay to the median-wage worker.
The Republicans and a key Democrat, Sen.
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Charles Schumer of New York, fought to keep the tax rate on hedge-fund
managers at 15 percent, arguing that the profits from hedge funds
should be considered capital gains, not ordinary income, which got a
lot of attention in the news.
What the news media missed is that hedge-fund managers don’t even pay
15 percent. At least, not currently. So long as they leave their
money, known as “carried interest,” in the hedge fund, their taxes are
deferred. They only pay taxes when they cash out, which could be
decades from now for younger managers. How do these hedge-fund
managers get money in the meantime? By borrowing against the carried
interest, often at absurdly low rates—currently about 2 percent.
Lots of other people live tax-free, too. I have Donald Trump’s tax
records for four years early in his career. He paid no taxes for two
of those years. Big real-estate investors enjoy tax-free living under
a 1993 law President Clinton signed. It lets “professional”
real-estate investors use paper losses like depreciation on their
buildings against any cash income, even if they end up with negative
incomes like Trump.
Frank and Jamie McCourt, who own the Los Angeles Dodgers, have not
paid any income taxes since at least 2004, their divorce case
revealed. Yet they spent $45 million one year alone. How? They just
borrowed against Dodger ticket revenue and other assets. To the IRS,
they look like paupers.
In Wisconsin, Terrence Wall, who unsuccessfully sought the Republican
nomination for U.S. Senate in 2010, paid no income taxes on as much as
$14 million of recent income, his disclosure forms showed. Asked about
his living tax-free while working people pay taxes, he had a simple
response: Everyone should pay less.
Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: AUTHOR CALCULATIONS FROM IRS
5. And (surprise!) since Reagan, only the wealthy have gained
significant income.
The Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute and similar conservative
marketing organizations tell us relentlessly that lower tax rates will
make us all better off.
“When tax rates are reduced, the economy’s growth rate improves and
living standards increase,” according to Daniel J. Mitchell, an
economist at Heritage until he joined Cato. He says that supply-side
economics is “the simple notion that lower tax rates will boost work,
saving, investment and entrepreneurship.”
When Reagan was elected president, the top marginal tax rate (the tax
rate paid on the last dollar of income earned) was 70 percent. He cut
it to 50 percent and then 28 percent starting in 1987. It was raised
by George H.W. Bush and Clinton, and then cut by George W. Bush. The
top rate is now 35 percent.
Since 1980, when Reagan won the presidency promising prosperity
through tax cuts, the average income of the vast majority—the bottom
90 percent of Americans—has increased a meager $303, or 1 percent. Put
another way, for each dollar people in the vast majority made in 1980,
in 2008 their income was up to $1.01.
Those at the top did better. The top 1 percent’s average income more
than doubled to $1.1 million, according to an analysis of tax data by
economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez. The really rich, the top
one-tenth of 1 percent, each enjoyed almost $4 in 2008 for each dollar
in 1980.
The top 300,000 Americans now enjoy almost as much income as the
bottom 150 million, the data show.
Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: MARTIN SULLIVAN, TAX ANALYSTS ECONOMIST,
FROM DATA AT BEA.GOV
6. When it comes to corporations, the story is much the same—less
taxes.
Corporate profits in 2008, the latest year for which data are
available, were $1,830 billion, up almost 12 percent from $1,638.7
billion in 2000. Yet, even though corporate tax rates have not been
cut, corporate income-tax revenues fell to $230 billion from $249
billion—an 8 percent decline, thanks to a number of loopholes. The
official 2010 profit numbers are not added up and released by the
government, but the amount paid in corporate taxes is: In 2010 they
fell further, to $191 billion—a decline of more than 23 percent
compared with 2000.
Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: IRS
7. Some corporate tax breaks destroy jobs.
Despite all the noise that America has the world’s second-highest
corporate tax rate, the actual taxes paid by corporations are falling
because of the growing number of loopholes and companies shifting
profits to tax havens like the Cayman Islands.
And right now America’s corporations are sitting on close to $2
trillion in cash that is not being used to build factories, create
jobs or anything else, but acts as an insurance policy for managers
unwilling to take the risk of actually building the businesses they
are paid so well to run. That cash hoard, by the way, works out to
nearly $13,000 per taxpaying household.
A corporate tax rate that is too low actually destroys jobs. That’s
because a higher tax rate encourages businesses (who don’t want to pay
taxes) to keep the profits in the business and reinvest, rather than
pull them out as profits and have to pay high taxes.
The 2004 American Jobs Creation Act, which passed with bipartisan
support, allowed more than 800 companies to bring profits that were
untaxed but overseas back to the United States. Instead of paying the
usual 35 percent tax, the companies paid just 5.25 percent.
The companies said bringing the money home—“repatriating” it, they
called it—would mean lots of jobs. Sen. John Ensign, the Nevada
Republican, put the figure at 660,000 new jobs.
