Ashwatthama

[K.N.RAMESH]

Dear all,

What is the meaning of the word Ashwatthama... & etymology please.

Are the facts written about him here http://www.speakingtree.in/slideshow/is-ashwatthama-still-alive-the-facts-will-make-you-believe-he-probably-is/the-mystery true...??

thanks

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On 12-Apr-2016 7:48 pm, "K.N.RAMESH" <knra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> What is the meaning of the word Ashwatthama... & etymology please.

अश्वत्थामन्¦ पु०
अश्वस्येव स्थाम बलमस्य;
अश्व इव तिष्ठति युद्धे स्थिरत्वात् स्था--क वा पृषो०

Please look up in Puranic Encyclopedia for correct information about azvatthAman -

http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/PEScan/2014/web/index.php

[Taff Rivers]

KN.

"What is the meaning of the word Ashwatthama... & etymology please."

 

As a word, as opp. to a name,and substituting a v for the w viz.  Ashwatthama  ==> Ashvatthama

aśvatthāma

      •  mfn. (for aśva-sth°) having the strength of a horse, Pat. [115,3]

sthāman

      •  n. station, seat, place, AV.

      •  strength, power, Bālar. Lalit. SaddhP.

      •  the neighing of a horse, MBh. i, 5116. [1264,1]

     The name, and the legend, I leave to the imagination of the story tellers.  

Taff

[KN.Ramesh]

Thanks Dr.Bhat ji & Taff.

From the link for puranic reference I could not get the details.

Krishna cursing azvatthAmA to be affected with leprosy for killing pandava's sons & remain as an orphan for 3000  years- Where is this occurring in Mahabharata?

[Hnbhat B.R.]

!

On 13-Apr-2016 5:58 pm, "KN.Ramesh" <knra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Dr.Bhat ji & Taff.
>
> From the link for puranic reference I could not get the details.
>

Look the word azvatthAmA, in the Puranic Encyclopedia and you will get all the details.

> Krishna cursing azvatthAmA to be affected with leprosy for killing pandava's sons & remain as an orphan for 3000  years- Where is this occurring in Mahabharata?
>

Here it is from PE:

       
7) Aśvatthāmā and his jewel. The anger of Aśyatthāmā did not abate even after killing Dhṛṣṭadyumna, the butcher  [Page069-a+ 65]  of his father. With a view to destroying the whole Pāṇḍava dynasty he sent against the Pāṇḍavas the all-power-ful Brahmaśirāstra (a missile charged with great power 
by a holy incantation). But Droṇa had given the same type of missile to Arjuna also and so he sent forth his to meet the other. It created such a great explosion that all the elders on both the sides joined together and requested them to withdraw the missiles. Arjuna demanded the jewel on Aśvatthāmā's head to withdraw his missile. 
But Aśvatthāmā refused to part with it. He said, “This jewel of mine is more valuable than all the wealth of both Pāṇḍavas and Kauravas put together. If you wear this you need not be afraid of your enemies, disease, hunger and thirst. No harm will come to you from Yakṣas, Nāgas or thieves. I will never part with such a jewel”. (Ślokas 28-30, M.B., Chapter 15, Sautika Parva).

After great persuasion Aśvatthāmā surrendered his jewel but without withdrawing the missile directed it towards the womb of Uttarā who was bearing a child then. Weare reminded of an incident which happened when the Pāṇḍavas were residing in Upaplāvya; a poor brahmin looking at Uttarā said, “When the Kauravas will be weakening in power a child will be born to you. The boy will have to bear a test even while in the womb and so you must name the child Parīkṣit (One who has been tested)”. 
When the powerful missile was flying straight towards Uttarā's womb Śrī Kṛṣṇa said, “Even though the child in the womb will die of this arrow it will be reborn. Oh, Aśvatthāmā, you will be denounced by all as a sinner for killing this unborn babe. To suffer for this evil deed you will roam about in the earth for three thousand years. Nobody will associate with you; you will be shunned by society. You will be tormented by all diseases on earth. But the babe which you have now killed will be a famous scholar and brave King. He will rule this country for sixty years. He will be know as the next Kururāja. Look, I am giving life to the babe you have killed”. Vyāsa supported Kṛṣṇa, and Aśvatthāmā repenting on his hasty action gave the jewel to the Pāṇḍavas and left for the forest with Vyāsa. 
(Sautika Parva, M.B.). 

[Taff Rivers]

From the link for puranic reference I could not get the details.

azvatthAmA, in the Puranic Encyclopedia

[Taff Rivers]

 

    Re. "the link for puranic reference".

    The given input azvatthAmA is in the Kyoto-Harvard transliteration scheme.

Searches and readings are more likely to be fruitful when input format and transliteration scheme are matched.

(and when the input itself, mixes formats...)

