UnNetHack - UnNetHack enters the Age of Unicode - Part Two (UTF8graphics)
Patric Mueller
UnNetHack has a new option "UTF8graphics" for outputting UTF-8 encoded
characters onto the terminal. Currently only dungeon features (walls,
fountains, altars, etc.) are supported although I think it shouldn't be
too difficult to extend this to all things that are displayed on the
map.
Example map with UTF8graphics:
http://bhaak.dyndns.org/nethack/unnethack_dump_utf8.html
Here is a list of the dungeon features that are enhanced in
UTF8graphics:
Altar: Ω
Grave: †
Lava: ◆
Tree: Ψ
Water: ≈
Fountain: ¶
Iron bars: Π
Open doors: ▒
Ladder up/down: ≤ ≥
The floor and the walls use the usual line drawing characters already
familiar to the players from IBMgraphics and DECgraphics.
Sinks and thrones currently lack Unicode characters but ideas for those
and for general improvements is of course welcome.
I didn't bother to update the Rogue level characters. That level will
still only appear in simple ASCII (after seeing what they had to do with
IBMgraphics to make it look different, I rather postponed doing that for
UTF8graphics yet).
For monsters there's already the interesting work Ray Chason did a while
back: "Unicode map revisited: Proposed monster accents":
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/f03c1f0eafd05997>
I will certainly consider this when changing the monster characters from
ASCII to Unicode.
But be aware that the current implementation is restricted to single
code points. That means no combining characters or other fancy Unicode
feature are possible at the moment.
For a fully enabled UTF-8 UnNetHack there is still a lot to do (don't
expect a release date soon). For example the whole text handling would
have to be checked or also the GRAPHICS option would need to be
rewritten to allow the user to specify Unicode code points. Currently
the users have to be content with the hard coded defaults.
As usual this feature is already available on the public server and will
be part of the next release of UnNetHack.
Bye
Patric
--
<http://unnethack.wordpress.com/2011/01/25/unnethack-enters-the-age-of-unicode-part-two/>
UnNetHack: http://apps.sf.net/trac/unnethack/
Janis Papanagnou
>
> UnNetHack has a new option "UTF8graphics" for outputting UTF-8 encoded
> characters onto the terminal. Currently only dungeon features (walls,
> [...]
> Here is a list of the dungeon features that are enhanced in
> UTF8graphics:
>
> Altar: Ω
> Grave: †
> Lava: ◆
> Tree: Ψ
> Water: ≈
> Fountain: ¶
> Iron bars: Π
> Open doors: ▒
> Ladder up/down: ≤ ≥
> Sinks and thrones currently lack Unicode characters but ideas for those
> and for general improvements is of course welcome.
Since you asked for it, here are my 2 cents; I think there are much better
symbols available in that huge character base. For example...
Altar: greek letter small pi: π (its surface is flat, isn't it?)
Lava: approximate equal symbol: ≅ (resembles liquid and being not that fluid)
Fountains (that glyph is too fat!): upper half of an integral[*], or §, or ξ
Iron bars: either simply #, or parallel symbol, or equiv: ≡ , or greek xi: Ξ
Open doors: Π (the symbol above used as iron bar would IMO fit better here)
And I don't think that the ladder symbols are better than the plain < and >,
or use double arrows: ⇑ and ⇓
(Hope that copy/pasted symbols are visible in the posting.)
Janis
[*] That was available in some old character set that I remember, not sure
whether it's is supported by Unicode (and UTF-8).
Benjamin A. Schmit
> On 25.01.2011 19:10, Patric Mueller wrote:
>> UnNetHack has a new option "UTF8graphics" for outputting UTF-8 encoded
>> characters onto the terminal. Currently only dungeon features (walls,
>> fountains, altars, etc.) are supported [...]
>> [...]
>> Here is a list of the dungeon features that are enhanced in
>> UTF8graphics:
>>
>> Altar: Ω
>> Grave: †
>> Lava: ◆
>> Tree: Ψ
>> Water: ≈
>> Fountain: ¶
>> Iron bars: Π
>> Open doors: ▒
>> Ladder up/down: ≤ ≥
>> [...]