Pfizer, the drug company, was the biggest beneficiary. It brought home
$37 billion, saving $11 billion in taxes. Almost immediately it
started firing people. Since the law took effect, Pfizer has let
40,000 workers go. In all, it appears that at least 100,000 jobs were
destroyed.
Now Congressional Republicans and some Democrats are gearing up again
to pass another tax holiday, promoting a new Jobs Creation Act. It
would affect 10 times as much money as the 2004 law.
Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: IRS TABLE 1.4 IN 2008 DOLLARS
8. Republicans like taxes too.
President Reagan signed into law 11 tax increases, targeted at people
down the income ladder. His administration and the Washington press
corps called the increases “revenue enhancers.” Reagan raised Social
Security taxes so high that by the end of 2008, the government had
collected more than $2 trillion in surplus tax.
George W. Bush signed a tax increase, too, in 2006, despite his
written ironclad pledge never to raise taxes on anyone. It raised
taxes on teenagers by requiring kids up to age 17, who earned money,
to pay taxes at their parents’ tax rate, which would almost always be
higher than the rate they would otherwise pay. It was a story that ran
buried inside The New York Times one Sunday, but nowhere else.
In fact, thanks to Republicans, one in three Americans will pay higher
taxes this year than they did last year.
First, some history. In 2009, President Obama pushed his own tax
cut—for the working class. He persuaded Congress to enact the Making
Work Pay Tax Credit. Over the two years 2009 and 2010, it saved single
workers up to $800 and married heterosexual couples up to $1,600, even
if only one spouse worked. The top 5 percent or so of taxpayers were
denied this tax break.
The Obama administration called it “the biggest middle-class tax cut”
ever. Yet last December the Republicans, poised to regain control of
the House of Representatives, killed Obama’s Making Work Pay Credit
while extending the Bush tax cuts for two more years—a policy Obama
agreed to.
By doing so, Congressional Republican leaders increased taxes on a
third of Americans, virtually all of them the working poor, this year.
As a result, of the 155 million households in the tax system, 51
million will pay an average of $129 more this year. That is $6.6
billion in higher taxes for the working poor, the nonpartisan Tax
Policy Center estimated.
In addition, the Republicans changed the rate of workers’ FICA
contributions, which finances half of Social Security. The result:
If you are single and make less than $20,000, or married and less than
$40,000, you lose under this plan. But the top 5 percent, people who
make more than $106,800, will save $2,136 ($4,272 for two-career
couples).
Credits: WW CHART — SOURCE: MEDICARE TAX DATABASE; CENSUS.GOV
9. Other countries do it better.
We measure our economic progress, and our elected leaders debate tax
policy, in terms of a crude measure known as gross domestic product.
The way the official statistics are put together, each dollar spent
buying solar energy equipment counts the same as each dollar spent
investigating murders.
We do not give any measure of value to time spent rearing children or
growing our own vegetables or to time off for leisure and community
service.
And we do not measure the economic damage done by shocks, such as
losing a job, which means not only loss of income and depletion of
savings, but loss of health insurance, which a Harvard Medical School
study found results in 45,000 unnecessary deaths each year.
Compare this to Germany, one of many countries with a smarter tax
system and smarter spending policies.
Germans work less, make more per hour and get much better parental
leave than Americans, many of whom get no fringe benefits such as
health care, pensions or even a retirement savings plan. By many
measures the vast majority live better in Germany than in America.
To achieve this, unmarried Germans on average pay 52 percent of their
income in taxes. Americans average 30 percent, according to the
Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
At first blush the German tax burden seems horrendous. But in Germany
(as well as in Britain, France, Scandinavia, Canada, Australia and
Japan), tax-supported institutions provide many of the things
Americans pay for with after-tax dollars. Buying wholesale rather than
retail saves money.
A proper comparison would take the 30 percent average tax on American
workers and add their out-of-pocket spending on health care, college
tuition and fees for services, and compare that with taxes that the
average German pays. Add it all up and the combination of tax and
personal spending is roughly equal in both countries, but with a large
risk of catastrophic loss in America, and a tiny risk in Germany.
Americans take on $85 billion of debt each year for higher education,
while college is financed by taxes in Germany and tuition is cheap to
free in other modern countries. While soaring medical costs are a key
reason that since 1980 bankruptcy in America has increased 15 times
faster than population growth, no one in Germany or the rest of the
modern world goes broke because of accident or illness. And child
poverty in America is the highest among modern countries—almost twice
the rate in Germany, which is close to the average of modern
countries.
On the corporate tax side, the Germans encourage reinvestment at home
and the outsourcing of low-value work, like auto assembly, and German
rules tightly control accounting so that profits earned at home cannot
be made to appear as profits earned in tax havens.
Adopting the German system is not the answer for America. But crafting
a tax system that benefits the vast majority, reduces risks, provides
universal health care and focuses on diplomacy rather than militarism
abroad (and at home) would be a lot smarter than what we have now.
Here is a question to ask yourself: We started down this road with
Reagan’s election in 1980 and upped the ante in this century with
George W. Bush.