 

    Moreover "Where is this occurring in Mahabharata?" is entirely unrelated to the puranic reference.

    Members need to know the specifics of which particular Mahabharata text you don't quote from.

    The source word is śvitra 'white leprosy'  but it is not 'leprosy'.

    śvitra or Vitiligo, which does turn people white , is something else.

śvitra

      •  mfn. whitish, white, AV. TS.

      •  having white leprosy, PañcavBr.

      •  m. a partic. white domestic animal or any white animal, VS.

      •  m. n. morbid whiteness of the skin, white leprosy, vitiligo, Suśr. BhP.

      •  = antarikṣa, Sāy. on ṚV. v, 19, 3.

      •  (ā), f. N. of a woman, Sāy. on ṚV. i, 13, 14. [1106,2]

Vitiligo is a condition in which areas of skin lose their normal pigment and so become white. 

    It is common, and affects about 1% of the world’s population.

          Myths and legends get embroidered with the telling, the more fanciful the better.

          It is vital to quote from the source text(s) themselves, while specifying the version.

   Leprosy! 

Taff

On Wednesday, 13 April 2016 13:28:45 UTC+1, KN.Ramesh wrote:

[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

"श्वित्र - having white leprosy"

This mix-up between 'leprosy' and 'white leprosy' (vitiligo) is a creation of the widely-held misunderstanding in the Indian languages about these two distinct medical conditions.  They both are called 'कुष्ठ'  ('कोड' in Marathi ) and both lead to social ostracism and boycott of the affected person.  They were both considered incurable, though 'leprosy' is an infectious disease passed on through contact/proximity and 'vitiligo' a medical disorder that is not passed on through contact.  With advancement in the science of Microbiology, some cure is now possible for leprosy but 'white leprosy' remains without cure. 

As to Ashvatthama's curse of the festering head-wound, the belief prevalent in some parts of India is that he still wanders around in the night and comes to peoples' houses in the midnight, asking for butter to apply to his painful wound.

Arvind Kolhatkar.

[Taff Rivers]

Arvind,

   What is being sought is information that enables pratyakṣa of the source of these 'beliefs'.

   In which actual texts do we read about 'Ashvatthama's curse of the festering head-wound', please?

  Thus that all Indians, not to mention non-Indians, may see for themselves and from pratyakṣa of their own eyes may also believe so.

  As it happens I am familiar with 'microbiology', having worked in a pathology lab.of a general hospital. 

 

   'Some' cure  for Hansen's disease, as it was known, was discovered way back in 1941.

  Bacteria are visible, so too are texts, the evidence, the source text, please, that we all may thus believe.

Taff

   One time microbiologist, Retd.

   G. H. Hansen (1841–1912), Norwegian physician and discoverer of leprosy-causing Mycobacterium leprae

[Arvind_Kolhatkar]

I thought that Dr Bhat has already given the source of the अश्वत्थामा story as सौप्तिकपर्व, अध्याय १५.  I was only trying to guess as to why MW has referred to 'white leprosy' in his explanation of 'श्वित्र'.

As to the source of the story, please see the following verses and other verses nearby.  These occur in पर्व १० सौप्तिकपर्व, अध्याय १६, in the BORI Critical Edition:

.

त्वां तु कापुरुषं पापं विदु: सर्वे मनीषिण:

असकृत्पापकर्माणं बालजीवितघातकम्॥९॥

तस्मात्त्वमस्य पापस्य कर्मण: फलमाप्नुहि 

त्रीणि वर्षसहस्राणि चरिष्यसि महीमिमाम्

अप्राप्नुवन्क्वचित्काञ्चित्संविदं जातु केनचित् ॥१०॥

Arvind Kolhatkar.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

W

On 14-Apr-2016 9:06 am, "Arvind_Kolhatkar" <kolhat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I thought that Dr Bhat has already given the source of the अश्वत्थामा story as सौप्तिकपर्व, अध्याय १५.  

I gave the story and the source as mentioned in the Puranic Encyclopedia of Vettam Mani, searchable online.

I was only trying to guess as to why MW has referred to 'white leprosy' in his explanation of 'श्वित्र'.
>
> As to the source of the story, please see the following verses and other verses nearby.  These occur in पर्व १० सौप्तिकपर्व, अध्याय १६, in the BORI Critical Edition:
> .
> त्वां तु कापुरुषं पापं विदु: सर्वे मनीषिण:
> असकृत्पापकर्माणं बालजीवितघातकम्॥९॥
> तस्मात्त्वमस्य पापस्य कर्मण: फलमाप्नुहि 
> त्रीणि वर्षसहस्राणि चरिष्यसि महीमिमाम्
> अप्राप्नुवन्क्वचित्काञ्चित्संविदं जातु केनचित् ॥१०॥
>
> Arvind Kolhatkar.

