Ford F250 Starter problem

[Gunner]

My roommate has a '97 F250 7.2L gas, XLT 4 door pickup with a starter
problem.

She hits start..the starter solenoid on the fender well clicks..no
start.

I shorted across the primary power leads of the starter solenoid..no
start.

I had her hold the key in the start position and crawled underneith
and shorted across the two big nuts on the starter.... and it started.

I didnt think at the time to measure the small red wire power to the
solenoid ON the starter and only realized it as I sat down to type
this..damnit. I should know better..sigh

Assuming there is a start signal TO the bendix solenoid "coil"...can
they be repaired or is a starter replacement required.

I used to be pretty damned good at this sort of thing..the
stroke...shrug

Hell..I cant even remember the name for the coil that drives the
bendix.

Or am I missing something? This LOOKs like a basic starter with
switch operated solenoid ON the starter...powered by the small red
wire...but come to think of it..that fender mounted solenoid...wtf?

Sigh.

Help?


Gunner

The methodology of the left has always been:

1. Lie
2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

[John B.]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 22:15:47 -0800, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>My roommate has a '97 F250 7.2L gas, XLT 4 door pickup with a starter
>problem.
>
>She hits start..the starter solenoid on the fender well clicks..no
>start.
>
>I shorted across the primary power leads of the starter solenoid..no
>start.
>
>I had her hold the key in the start position and crawled underneith
>and shorted across the two big nuts on the starter.... and it started.
>
>I didnt think at the time to measure the small red wire power to the
>solenoid ON the starter and only realized it as I sat down to type
>this..damnit. I should know better..sigh
>
>Assuming there is a start signal TO the bendix solenoid "coil"...can
>they be repaired or is a starter replacement required.
>
>I used to be pretty damned good at this sort of thing..the
>stroke...shrug
>
>Hell..I cant even remember the name for the coil that drives the
>bendix.

They don't even have a "bendix" any more :-)

>
>Or am I missing something? This LOOKs like a basic starter with
>switch operated solenoid ON the starter...powered by the small red
>wire...but come to think of it..that fender mounted solenoid...wtf?
>
>Sigh.
>
>Help?
>
>
>Gunner
>
>The methodology of the left has always been:
>
>1. Lie
>2. Repeat the lie as many times as possible
>3. Have as many people repeat the lie as often as possible
>4. Eventually, the uninformed believe the lie
>5. The lie will then be made into some form oflaw
>6. Then everyone must conform to the lie

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Dennis]

Gunner, this is your first half on topic post to the group in ages & for
a change you didn't spam it across half a dozen unrelated groups
involving politics, guns or survivalist crap!

When its guns, politics or your survivalist BS it ends up here? What gives?

You are doing my head in!

[Jim Wilkins]

"Gunner" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:qr1hh850g00obldaa...@4ax.com...

> My roommate has a '97 F250 7.2L gas, XLT 4 door pickup with a
> starter

> problem....

> Or am I missing something? This LOOKs like a basic starter with
> switch operated solenoid ON the starter...powered by the small red
> wire...but come to think of it..that fender mounted solenoid...wtf?

> Gunner

Dunno about yours, but my 91 Ford has needed a new fender-mounted
solenoid and a new brush assembly in the starter motor. When the motor
brushes wore to their stops, vibration from messing around down there
apparently caused them to make contact again, briefly.

The factory manual for Aerostar/Explorer/Ranger shows starters both
with and without an external solenoid.
jsw

[Ignoramus22507]

Those starters are dirt cheap rebuilt. I have three reman ford
starters in my ebay store myself and I am asking 25 each.

D2AF-11131-CA 8A, E4TF-11131-AA, 3221

i

[Gunner]

Actually its not. But evidently you filter out much of it.

Now...do you actually know anything about the topic or are you simply
posting off topic?

<VBG>

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> fired this volley in
news:mt2ih8tvpootd1v42...@4ax.com:

> Gunner

I caught the tail of someone saying that the Bendix mechanism is no
longer used.

Except for "starterators", what starters don't have an engagement
mechanism that is or is like a Bendix?

Lloyd

[Gunner]

I was kinda wondering about that myself.....

[Gunner]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 22:15:47 -0800, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>My roommate has a '97 F250 7.2L gas, XLT 4 door pickup with a starter
>problem.
>
>She hits start..the starter solenoid on the fender well clicks..no
>start.
>
>I shorted across the primary power leads of the starter solenoid..no
>start.
>
>I had her hold the key in the start position and crawled underneith
>and shorted across the two big nuts on the starter.... and it started.
>
>I didnt think at the time to measure the small red wire power to the
>solenoid ON the starter and only realized it as I sat down to type
>this..damnit. I should know better..sigh
>
>Assuming there is a start signal TO the bendix solenoid "coil"...can
>they be repaired or is a starter replacement required.
>
>I used to be pretty damned good at this sort of thing..the
>stroke...shrug
>
>Hell..I cant even remember the name for the coil that drives the
>bendix.
>
>Or am I missing something? This LOOKs like a basic starter with
>switch operated solenoid ON the starter...powered by the small red
>wire...but come to think of it..that fender mounted solenoid...wtf?
>
>Sigh.
>
>Help?

Some assistance is required in defining terms.

The black round thingy on the fenderwell with a battery lead coming
in, a cable going out to the starter and a wire to operate it , is
called a what? Starter Relay? Solenoid?
Big honking relay?

The "electricly engaged" gizmo on the starter itself is called a what?

Starter Solenoid? Electric Bendix? Thingabobbie? Hodendragon?
Gizmatso?

[Rick]

"Gunner" <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:rd7ih8libpcj7l0f5...@4ax.com...

Check your email...........

[Doug Miller]

Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:qr1hh850g00obldaa...@4ax.com:

> My roommate has a '97 F250 7.2L gas, XLT 4 door pickup with a starter
> problem.
>
> She hits start..the starter solenoid on the fender well clicks..no
> start.

That's the starter *relay*, not the solenoid. The solenoid is on (or in) the starter.

>
> I shorted across the primary power leads of the starter solenoid..no
> start.

*relay

What position was the ignition key in when you did this? I'm betting it wasn't Start.

> I had her hold the key in the start position and crawled underneith
> and shorted across the two big nuts on the starter.... and it started.

*that's* the solenoid. Sounds like the starter relay is bad -- shorting across the solenoid
terminals bypasses the relay.

> I didnt think at the time to measure the small red wire power to the
> solenoid ON the starter and only realized it as I sat down to type
> this..damnit. I should know better..sigh

Do so. You probably will find 0V.
[...]

> Hell..I cant even remember the name for the coil that drives the
> bendix.

It's called the solenoid. There is no such part as a "starter bendix" -- Bendix is a *brand
name* for various automotive parts.

>
> Or am I missing something? This LOOKs like a basic starter with
> switch operated solenoid ON the starter...powered by the small red
> wire...but come to think of it..that fender mounted solenoid...wtf?

Fender-mounted relay. It's quite common.

[Doug Miller]

Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in news:rd7ih8libpcj7l0f5pm5pljr7bdiimkudl@
4ax.com:

> Some assistance is required in defining terms.
>
> The black round thingy on the fenderwell with a battery lead coming
> in, a cable going out to the starter and a wire to operate it , is
> called a what? Starter Relay? Solenoid?
> Big honking relay?

Starter relay. And I think that's what went bad on your friend's truck.

>
> The "electricly engaged" gizmo on the starter itself is called a what?
>
> Starter Solenoid? Electric Bendix? Thingabobbie? Hodendragon?
> Gizmatso?

Starter solenoid.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 22:15:47 -0800, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>My roommate has a '97 F250 7.2L gas, XLT 4 door pickup with a starter
>problem.

7.5L V-8 gas?

>She hits start..the starter solenoid on the fender well clicks..no
>start.
>
>I shorted across the primary power leads of the starter solenoid..no
>start.
>
>I had her hold the key in the start position and crawled underneith
>and shorted across the two big nuts on the starter.... and it started.

Huh? Ford starters normally have one wire only to the starter. Are
you sure this wasn't a Chebby?