How long does it take to conclude that a policy has failed to fulfill
its promises? And as you think of that, keep in mind George
Washington. When he fell ill his doctors followed the common wisdom of
the era. They cut him and bled him to remove bad blood. As
Washington’s condition grew worse, they bled him more. And like the
mantra of tax cuts for the rich, they kept applying the same treatment
until they killed him.
Luckily we don’t bleed the sick anymore, but we are bleeding our
government to death.
Credits: WW CHART — SOURCES: OMB; CENSUS.GOV; BEA.GOV; CALCULATIONS BY
AUTHOR
David Cay Johnston is a columnist for tax.com and teaches the tax,
property and regulatory law of the ancient world at Syracuse
University College of Law and Whitman School of Management. He has
also been called the “de facto chief tax enforcement officer of the
United States” because his reporting in The New York Times shut down
many tax dodges and schemes, just two of them valued by Congress at
$260 billion. Johnston received a 2001 Pulitzer Prize for exposing tax
loopholes and inequities. He wrote two bestsellers on taxes, Perfectly
Legal and Free Lunch. Later this year, Johnston will be out with a new
book, The Fine Print, revealing how big business, with help from
politicians, abuses plain English to rob you blind.
--
Not dead, in jail or a slave? Thank a liberal!
Read my essays at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/zepps_essays/
"So called payroll taxes aren't taxes at all" -- Steve Canyon, trying to explain
why millionaires don't actually pay less taxes than median income families.
ZNUYBV
wrote:
> http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-17350-9_things_the_rich_dont_wa...
>
> "So called payroll taxes aren't taxes at all" -- Steve Canyon, trying to explain
> why millionaires don't actually pay less taxes than median income families.
A wise man knows that his taxes are seldom used for the things that he
wants. Often they are used to prevent him from getting them.
Phlip
> > why millionaires don't actually pay less taxes than median income families.
>
> A wise man knows that his taxes are seldom used for the things that he
> wants. Often they are used to prevent him from getting them.
Didn't read it, right?
5979 Dead, 1122 since 1/20/09
The only known cure is to leave any country civilized enough to have
taxes and set up shop in a cave on a small island somewhere.
I would say "Be sure to write", but of course, no post office...
Steve
<de...@dead.net> wrote:
>http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-17350-9_things_the_rich_dont_want_you_to_know_about_taxes.html
>[Zeppnote: For those who don't get the images, most are charts that
>solidly back up the statements made here. Just click the link above]
<chuckle> Like I'm going to read that piece of leftist garbage...
Ray Fischer
Short attention span. Rightard.
Need I say more?
Oh, wait, two more words: Donald Trump.
--
Ray Fischer | Mendacracy (n.) government by lying
rfis...@sonic.net | The new GOP ideal
Ray Fischer
"Don't confuse me with the facts!"
Christopher Helms
> On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:35:33 -0700, "5979 Dead, 1122 since 1/20/09"
>
> >http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-17350-9_things_the_rich_dont_wa...
> >[Zeppnote: For those who don't get the images, most are charts that
> >solidly back up the statements made here. Just click the link above]
>
> <chuckle> Like I'm going to read that piece of leftist garbage...
"Leftist" is usually Rightspeak for "Accurate."
Christopher Helms
> Steve <stevencan...@yahooooo.com> wrote:
> >On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:35:33 -0700, "5979 Dead, 1122 since 1/20/09"
>
> >>http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-17350-9_things_the_rich_dont_wa...
> >>[Zeppnote: For those who don't get the images, most are charts that
> >>solidly back up the statements made here. Just click the link above]
>
> ><chuckle> Like I'm going to read that piece of leftist garbage...
>
> "Don't confuse me with the facts!"
Since the top 400 people in this country make more than the next 150
million people combined, maybe they should be paying most of the taxes
instead of whining about how tough they've got it.
Steve
Imagination and fantasy are the leftist's new "reality."
5979 Dead, 1122 since 1/20/09
Steve's hoping if he defends them, they'll be grateful and toss him a
milkbone.
--
Information has never been so free. Even in authoritarian countries
information networks are helping people discover new facts and making
governments more accountable.- US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton,
January 21, 2010
Steve
1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Apr 2011 03:15:28 -0700, Christopher Helms wrote:
>
>> On Apr 17, 1:33 am, rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>>> Steve <stevencan...@yahooooo.com> wrote:
>>> >On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:35:33 -0700, "5979 Dead, 1122 since 1/20/09"
>>> ><d...@dead.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>http://www.wweek.com/portland/
>article-17350-9_things_the_rich_dont_wa...
>>> >>[Zeppnote: For those who don't get the images, most are charts that
>>> >>solidly back up the statements made here. Just click the link above]
>>>
>>> ><chuckle> Like I'm going to read that piece of leftist garbage...
>>>
>>> "Don't confuse me with the facts!"
>>
>>
>> Since the top 400 people in this country make more than the next 150
>> million people combined, maybe they should be paying most of the taxes
>> instead of whining about how tough they've got it.
Actually, they do pay most of the taxes.
