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For instance, the number of groups vs. the amount of data or the standard deviation within the groups vs. the standard deviation of all the data.
These concerns are best analyzed empirically using Stan’s diagnostics.
On Feb 1, 2017, at 4:15 PM, Jonah Gabry <jga...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 3:49:08 PM UTC-5, John Hall wrote:For instance, the number of groups vs. the amount of data or the standard deviation within the groups vs. the standard deviation of all the data.It's not so much the amount of data but rather how informative the data is about the parameters. You can have a small dataset that is informative enough to really pin down parameters and you can have large datasets where the data doesn't provide too much information about the parameters. If you want to see this in action in a simple example then you can play around with the eight schools example. If you leave the number of data points at 8 but modify y (or sigma) to make the data more or less informative about the parameters then which parameterization to use will depend on how you scale y (or sigma). In all cases the amount of data remains the same.Jonah--
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Diagnostics are good, but I'm also trying to develop some sort of intuition surrounding the issue. Thus, Jonah's advice to play around with sigma in the 8 schools problem was a good one.The degree of pooling seems to matter quite a bit. In this case, looking at something like the average sigma vs. the mean value of tau gave a better indication of whether the centered or the non-centered would be better than just looking at the average of the sigmas. But this probably only works because each group has one member. So probably more generally, I would refer to the Table 18.4 on page 394 of Gelman and Hill. The more pooling there is, the more reason to use the non-centered parameterization.
For instance, if I multiply sigma by 100, then the non-centered has significantly more n_eff than centered. And the reverse if I divide by 100. This is similar to the figure from the paper in that the lower standard deviation favors the centered approach.On a somewhat related topic, Stan's documentation could do a little better on page 325 with a heading of non-centered parameterization and the text that follows is:
When there is a lot of data, such a hierarchical model can be made much more efficient
by shifting the data’s correlation with the parameters to the hyperparameters. Similar
to the funnel example, this will be much more efficient in terms of effective sample
size when there is not much data (see (Betancourt and Girolami, 2013)).which is not exactly the easiest to follow. And honestly I think there is a typo here. The paragraph before actually makes pretty clear to use the centered parameterization when there is a lot of data (which I wish I had read before). This starts out talking about "when there is a lot of data," which is the opposite of the use case of non-centered parameterization. I would re-write this as
When there is not much data, a non-centered parameterization can be much more efficient in terms of effective sample size by shifting the data’s correlation with the parameters to the hyperparameters. (see (Betancourt and Girolami, 2013)).
On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Michael Betancourt <betan...@gmail.com> wrote:
These concerns are best analyzed empirically using Stan’s diagnostics.
On Feb 1, 2017, at 4:15 PM, Jonah Gabry <jga...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 3:49:08 PM UTC-5, John Hall wrote:For instance, the number of groups vs. the amount of data or the standard deviation within the groups vs. the standard deviation of all the data.It's not so much the amount of data but rather how informative the data is about the parameters. You can have a small dataset that is informative enough to really pin down parameters and you can have large datasets where the data doesn't provide too much information about the parameters. If you want to see this in action in a simple example then you can play around with the eight schools example. If you leave the number of data points at 8 but modify y (or sigma) to make the data more or less informative about the parameters then which parameterization to use will depend on how you scale y (or sigma). In all cases the amount of data remains the same.Jonah--
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You're right about that paragraph in the manual. Thanks for catching that. I can add this to the GitHub issue for edits to the manual for the next release.Jonah
On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 6:43 PM John Hall <john.mic...@gmail.com> wrote:
Diagnostics are good, but I'm also trying to develop some sort of intuition surrounding the issue. Thus, Jonah's advice to play around with sigma in the 8 schools problem was a good one.The degree of pooling seems to matter quite a bit. In this case, looking at something like the average sigma vs. the mean value of tau gave a better indication of whether the centered or the non-centered would be better than just looking at the average of the sigmas. But this probably only works because each group has one member. So probably more generally, I would refer to the Table 18.4 on page 394 of Gelman and Hill. The more pooling there is, the more reason to use the non-centered parameterization.
For instance, if I multiply sigma by 100, then the non-centered has significantly more n_eff than centered. And the reverse if I divide by 100. This is similar to the figure from the paper in that the lower standard deviation favors the centered approach.On a somewhat related topic, Stan's documentation could do a little better on page 325 with a heading of non-centered parameterization and the text that follows is:
When there is a lot of data, such a hierarchical model can be made much more efficient
by shifting the data’s correlation with the parameters to the hyperparameters. Similar
to the funnel example, this will be much more efficient in terms of effective sample
size when there is not much data (see (Betancourt and Girolami, 2013)).which is not exactly the easiest to follow. And honestly I think there is a typo here. The paragraph before actually makes pretty clear to use the centered parameterization when there is a lot of data (which I wish I had read before). This starts out talking about "when there is a lot of data," which is the opposite of the use case of non-centered parameterization. I would re-write this as
When there is not much data, a non-centered parameterization can be much more efficient in terms of effective sample size by shifting the data’s correlation with the parameters to the hyperparameters. (see (Betancourt and Girolami, 2013)).
On Wed, Feb 1, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Michael Betancourt <betan...@gmail.com> wrote:
These concerns are best analyzed empirically using Stan’s diagnostics.
On Feb 1, 2017, at 4:15 PM, Jonah Gabry <jga...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 3:49:08 PM UTC-5, John Hall wrote:For instance, the number of groups vs. the amount of data or the standard deviation within the groups vs. the standard deviation of all the data.It's not so much the amount of data but rather how informative the data is about the parameters. You can have a small dataset that is informative enough to really pin down parameters and you can have large datasets where the data doesn't provide too much information about the parameters. If you want to see this in action in a simple example then you can play around with the eight schools example. If you leave the number of data points at 8 but modify y (or sigma) to make the data more or less informative about the parameters then which parameterization to use will depend on how you scale y (or sigma). In all cases the amount of data remains the same.Jonah--
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