The Ford solenoid (starter relay) is fender-mounted and supplies hot
only when engaged. Crossing the battery cable should have turned it
over if it wasn't a starter problem.

>I didnt think at the time to measure the small red wire power to the
>solenoid ON the starter and only realized it as I sat down to type
>this..damnit. I should know better..sigh

Yeah, the small wire energizes the coil for the bendix. Shorting
between the two large nuts should have -spun- the starter, not started
the truck. Very strange setup.

I was a Ford man but got out of the bidness in '86 with the back
injury.

>Assuming there is a start signal TO the bendix solenoid "coil"...can
>they be repaired or is a starter replacement required.
>
>I used to be pretty damned good at this sort of thing..the
>stroke...shrug


>Hell..I cant even remember the name for the coil that drives the
>bendix.

That would normally be the starter solenoid. Energizing the coil will
kick the bendix out to engage the ring gear and the contacts at the
back of the solenoid (which are closed by the kick-in) will spin-up
the starter. The way you tested it showed that the solenoid on the
starter is bad. Go with a lifetime-guaranteed rebuilt starter &
solenoid combo from Autozone. I had semi-bad luck with most rebuilds
from most shops until I found those. It's a new solenoid on a rebuilt
starter, with new bushings and freshly turned commutator.

>Or am I missing something? This LOOKs like a basic starter with
>switch operated solenoid ON the starter...powered by the small red

Huh! Why did Ford go to chebby-style starters?

>wire...but come to think of it..that fender mounted solenoid...wtf?

Good question. Backup relay for the starter?!? Has Ford cut their
costs by hiring Chebby engineers? <shudder>

--
In an industrial society which confuses work and productivity, the
necessity of producing has always been an enemy of the desire to create.
-- Raoul Vaneigem

[whoyakidding's ghost]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 22:15:47 -0800, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:


>

>I used to be pretty damned good at this sort of thing
>..the stroke...shrug

No, you were never any better than you are now. That's crystal clear
from reading this hilarious report of your imaginary diagnostic
skills.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.crafts.metalworking/msg/7ea5a4fb45355771
How many cans of PB blaster have you emptied on the starter so far?

I suggest you trade in your "board level" "electronics shop" for a
Clymer manual, and pay the nearest teenage gearhead to rescue you. In
the few minutes he takes to sort out the problem you might be able to
fit in a stupid yarn about rescuing your Victoria's Secret model
girlfriend from the Hell's Angels or something.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 08:34:17 -0800, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Virtually ALL starters today are "pre-engage" starters. A Bendix is
an "inertiaEngage" device.

The old ford starters with the hickey on the side were a pre-engage
starter- the shoe was pulled in by the magnetic field of the one field
coil. Most pre-engage starters use a solenoid. A bendix used a helix
and engaged due to the inertia of the drive spinning it out the helix
as the armature jumped into rotation.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 08:39:49 -0800, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

The fender mounted round black thingy is referred to in the trade as a
"solenoid switch" - which is really a "honking big relay"

TheElectriclly engaged gizmo on the starter is generally reffered to
as the "starter solenoid" or "engagement solenoid".

Techinally, a pre-engage starter does not have a "bendix" as "bendix"
was a trade name for an INERTIA starter drive.

Generally on a vehicle using a solenoid applied pre-engage AND a
fender mounted solenoid switch, the apply solenoid coil is connected
to the main battery terminal of the starter (apply solenoid) and is
energized when power is applied to the starter by the solenoid switch.

Chrysler bacl in the sixties and seventies with their "high park
hummingbird" gear reduction starter connected the battery to the
contact of the solenoid and used a fender mounted relay to provide the
sizeable current required to pull in the apply solenoid without
passing all of that current through the starter/ignition switch and
the clutch or neutral safety switch.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

By the description that is starting to come together hear, I would
say the contacts in the sterter mounted solenoid (apply solenoid)
have failed. The fender mounted starter solenoid switch and the
starter mounted starter apply solenoid are connected in series. With
the key in the start position, the fender mounted solenoid (relay)
pulls in and sends power down the heavy wire to the starter, and the
starter mounted apply solenoid pulls in, pre-engaging the starter
drive. It is SUPPOSED to also connect the power from the stud with the
battery cable on it to the stud where the starter fields connect to
the solenoid - but it doesn't - so jumping the 2 big contacts on the
starter with the starter relay energized starts the truck.

Almost certain there is a problem in the starter apply solenoid that
can be repaired by replacing the starter mounted apply solenoid.

Clear as mud now?????

[David Lesher]

Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> writes:


>Some assistance is required in defining terms.

>The black round thingy on the fenderwell with a battery lead coming
>in, a cable going out to the starter and a wire to operate it , is
>called a what? Starter Relay? Solenoid?
>Big honking relay?

Part of the problem is the language. To greasemonkeys, solenoid
means 1+ things.

On most cars, the big wire goes to the starter case, and so does
the small wire. The solenoid within is two things: a relay to
switch the current, and means to push the gear into the ring
gear.

Traditionally, Ford did not do that; they put the relay on the
fender, and used a spiral-threaded gadget called a Bendix to
automagically extend the output shaft to engage the ring gear.
Those starters may not have a small wire. And then some people
also call that fender relay a solenoid......

I have no idea if your vehicle has both or... but that
should help you grok the issue.

Take a voltmeter, put on the starter stud, and measure while
{not}cranking. That's clue #1.




--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Phil Kangas]

"Gunner" <

> On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 22:15:47 -0800, Gunner >

Relay: a low power electrical circuit that
controls a high power circuit.

Solenoid: an electrical circuit controls a
mechanical function.

[PrecisionmachinisT]

"Ignoramus22507" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.22507.invalid> wrote in message news:1o2dnU36NbnlaoXM...@giganews.com...

Your UPS shipping is over twice the UPS flat rate amount.

[Stanley Schaefer]

> mechanical function.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well, the starter relay is called a "solenoid" in well over half the
Ford manuals I have, also on the online parts sites. That's because
it IS a solenoid, has a thick copper disk on the core inside that
shorts out those big copper terminals to supply starting current. On
later versions, there are various other smaller terminals running to
other bits and bobs. At one time these solenoids/relays could be
taken apart, the contacts reversed in their holes in the case and the
disk flipped to get more life out of them.. Riveted together now,
good luck with it! If your time is worth anything, get a new one.
They run $10-$20, depending on who's doing the raping and where the
things were made, normally not the US now. Can be had off the inner
fenders or firewalls of most Ford vehicles in the wrecking yards for
cheap, they haven't changed the design much in decades, used one of
two configurations on most vehicles. The engagement solenoid on those
starters so equipped is also called the "starter solenoid", so if
you're looking for parts, you have to make it clear which part you're
looking for. Ford did make starters without an engagement solenoid,
they used a pivoted pole piece that flipped the starter gear out via a
bellcrank arrangement. Has a hump on the side, the pole piece cover,
instead of a tubular solenoid casing. Haven't seen one of those in
years, though.

The O.P.s primary problem is the starter relay/solenoid, but if it's
going, the starter might not be far behind. Brushes do wear, bearings
do give out. Had one quit in the grocery store parking lot, got out
and gave it a hammer rap, that jarred the brushes enough to start it
one more time, next stop was the car parts place, left the engine
running. Got to listen to what the buggy is telling you...

Stan

[Gunner]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 11:45:46 -0500, "Rick" <itsno...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Got em and thanks! It appears that the solenoid on the starter itself
is flakey.

Much obliged!

Gunner

[Gunner]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:03:05 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<doug_at_mil...@example.com> wrote:

>Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in news:rd7ih8libpcj7l0f5pm5pljr7bdiimkudl@
>4ax.com:
>
>> Some assistance is required in defining terms.
>>
>> The black round thingy on the fenderwell with a battery lead coming
>> in, a cable going out to the starter and a wire to operate it , is
>> called a what? Starter Relay? Solenoid?
>> Big honking relay?
>
>Starter relay. And I think that's what went bad on your friend's truck.