The next verses contain the nature of the curse as given in the story given in PE:

निर्जनानसहायस्त्वं देशान् प्रविचरिष्यसि
भवित्री न हि ते क्षुद्र जनमध्येषु संस्थितिः१०,०१६.०११
पूयशोणितगन्धी च दुर्गकान्तारसंश्रयः
विचरिष्यसि पापात्मन् सर्वव्याधिसमन्वितः१०,०१६.०१२

There is no mention of Leprosy श्वित्र or otherwise, but conclues as सर्वव्याधिसमन्वितः१०,०१६.०१२d.

We have to take the word of the physician and microbiologist diagnosed as श्वित्र as he also has not cited the source to support his statement that it was श्वित्र.

May be some other source may contain श्वित्र.

Index of Names in Mahabharata also gives the same nature of curse without mention of leprosy white otherwise:

16 (Kṛshṇa, with the assent of Vyāsa, decrees that the unborn 
son of Uttarā-Parikshit shall be born dead, but be called to life by Kṛshṇa, while A., for having killed an embryo, shall wander about for 3000 years in the wilderness, stinking and oppressed by all sorts of diseases; 

[Taff Rivers]

Dr,

   "I was only trying to guess as to why MW has referred to 'white leprosy' in his explanation of 'श्वित्र'."

    MW's lexicographers invariably justify their assertions by citing their sources, as indeed they do in this instance.

    viz.  PañcavBr. and Suśr. BhP

     However, it does appear that the origin(s) of these things are long lost in the mists of time, 

     And with existing translations, we are dependent on the interpretations of the translator.

śvitra

      •  mfn. whitish, white, AV. TS.

      •  having white leprosy, PañcavBr.

      •  m. a partic. white domestic animal or any white animal, VS.

      •  m. n. morbid whiteness of the skin, white leprosy, vitiligo, Suśr. BhP.

      •  = antarikṣa, Sāy. on ṚV. v, 19, 3.

      •  (ā), f. N. of a woman, Sāy. on ṚV. i, 13, 14. [1106,2]

      However, it does appear that the origin(s) of these things are long lost in the mists of time, 

      And with existing translations, we are dependent on the interpretations of the translator, and the philosophical schools that he subscribes to.

    Taff,

       BTW. A microbiologist is a technician that works in a laboratory, with microscopes. He/she is not a physician.

 

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Dear Taff,

The curse to be affected with leprosy for killing pandava's sons is  occurring in Mahabharata?

On 13-Apr-2016 5:58 pm, "KN.Ramesh" <knra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Krishna cursing azvatthAmA to be affected with leprosy for killing pandava's sons & remain as an orphan for 3000  years- Where is this occurring in Mahabharata?
>

The references in MW gives the occurrences of the word श्वित्र  and not the occurrence of the curse mentioned in Mahabharata as required by Ramesh.

PañcavBr. and Suśr. BhP

They refer to पञ्चविंशब्राह्मण, सुश्रुतसंहिता - the first being Vedic text and the second being medical text, the chances of Krishna's curse is nil and in a medical text the word will be used श्वित्र. The third is भागवतपुराण without specific reference as to Skanda, Chapter and verse number, it is difficult whether श्वित्र occurs as part of the curse of Krishna as mentioned by Ramesh and even if be part of the curse, it does not occur as part of the curse in Mahabharata according to the source text cited. Only his mention of the duration of the curse 3000 year and wandering as orphan seems to be corresponding to the nature of curse in Mahabharata cited.

I will check the episode in भागवतपुराण for the occurrence of the word any how.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On 14-Apr-2016 7:32 pm, "Hnbhat B.R." <hnbh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Taff,
>
> The curse to be affected with leprosy for killing pandava's sons is  occurring in Mahabharata?
>

> The references in MW gives the occurrences of the word श्वित्र  and not the occurrence of the curse mentioned in Mahabharata as required by Ramesh.
>
> PañcavBr. and Suśr. BhP
>
>

> I will check the episode in भागवतपुराण for the occurrence of the word any how.

None of the two occurrences of श्वित्र in भागवतपुराण is related to the curse.

The meaning of the word श्वित्र or its sources was not asked for by Ramesh. The source of the curse in Mahabharata was asked for and the source text doesn't contain leprosy or श्वित्र as mentioned by him in the text quoted.

[Taff Rivers]

Thank you professor,

  Ramesh is yet to say where he obtained the non-occurrence from.

Regards,

   Taff

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On 14-Apr-2016 8:46 pm, "Taff Rivers" <eddie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you professor,
>
>   Ramesh is yet to say where he obtained the non-occurrence from.