>Steve's hoping if he defends them, they'll be grateful and toss him a
>milkbone.
<ROTFL> Actually, it's only the leftist losers like David (Zepp)
Jamieson that are hoping to latch on to other people's stuff. As for
me, I'm more than happy with the stuff I've got.
It's OK for Jamieson to be bitter.. Really, it is, after all, he's
not going to get that free health care to go along with his welfare
and food stamps.
Ray Fischer
(AP) WASHINGTON - As millions of procrastinators scramble to meet
Monday's tax filing deadline, ponder this: The super rich pay a
lot less taxes than they did a couple of decades ago, and nearly
half of U.S. households pay no income taxes at all.
The Internal Revenue Service tracks the tax returns with the 400
highest adjusted gross incomes each year. The average income on
those returns in 2007, the latest year for IRS data, was nearly
$345 million. Their average federal income tax rate was 17
percent, down from 26 percent in 1992.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_no_taxes
tv
> Steve <stevencan...@yahooooo.com> wrote:
> >On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:35:33 -0700, "5979 Dead, 1122 since 1/20/09"
>
> >>http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-17350-9_things_the_rich_dont_wa...
> >>[Zeppnote: For those who don't get the images, most are charts that
> >>solidly back up the statements made here. Just click the link above]
>
> ><chuckle> Like I'm going to read that piece of leftist garbage...
>
> "Don't confuse me with the facts!"
>
> --
> Ray Fischer | Mendacracy (n.) government by lying
You are easily confused.
Ernst Blofeld
wrote:
> >> >>[Zeppnote: For those who don't get the images, most are charts that
> >> >>solidly back up the statements made here. Just click the link above]
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/264833/wrong-wrong-and-wrong-about-taxes-kevin-d-williamson
--
I wanted to have something nice to say about this article, “Nine
Things the Rich Don’t Want You to Know about Taxes,” because it
reiterates a few points that I think are important: that the poor
really do pay a lot more in taxes than we often account for in our
political discussions, and that our tax code is a fairly horrible,
counterproductive mess, a paradise for rent-seekers and influence-
buyers.
Unfortunately, it’s a mess from the beginning — a surprisingly
thorough mess. I’m not one to be bowled over by credentials, but the
author, David Cay Johnston, is identified as a former New York Times
reporter, a professor at Syracuse, and a winner of the Pulitzer Prize.
I expect a guy with that background to be wrong about everything in
the big picture, but I expect him to be careful in the details.
He gets off on the wrong foot:
For three decades we have conducted a massive economic experiment,
testing a theory known as supply-side economics. The theory goes like
this: Lower tax rates will encourage more investment, which in turn
will mean more jobs and greater prosperity — so much so that tax
revenues will go up, despite lower rates. The late Milton Friedman,
the libertarian economist who wanted to shut down public parks because
he considered them socialism, promoted this strategy. Ronald Reagan
embraced Friedman’s ideas and made them into policy when he was
elected president in 1980.
How many factual errors does that paragraph contain? Let’s sum them
up: 1. Supply-side economics is not synonymous with the Laffer Curve,
the theory that tax cuts produce higher revenue (which they usually
don’t.) 2. Milton Friedman was not a supply-sider and was skeptical of
their tax claims, famously proclaiming that if you cut taxes and
revenue goes up, then you haven’t cut them enough. 3. Milton Friedman
did not believe in privatizing city parks or consider them socialism;
the “neighborhood effect,” he argued, in many cases created a
legitimate public good that could be publicly provided. (This earned
him the wrath of Murray Rothbard and other to-the-wall libertarians.)
No raving anti-socialist, Friedman famously supported government
funding of education — he just wanted it done through vouchers, in a
marketplace with consumer choice. 4. Milton Friedman did not “support
this strategy” on taxes; he expected tax cuts to produce unpopular
deficits that would act as a restraint on future spending. (He kind of
blew that call, no?) 5. Ronald Reagan did not put many of Milton
Friedman’s ideas into practice, unfortunately.
So, the only two facts in that lead that seem to be true are: 1.
Milton Friedman was a libertarian economist; 2. Ronald Reagan was
president in the 1980s
--
5979 Dead, 1122 since 1/20/09
> On Apr 17, 6:18 am, "5979 Dead, 1122 since 1/20/09" <d...@gone.com>
> wrote:
>> >> >>[Zeppnote: For those who don't get the images, most are charts
>> >> >>that solidly back up the statements made here. Just click the
>> >> >>link above]
>
> http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/264833/wrong-wrong-and-wrong-about-
taxes-kevin-d-williamson
> --
> I wanted to have something nice to say about this article, “Nine Things
> the Rich Don’t Want You to Know about Taxes,” because it reiterates a
> few points that I think are important: that the poor really do pay a lot
> more in taxes than we often account for in our political discussions,
> and that our tax code is a fairly horrible, counterproductive mess, a
> paradise for rent-seekers and influence- buyers.
Decided to just lie about what it actually said, did you? The working
poor pay a higher percentage in overall taxes than do the rich.
