एकमात्र / द्विमात्र / त्रिमात्र

[Neelesh Bodas]

Dear Scholars

There is some confusion in my mind about the concepts of एकमात्र / द्विमात्र / त्रिमात्र etc. What I have read is that  अ, इ, उ  have 1 maatraa and आ, ई, ऊ have 2 maatraa.  Now scholars also say that ए is 2 maatraa because ए = अ + इ (simple addition of 1+1 = 2).

Q1) Is it correct to do such additions for counting maatraa? If so, then ए = आ + ई will become 4 maatraa, and ऐ = अ + ए will then become 5 maatraa. And then we can create an infinite-maatra ऐ by pure recursion. ( ऐ = अ + ऐ). Is that right? 

Q2) How should one exactly count matras? Should one just remember them (Like अ = 1, आ = 2  etc) or is there any logic ? Are there matras like 4,5,6,7,8,... etc?

Q3) Do maatraa directly relate to the time for which syllable is spoken? (वां काल इ व कालः) 

Q4) How should one pronounce a pluta maatraa? For example, is अ3 pronounced as elongated अ or elongated आ ? And why so? 

Q5) Consider a simple word राम. What is the correct way of pronouncing it - 

(A) "Raam" (Like what we say in Hindi. This has a little less-than-full pronunciation of the letter M) 

OR

(B) "Raama" (which has a full ह्रस्व M)

PS: Any authoritative texts backing the answers will be much appreciated, so that I can look them up for any subsequent questions.

Thanks

Neelesh

[S. L. Abhyankar]

नीलेश-बोडस-वर्य !

मात्रागणनस्य हेतुः यदि छन्द-विश्लेषणार्थम् तस्य विवरणं छन्दःशास्त्रे द्रष्टव्यम् | 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

maatraa in Chandas is a measure of time taken for pronunciation of the syllable. 

Time taken for one wink of an eye is called one maatraa. 

maatraa here means unit. 

Time taken for pronouncing hrasva is one maatraa; for deerghas it is two maatraas. 

ए is 2 maatraas not because it is अ + इ ; but because it is deergha and takes two units of time to pronounce. 

ऐ is almost like अय् and takes one and half units of time but is counted as two maatraas. 

raama is deergha + hrasva = two maatras + one maatra = total three maatraas. 

to pronounce raama as raam is wrong. 

asthira is to be taken as as +thi + ra two maatraas (one and a half but taken as two) +one maatraa + one maatraa 

Two maatraas is counted as guru and one maatraa is counted as laghu. 

सैकत, अंकित, दुःखित, स्थापित, मानित are all UII only ; U stands for guru, I stands for laghu. Hence all these words are counted as bha gaNa. 

[Neelesh Bodas]

Thanks for the answers. Few follow up questions - 

On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 9:21 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

maatraa in Chandas is a measure of time taken for pronunciation of the syllable. 

Is there a difference in "Maatraa of Chandas" and "Maatra of Vyakarana" ? Or they are one and the same?

 

Time taken for one wink of an eye is called one maatraa. 

maatraa here means unit. 

Time taken for pronouncing hrasva is one maatraa; for deerghas it is two maatraas. 

ए is 2 maatraas not because it is अ + इ ; but because it is deergha and takes two units of time to pronounce. 

ऐ is almost like अय् and takes one and half units of time but is counted as two maatraas. 

So essentially, ऐ is pronounced a little "quicker" than ए  ? That's interesting to know!

 

raama is deergha + hrasva = two maatras + one maatra = total three maatraas. 

to pronounce raama as raam is wrong. 

asthira is to be taken as as +thi + ra two maatraas (one and a half but taken as two) +one maatraa + one maatraa 

Two maatraas is counted as guru and one maatraa is counted as laghu. 

Can you please throw more light on how to count matras? You said अस्थिर = अस् + थि + र . Here अस् = 1 + 0.5 = 1.5. But at the same time थि = 1 (so we just ignore थ्) is that because it is before the swara? 

 

Can you recommend some text that I can read and get a deeper understanding on all these things? 