>> Sinks and thrones currently lack Unicode characters but ideas for those
>> and for general improvements is of course welcome.
the font has that sign, of course.
Throne: Maybe the sign for the hilbert space (ℌ; E2848C). The h
provides the basic form, and the ancient letter looks reasonably regal.
But it can look quite differently with different fonts. Also, there
are UTF8 letters for the white and black king in chess which might be
fitting: ♔ (E29994) and ♚ (E2999A).
> Since you asked for it, here are my 2 cents; I think there are much better
> symbols available in that huge character base. For example...
>
> Altar: greek letter small pi: π (its surface is flat, isn't it?)
Depends on the font. AFAIK, the capital pi (Π) always has a flat
surface; the small letter's surface might also resemble the tilde (~);
that's the case e.g. in FreeSerif installed on my Ubuntu system. Even
better the double capital pi (ℿ; E284BF) – if the font has it.
> Lava: approximate equal symbol: ≅ (resembles liquid and being not that fluid)
Good one!
> Fountains (that glyph is too fat!): upper half of an integral[*], or §, or ξ
A very nice, sparkling fountain would also be the greek Y with two
points on top: ϔ (CF94).
> Iron bars: either simply #, or parallel symbol, or equiv: ≡ , or greek xi: Ξ
A capital psi would hurt you much more if you jump upon it from above:
Ψ (CEA8). The tree could then be Ɏ (C98E); or also the ankh sign (☥;
E298A5) if the font has that. Truest to the shape and even more
obscure: the neuter sign (⚲; E29AB2)
> Open doors: Π (the symbol above used as iron bar would IMO fit better here)
Sounds good. Maybe also a capital omega if you thing of the rounded
doorways of a dungeon: Ω (CEA9). Staying with this image, a closed
door would then be (again depends on what the font provides) either ϴ
(CFB4), Φ (CDB3), or ∅ (E28885). Even better ⊜ if available (E28A9C);
that's the equal sign with a circle around it, or a round door with two
iron bars in the middle.
> And I don't think that the ladder symbols are better than the plain < and >,
> or use double arrows: ⇑ and ⇓
>
> (Hope that copy/pasted symbols are visible in the posting.)
>
> Janis
>
> [*] That was available in some old character set that I remember, not sure
> whether it's is supported by Unicode (and UTF-8).
Changed my charset to UTF8 now and hope… If you don't see some of the
characters, try changing your font to Courier New or Arial; the latest
version of these should both have all characters used here.
Benjamin
--
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires.
Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-- Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles
JoaoSantos
> UnNetHack has a new option "UTF8graphics" for outputting UTF-8 encoded
> characters onto the terminal. Currently only dungeon features (walls,
> fountains, altars, etc.) are supported although I think it shouldn't be
> too difficult to extend this to all things that are displayed on the
> map.
> Altar: Ω
[...]
Do these changes affect the travel command? If one uses the travel
command and chooses _ as destination does one arrive at the altar?
solidsnail
Patric Mueller
> On 25.01.2011 19:10, Patric Mueller wrote:
>>
>> UnNetHack has a new option "UTF8graphics" for outputting UTF-8 encoded
>> characters onto the terminal. Currently only dungeon features (walls,
>> fountains, altars, etc.) are supported [...]
>> [...]
>> Here is a list of the dungeon features that are enhanced in
>> UTF8graphics:
>>
>> Altar: Ω
>> Grave: †
>> Lava: ◆
>> Tree: Ψ
>> Water: ≈
>> Fountain: ¶
>> Iron bars: Π
>> Open doors: ▒
>> Ladder up/down: ≤ ≥
>> [...]
>> Sinks and thrones currently lack Unicode characters but ideas for those
>> and for general improvements is of course welcome.
>
> Since you asked for it, here are my 2 cents; I think there are much better
> symbols available in that huge character base. For example...
>
> Altar: greek letter small pi: π (its surface is flat, isn't it?)
I don't think that the symbols used in NetHack *need* to resemble the
object they represent in the real world.