Nope..that works just hunky. Pulled the starter and bench tested
everything..it appears that the starter solenoid itself is "iffy"
Only two screws holding it to the starter body. removed it, appled
power to it..and sometimes it kicks..other times it doesnt. One of
the 5/16 copper primary power bolts is loose. I suspect its not making
good contact inside. I spritzed around and down it as best as I
could..couldnt get the shell off of it and then put a good nut on it
and tightened it down and now it works properly. Im still a bit
nervous about reinstalling it on the starter and putting it back in
the truck. Im afraid she will go somewhere and need a tow back to the
house.

>>
>> The "electricly engaged" gizmo on the starter itself is called a what?
>>
>> Starter Solenoid? Electric Bendix? Thingabobbie? Hodendragon?
>> Gizmatso?
>
>Starter solenoid.

Thanks!

Gunner

[Gunner]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:01:01 +0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
<doug_at_mil...@example.com> wrote:

>Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:qr1hh850g00obldaa...@4ax.com:
>
>> My roommate has a '97 F250 7.2L gas, XLT 4 door pickup with a starter
>> problem.
>>
>> She hits start..the starter solenoid on the fender well clicks..no
>> start.
>
>That's the starter *relay*, not the solenoid. The solenoid is on (or in) the starter.
>>
>> I shorted across the primary power leads of the starter solenoid..no
>> start.
>
>*relay
>
>What position was the ignition key in when you did this? I'm betting it wasn't Start.
>
>> I had her hold the key in the start position and crawled underneith
>> and shorted across the two big nuts on the starter.... and it started.
>
>*that's* the solenoid. Sounds like the starter relay is bad -- shorting across the solenoid
>terminals bypasses the relay.
>
> > I didnt think at the time to measure the small red wire power to the
>> solenoid ON the starter and only realized it as I sat down to type
>> this..damnit. I should know better..sigh
>
>Do so. You probably will find 0V.

I do occasionally. It appears the switch in the steering column is
also flaky. It gives me a regular 13vts when in neutral and kicking
the key to start engagement portion. Occasionally 4-11volts in
Park..other times..nada.

So as long as she can fire it up in Neutral...that will work ok.

Its the starter solenoid thats iffy.

>[...]
>> Hell..I cant even remember the name for the coil that drives the
>> bendix.
>
>It's called the solenoid. There is no such part as a "starter bendix" -- Bendix is a *brand
>name* for various automotive parts.
>>
>> Or am I missing something? This LOOKs like a basic starter with
>> switch operated solenoid ON the starter...powered by the small red
>> wire...but come to think of it..that fender mounted solenoid...wtf?
>
>Fender-mounted relay. It's quite common.

Thanks!!

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2013-02-11, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 11:45:46 -0500, "Rick" <itsno...@gmail.com>
> wrote:

[ ... ]

>>Check your email...........
>>
>
> Got em and thanks! It appears that the solenoid on the starter itself
> is flakey.

The solenoid or the contacts which it operates. It is
apparently both a solenoid for engaging the starter to the ring gear,
and also a relay, closing heavy duty contacts.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

[John B.]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 09:31:47 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
<lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:

The "Bendix" was a system to engage and disengage the starter motor
from the engine. It consisted of a helical "spline" on the shaft and a
internally splined pinion gear. When the starter motor started to turn
inertia causes the pinion to remain stationary, initially. The helical
spline caused the pinion to move along the shaft and engage the "ring
gear" on the flywheel, thus rotating the engine. The pinion and the
starter motor shaft were connected together by the "bendix spring"
that served to retract the pinion when the speed of the flywheel
mounted gear exceeded the speed of the pinion.

The Bendix system was apparently phased out some 50 years ago and
replaced by an overrunning clutch design.

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starter_(engine) for more details.

--
Cheers,

John B.

[Gunner]

Thaniks for the info. I only rememberd the old starters with the
starter conneced directly to the battery and the solenoid wire from
the ignition switch fireing everything off. MY 2001 Ranger is done
the same "old way" as is the wifes Saturn.

So I was a bit confused when I found the starter relay on the firewall
as I dont recall ever seeing it done that way before.

Thanks guys!

Gunner

[Gunner]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 09:08:02 -0800, Larry Jaques
<lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 22:15:47 -0800, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>My roommate has a '97 F250 7.2L gas, XLT 4 door pickup with a starter
>>problem.
>
>7.5L V-8 gas?
>
>
>>She hits start..the starter solenoid on the fender well clicks..no
>>start.
>>
>>I shorted across the primary power leads of the starter solenoid..no
>>start.
>>
>>I had her hold the key in the start position and crawled underneith
>>and shorted across the two big nuts on the starter.... and it started.
>
>Huh? Ford starters normally have one wire only to the starter. Are
>you sure this wasn't a Chebby?

F-250, 7.5 engine with a "rebuilt" starter in it. Has two wires...the
small wire controling the starter solenoid and a big one carrying the
load from the "starter relay" on the firewall.

[Gunner]

On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 08:15:04 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Phased out 50 yrs ago? Odd...I see them with some regularity on
vehicles made in the 1970s. I had a Dodge Charger ...a 1973 model
that had one.

Humm...thats not all that far from 50 yrs ago..is it? Sigh.....

[Doug Miller]

Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com> wrote in news:bjqjh8pgapbj49b770lh6h5eueet5c603i@
4ax.com:

> Phased out 50 yrs ago? Odd...I see them with some regularity on
> vehicles made in the 1970s. I had a Dodge Charger ...a 1973 model
> that had one.

No, you didn't. Chrysler starters of the 60s and 70s had a simple plunger solenoid.

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com> fired this volley in
news:f15jh85k8qmkieua0...@4ax.com:

> The Bendix system was apparently phased out some 50 years ago and
> replaced by an overrunning clutch design.
>

Do you work on a lot of engines? The Bendix is alive and healthy.

LLoyd

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Doug Miller <doug_at_mil...@example.com> fired this volley in
news:XnsA1654371B3A...@78.46.70.116:

> No, you didn't. Chrysler starters of the 60s and 70s had a simple
> plunger solenoid.

Most solenoids - even those acting as starter contactors - are "simple
plunger solenoids".

I have four cars, three lawnmowers, one tractor, and one forklift.
The four cars are all under 15 years old, and two of them have Bendix-
style starters. Both lawnmowers are under 5 years old, and do. So do
the tractor and forklift.

Even starters where the solenoid "helps" the pinion out with a fork and
spring-loaded pusher (not the positive pre-engagement style) often still
have the Bendix helix to help force the pinion back out of engagement
after the motor starts.

My Toyota van and Mitsubishi Galant have overrunning sprag clutches with
a forked solenoid and helper springs for a "modified pre-engagement".

I don't disagree that there are now other designs than the Bendix (maybe
more than not), but it's a little over-reaching to say it was
"abandoned".

LLoyd

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2013 23:10:15 -0800, Gunner <gunne...@gmail.com>
wrote:

And the charger in '73 had a pre=engage starter with over-running
clutch - NOT a "bendix"

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Nope - the genuine "bendix" style drive is pretty well limited to
things like snow-blowers etc with 120 volt starters. Virtually ALL
automotive starters use pre-engage starters with over-running
clutches, Don't know when I last saw an actual Bendix style drive on
an automobile - but it goes back to the seventies at least.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 08:56:15 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
<lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:

>Doug Miller <doug_at_mil...@example.com> fired this volley in
>news:XnsA1654371B3A...@78.46.70.116:
>
>> No, you didn't. Chrysler starters of the 60s and 70s had a simple
>> plunger solenoid.
>
>Most solenoids - even those acting as starter contactors - are "simple
>plunger solenoids".
>
>I have four cars, three lawnmowers, one tractor, and one forklift.
>The four cars are all under 15 years old, and two of them have Bendix-
>style starters. Both lawnmowers are under 5 years old, and do. So do
>the tractor and forklift.
>

What kind of car?
And what forklift?

>Even starters where the solenoid "helps" the pinion out with a fork and
>spring-loaded pusher (not the positive pre-engagement style) often still
>have the Bendix helix to help force the pinion back out of engagement
>after the motor starts.

Vast majority have one way clutch

[Uffe Bærentsen]

Maybe that is the case with US starters.
However the vast majority of European an Japanese starters today use a
combination of both solenoid/pre-engage and Bendix.