Now, you can take the moron route like Steve, and try and claim that FICA
isn't really a tax, and presumably state taxes, licences and fees really
aren't taxes either.
Are you dumb enough to take that route?
>
> Unfortunately, it’s a mess from the beginning — a surprisingly thorough
> mess. I’m not one to be bowled over by credentials, but the author,
> David Cay Johnston, is identified as a former New York Times reporter, a
> professor at Syracuse, and a winner of the Pulitzer Prize. I expect a
> guy with that background to be wrong about everything in the big
> picture, but I expect him to be careful in the details.
>
In other words, you couldn't think of a rebuttal, so you're just going to
attack ad hominum. Pathetic.
--
Not Sure
They do, dipshit. Better luck next time.
Steve
1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>
>Now, you can take the moron route like Steve, and try and claim that FICA
>isn't really a tax, and presumably state taxes, licences and fees really
>aren't taxes either.
>
Social Security contributions aren't really a tax. They are simply
payments made toward the purchase of future benefits and leftists
insist that they shouldn't have to pay for their benefits. They want
other people to pay for their benefits for them.
People pay into Social Security in order to secure a retirement
benefit, IOW, they're buying a service rather than paying a tax.
Everyone that pays the same amount in will get about the same
benefit out. Taxes don't work like that.
If paying for specific goods or services that you personally
receive from a government was a tax, my water bill would be
a tax. So would my truck's licence fee and my driver's licence
fee too.
5979 Dead, 1122 since 1/20/09
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:50:10 +0000 (UTC), "5979 Dead, 1122 since
> 1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Now, you can take the moron route like Steve, and try and claim that
>>FICA isn't really a tax, and presumably state taxes, licences and fees
>>really aren't taxes either.
>>
>>
> Social Security contributions aren't really a tax...[snip]
I'm sure Andrew Breitbart is a true inspiration to you, Stevie. When he
gets his tail caught in a crack, as he often does, he tries to lie and
bluster his way out, too, and unintentionally amuses many liberals.
Keep up the good work, Steve.
Steve
1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:05:08 -0400, Steve wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:50:10 +0000 (UTC), "5979 Dead, 1122 since
>> 1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Now, you can take the moron route like Steve, and try and claim that
>>>FICA isn't really a tax, and presumably state taxes, licences and fees
>>>really aren't taxes either.
>>>
>>>
>> Social Security contributions aren't really a tax...[snip]
>
>I'm sure Andrew Breitbart is a true inspiration to you, Stevie. When he
>gets his tail caught in a crack, as he often does, he tries to lie and
>bluster his way out, too, and unintentionally amuses many liberals.
>
>Keep up the good work, Steve.
Zepp, unable to refute the following, snips it hoping that it will go
away. Not a chance
Ray Fischer
>On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:50:10 +0000 (UTC), "5979 Dead, 1122 since
>1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Now, you can take the moron route like Steve, and try and claim that FICA
>>isn't really a tax, and presumably state taxes, licences and fees really
>>aren't taxes either.
>>
>
>Social Security contributions aren't really a tax. They are simply
>payments made toward the purchase of future benefits and leftists
>insist that they shouldn't have to pay for their benefits.
Rightard rule #1: lie, lie again, lie more, lie about lying.
>People pay into Social Security in order to secure a retirement
>benefit, IOW, they're buying a service rather than paying a tax.
All taxes pay for services, dumbass rightard.
>Everyone that pays the same amount in will get about the same
>benefit out.
What a truly stupid claim.
--
Ray Fischer | Mendacracy (n.) government by lying
5995 Dead, 1138 since 1/20/09
But it sure is fun watching him try to make it true by repetition.
Phlip
> >>out.
>
> > What a truly stupid claim.
>
> But it sure is fun watching him try to make it true by repetition.
Undocumented guest labor paid $1.8 billion in taxes last year, and
will get almost nothing out of it. Except, of course, random
deportations & splitting families up & such, which will leave the rest
of us with more tax burden.
Exxon, GE, & BofA paid zero taxes, and will get all kinds of free
services - roads, wires, police protection, airports, etc.
So the less you pay, the more you get!
Steve
1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:32:34 +0000, Ray Fischer wrote:
>
>> Steve <steven...@yahooooo.com> wrote:
>>>On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:50:10 +0000 (UTC), "5979 Dead, 1122 since
>>>1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Now, you can take the moron route like Steve, and try and claim that
>>>>FICA isn't really a tax, and presumably state taxes, licences and fees
>>>>really aren't taxes either.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Social Security contributions aren't really a tax. They are simply
>>>payments made toward the purchase of future benefits and leftists insist
>>>that they shouldn't have to pay for their benefits.
>>
>> Rightard rule #1: lie, lie again, lie more, lie about lying.
>>
>>>People pay into Social Security in order to secure a retirement benefit,
>>>IOW, they're buying a service rather than paying a tax.
>>
>> All taxes pay for services, dumbass rightard.
>>
>>>Everyone that pays the same amount in will get about the same benefit
>>>out.