As Benjamin already pointed out, small pi is one of those characters
whose visual depiction is highly font dependent.
For example "dagger" that is used for the grave is another such case.
It looks quite different even in different monospace fonts. I found at
least two widely used monospace fonts that show it with and without
decorations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Daggers.svg
> Lava: approximate equal symbol: ≅ (resembles liquid and being not that fluid)
This might actually be a good idea. I'll have to check how that looks.
I don't like that lava and water are the same symbol in vanilla. They
behave quite differently and IMO this should be reflected in the
symbol.
> Fountains (that glyph is too fat!): upper half of an integral[*], or §, or ξ
See end of posting.
> Iron bars: either simply #, or parallel symbol, or equiv: ≡ , or greek xi: Ξ
I think I'll go with the equivalence symbol. It is also used for that
purpose in IBMgraphics.
> Open doors: Π (the symbol above used as iron bar would IMO fit better here)
Here I used the symbol from DECgraphics. In IBMgraphics this symbol is
used for corridors. Open doors are small solid blocks. I don't like
the look of open doors in IBMgraphics.
> And I don't think that the ladder symbols are better than the plain < and >,
Again, that's how they already look like in DECgraphics.
> or use double arrows: ⇑ and ⇓
>
> (Hope that copy/pasted symbols are visible in the posting.)
They are.
> [*] That was available in some old character set that I remember, not sure
> whether it's is supported by Unicode (and UTF-8).
With what setting are you playing? From your comments it almost sounds
like you neither use IBMgraphics nor DECgraphics but just plain ASCII?
The upper half of an integral is from code page 437, the originally
intended character set for IBMgraphics and is used in Vanilla for the
fountain. IMO this symbol is too narrow.
Many non-americans see the ¶ instead as the default code page varies
quite a bit on Windows.
Bye
Patric
--
NetHack-De: NetHack auf Deutsch - http://nethack-de.sf.net/
NetHack for AROS: http://sf.net/projects/nethack-aros/
UnNetHack: http://apps.sf.net/trac/unnethack/
Janis Papanagnou
On 26.01.2011 09:39, Benjamin A. Schmit wrote:
> Pe dată de 2011-01-26 03:10, Janis Papanagnou a scris:
>> On 25.01.2011 19:10, Patric Mueller wrote:
>>> UnNetHack has a new option "UTF8graphics" for outputting UTF-8 encoded
>>> characters onto the terminal. Currently only dungeon features (walls,
>>> fountains, altars, etc.) are supported [...]
>>> [...]
>>> Here is a list of the dungeon features that are enhanced in
>>> UTF8graphics:
>>>
>>> Altar: Ω
>>> Grave: †
>>> Lava: ◆
>>> Tree: Ψ
>>> Water: ≈
>>> Fountain: ¶
>>> Iron bars: Π
>>> Open doors: ▒
>>> Ladder up/down: ≤ ≥
>>> [...]
>>> Sinks and thrones currently lack Unicode characters but ideas for those
>>> and for general improvements is of course welcome.
> Sink: inverted omega (℧; hexadecimal UTF8 representation E284A7). If
I like it.
> the font has that sign, of course.
>
> Throne: Maybe the sign for the hilbert space (ℌ; E2848C). The h
> provides the basic form, and the ancient letter looks reasonably regal.
> But it can look quite differently with different fonts. Also, there
Looks convoluted on my side of the GUI.
> are UTF8 letters for the white and black king in chess which might be
> fitting: ♔ (E29994) and ♚ (E2999A).
As abstract symbol fitting well. But I think it would be nicer if the
glyph would resemble the shape of the dungeon feature, so I'd prefer
something like the 'h' above.
>> Since you asked for it, here are my 2 cents; I think there are much better
>> symbols available in that huge character base. For example...
>>
>> Altar: greek letter small pi: π (its surface is flat, isn't it?)
> Depends on the font. AFAIK, the capital pi (Π) always has a flat
> surface; the small letter's surface might also resemble the tilde (~);
> that's the case e.g. in FreeSerif installed on my Ubuntu system. Even
> better the double capital pi (ℿ; E284BF) – if the font has it.