--
Uffe

[Uffe Bærentsen]

Den 12-02-2013 18:42, cl...@snyder.on.ca skrev:

[John B.]

Well, I can't comment on all Japanese cars but certainly the Toyota
sedan I bought new in 1990 did not have a "bendix" nor did the Honda
Civic I bought my wife in '95 nor the current Honda Jazz (probably
"Fit" to you), nor my present 10 year old Isuzu pickup.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The starter drive on a Nippondenso geared starter LOOKS like a Bendix,
but what the helix does is turns the gear as it engages to prevent the
teeth from butting. This is accomplished on a direct drive starter
by the current flowing through the pull-in coil of the solenoid which
starts the armature turning as the gear is pre-engaged. The starter
does not start to crank under full power untill the gear is virtually
fully engaged.

On a reduction starter this system cannot be used . The motor is
geared very highly to the drive, so it would need to spin faster than
the current through the pull-in coil could turn it to assure the gear
turned enoug to avoid the teeth butting.

I recieved Toyota factory training on the Nippondenso geared starter
when it ws first introduced on the 4M engine in the 1972 1/2 Mark 2
Corona and it was very well explained at that time. The information is
actually available on line - oh the joys of the internet - at
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf.

So, as you can see, although it looks like a duck, it does't exactly
quack or crap like a duck.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

By the way - I'm more familliar with the Japanese way of doing
things than the American - having been a Toyota Tech since back in
1972, and a Toyota service manager for 10 years. - and as explained
in my last post - it is NOT a bendix (inertia) drive). It is a
pre-rotator on a pre-engaged gear reduction starter.

[Mike Spencer]

May I highjack this, since Gunner seems to have hit on a fix?

I have an '87 F-250 that won't start when it's hot. Let it sit days,
weeks, even months, indoors or out, and it fires right up. Even when
it's near 0F. Run it for a few minutes and it'll start again.

But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

Engine is a replacement, the smaller-than-original V-8 (I forget the
name/displacement) so the truck is a bit underpowered but starts and
runs fine except for this not-when-hot thing. I'm a former mechanic,
I've taken it to a guy who's good, we feel like we've tried and/or
replaced everything.

Know any magic tweaks or arcane bits of Ford lore that might help me?

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

[John B.]

On 13 Feb 2013 04:48:19 -0400, Mike Spencer

When I was a kid I had a Chevvy that did sort of the same thing. It
turned out to be the ignition coil.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Steve W.]

If it has the same style starter as a GM the problem is likely the same.
The starter solenoid is getting heat soaked and causing problems. The
trick on the GM units is to install a jumper strap across the large
terminals on the starter and install a Ford style starter solenoid on
the fender.


--
Steve W.

[Larry Jaques]

On 13 Feb 2013 04:48:19 -0400, Mike Spencer
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>

It sounds like worn bushings in the starter. Replace it with a decent
one after testing to prove it. Autozone has battery testers you can
use for free, but a regular VOM will do the trick for you. Good
starters won't pull the battery down to 4 or 6 volts during cranking
but bad ones will. Make sure your battery terminals and all battery
cable connections are good and clean, then do a voltage test.

Chebbys make that sound when they need more shims between the starter
and the block/bell-housing.

--
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

[Jim Wilkins]

"Larry Jaques" <lja...@invalid.diversifycomm.com> wrote in message
> ...Autozone has battery testers you can

> use for free, but a regular VOM will do the trick for you. Good
> starters won't pull the battery down to 4 or 6 volts during cranking
> but bad ones will. Make sure your battery terminals and all battery
> cable connections are good and clean, then do a voltage test.
>

The really quick, simple test is to hit the starter with the
headlights on, pointing at something light colored like the garage
door or a cardboard box so you can see how much they dim. Try it on a
vehicle that works to get an idea of how much dimming is normal.

They don't dim at all if the starter solenoid or relay is open, and go
dark for a battery with little remaining capacity or bad terminal
connections.
jsw

[Uffe Bærentsen]

Den 13-02-2013 03:13, cl...@snyder.on.ca skrev:
> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 22:39:21 +0100, Uffe B�rentsen
> <leiti_F...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Maybe that is the case with US starters.
>> However the vast majority of European an Japanese starters today use a
>> combination of both solenoid/pre-engage and Bendix.
> The starter drive on a Nippondenso geared starter LOOKS like a Bendix,
> but what the helix does is turns the gear as it engages to prevent the
> teeth from butting. This is accomplished on a direct drive starter
> by the current flowing through the pull-in coil of the solenoid which
> starts the armature turning as the gear is pre-engaged. The starter
> does not start to crank under full power untill the gear is virtually
> fully engaged.

Please don't tell this to the shitload of starters that go through my
workplace every day or I will get into big trouble.

> On a reduction starter this system cannot be used . The motor is
> geared very highly to the drive, so it would need to spin faster than
> the current through the pull-in coil could turn it to assure the gear
> turned enoug to avoid the teeth butting.

It IS used on many gearreduction starters.

> I recieved Toyota factory training on the Nippondenso geared starter
> when it ws first introduced on the 4M engine in the 1972 1/2 Mark 2
> Corona and it was very well explained at that time. The information is
> actually available on line - oh the joys of the internet - at
> http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf.
>
> So, as you can see, although it looks like a duck, it does't exactly
> quack or crap like a duck.

Ducks comes in a lot of sizes and colours ;-)



--
Uffe

[Uffe Bærentsen]

So we now have both "Genuine Bendix" and "Not Genuine Bendix" that react
in excact the same way but are different?

Sounds fishy to me and a lot of others.......

Maybe that is what Toyota says but that does not mean that it is the
only truth.


--
Uffe

[Wild_Bill]

Yep, 'ol Gummer comes to RCM for help, and I suspect that he never seeks any
help from the kook/fanatic groups he frequently cross-posts to.

He maintains a fuck you, deal-with-it attitude towards RCM in defense of all
his bullshit fanatic postings, which when RCM is included in the list of
groups ends up drawing more kook fuckups to include RCM in their list of
groups for their own twisted rantings.

Gummer likes to call "off-topic" when anyone replies with criticisim these
behaviors, as if anyone would agree with that.

But RCM is likely the only place he can go for help.. sadly, some RCM'ers do
offer help, otherwise Gummer would probably go away.
No, on second thought, he'd still try to peddle rusty/broken junk machines
here.

It's just too bad that RCM'ers don't reply with: fuck you, deal-with-it,
when he needs help.

--
WB
.........


"Dennis" <n...@non.com> wrote in message
news:Q8qdnX02qc0vf4XM...@westnet.com.au...
>
>
> Gunner, this is your first half on topic post to the group in ages & for a
> change you didn't spam it across half a dozen unrelated groups involving
> politics, guns or survivalist crap!
>
> When its guns, politics or your survivalist BS it ends up here? What
> gives?
>
> You are doing my head in!
>

[David Lesher]

Mike Spencer <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:


>But run it until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it
>behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump aaaa
>clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending on the
>outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas stations.

First, carry some water. When it fails, squirt the starter to cool it off.
{Or better, test at home & have hose...}

But even before.... does it draw current? Do lights go dim, etc?

I'd suspect: starter, connections to it, connections at battery INCLUDING the grounds.


--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On 13 Feb 2013 04:48:19 -0400, Mike Spencer
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>

Have you replaced the starter?

Also check for bad ground. When it doesn't start throw a booster cable
from neg batt terminal to the engine block clean ground.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:44:23 +0700, John B. <johnbs...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Impossible. The ignition coil will not prevent the starter from
cranking. It will make it not START, but not what the OP described.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 08:25:34 -0500, "Steve W." <csr...@NOTyahoo.com>
wrote:

The problem on the GM starters was the aluminum field coils. Not
aware of Ford using them - but it is possible.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:04:43 +0100, Uffe B�rentsen

There are several different starter drives that have been used over
the years. A true bendix has a problem in that it disengages if the
engine half-starts. This problem was solved back in the early sixties
by the introduction of the (Bendix) "follo-thru" drive. This was a
modification of the "bendix". All true "bendix" and "follo-thru"
drives have a large drive spring and the drive is fastened to the
armature shaft by a pin. The original Bendix has a counter-weighted
drive gesr to p[rovide the inertia required to spin the gear out the
helix.
The "bendix" drive was very common on Lucas and Bosch starters in the
fifties and sixties, and some early autolite/prestolite starters.