>>
>> What a truly stupid claim.
>
>But it sure is fun watching him try to make it true by repetition.
>
>
We've seen what Jamieson knows about taxes. See below:
Zepp's knowledge of investments and taxes is, shall we say, "wanting..."
"And why are dividends on 401Ks considered capital gains? (They are,
when it comes time to cash the 401K in, but Steve wouldn't know that)."
David (Zepp) Jamieson Tue, 29 Jul 2008
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/25d56714cbea3db9?hl=en
Canyon Note: When you cash in a 401K, it's taxed as ordinary income
not as capital gains.
"If Nevermore tries paying cap gains with a 1040, he'll be in jail soon
enough. Funny. I though a big rich guy like him could afford a tax
accountant. It's obvious he isn't smart enough to do his own taxes.'
--David B.(Zepp) Jamieson, Dec 3, 2005
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/30fdaff423e2029b?hl=en&
Canyon Note: Irony anyone?
Steve
wrote:
>> >>Everyone that pays the same amount in will get about the same benefit
>> >>out.
>>
>> > What a truly stupid claim.
>>
>> But it sure is fun watching him try to make it true by repetition.
>
>Undocumented guest labor paid $1.8 billion in taxes last year, and
>will get almost nothing out of it.
Nobody made them come here. Nobody makes them stay.
People pay into Social Security in order to secure a retirement
benefit, IOW, they're buying a service rather than paying a tax.
Everyone that pays the same amount in will get about the same
5995 Dead, 1138 since 1/20/09
And if right wingers can come up with an excuse to cheat you, they will,
whether they actually gain anything or not. They'll do it just to be
assholes.
Steve
1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:41:00 -0700, Phlip wrote:
>
>>> >>Everyone that pays the same amount in will get about the same benefit
>>> >>out.
>>>
>>> > What a truly stupid claim.
>>>
>>> But it sure is fun watching him try to make it true by repetition.
>>
>> Undocumented guest labor paid $1.8 billion in taxes last year, and will
>> get almost nothing out of it. Except, of course, random deportations &
>> splitting families up & such, which will leave the rest of us with more
>> tax burden.
>>
>> Exxon, GE, & BofA paid zero taxes, and will get all kinds of free
>> services - roads, wires, police protection, airports, etc.
>>
>> So the less you pay, the more you get!
>
>And if right wingers can come up with an excuse to cheat you, they will,
>whether they actually gain anything or not. They'll do it just to be
>assholes.
Aaawwww, poor David (Zepp) Jamieson is feeling cheated again...
5995 Dead, 1138 since 1/20/09
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:33:21 +0000 (UTC), "5995 Dead, 1138 since
> 1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:41:00 -0700, Phlip wrote:
>>
>>>> >>Everyone that pays the same amount in will get about the same
>>>> >>benefit out.
>>>>
>>>> > What a truly stupid claim.
>>>>
>>>> But it sure is fun watching him try to make it true by repetition.
>>>
>>> Undocumented guest labor paid $1.8 billion in taxes last year, and
>>> will get almost nothing out of it. Except, of course, random
>>> deportations & splitting families up & such, which will leave the rest
>>> of us with more tax burden.
>>>
>>> Exxon, GE, & BofA paid zero taxes, and will get all kinds of free
>>> services - roads, wires, police protection, airports, etc.
>>>
>>> So the less you pay, the more you get!
>>
>>And if right wingers can come up with an excuse to cheat you, they will,
>>whether they actually gain anything or not. They'll do it just to be
>>assholes.
>
> Aaawwww...
Case in point.
Ray Fischer
>On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:35:26 +0000 (UTC), "5995 Dead, 1138 since
>1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:32:34 +0000, Ray Fischer wrote:
>>
>>> Steve <steven...@yahooooo.com> wrote:
>>>>On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:50:10 +0000 (UTC), "5979 Dead, 1122 since
>>>>1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Now, you can take the moron route like Steve, and try and claim that
>>>>>FICA isn't really a tax, and presumably state taxes, licences and fees
>>>>>really aren't taxes either.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Social Security contributions aren't really a tax. They are simply
>>>>payments made toward the purchase of future benefits and leftists insist
>>>>that they shouldn't have to pay for their benefits.
>>>
>>> Rightard rule #1: lie, lie again, lie more, lie about lying.
>>>
>>>>People pay into Social Security in order to secure a retirement benefit,
>>>>IOW, they're buying a service rather than paying a tax.
>>>
>>> All taxes pay for services, dumbass rightard.
>>>
>>>>Everyone that pays the same amount in will get about the same benefit
>>>>out.
>>>
>>> What a truly stupid claim.
>>
>>But it sure is fun watching him try to make it true by repetition.
>
>We've seen what Jamieson knows about taxes.
More than you, moron.
Steve
1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 20:49:08 -0400, Steve wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:33:21 +0000 (UTC), "5995 Dead, 1138 since
>> 1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:41:00 -0700, Phlip wrote:
>>>
>>>>> >>Everyone that pays the same amount in will get about the same
>>>>> >>benefit out.