>
>> Lava: approximate equal symbol: ≅ (resembles liquid and being not that fluid)
> Good one!
>
>> Fountains (that glyph is too fat!): upper half of an integral[*], or §, or ξ
> A very nice, sparkling fountain would also be the greek Y with two
> points on top: ϔ (CF94).
I like that, too.
>
>> Iron bars: either simply #, or parallel symbol, or equiv: ≡ , or greek xi: Ξ
> A capital psi would hurt you much more if you jump upon it from above:
> Ψ (CEA8).
The Psi is not so good, IMO.
> The tree could then be Ɏ (C98E); or also the ankh sign (☥;
> E298A5) if the font has that. Truest to the shape and even more
> obscure: the neuter sign (⚲; E29AB2)
The latter is simple but fine.
>> Open doors: Π (the symbol above used as iron bar would IMO fit better here)
> Sounds good. Maybe also a capital omega if you thing of the rounded
> doorways of a dungeon: Ω (CEA9). Staying with this image, a closed
Also very nice; supports the feeling of a cave. (And it is a cave symbol
on topographical maps, BTW.)
> door would then be (again depends on what the font provides) either ϴ
> (CFB4), Φ (CDB3), or ∅ (E28885). Even better ⊜ if available (E28A9C);
> that's the equal sign with a circle around it, or a round door with two
> iron bars in the middle.
>
>> And I don't think that the ladder symbols are better than the plain < and >,
>> or use double arrows: ⇑ and ⇓
>>
[snip font issues]
Janis
Patric Mueller
No.
> If one uses the travel command and chooses _ as destination does one
> arrive at the altar?
Yes. This is already needed and implemented for Vanilla. For example
if you are using IBMgraphics or DECgraphics fountains no longer look
like '{'. But the travel command still positions the cursor on the
fountains if you press '{'.
Janis Papanagnou
>
> I don't think that the symbols used in NetHack *need* to resemble the
> object they represent in the real world.
They don't need to, but I think it would be the best way to go.
> I don't like that lava and water are the same symbol in vanilla. They
> behave quite differently and IMO this should be reflected in the
> symbol.
Well, I play in color so I consider the blue/red difference as
sufficient; I don't "need" :-) another glyph - ...but since you
made that interesting proposal, why not go that way.
>> Fountains (that glyph is too fat!): upper half of an integral[*], or §, or ξ
>
> See end of posting.
[...]
> With what setting are you playing? From your comments it almost sounds
> like you neither use IBMgraphics nor DECgraphics but just plain ASCII?
Yes, I play in plain ASCII text, colored.
Janis
Patric Mueller
> Pe dată de 2011-01-26 03:10, Janis Papanagnou a scris:
>>> [...]
>>> Sinks and thrones currently lack Unicode characters but ideas for those
>>> and for general improvements is of course welcome.
> Sink: inverted omega (℧; hexadecimal UTF8 representation E284A7). If
> the font has that sign, of course.
That's really a problem. You can't be sure that the font being used
has the characters you're outputting.
I tried to restrict myself to the Windows Glyph List 4, a list of
characters that is guaranteed to be displayed correctly on Windows:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGL4
Although it's hard. There are just so many usable characters. :-)
But you still have to test on Linux and OSX.
> Throne: Maybe the sign for the hilbert space (ℌ; E2848C). The h
> provides the basic form, and the ancient letter looks reasonably regal.
I also really like ♄ (the astronomical symbol for Saturn)
> But it can look quite differently with different fonts. Also, there
> are UTF8 letters for the white and black king in chess which might be
> fitting: ♔ (E29994) and ♚ (E2999A).
I think that's a bit *too* abstract. :)
>> Fountains (that glyph is too fat!): upper half of an integral[*], or §, or ξ
> A very nice, sparkling fountain would also be the greek Y with two
> points on top: ϔ (CF94).
But I try not to use letterlike symbols as those are exclusive for
monsters. Greek and Cyrillic characters are fine if they are distinct
enough from Latin characters.