The "follo-thru" gets an over-running clutch with a centrifugal
lockout pin (or more) that hold the drive in gear untill the starter
stops turning or the engine reaches a minimum of 400 RPM. The
follo-thru starter drive was common on Prestolite light duty starters,
while their heavy duty starters were more like a Delco, with a
solenoid engaged (pre-engage) drive with over-running clutch.
Pre-engage starters usually have a helix of some sort on the starter
armature shaft.

The bendix and follow-thru helix is on the gear side of the bendix
spring, and is part of the drive.

NONE of the currently produced Japaneseor european starters, to the
best of my knowledge, use a starter drive with a "bendix spring" -
which is a unique and essential part of a "bendix" drive.

I could explain in detail how the Bendix drive works, but at this
point it is enough to say there are NO Bendix drives used on ANY
pre-engage starters - or on ANY current production automotive engine
produced in the Americas, Europe, Australia or Japan/Korea/Thailand.

Perhaps in China, India or North Korea or some other technological
backwater - but these are not vehicles available for general sale in
the primary markets mentioned - europe, Japan, or the Americas.

[Stormin Mormon]

Please list some of the things you tried, or replaced.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Mike Spencer" <m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote in message
news:87wqucd2...@nudel.nodomain.nowhere...

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:27:00 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen
<leiti_F...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Den 13-02-2013 03:15, cl...@snyder.on.ca skrev:

>> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 22:40:37 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen

Keep talking Uffe, your ignorance is showing.

There is no such thing as a "bendix" drive on a pre-engage starter. A
"bendix" drive is, by definition, a "self engaging" starter drive.

There are 2 basic kinds of "bendix" drive - the early "bendix" whick
had a bad habit of kicking out when an engine fired but did not start,
and a "bendix follo-thru" which stayed engaged untill the engine
started and ran.

I am a retired automotive mechanic, automotive service manager, high
school auto instructor, and automotive trade instructor and I know
what I'm talking about, and still have the texts that were used in
both educational levels, as well as numerous factory shop and training
manuals at my disposal, as well as what is available on the net.

[Michael A. Terrell]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> I recieved Toyota factory training on the Nippondenso geared starter
> when it ws first introduced on the 4M engine in the 1972 1/2 Mark 2
> Corona and it was very well explained at that time. The information is
> actually available on line - oh the joys of the internet - at
> http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h7.pdf.

I had a '73 Corona. It was the worst piece of shit I ever drove.
That includes the Opel Caddette that had the hood latch pull out of the
body, at 55 MPH on I-75 in Cincinatti.

[Michael A. Terrell]

I had that problem on a '66 GTO. I replaced the factory battery
cables with #1 AWG welding cable and never had any more trouble. The
mechanics couldn't agree what the problem was. Bad battery. (new) Bad
starter. (Rebuilt it myself) Bad Solenoid. (New)


I measured the drop across the battery cables and found a total drop
of nine volts. The new cables reduced that to about 1.5 volts.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

The Corona and the Mark 2 were totally different vehicles - but early
'70s Toyotas, and any other Japanese cars, were quite substandard to
American vehicles - but no worse than british or German vehicles of
the time. In only a few short years, that changed SIGNIFICANTLY.

[Martin Eastburn]

Is it a temp sensor that the computer is sensing and won't let
you burn up the engine ?

A sensor might be covered in oil / grime and gets hot and can't
cool easily.

I'd look at computer concepts and not mechanical ones. Today's
Truck/car has more and more computer controls and mommy may I stuff.

Martin

[Michael A. Terrell]

The disk brakes on that car were definately substandard. Hit them
hard in reverse, and the pads popped out even with good rotors & new
pads. Toyota told me that only 1000 '73 Coronas were imported, and
reqquired major redesigns rthe following year. No parts were availible,
without a six to nine month wait to get them from Japan. They wanted
$750 (US) for the speedometer cable. They wanted $600 for a seat cover
for the lower half of the rear seat. I got pulled over one morning (5
AM) by an Ohio State Highway Patrolman for speeding. I told him I was
unable to find parts for the speedometer, and the dealer didn't want to
order the part. He called me a #$%^&*( Liar. Then he aimed his
flashlight at it and asked, Is that a '73 Corona? I said yes. He
turned red and said, I owned one of these pieces of $#%^&*( crap. Get
out of here, and be more careful.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:22:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"

Funny thing, in Canada all of the parts were readilly available - and
actually reasonably priced. By 1974 they had the brake problem sorted
out - all replacement pads in Canada had the fix

[Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:49:18 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:27:00 +0100, Uffe B�rentsen

><leiti_F...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Den 13-02-2013 03:15, cl...@snyder.on.ca skrev:

>>> On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 22:40:37 +0100, Uffe B�rentsen

Uffe, there's a lot of things that look similar, work similar, but
when you tear them apart and look closer the innards are totally
different.

You can't call it a Bendix Drive starter unless it's the Original and
Patented Design - what you see out there now is NOT. "Close" only
counts in Horseshoes and Hand Grenades...

Sometimes people reverse-engineer things like the original Bendix
Drive to get around patents, sometimes to fix problems like the ones
that made Bendix modify the design themselves to get the Follo-Thru.

Sometimes another company thinks they have a better way and it's
different enough that there are no patent questions - Ford's moving
pole-shoe 'solenoid' design - Ugly, but it works.

And sometimes they actually do come up with an even better way to do
it. Looks the same, basic operation is the same, lasts longer, less
kick-outs.

--<< Bruce >>--

[Uffe Bærentsen]

Den 14-02-2013 00:43, cl...@snyder.on.ca skrev:

> There are several different starter drives that have been used over
> the years. A true bendix has a problem in that it disengages if the
> engine half-starts. This problem was solved back in the early sixties
> by the introduction of the (Bendix) "follo-thru" drive. This was a
> modification of the "bendix". All true "bendix" and "follo-thru"
> drives have a large drive spring and the drive is fastened to the
> armature shaft by a pin. The original Bendix has a counter-weighted
> drive gesr to p[rovide the inertia required to spin the gear out the
> helix.
> The "bendix" drive was very common on Lucas and Bosch starters in the
> fifties and sixties, and some early autolite/prestolite starters.
>
> The "follo-thru" gets an over-running clutch with a centrifugal
> lockout pin (or more) that hold the drive in gear untill the starter
> stops turning or the engine reaches a minimum of 400 RPM. The
> follo-thru starter drive was common on Prestolite light duty starters,
> while their heavy duty starters were more like a Delco, with a
> solenoid engaged (pre-engage) drive with over-running clutch.
> Pre-engage starters usually have a helix of some sort on the starter
> armature shaft.

I can only conclude that you have not seen all the starters on the
market but here you is acting as you have.
And the RPM that you state might be true for Toyota but it is not the
only truth for all cars.

> The bendix and follow-thru helix is on the gear side of the bendix
> spring, and is part of the drive.
>
> NONE of the currently produced Japaneseor european starters, to the
> best of my knowledge, use a starter drive with a "bendix spring" -
> which is a unique and essential part of a "bendix" drive.
>
> I could explain in detail how the Bendix drive works, but at this
> point it is enough to say there are NO Bendix drives used on ANY
> pre-engage starters - or on ANY current production automotive engine
> produced in the Americas, Europe, Australia or Japan/Korea/Thailand.

If you say so.............

To be honest I do respect the knowledge that you have and from what you
is writing I for sure can tell that you're knowledge is huge. I really
would like to end the discussion. Because of our individual knowledge
this discussion could go on forever.
The fact that we are on different continents makes it difficult to meet
face to face and exchange stories on the subject :-)


--
Uffe

[Uffe Bærentsen]

The main thing in this story is the great barriers that we saw car-wise.
In USA it was difficult to get parts and service for Japanese and
European vehicles. In Europe it was difficult to get parts and service
for vehicles from USA (at least in some countries in Europe). I do not
know what the story was in Japan but I would not be surprised if they
had difficulties wit US and European vehicles.
Protectionism (most likely missspelled....)