He has given the source in the first posting itself. It is there as he mentioned::

" Krishna's rage

Krishna cursed Ashwatthama with terrible leprosy that would haunt him for 3,000 years. Krishna further stated that Ashwatthama would not be helped by anyone or provided food or shelter."

http://www.speakingtree.in/slideshow/is-ashwatthama-still-alive-the-facts-will-make-you-believe-he-probably-is/krishnas-rage

He asked whether the information he got from the link are true and in my first post the link for reliable source for looking for correct information. Since he couldn't look up there the word अश्वत्थामन् as suggested by me, he asked the second question and to which I myself looked up the word in the nominative and pasted in reply to his second question relevant portion from the Puranic Encyclopedia.
This information from PE prooved to be true by quoting relevant text to the curse in the Mahabharata with exact verse numbers to refer. And the question in the first post is answered as the information from the Speaking Tree is not reliable.

And nothing in replies is irrelevant to the questions.

Now only give his confirmation of unreliability of his source of his information.

[KN.Ramesh]

Thanks a lot Dr.Bhat ji, Taff ji & Arvind Ji for the help.

I was only looking for the reference of the slokas from Mahabharat and not from MW. 

In PE, I did not opt for output to be in Kyoto-havard while in input I left it as Kyoto-harvard & hence the link did not work.

Now it is working.

Thanks a lot once again Dr.Bhat ji.

[Taff Rivers]

KN.

  "I was only looking for the reference of from Mahabharat and not from MW."

   And  for "the meaning of the word Ashwatthama... & etymology please."

   Hence the revealing MW lexicon discovery.

    As for the Mahabharat and the slokas, the reference you gave
       http://www.speakingtree.in/slideshow/is-ashwatthama-still-alive-the-facts-will-make-you-believe-he-probably-is/the-mystery true...??
    That does not reveal that quote, nor does it's 'slide show' do anything.

    The ref. found by the professor is the viable one 
       http://www.speakingtree.in/slideshow/is-ashwatthama-still-alive-the-facts-will-make-you-believe-he-probably-is/krishnas-rage

    Which hardly bears hallmarks of a reliable source for Sanskrit literature. And shouldn't be taken at all seriously, but rather as a parihāsakathām (an amusing story) .

 

Taff,

   Let the light that penetrates all darkness prevail upon us all.

[K.N.RAMESH]

>   Hence the revealing MW lexicon discovery.

Thanks Taffs, for the clarification. 

namaskarams 

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[lino bercelli]

Mahābhārata: Sauptikaparvan
(...)
10016008 vāsudeva uvāca
10016008a amoghaḥ paramāstrasya pātas tasya bhaviṣyati
10016008c sa tu garbho mr̥to jāto dīrgham āyur avāpsyati
10016009a tvāṁ tu kāpuruṣaṁ pāpaṁ viduḥ sarve manīṣiṇaḥ
10016009c asakr̥tpāpakarmāṇaṁ bālajīvitaghātakam
10016010a tasmāt tvam asya pāpasya karmaṇaḥ phalam āpnuhi
10016010c trīṇi varṣasahasrāṇi cariṣyasi mahīm imām
10016010e aprāpnuvan kva cit kāṁ cit saṁvidaṁ jātu kena cit
10016011a nirjanān asahāyas tvaṁ deśān pravicariṣyasi
10016011c bhavitrī na hi te kṣudra janamadhyeṣu saṁsthitiḥ
10016012a pūyaśoṇitagandhī ca durgakāntārasaṁśrayaḥ
10016012c vicariṣyasi pāpātman sarvavyādhisamanvitaḥ
10016013a vayaḥ prāpya parikṣit tu vedavratam avāpya ca
10016013c kr̥pāc chāradvatād vīraḥ sarvāstrāṇy upalapsyate
10016014a viditvā paramāstrāṇi kṣatradharmavrate sthitaḥ
10016014c ṣaṣṭiṁ varṣāṇi dharmātmā vasudhāṁ pālayiṣyati
10016015a itaś cordhvaṁ mahābāhuḥ kururājo bhaviṣyati
10016015c parikṣin nāma nr̥patir miṣatas te sudurmate
10016015e paśya me tapaso vīryaṁ satyasya ca narādhama
10016016 vyāsa uvāca
10016016a yasmād anādr̥tya kr̥taṁ tvayāsmān karma dāruṇam
10016016c brāhmaṇasya sataś caiva yasmāt te vr̥ttam īdr̥śam
10016017a tasmād yad devakīputra uktavān uttamaṁ vacaḥ
10016017c asaṁśayaṁ te tad bhāvi kṣudrakarman vrajāśv itaḥ
10016018 aśvatthāmovāca
10016018a sahaiva bhavatā brahman sthāsyāmi puruṣeṣv aham
10016018c satyavāg astu bhagavān ayaṁ ca puruṣottamaḥ
(...)

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On 19-Apr-2016 7:46 pm, "'lino bercelli' via samskrita" <sams...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> Mahābhārata: Sauptikaparvan
> (...)
>

The relevant portion has already quoted in previous mails.