>>>>>
>>>>> > What a truly stupid claim.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it sure is fun watching him try to make it true by repetition.
>>>>
>>>> Undocumented guest labor paid $1.8 billion in taxes last year, and
>>>> will get almost nothing out of it. Except, of course, random
>>>> deportations & splitting families up & such, which will leave the rest
>>>> of us with more tax burden.
>>>>
>>>> Exxon, GE, & BofA paid zero taxes, and will get all kinds of free
>>>> services - roads, wires, police protection, airports, etc.
>>>>
>>>> So the less you pay, the more you get!
>>>
>>>And if right wingers can come up with an excuse to cheat you, they will,
>>>whether they actually gain anything or not. They'll do it just to be
>>>assholes.
>>
>> Aaawwww...
>
>Case in point.
Leftists like Jamieson have a need to be seen as victims. It actually
helps them with their poor self images if they can blame their
failures on someone else.
Man_of_Mind
>
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 01:48:23 +0000 (UTC), "5995 Dead, 1138 since 1/20/09" wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 20:49:08 -0400, Sleaze <sevenc...@tampabay.rr.com> whined:
>>
>>> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:33:21 +0000 (UTC), "5995 Dead, 1138 since 1/20/09" wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:41:00 -0700, Phlip wrote:
>>>>> Undocumented guest labor paid $1.8 billion in taxes last year, and
>>>>> will get almost nothing out of it. Except, of course, random
>>>>> of us with more tax burden.
>>>>>
>>>>> services - roads, wires, police protection, airports, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the less you pay, the more you get!
>>>>
>>>> And if right wingers can come up with an excuse to cheat you, they will,
>>>> whether they actually gain anything or not. They'll do it just to be
>>>> assholes.
>>>
>>> Aaawwww...
>>
>> Case in point.
>
> Leftists like Jamieson have a need to be seen as victims
Speaking of 'self-image', the way you whine about the
person that disagrees with your pathetic self-centered
malignant narcissistic personality disorder is telling..
--And says more about yourself than you realize..
5995 Dead, 1138 since 1/20/09
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 01:48:23 +0000 (UTC), "5995 Dead, 1138 since
> 1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 20:49:08 -0400, Steve wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:33:21 +0000 (UTC), "5995 Dead, 1138 since
>>> 1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:41:00 -0700, Phlip wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> >>Everyone that pays the same amount in will get about the same
>>>>>> >>benefit out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > What a truly stupid claim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it sure is fun watching him try to make it true by repetition.
>>>>>
>>>>> Undocumented guest labor paid $1.8 billion in taxes last year, and
>>>>> will get almost nothing out of it. Except, of course, random
>>>>> deportations & splitting families up & such, which will leave the
>>>>> rest of us with more tax burden.
>>>>>
>>>>> Exxon, GE, & BofA paid zero taxes, and will get all kinds of free
>>>>> services - roads, wires, police protection, airports, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the less you pay, the more you get!
>>>>
>>>>And if right wingers can come up with an excuse to cheat you, they
>>>>will, whether they actually gain anything or not. They'll do it just
>>>>to be assholes.
>>>
>>> Aaawwww...
>>
>>Case in point.
>
> Leftists like Jamieson ...
And most centrists, too.
Right wing whack jobs, not so much.
Lich Nutz
> --And says more about yourself than you realize..
===========================================================
Oklahoma Space Alliance News
by Syd Henderson
I found a downloadable model of the Cassini space probe at the
Cassini web site at the Jet Propulsion Lab
(http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cassini/model/) and Kurt agreed to construct
it. In addition, Kurt (and possibly Tim) will create flyers. Kurt will
try to construct balloon rockets.
We will also provide paper, crayons, colored pencils, etc., and
invite visitors to design a space colony.
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/education/buildapapermodel/
Build a Paper Model
This free model is designed for anyone who wishes to learn more about
the Cassini Spacecraft, although it is probably not
appropriate for children less than about ten years of age to build
unassisted.
--
I like to play with rockets and balloons and do Playdo terraforming.
Stevie Nichts
Pardon my OT, but...
> Oklahoma Space Alliance News
> by Syd Henderson
>
> I found a downloadable model of the Cassini space probe at the
> Cassini web site at the Jet Propulsion Lab
> (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cassini/model/) and Kurt agreed to construct
> it. In addition, Kurt (and possibly Tim) will create flyers. Kurt will
> try to construct balloon rockets.
> We will also provide paper, crayons, colored pencils, etc., and
> invite visitors to design a space colony.
>
> http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/education/buildapapermodel/
>
> Build a Paper Model
>
> This free model is designed for anyone who wishes to learn more about
> the Cassini Spacecraft, although it is probably not
> appropriate for children less than about ten years of age to build
> unassisted.
... NASA has a very cool online simulation of the Solar System:
Steve
1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
Triple-chin Jamieson like to pretend that he knows about Centrists..
Fact is that no centrist would even speak to a leftist clown like him.