--
Uffe

[Jim Wilkins]

"Uffe B�rentsen" <leiti_F...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:511d23ab$0$304

>
> The main thing in this story is the great barriers that we saw
> car-wise.
> In USA it was difficult to get parts and service for Japanese and
> European vehicles. In Europe it was difficult to get parts and
> service for vehicles from USA (at least in some countries in
> Europe). I do not know what the story was in Japan but I would not
> be surprised if they had difficulties wit US and European vehicles.
> Protectionism (most likely missspelled....)

> Uffe

Whatever the reason it didn't affect Volkswagen, or Japanese
motorcycles. When I bought my first Honda car in 1974 the dealer's
parts department was well stocked. I checked.

[Uffe Bærentsen]

See that on a daily basis....

> Sometimes another company thinks they have a better way and it's
> different enough that there are no patent questions - Ford's moving
> pole-shoe 'solenoid' design - Ugly, but it works.

Have not seen that constellation only true MAG-switch which this one is not.

> And sometimes they actually do come up with an even better way to do
> it. Looks the same, basic operation is the same, lasts longer, less
> kick-outs.

Clutches and free-runs? See them on a daily basis in all sizes and
shapes :-)


--
Uffe

[Michael A. Terrell]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> Funny thing, in Canada all of the parts were readilly available - and
> actually reasonably priced. By 1974 they had the brake problem sorted
> out - all replacement pads in Canada had the fix

It wasn't the pads, it was the crap pad holder. It flexed when you
braked hard in reverse. The dealer told me to scrap the piece of shit,
that it was never safe. How many model specific parts would you stock
for a total import of 1000 vehicles?

[Michael A. Terrell]

They had parts for every other model of Toyota, just not that
year/model.

[Mike Spencer]

I wrote:

But run [F250] until it get thoroughly warmed up, shut it off, and it

behaves as if it had a nearly dead battery: a-WUMP a-WUMP a-wump
aaaa clickety-click. Let it sit for 10 to 20 minutes (depending
on the outdoor temp) and it fires right up again. PITA at gas
stations.

"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61***spam...@hotmail.com> writes:

> Please list some of the things you tried, or replaced.

Ha. Starter motor, fender-mounted solenoid/relay, battery and (for
other reasons) the alternator & belt.

Haven't replaced the cables, all of which appear clean and well
connected but not (See Mike Terrell's post) oversized. Haven't
replace the in-tank electric fuel pump or other fuel components or
sensors.

Folks in another venue have suggested overheating of the starter motor
itself by the nearby exhaust manifold. I haven't figured out how to
cobble up a heat shield yet. (Getting a little old, stiff and creaky
for crawling around under a truck, don'tcha know?)

Other posts saved for thinking about, thank y'all.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

You ought to try to get parts for ANYTHING in places like Zambia and
Burkina Faso. Had a gas landrover holed the block in Livingstone
Zambia back in '73. Bored the block, got an old fergusson Diesel
tractor sleave and machined it for a shrink-press fit in to the block,
heated the block with a big rosebud and froze the cyl with dry ice
(which was ONLY available in Livingstone, in all of southern province)
and dropped the sleave in. 3 days later we bored the sleave and put
the engine back together and into service. That was just one of MANY
"Zamfixes" that were required to keep vehicles on the road.
Getting a fanbelt for a 1962 Corvair took over a month, ordering it
from Canada - if you had money outside the country to pay for it with.
Six months if you needed to go through currency control - and you paid
about 150% duty to bring it in - and that was assuming you EVER got
it.

In 2000 in Ougadougo, Burkina Faso, I needed a valve retainer for a
Toyota Hilux diesel - none available and even the scrap-yards were
slim pickings. Needed alternator parts for a Mitsubishi Pajero - had
to make Toyota parts fit - and a power steering pump for a Nissan
Patrol proved impossible to get in the time I was there.

Today a friend of mine gets parts for his JDM Totota Hillux Surf
Diesel here in Canada in less than 2 weeks - a vehicle that was NEVER
imported to North America -straight from Japan.

When I had my Vauxhaul HC 2300 (Pontiac Firenza in Canada) on a trip
to the east coast the voltage regulator went bad - I was able to fit
one from an old Pontiac in by bending some connectors - impressed the
heck out of the GM dealer in Dartmouth. And on the way from Sydney to
Halifax it dropped the timing belt in about 5 pieces all over the
road. Thankfully it happened in Nova Scotia, because the next day I
was in Maine - and the Vauxhaul was not imported to the USA. They got
the Opel instead. The GM dealer in Norh Sydney had a belt hanging on a
nail in the parts department that he had no idea what it fit - one of
the pieces I picked up off the road had a readable part number - and
less than an hour later a friend was able to deliver the only Firenza
timing belt east of Toronto to me on the side of the road, where I
already had everything apart and timed up, ready for the belt - and I
was back on the road in about 10 minutes later.

Today with the internet it is a LOT easier to find parts for odball
stuff. A friend just ordered a bunch of parts for a 1961 Isetta 300
out of the USA off the internet. You could do that today from Banfora
Burkina Faso, or Muinilunga, Zambia, or Bujumbura Burundi - and with
international courier service, have the parts in less than a week -
just like we can from Waterloo, Ontario.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

You are thinking considerably older than 1973. You are thinking
about the RT40 or RT50 series. Or POSSIBLY the RT60 series.
The RT70 and 80 series started in 1972 - and had problems with the
lining separating from tha pads for a couple months of production,
from what I remember.

The Mark 2 started in 1969 - with the RT70 series - a one year series.

In late '73 the fifth generation RT108 series came out - and the new
Mark 2 6 cyl. (MX series, 22 and 27 being quite common).

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Had to be the 1972 then - the 1972 Mark 2 was a one year only model -
less than 8 months production came to North America - but the brake
parts were not specific to the Mk.- and we never had any issues other
than the pads separating that I can remember. We likely sold 20 or 25
Mk 2 coronas that year - along with a couple dozen regular Coronas -
both sedan and hatch.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On 14 Feb 2013 20:30:02 -0400, Mike Spencer

Ford MADE a heat shield for that starter if I remember correctly
-and installed it as standard equipment.

[Michael A. Terrell]

It was titled as a '73. Maybe they dumped the last 1000 of an older
mdel on the US market? I was told the disk brake system was completley
redesigned in the '74 model. I bought the piece of crap used, and
regretted it in a hurry but I need a way to get to work every day.

[Michael A. Terrell]

cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
>
> On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:47:28 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Jim Wilkins wrote:
> >>

> >> "Uffe Bærentsen" <leiti_F...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

It was titled as a '73 model, but your description sounds like it. I
bought a new '83 Toyota pickup. I had it seven months when a woman
crossed the center line & hit me head on and spun me counter clockwise.
My head pushed the glass out of the back of the cab, and I bent the
steering column to the dash as I went sideways. It was the only time I
ever drove that truck without a seatbelt, and was told that I would have
been dead if I was wearing it. My dad had a motorhome built on a Toyota
chassis. It caught fire and burnt to the ground before a firetruck
could get there. I haven't had good luck with any Toyota. Pontiac,
Chevy, GMC & Dodge have never disappointed me. Some cost me less than
$100 a year to own & maintain. That Toyota pickup cost me $3000 for
seven months.

[Uffe Bærentsen]

Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.



--
Uffe

[Jim Wilkins]

"Uffe B�rentsen" <leiti_F...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:511eb402$0$297$edfa...@dtext01.news.tele.dk...

> Den 15-02-2013 05:32, cl...@snyder.on.ca skrev:
>
>> You ought to try to get parts for ANYTHING in places like Zambia
>> and
>> Burkina Faso.
>

> Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.

> Uffe

The PBS show on Pharaoh's Chariot showed a lot of experimental metal
and woodworking in Egyptian street shops, with equipment similar to my
hobby shop or that of the architectural door-maker I helped build a
steam bender.

The old South Bend booklets describe how to make and recondition
automotive pistons, valves and electric motors. Doesn't the less
developed world have such small general repair shops available?
Iron-working in central Africa dates from many centuries BC.

