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We definitely need clear rules.
But the idea of values and a strong positive culture is highly compelling to me.
For example we must have rules against discrimination, but if we value inclusion and have a clear culture of welcoming newcomers I believe we're far less likely to need to apply those rules.
Dermot.
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I agree with TomL that we should discuss face to face.
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Reading their rules in Toby's link conjures up all sorts of disastrous situations: the talks where the speaker had to be physically removed from the podium, other talks where it was more appropriate to wait until afterwards to challenge behaviour...the general problem they had with discrimination and disparaging remarks flying through the air...about gender, race, physical appearance etc.etc.
My serious points here are that overly officious rules lead to an officious and jumpy culture. I don't think this sort of stuff should be on the front page. Plus, it's well recognised that we react much better when told how to be rather than how not to be: when you mention the thing that's not to be done it is immediately conjured in our minds. E.g. "don't think about an elephant".
Yes, to discussing this face to face, but we'll surely need draft rules to work with? Might be a task for a small subcommittee to take on? I don't expect the Google Group to work well for it for long.
What are we doing here? I'm just putting my views of the type of rules we should have.
I always liked having a beer on open evenings. But alcohol has no place with dangerous tool use. But alcohol and coding?
I'd say members need to take responsibility for their own safety: use tools only when you are in a competent state to do so! And maybe tool use is an area where you need to be proscriptive? Just like it might be appropriate to shout at a child (causing mild trauma) to train them to stay away from a scalding stove?
Dermot.
Oh....I have definitely been guilty of dismissing religious beliefs. Maybe not brutally, So a check list has been useful in this case.
Dermot.
Sorry havnt got any experience setting this sort of thing up.
I have a couple of comments though.
When you mentioned gas bottles. Surely the rules on storage of hazardous materials is more to do with limitations imposed by the landlord rather than part of the philosophy or aims of the group.
Wouldnt that be seperate.
Also materials and chemicals need good definitions as an explosive gas is what the railways want to keep from there arches.
Due to a number of fairly recent incidents where theyve had to close part of the network to deal with fires.
But do they allow inert gases such as o2 and argon as used in mig welding. And also quantities as even an air duster aerosol contains volatile gases as propellant due to the ban on cfc's.
And volatile liquids such as acetone that ive discovered is used a lot in 3d printing and post cleanup.
On a personal philosophical note.
Id add "non belief" to that list Tom linked to as it isnt covered by "belief or religion".
Its an oldie but leave religion and politics at the door.
Gordon
Sent my comment before seeing mathews.
I added non belief for that very reason.
Gordon
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That's a mistype should have been co2.
I know o2 is not inert.
So no projects that require welding?
Or just storage of compressed gas.?
If some project required something we couldn't store in the arch could we bring it, use it and take it away. For example compressed co2/argon mix for mig welding some racking together for storage or a project that required welding.
Gordon
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The rules of MakeHackVoid can be summarised as:
respect yourself; respect others; and respect MakeHackVoid and others property.
4. The objects of the association are:
4.1 to promote and encourage creative, technical and scientific skills through social collaboration and education; and
4.2 to provide and maintain shared community workspace and equipment in Greater London.
Subject to the Articles and to the applicable provisions for the time being of the Companies Acts, the directors are responsible for the management of the Company's business, for which purpose they may exercise all the powers of the Company.
1.18 Directors may delegate
1.19 Subject to the Articles, the directors may delegate any of the powers which are conferred on them under the
Articles:
1.19.1 to such person or committee;
1.19.2 by such means (including by a power of attorney);
1.19.3 to such an extent;
1.19.4 in relation to such matters or territories; and
1.19.5 on such terms and conditions;
as they think fit.
1.20 If the directors so specify, any such delegation may authorise further delegation of the directors' powers by any
person to whom they are delegated.
1.21 The directors may revoke any delegation in whole or part, or alter its terms and conditions.
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...
I always liked having a beer on open evenings. But alcohol has no place with dangerous tool use. But alcohol and coding?
...