Another nice one would be ♈ (the symbol for Aries).
Pat Rankin
wrote:
> On 25.01.2011 19:10, Patric Mueller wrote:
>> [...]
>> Here is a list of the dungeon features that are enhanced in
>> UTF8graphics:
>> Ladder up/down: ≤ ≥
>> [...]
>
> And I don't think that the ladder symbols are better than the plain < and >,
> or use double arrows: ⇑ and ⇓
The original DECgraphics characters left up and down
ladder as the default greater-than and less-than signs
(and it's almost certain that DECgraphics was implemented
before ladders, but I'm too lazy right now to confirm that).
I added the greater-or-equal and less-or-equal signs to
that set however long ago. They're immediately recognizable
as being similar to stairs, and the bottom crossbar can be
viewed as a rung of a convential ladder (that's quite a
stretch, I admit, but it fits once you're aware that they
represent ladders; however, the crossbar could just as
easily have been used to indicate the tread of a stair).
Matching characters which are already in use is
probably preferable to trying to find obscure characters
that look more like whatever they represent, at least if
such characters might end up looking like something else
in some fonts.
Janis Papanagnou
>
> The original DECgraphics characters left up and down
> ladder as the default greater-than and less-than signs
> (and it's almost certain that DECgraphics was implemented
> before ladders, but I'm too lazy right now to confirm that).
> I added the greater-or-equal and less-or-equal signs to
> that set however long ago. They're immediately recognizable
> as being similar to stairs, and the bottom crossbar can be
> viewed as a rung of a convential ladder (that's quite a
> stretch, I admit, but it fits once you're aware that they
> represent ladders; however, the crossbar could just as
> easily have been used to indicate the tread of a stair).
[Taking the opportunity to slightly change the focus...]
Graphic is one issue, function another, probably even more
important.
One thing that I think should be changed in Nethack (and
in the variants, too, if they adopted that behaviour) is
the selection of the ladders/stairs when using the travel
command. Currently - say, when you're on a Wizard level -
and you travel to '>' you may be directed (depending on
whether the dungeon stairs or the tower ladder are first
scanned) to the interior of the wizard tower and travel
around just to stop at some undiggable wall. It would be
nice if the stair/ladder of the same region/sublevel is
selected where one is currently standing. (If there are
more stairs in the same region, as in the mines or Soko
branch levels, the closest should probably be selected
first.)
Janis
Pasi Kallinen
>
> One thing that I think should be changed in Nethack (and
> in the variants, too, if they adopted that behaviour) is
> the selection of the ladders/stairs when using the travel
> command. Currently - say, when you're on a Wizard level -
> and you travel to '>' you may be directed (depending on
> whether the dungeon stairs or the tower ladder are first
> scanned) to the interior of the wizard tower and travel
> around just to stop at some undiggable wall. It would be
> nice if the stair/ladder of the same region/sublevel is
> selected where one is currently standing. (If there are
> more stairs in the same region, as in the mines or Soko
> branch levels, the closest should probably be selected
> first.)
You are aware that pressing the same symbol again will choose
another location with the same symbol?
I'd say adding code just to make the location selection aware
of undiggable regions is too much work for too little gain,
and -- I suspect -- it'll leak information.
--
Pasi Kallinen
pa...@alt.org
http://bilious.homelinux.org/ -- NetHack Patch Database
Janis Papanagnou
> Janis Papanagnou <janis_pa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> One thing that I think should be changed in Nethack (and
>> in the variants, too, if they adopted that behaviour) is
>> the selection of the ladders/stairs when using the travel
>> command. Currently - say, when you're on a Wizard level -
>> and you travel to '>' you may be directed (depending on
>> whether the dungeon stairs or the tower ladder are first
>> scanned) to the interior of the wizard tower and travel
>> around just to stop at some undiggable wall. It would be
>> nice if the stair/ladder of the same region/sublevel is
>> selected where one is currently standing. (If there are
>> more stairs in the same region, as in the mines or Soko
>> branch levels, the closest should probably be selected
>> first.)