I've asked engineers from Asia and Africa about this, but it seems
they had all avoided such demeaning manual skills if they were smart
and rich enough to get into a foreign university.

[Gerry Miller]

On 14 Feb 2013 20:30:02 -0400, Mike Spencer
<m...@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>

Second sun had that prob. with a '68 valiant after he put a V8 in it,
exhaust leak would overheat the starter and it had to cool more than
an hour before it would start. he stopped for supper one night and it
wouldn't start when it was time to resume his journey. By the time I
got there to rescue him (90 minutes latter) it fired right up and he
followed me home.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Interesting.
I have owned Toyota, Peugeot, VW, Renault, Ford GM, Chrysler,AMC,
Austin/Morris, Vauxhaul and Mitsushitty. In my immediate family you
can add Honda, Nissan, Mazda, Sunbeam/rootes, Rover, and likely a few
I've missed.

As you may have surmised, I was not impressed with the Mitsu product.

The last GM was quite possibly the most problematic vehicle I've ever
owned - and I know my Dad had more trouble with his one GMC pickup
than with any two of his other vehcles. Just stupid stuff - like the
box inner fenderwells being too wide, so they rubbed on the tires
untill, after being brushed off by the dealer service manager for
about 6 months there was a service bulletin/recall to jack the
fenderwells in - The hanger bearing on the driveshaft squeaked and was
supposedly replaced 3 times by the local dealer - then failed on a
trip to Saskatchewan, where the dealer stated the bearing had NEVER
been removed and had been oiled instead - it blew the muffler off
about every 4000 miles if he didn't have the points changed at about
3000 (I later found the ground strap to the breaker plate had never
been installed) and a fan blade that made an unexpected exit from the
engine compartment trough the hood. Now that was back in 1968 IIRC.

My Pontiac TransSport just never did work 100% - and kept giving me
reasons to dislike it on a regular basis - as much as I really wanted
to like the thing.

Dad's heavy half 1980? Toyota pickup had a wooden barn built on the
back to carry his electrical tools and supplies and virtually NEVER
had less than 2 tons on it - and he flogged the living daylights out
of it. The young fellows working with him on the job called him
"swervin' Mervin" and in 6 years he replaced one front wheel bearing
and one rear wheel bearing, and I think 2 sets of brakes and tires.
Absolutely NO other repairs. Anything that put up with Dad's use as a
truck that well was a tough little truck.

Other than the Aerostar body rust, I've been pretty happy with my
Fords - currently have 2 again. My used Chryslers have usually treated
me pretty well - the only new vehicle I ever owned was 1 '76
Ramcharger, and initial quality was AWFULL. Door adjustment so bad it
leaked when it rained - and after the dealer re-adjusted it a pencip
dropped on the floor would land on the ground - and the tailgate fell
off on my foot the first time I opened it. Terrible dealer PDI and
service. I and my kid brother did all the body adjustments, I
recalibrated the carb, and it was a pretty decent truck when I
unloaded it a year and a half later - at a significant financial cost.

We rallied the 72 R12 Renault for 3 years and never broke it.
The '67 Peugeot 204 was I guess typical of the breed. Not terribly
reliable, but unknown 5 year history before I ended up with it - and
central Africa is not easy on cars. The '61 mini was - well - British.
And it had 196,000 miles on it when I bought it for $60. What can I
say. The 1972 Vauxhall HC was a surprisingly good and reliable car.
Sold as a Pontiac Firenza up here - and the joke was "any f'renz a
yours ain't fi'renz a mine". If you treated it like a british car
instead of a Pontiac, it was fine. (open the hood and fondle it's nuts
every week or so)

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
(about 25 years) in Canada -----

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 17:54:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Uffe Bærentsen" <leiti_F...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

That, in a nutshell, is the problem. I have not been into the
Republic of South Africa - perhaps the sanctions made that happen
there - but in Zambia in the '70s there was not a lot of that evident.
Some in Burkina in 2000. But not like Cuba or India, or Cassablanca

[Michael A. Terrell]

The last GM vehicle I had was a 79 Chevy Malibu. It was a retired
Seriff's cursier with 123,000 miles when I bought it for $500. I drove
it 96,000 miles before I sold it. The only failure in that five years
was the starter solinoid. I was busy with a Telethon, so I called the
dealer to fix it. The SOB replace the starter instead of the solenoid,
and used an inpact wrench on the mounting bolts. They twisted one off,
but didn't tell me. A week later I am a hour away from home, it is one
AM and the starter just spins because it has rotated away from the
flywheel on the one bolt.

> My Pontiac TransSport just never did work 100% - and kept giving me
> reasons to dislike it on a regular basis - as much as I really wanted
> to like the thing.

I had a '63 Catalina convertible. My first car. It ran great, and
other than a tuneup, I put a full set of new tires on it. That was
followed by a '66 GTO that was bought with a blown engine from an idiot
who took it to a race track and tried to put his foot through the floor.
A spun crank, and two connecting rods were damaged. I had a spare
crank, bought two rods and put it back together. I replaced the two
speed auto with a three, which was too bigh for the transmission oil
cooler so I lost a couple used transmissions. Later I had an 'Olds
Starfire' which was a compact Pontiac with different trim. The head
cracked at 125,000 miles. I had it remanufactured, and drove it for
several more years until a drunk ran out of the road and pushed it into
my '73 Chevy stepvan. She totaled her car, my car and did $200 damage
to the Stepvan. I bought a beat up '68 GMC handyvan when I got out of
the service for a work truck. Beat to death, and was painted with
orange acrylic by a house painter. It was a retired 'Stanley Steemer'
van, and he painted over all those huge signs. I drove it for about
four years before the engine blew. I was told it was an old taxicab
engine. He had shoehorned a Chevy 283 into the thong becaus ehe didn't
like the 292 it had when he bought it. The guy was strange.

I owned a 79 Dodge RAM. It had been in storage for years without
being started. It was gummed up, beat up, and pretty sad looking, but it
was $500 and I needed a truck. I cleaned the old plugs, and managed to
get it to fire up on two cylinders. I let it idle for 15 minutes,
coughing, smoking & shaking as two more started firing.
I drove it for a couple days, and the other two were working, so I gave
it a tuneup. I drove that truck for five years. The 97 Dakota I have
now I've had over five years. It was $2,800. The crap clearcoat is
peeling, and it has other problems, but it still runs and is safe.


The only new vehicle I owned was the '83 Toyota pickup. It lasted
seven months.

[Uffe Bærentsen]

Den 16-02-2013 07:11, cl...@snyder.on.ca skrev:

>> Sounds like you have seen most of what a car can throw at you.
> And those are just the highlights of the last 46 years. - and not
> including any of the customer vehicle issues in my life in the trade
> (about 25 years) in Canada -----

Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
all out metric tooling and threads on those.
Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
Do you know if that could be true?

It was this model

http://www.easyautosales.com/used-cars/1995-Chevrolet-Other-C1500-WT-84353930.html

only line trucks with toolboxes on the side of the bed.


--
Uffe

[Jim Wilkins]

<cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
news:rp8uh817vdikr2ggg...@4ax.com...

Old African hunting books tell of having to send damaged rifles back
to England to be repaired by craftsmen who filed and scraped the new
part to fit <by hand>, using candle flame soot to judge their
progress. I've fitted someone's wobbly scope base to the receiver at
the range by scraping it with broken glass off the ground and checking
the contact area with soot from a Bic.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Made in Oshawa Ontario. Vehicles of that vintage were bastardized
metric. Some parts were imperial - because they came from the USA.
Some were metric - but not metric standard. For example, in place of
5/16" bolts they used 8mm - but 8mm SHOULD have 12 mm heads - they
used 13 because it was "close enough" to 1/2" that 1/2" wrenches would
"sorta" fit. Same with 1/4". Replaced with 6mm - which should have
10mm heads - but they used 11mm because a 7/16" wrench would "sorta"
fit. So some redneck shadetree mechanic would try to force a 1/4 unf
or 5/16 unf bolt into the hole, or nut onto the stud, and bad things
started happening real fast. Not bad on a new vehicle where the
"metric" bolts had a green colour to them - but after about 5
years?????