Regards

Neelesh

सैकत, अंकित, दुःखित, स्थापित, मानित are all UII only ; U stands for guru, I stands for laghu. Hence all these words are counted as bha gaNa. 

 

On Thursday, June 28, 2018 at 10:11:21 PM UTC+5:30, Neelesh Bodas wrote:

Dear Scholars

There is some confusion in my mind about the concepts of एकमात्र / द्विमात्र / त्रिमात्र etc. What I have read is that  अ, इ, उ  have 1 maatraa and आ, ई, ऊ have 2 maatraa.  Now scholars also say that ए is 2 maatraa because ए = अ + इ (simple addition of 1+1 = 2).

Q1) Is it correct to do such additions for counting maatraa? If so, then ए = आ + ई will become 4 maatraa, and ऐ = अ + ए will then become 5 maatraa. And then we can create an infinite-maatra ऐ by pure recursion. ( ऐ = अ + ऐ). Is that right? 

Q2) How should one exactly count matras? Should one just remember them (Like अ = 1, आ = 2  etc) or is there any logic ? Are there matras like 4,5,6,7,8,... etc?

Q3) Do maatraa directly relate to the time for which syllable is spoken? (वां काल इ व कालः) 

Q4) How should one pronounce a pluta maatraa? For example, is अ3 pronounced as elongated अ or elongated आ ? And why so? 

Q5) Consider a simple word राम. What is the correct way of pronouncing it - 

(A) "Raam" (Like what we say in Hindi. This has a little less-than-full pronunciation of the letter M) 

OR

(B) "Raama" (which has a full ह्रस्व M)

PS: Any authoritative texts backing the answers will be much appreciated, so that I can look them up for any subsequent questions.

Thanks

Neelesh

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[S. L. Abhyankar]

In response to your query I had inquired whether you had छन्दोमात्रा-s in mind. Mr. Paturi expanded on that. 

But your basic query mentioned एकमात्र द्विमात्र त्रिमात्र. छन्दोमात्रा-s are not more than two. 

So, focusing on त्रिमात्र it comes to mind that some people write ॐ as ओ३म्. The number ३ denotes मात्रा-s more than two. 

By this it comes to mind that in the explanation of ऊकालोझ्रस्वदीर्घप्लुतः (1'2'27) at <http://www.ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/1/2/27> it is mentioned 

उ-ऊ-उ3 एतेषां उच्चारणकालः येन सह समानः, सः अच् क्रमेण ह्रस्वसंज्ञकः, दीर्घसंज्ञकः, प्लुतसंज्ञकः भवति ।

अनेन सूत्रेण स्वराणां ह्रस्व-दीर्घ-प्लुत-भेदाः दीयन्ते । एकमात्रात्मकम् उच्चारणम् यस्य, सः स्वरः ह्रस्वसंज्ञकः भवति । द्विमात्रात्मकम् उच्चारणम् यस्य, सः स्वरः दीर्घसंज्ञकः भवति । त्रिमात्रात्मकम् उच्चारणम् यस्य, सः स्वरः प्लुतसंज्ञकः भवति । 

Can we take it that, that is मात्रा-concept in व्याकरणम् ? 

[Subrahmanian R]

Sirs,

I am also eager to know the answer to the fourth question of Sri Neelesh Boda viz

How should one pronounce a pluta maatraa? For example, is अ3 pronounced as elongated अ or elongated आ ?

In MS Subbulakshmi's rendering of Jayadeva Ashtapati (Dasavataram) it is clearly  elongated अ. I observe that in certain other occasions (in Ashirvachana) it is more like elongated आ .

R Subrahmanian

--

[Neelesh Bodas]

Yes I would like to know more about maatraa in chandas vs maatra in vyakaranam. The panini sutra 1.2.27 or the commentaries there in do not answer the questions that I posed earlier. 

Prof. Paturi did give answers to most of  my questions (thanks!),  but a few questions still remain. 

Regards

Neelesh

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I was away teaching. 

------------------------------

OK, coming back to the discussion, maatraas in vyaakaraNa are the same as those in Chhandas. 