Dermot.
Tommel,
I don't see the relevance or practicality of having a rule about what people have drunk the night before.
Members need to be honest with themselves as to whether they're in a fit condition to use dangerous tools. That includes deferring tool use when hungover, too tired....or even frustrated by a project that isn't going well. So you would need to be: alert, confident in the job you are approaching, aware that failures are not uncommon. And have enough time to do the job properly.
Dermot.
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I have a few views on the matter of ruled etc. which I'll post later.
And Sarah, I agree. We shouldn't really have banned subjects of discussion. And political correctness and all its horrors only underlines this for me.
It's like the health and safety nightmare where people cite it out of fear, ignorance and laziness...and so many possibilities are cut off.
My point was that sometimes when I'm with techie type people there's an assumption that 'we' don't believe in religion. I was just reminded of that folly when I read the guidelines. I'll happily discuss anything with anyone, and if I offend I'd rather have it explained to me so I can reflect. It doesn't necessarily make me a bad person if I hold a faulty/unpopular view. But it might make me a better one if I'm open to changing that view.
Dermot.
A way forward on the rules?
Firstly Matthew is correct: we must have a watertight way of dealing with problems that averts the legal nightmare he's encountered before.
And it raises a few things I propose we need to do at this stage:
We need to define what we are, or aim to be. And what we are not, and have no aim to be. There has been some work done on this before.
We need to set out our values.
We can also set down a mission statement.
And we need a bunch of rules. For the reasons Matthew laid out in the very first post. But perhaps not very many rules. As I've said before, an opening and welcoming culture is our most valuable natural resource, and will influence the way people behave more than a list of do's and don'ts. It's what people experience on their first visit.
Then we need to devise some scenarios to test all of the above and see how they hold up. As Matthew called it: 'black hat thinking'.
I do believe that much of what goes on in the space will be covered by our aims/values/mission, and that most of the rules will easily follow from them.
Yes, I know the big corporations have ruined the idea of mission statements and values, e.g. Coca-Cola wants to 'refresh the world', and somewhere far down the list is 'profit'....But we are free right now to say what we want to SLMS to be. But the difference is: we can be honest.
So if we say we value safety, then we mean it. And do it.
So we can start out with what we are from day one, what we aspire to.
This is a good opportunity for a bit of envisioning.
And to avoid confusion: I'm all for simplicity. We we can define values and mission without getting carried away like Coca-Cola. Some examples, not necessarily suggestions:
What we are:
“SLMS is social community workshop: a club for people who want to make things. There's an emphasis on the social side and the space is planned, equipped, maintained and run by it's members”
What we value: sharing, safety, inclusiveness, creativity...(just some examples!)
Our mission: let's get together and make stuff....
Regarding sociability and sharing
Yes, we encourage sharing and being sociable. But it is not compulsory! Sometimes you have a project that you just want to concentrate on, and have limited time. But maybe take a break and have a cup of tea and a chat? Also, be aware that sometimes people don't have the time to help you out. But: “when you can, if you can, help someone out”
The case for not setting everything in stone.
As we don't know who will join the Space in the future, and it's been a given from the start that the Makerspace will grow to the shape of it's membership in terms of facilities and activities, then we need to leave it constantly open to change.
A point about rules in general
A drawback of rules can be that some people either see them as something to flout, or something to wield. It's not as easy to do that with values...though someone will probably accept the challenge.
Problems I've observed in groups
Two things that I am aware of as potential problems with any groups: formation of cliques, and formation of an 'old guard' who look down on newbies. Visible elitism, is something I find off-putting.
An open and welcoming culture might in itself avoid both of those typical pitfalls. And naming them in advance certainly helps.
Inclusiveness
So first and foremost we must not put up barriers to membership, and the barriers we aren't aware of are the issue! So as many different perspectives on this as possible would be useful. I know what puts me off/attracts me. What do people with different backgrounds feel?