>
> You are aware that pressing the same symbol again will choose
> another location with the same symbol?
Sure I am aware of that.
The problem is noticeable especially if you're typing fast.
But why not enhance the interface. Currently if you travel
that way with a misplaced/mis-selected cursor the travel
command will start to move you to a location where you can
never get to; and never intended to go, because there's not
even a path.
> I'd say adding code just to make the location selection aware
> of undiggable regions is too much work for too little gain,
Is it? - The shortest path algorithm(s) is(are) already
implemented and used for performing the travel command; so
why not use that for the cursor placement as well. Or make
the travel command work in a more sophisticated way.
> and -- I suspect -- it'll leak information.
Would it?
Janis
RjY
[...]
>It would be nice if the stair/ladder of the same region/sublevel is
>selected where one is currently standing. (If there are more stairs in
>the same region, as in the mines or Soko branch levels, the closest
>should probably be selected first.)
Crawl does this e.g. on the map overview screen if you press keys that
cycle through features (like > or <), it only cycles through the ones
you can currently walk to without having to leave that dungeon level.
David Ploog
This is sometimes inconvenient on its own: Crawl autotravel will go
through another level if that's the only way to get to a spot on your
level. Not being able to quickly select stairs in another bubble is
annoying at times.
Rast
> > Altar: greek letter small pi: p (its surface is flat, isn't it?)
>
> I don't think that the symbols used in NetHack *need* to resemble the
> object they represent in the real world.
>
> As Benjamin already pointed out, small pi is one of those characters
> whose visual depiction is highly font dependent.
I like the plus-minus symbol: ±
In pretty much any font, it's simply the vanilla altar (or iron chain)
with a cross on top. Of course pagan nethack deities wouldn't really
have Christian imagery on their altars, but nevertheless it's a good
representation for a generic altar.
--
"It's only possible to betray where loyalty is due," said Sandy.
"Well, wasn't it due to Miss Brodie?"
"Only up to a point," said Sandy.
- Muriel Spark
Janis Papanagnou
>>> Altar: greek letter small pi: p (its surface is flat, isn't it?)
> I like the plus-minus symbol: ±
>
> In pretty much any font, it's simply the vanilla altar (or iron chain)
> with a cross on top. Of course pagan nethack deities wouldn't really
> have Christian imagery on their altars, but nevertheless it's a good
> representation for a generic altar.
Hmm.. - I wonder whether non-Christian people (and I surely abstain from
calling those religions or people "pagans") wouldn't be offended by that
symbol. Maybe the same with the simple cross symbol proposed for graves.
I had the impression that Nethack tried to be neutral in that respect.
Janis
Jorgen Grahn
> On 01.02.2011 00:06, Rast wrote:
>>>> Altar: greek letter small pi: p (its surface is flat, isn't it?)
>>> [...]
>> In pretty much any font, it's simply the vanilla altar (or iron chain)
>> with a cross on top. Of course pagan nethack deities wouldn't really
>> have Christian imagery on their altars, but nevertheless it's a good
>> representation for a generic altar.
>
> Hmm.. - I wonder whether non-Christian people (and I surely abstain from
> calling those religions or people "pagans")
He was talking about "pagan nethack deities". Surely the few followers of
Crom and Loki are used to being called "pagans". ;-)
/Jorgen
PS. Fun fact: "pagan" excludes Christians, but also Muslims and Jews.
I.e. most of the easily offended people.
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
John Gordon
> PS. Fun fact: "pagan" excludes Christians, but also Muslims and Jews.
> I.e. most of the easily offended people.
If you exclude most of the world's population, then sure, you're excluding
most of the easily offended people.
You're also excluding most left-handed people, most people with names
starting with "B", most people with tattoos, and any other random trait
you'd care to name.
I wonder what your point was.
--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
gor...@panix.com B is for Basil, assaulted by bears
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"
Doug Freyburger
> Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>
>> Hmm.. - I wonder whether non-Christian people (and I surely abstain from
>> calling those religions or people "pagans")
>
> He was talking about "pagan nethack deities". Surely the few followers of
> Crom and Loki are used to being called "pagans". ;-)
Modern followers of Loki or Thor tend to prefer Heathen to Pagan. Pagan
is for the modern followers of Jupiter. Southerners. We northerns use a
different word. Both words do mean "country folks", though.