"No plane hit the Pentagon. I don’t know what did"
--David B.(Zepp) Jamieson
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/39d98c910d32047b?hl=en&
"The theory I've heard most often is that it was either a drone, or
perhaps a SAM."
--David B.(Zepp) Jamieson on what hit the Pentagon
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.society.liberalism/msg/7473934a15900249?hl=en&
Canyon note: Sam stands for "surface to air missile." it's a little rocket
fired from the ground to hit aircraft.
Steve
Transcript of Lochner admitting to being an alcoholic and a
dead-beat dad which leads to him being desperate to
manufacture unsupported nonsense (ie, <chuckle>)"something,
anything to attack me personally."
His problem here, of course, is that I have proof
whereas he has nothing.
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:30:55 -0600
Canyon: "did the court let you settle for pennies on the
dollar?"
Lochner "Not that I'm aware of.. Did you have any other
petty remarks? "
Canyon: "did they see that your kids were better off if
you weren't in the picture? "
Lochner "Why don't you go and find out for yourself, cartoon
hero..
Oh, that's right, you can't find anything past that, no
child custody filings, no further hearings on the
settled account and discontinuence.. Poor little
cartoon hero..
You really are looking for something, anything to
attack me personally, with malice aforethought..
That'll be just another in a long series of mistakes
you've made today.."
Canyon: "...say, are you attending those AA meetings regularly?"
Lochner "Sure am, anything else you'd like to desperately try to
attack me personally with, or would you prefer to stop
now before you get into much more trouble?
--Or, do you just have nothing left to lose?"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.fan.rush-limbaugh/msg/7171c5a4bd29de81?hl=en
Man_of_Mind
>
> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 09:39:39 -0500, Man_of_Mind was again laughing at:
>>
>> On 4/24/2011 5:12 AM, Sleaze <sevenc...@tampabay.rr.com> whined:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 01:48:23 +0000 (UTC), "5995 Dead, 1138 since 1/20/09" wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 20:49:08 -0400, Sleaze <sevenc...@tampabay.rr.com> whined:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:33:21 +0000 (UTC), "5995 Dead, 1138 since 1/20/09" wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:41:00 -0700, Phlip wrote:
>>>>>>> Undocumented guest labor paid $1.8 billion in taxes last year, and
>>>>>>> will get almost nothing out of it. Except, of course, random
>>>>>>> deportations& splitting families up& such, which will leave the rest
>>>>>>> of us with more tax burden.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Exxon, GE,& BofA paid zero taxes, and will get all kinds of free
>>>>>>> services - roads, wires, police protection, airports, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So the less you pay, the more you get!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And if right wingers can come up with an excuse to cheat you, they will,
>>>>>> whether they actually gain anything or not. They'll do it just to be
>>>>>> assholes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Aaawwww...
>>>>
>>>> Case in point.
>>>
>>> Leftists like Jamieson have a need to be seen as victims
>>
>> Speaking of 'self-image', the way you whine about the
>> person that disagrees with your pathetic self-centered
>> malignant narcissistic personality disorder is telling..
>>
>> --And says more about yourself than you realize..
>
> Transcript
Still attacking the person, like the malignant narcissist
you really are, eh? It must really suck being you, "steve"..
--Because your belief in a failed ideology is unsupportable by facts..
Lich Nutz
> --Because your belief in a failed ideology is unsupportable by facts..
>
>
Oklahoma Space Alliance News
by Syd Henderson
I found a downloadable model of the Cassini space probe at the
Cassini web site at the Jet Propulsion Lab
(http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/cassini/model/) and Kurt agreed to construct
it. In addition, Kurt (and possibly Tim) will create flyers. Kurt will
try to construct balloon rockets.
We will also provide paper, crayons, colored pencils, etc., and
invite visitors to design a space colony.
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/education/buildapapermodel/
Build a Paper Model
This free model is designed for anyone who wishes to learn more about
the Cassini Spacecraft, although it is probably not
appropriate for children less than about ten years of age to build
unassisted.
ah...@no-spam-panix.com
> On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:50:10 +0000 (UTC), "5979 Dead, 1122 since
> 1/20/09" <de...@gone.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Now, you can take the moron route like Steve, and try and claim that FICA
>>isn't really a tax, and presumably state taxes, licences and fees really
>>aren't taxes either.
>>
>
> Social Security contributions aren't really a tax. They are simply
> payments made toward the purchase of future benefits and leftists
> insist that they shouldn't have to pay for their benefits. They want
> other people to pay for their benefits for them.
OF course they are a tax. And a grossly unfair one, as current retirees
are getting a very free ride, and the current young are paying far more
than they should for the promised benefits.
It is a nasty mess.
> People pay into Social Security in order to secure a retirement
> benefit, IOW, they're buying a service rather than paying a tax.
They because the government forces them to at the point of a gun.
--
Andrew Hall
(Now reading Usenet in alt.fan.dan-quayle...)
=======================================================================
I am the future.
-- Vice President Dan Quayle, 10/18/88
(reported in Esquire, 8/92)