Also, talking about things at their simplest level: if people from different backgrounds don't come it should be not be because of any barriers we put up: it should be that they're just not interested! For clarity: people who are interested in making should feel comfortable joining! Makerspaces are still quite niche at the moment, but I expect that will change, and that we'll be a part of that by our presence. That's not social engineering, it's just inevitable! I am also interested in 'reaching out' as the expression is, but I don't know if that should be part of SLMS's mission?
Any thoughts?
Dermot.
Dermot.
For what it's worth, I've updated the wiki rules talk page with what I hope is an adequate brief summary of our discussions. I would add, in light of the 'nightmare' scenario that I saw in the past, that the problem arose, not because publishing a set of rules hadn't been on the to-do list; it had; it just hadn't been done.
Matthew,
I hope you'll keep pushing this.
It could too easily get pushed aside with all the imminent construction and planning.
Dermot.
This is just a start, but see http://wiki.southlondonmakerspace.org/Talk:Rules#Proposed_Rules
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Further to this:
- Members shall not use any potentially hazardous tools or equipment while under the influence of alcohol or of any substance that causes drowsiness or reduced concentration.Matthew Stannard (talk) 10:44, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
I think we should add about reduced spacial awareness or coordination.
--On 18 Oct 2014, at 21:16, mstclair87 <mstcl...@hotmail.com> wrote:This is just a start, but see http://wiki.southlondonmakerspace.org/Talk:Rules#Proposed_RulesQueries: See the stuff I've put in italics on the wiki.Matthew--
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As someone with a condition that often leaves them severely compromised
ME/CFS. I simply dont do anything outside of my abilities when effected.
This includes driving, physical activity or mental activity.
However i do need a strong opiate based drug on a daily basis just to get out of the house. I take the minimum necessary and am quite capable when ive taken it.
But it does say on the packet dont operate heavy machinery.
These drugs effect different people to different levels.
They dont make me drowsy or nauseous as some find.
However sometimes i can seem a bit distracted as my condition can effect my memory, speech and balance when Ive overdone it and tire.
This has nothing to do with my medication. In fact the medication helps.
There are many people in the same boat with varied conditions.
So i think any section about medication or medical condition should be based on the individuals abilities and how they manage there condition rather than the drugs or disability.
Gordon
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The way I've handled this in the draft rules I've written is as follows:Members shall declare if they suffer from any condition that means they need help or special regard in the safe use of any makerspace resource.
I'd expect a diabetic to declare likewise, as there is a risk of passing out from hypoglycemia which can easily be mistaken for drunkenness (or vice versa).
Maybe members should be asked when they join whether they have a condition that could cause imparment of their faculties.Matthew
On Monday, 20 October 2014 14:13:10 UTC+1, Gordon Endersby wrote:
As someone with a condition that often leaves them severely compromised
ME/CFS. I simply dont do anything outside of my abilities when effected.
This includes driving, physical activity or mental activity.
However i do need a strong opiate based drug on a daily basis just to get out of the house. I take the minimum necessary and am quite capable when ive taken it.
But it does say on the packet dont operate heavy machinery.These drugs effect different people to different levels.
They dont make me drowsy or nauseous as some find.
However sometimes i can seem a bit distracted as my condition can effect my memory, speech and balance when Ive overdone it and tire.
This has nothing to do with my medication. In fact the medication helps.There are many people in the same boat with varied conditions.
So i think any section about medication or medical condition should be based on the individuals abilities and how they manage there condition rather than the drugs or disability.Gordon
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Two points as this transfers to a face-to-face setup.
i. Online and face-to-face are most effective when the one facilitates each other. I think between the structured work on the wiki and the discussion here, we’re in a great place to have a productive meeting where a sensible agenda can lead, and digressions be policed.
ii. We don’t have to get the rules right first time. That’s impossible. We do have to institute clear, simple and sensible rules for changing the rules and dealing with the unexpected. That’s necessary if SLMS is going to have any kind of life-span. <insert evolutionary metaphor here>. This is in part what Dermot is saying, from a different perspective.
.../snip
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--Yours Sincerely,
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