Nethack is not the real world. Modern heathens generally won't care if
their altars in the game have a plus sign. I don't care. When I asked
Thor if he cared his response was he wants another coffee or ale. Huh.
I'll take that as he's not interested in the topic. ;^) Thor is like
that on a lot of topics, but he's present so often when asked.
Jorgen Grahn
> In <slrnimcuus.1...@frailea.sa.invalid> Jorgen Grahn <grahn...@snipabacken.se> writes:
>
>> PS. Fun fact: "pagan" excludes Christians, but also Muslims and Jews.
>> I.e. most of the easily offended people.
>
> If you exclude most of the world's population, then sure, you're excluding
> most of the easily offended people.
>
> You're also excluding most left-handed people, most people with names
> starting with "B", most people with tattoos, and any other random trait
> you'd care to name.
>
> I wonder what your point was.
That the word "pagan" excludes those three religions. Nothing more.
/Jorgen
My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
wrote:
>PS. Fun fact: "pagan" excludes Christians, but also Muslims and Jews.
> I.e. most of the easily offended people.
You're an idiot. Catholics are the biggest pagan mode Christians in
the world.
Scripted prayers (and responses) are not genuine.
Muslims can be argued as being the same with their ritualized 'rules'
as well.
My Name Is Tzu How Do You Do
wrote:
>That the word "pagan" excludes those three religions. Nothing more.
>
>/Jorgen
And you are an idiot, and there are no exclusions, and you need not
spew stupidity any more.
Kogut
wrote:
I think there may be hard to find grave-like symbol not connected with
one of religions.
Janis Papanagnou
> On 1 Lut, 00:35, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>> On 01.02.2011 00:06, Rast wrote:
>>
>>>>> Altar: greek letter small pi: p (its surface is flat, isn't it?)
>>>> [...]
>>> I like the plus-minus symbol: ±
>>
>>> In pretty much any font, it's simply the vanilla altar (or iron chain)
>>> with a cross on top. Of course pagan nethack deities wouldn't really
>>> have Christian imagery on their altars, but nevertheless it's a good
>>> representation for a generic altar.
>>
>> Hmm.. - I wonder whether non-Christian people (and I surely abstain from
>> calling those religions or people "pagans") wouldn't be offended by that
>> symbol. Maybe the same with the simple cross symbol proposed for graves.
>> I had the impression that Nethack tried to be neutral in that respect.
>
> one of religions.
There's often a (vertically or horizontally oriented) stone slab on graved,
so probably a flipped U, maybe the mathematical set intersection symbol ∩ ,
would be a fitting and an appropriately neutral choice?
Janis
MadManMoon
wrote:
>On 1 Lut, 00:35, Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>> On 01.02.2011 00:06, Rast wrote:
>>
>> >>> Altar: greek letter small pi: p (its surface is flat, isn't it?)
>> >> [...]
>> > I like the plus-minus symbol: ą
>>
>> > In pretty much any font, it's simply the vanilla altar (or iron chain)
>> > with a cross on top. Of course pagan nethack deities wouldn't really
>> > have Christian imagery on their altars, but nevertheless it's a good
>> > representation for a generic altar.
>>
>> Hmm.. - I wonder whether non-Christian people (and I surely abstain from
>> calling those religions or people "pagans") wouldn't be offended by that
>> symbol. Maybe the same with the simple cross symbol proposed for graves.
>> I had the impression that Nethack tried to be neutral in that respect.
>>
>> Janis
>
>I think there may be hard to find grave-like symbol not connected with
>one of religions.
Head on a stick?
Cannibals! Do they have a religion?
Rast
> > I think there may be hard to find grave-like symbol not connected with
> > one of religions.
>
> There's often a (vertically or horizontally oriented) stone slab on graved,
> would be a fitting and an appropriately neutral choice?
I've been using that one for graves for years now and I like it a lot.