----------------

pluta is not found in varNamaalaa. 

It is found in actual phonemic sequences in words. 

For example, पार्  in पार्थिव takes two and a half maatraas time. Because it is more than two maatraas it is taken as pluta. But in metrical calculations , it is counted as guru only. 

In laukika Samskrita, it has not got much significance. 

But in Veda, it has got significance. 

It is often considered that the elongation at the end of names for the purposes of sambodhana is of pluta length.  

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Interesting video on  ऊकालोझ्रस्वदीर्घप्लुतः (1'2'27)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOwwFtOAnhE

[Neelesh Bodas]

Thank you Professor. 

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 11:57 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was away teaching. 

------------------------------

OK, coming back to the discussion, maatraas in vyaakaraNa are the same as those in Chhandas. 

----------------

pluta is not found in varNamaalaa. 

It is found in actual phonemic sequences in words. 

For example, पार्  in पार्थिव takes two and a half maatraas time. Because it is more than two maatraas it is taken as pluta. But in metrical calculations , it is counted as guru only. 

Q: Why did you break it as पार् + थिव and not पा + र्थि + व? Is there any rule?

Q: Also, in reference to one of your previous comments that ए = 2 and ऐ = 1.5, why does shiksha say that  ए and ऐ are both 1.5 ? am I missing something? 

अर्धमात्रा तु कण्ठस्य एकार-ओकारयोर्भवेत् । Paniniya Shiksha 13/14/15.

Q: Where does karika "एकमात्रो भवेद्ह्रस्वो द्विमात्रो दीर्घ उच्यते" appear? I could only find ह्रस्व-दीर्घ-प्लुतो इति कालतः नियमाः अचि in shiksha.  Tattvabodhini says in 3.2.57 'एकमात्रो ह्रस्वो व्यञ्जनं त्वर्द्धमात्रक'मिति सर्वसंमतत्वात्. Not sure whose is this सर्वसंमतत्व of. 

In laukika Samskrita, it has not got much significance. 

But in Veda, it has got significance. 

It is often considered that the elongation at the end of names for the purposes of sambodhana is of pluta length.  

Q: Does त्रिमात्रिक mean "3 times the एकमात्रा" or does त्रिमात्रिक mean "3 or more times एकमात्रा" 

Looks like I am mixing lots of things here - 

1) Ekamatra vs dvi-matra vs tri-matra

2) Hrasva vs Deergha vs Pluta

3) Laghu vs Guru

This is what I got so far

एकमात्र = ह्रस्व

द्विमात्र = दीर्घ

त्रिमात्र = प्लुत

दीर्घ = गुरु

ह्रस्व = लघु

ह्रस्व followed by संयुक्ताक्षर  = गुरु

Is ह्रस्व followed by संयुक्ताक्षर  एकमात्र or द्विमात्र ?

Sorry for the chaos. 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Why is hrasva followed by samyuktaakshara guru?

It is because the hrasva + the first consonant of the cluster ( samyuktaakshara) make one and a half maatraa. 

Same is the reason why in deergha followed by samyuktaakshara also we split it as deergha + the first consonant of the cluster. paarthiva paar + thiva.

S'ikshaa is pramaaNa.

If s'ikshaa said ए is one and a half maatraa and Nagaraj said ए is two maatraas, s'ikshaa is to be followed.

Thank you Professor. 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Neelesh Bodas]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Why is hrasva followed by samyuktaakshara guru?

It is because the hrasva + the first consonant of the cluster ( samyuktaakshara) make one and a half maatraa. 

Same is the reason why in deergha followed by samyuktaakshara also we split it as deergha + the first consonant of the cluster. paarthiva paar + thiva.

Ok. what about कार्त्स्न्यम् ? (का र् त् स् न् य् अ म्)  How should one split that while counting maatraas?   

 

S'ikshaa is pramaaNa.

Thanks!

Thank you Professor. 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

kaartsy + am

Or

kaarts +yam

Either way it is two and a half , so pluta counted as guru

plus

One and a half counted as guru.

Thank you Professor. 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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