[dpb]

On 2/16/2013 8:15 AM, Uffe Bærentsen wrote:
> Den 16-02-2013 07:11, cl...@snyder.on.ca skrev:

...

>
> Saw one funny thing on some Chevy's a while back (1995/1996).
> We were told they were built in Canada and that was the reason for the
> all out metric tooling and threads on those.
> Gave us a hard time since all our tooling was imperial.
> Do you know if that could be true?

...

Began 10 yr or so before that--and all three US manufacturers (GM, Ford,
Chrysler) did the same thing and didn't matter about whether were US- or
Canadian built--they were all the same across models for any given year.

I've just found as recent as 2003 Buick LeSabre still has some SAE on a
couple of the brackets on the belt tensioner assembly, the structural
portion of which serves as a transition passageway for heater coolant on
the 3800 V6 (and, I presume the various other incarnations of it as well).

The stupid plastic elbows w/ o-ring seals that fit between the block and
the tensioner assembly had cracked; discovered it while changing them
out. Why at this late date there's anything that's not metric is beyond
me, but so help me, one set was exactly such that only an SAE (Imperial)
tool would fit.

It basically all began when the Common Market stuff got strong enough to
demand that imports have at least X% metric in order to export--up until
then US was dominant-enough could just thumb nose at individual
countries[1]. I'm sure there were all kinds of negotiated conditions in
the economic agreements of the time but I've never looked into trying to
actually discover the details thereof...

[1] We Yanks, of course, thought it was totally stupid (and most still
do if one judges by the quickness w/ which it has taken hold (or not) in
general use)... :)

--

[Ed Huntress]

But what the heck were we exporting then? I saw a Corvette in Paris
once, but that was about it.

I may have a better answer for which parts vendors (that's where the
SAE fasteners are coming from) haven't converted yet, and why. There
is no money in it for me now so I'm not going through that hassle of
penetrating the Tier 1/ Tier 2 press departments. But something is
coming up, for which I'll be looking into it.

>
>[1] We Yanks, of course, thought it was totally stupid (and most still
>do if one judges by the quickness w/ which it has taken hold (or not) in
>general use)... :)

The cost benefits are still a mixed bag. Our annoyance is not a
factor. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

[Uffe Bærentsen]

Was stuck with several of those bastards in a location were it was
difficult to get supplies. A 1/2" was simply not allowed if it should be
a 13mm. Rather park the vehicle for the time it took to get the right
spanner.
Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts are: (thread/spanner)
6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.



--
Uffe

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:36:19 +0100, Uffe B�rentsen
<leiti_F...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Den 16-02-2013 18:35, cl...@snyder.on.ca skrev:

>> On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe B�rentsen

You have it mixed up. Standard on an 8 is 12, everywhere in the world
except north america.

[David Billington]

On 16/02/13 22:37, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:36:19 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen

> <leiti_F...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Den 16-02-2013 18:35, cl...@snyder.on.ca skrev:

>>> On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:15:43 +0100, Uffe Bærentsen

I must have been buying US metric bolts then for the last 20+ years in
the UK as all the M8 hex fasteners I buy have 13mm AF heads. See

http://www.fairburyfastener.com/xdims_metric_nuts.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screw#ISO_metric_screw_thread
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Screws/Hex_Screws.htm
http://www.bath.ac.uk/idmrc/themes/projects/delores/co-design-website/dpg/bol/bol7.html

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

You are buying hardware store fasteners - not automotive/industrial
fasteners.

[David Billington]

I'm buying industrial fasteners to ISO spec. Auto fasteners can be
anything the maker wants due to quantity. For instance M7 is not a
preferred size but is more prevalent these days in the auto industry as
the jump in strength between M6 and M8, both preferred sizes, is
significant and the intermediate M7 can perform the job where M6 is
insufficient and M8 overkill. Such is the way the engineering is these
days in the auto industry. IIRC a mate that works in auto engine design
has many boxes of M8 fasteners with 12mm AF heads and washer faced but
these are auto specials made for the application and not to a normal
fastener standard.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Uffe Bærentsen" <leiti_F...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:511ffbd7$0$305> Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts are:

(thread/spanner)
> 6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
> So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.

> Uffe

There are 14 and 15mm hex heads on my Honda and some 18mm ones on the
Ford.

[Uffe Bærentsen]

This I must give you: Glad I don't have to argue with you on a daily
basis due to me not being a good looser ;-)
Must admit that I went on a lookout tour on the web and you were damn
right the automotive fastners/nuts that I found were skinnier than the
standard nuts :-(
Never gave this much of a thought just grabbed another wrench for the
job. Living in Europe have wrenches and sockets in mm and having
troubles with the Imperial nuts and bolts.
Except for the hex/allen keys.
Having a South Bend lathe I'm forced to have at least Allen keys in
Imperial ;-)


--
Uffe

[Uffe Bærentsen]

The Ford I know about since a Ford Mondeo sits in the driveway here.
The first time i came across the odd size of 18mm I was confused, but
now I konw better ;-)


--
Uffe

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2013 10:17:47 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"

<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

><cl...@snyder.on.ca> wrote in message
>news:rp8uh817vdikr2ggg...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 15 Feb 2013 17:54:39 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
>> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>I've asked engineers from Asia and Africa about this, but it seems
>>>they had all avoided such demeaning manual skills if they were smart
>>>and rich enough to get into a foreign university.
>>>
>
>> That, in a nutshell, is the problem. I have not been into the
>> Republic of South Africa - perhaps the sanctions made that happen
>> there - but in Zambia in the '70s there was not a lot of that
>> evident.
>> Some in Burkina in 2000. But not like Cuba or India, or Cassablanca
>
>Old African hunting books tell of having to send damaged rifles back
>to England to be repaired by craftsmen who filed and scraped the new
>part to fit <by hand>, using candle flame soot to judge their
>progress. I've fitted someone's wobbly scope base to the receiver at
>the range by scraping it with broken glass off the ground and checking
>the contact area with soot from a Bic.

What? No proper scraper in your range bag? That's a handy skillset.

--
If government were a product,
selling it would be illegal.
--P.J. O'Rourke

[David Billington]

On 17/02/13 00:28, Uffe B�rentsen wrote:
> Den 17-02-2013 01:07, Jim Wilkins skrev:

>> "Uffe B�rentsen" <leiti_F...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

>> news:511ffbd7$0$305> Standard sizes on spanners for metrical nuts are:
>> (thread/spanner)
>>> 6mm/10mm 8mm/13mm 10mm/17mm 12mm/19mm
>>> So my guess would be that they used 12mm heads.
>>> Uffe
>>
>> There are 14 and 15mm hex heads on my Honda and some 18mm ones on the
>> Ford.
>
> The Ford I know about since a Ford Mondeo sits in the driveway here.
> The first time i came across the odd size of 18mm I was confused, but
> now I konw better ;-)
>
>

Years ago a mate that speaks fluent German and French and was working in
Munich at the time mentioned a German expression about something being
as useful as a 17mm spanner indicating it was of little use. I thought
that odd at the time as at least the spanner for the spindle on my
German angle grinder was 17mm AF, maybe he got the size wrong.

[Uffe Bærentsen]

What does 17mm AF exactly means?
My guess would be something that expresses 17mm wrench but why calling
it AF?

--
Uffe

[Jim Wilkins]

"David Billington" <d...@djbillington.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:51201a3b$0$4494

> I'm buying industrial fasteners to ISO spec. Auto fasteners can be
> anything the maker wants due to quantity. For instance M7 is not a
> preferred size but is more prevalent these days in the auto industry
> as the jump in strength between M6 and M8, both preferred sizes, is
> significant and the intermediate M7 can perform the job where M6 is
> insufficient and M8 overkill.

The clamping screws on my Swiss Multifix lathe tool holder are 7mm. I
found replacements for the damaged ones in an auto parts store. The
heads are 11mm which a 7/16" wrench fits nicely, so I can use the
antique wrenches I've collected to go with the lathe.

[David Billington]

Uffe,

Sorry about the AF term usage as that is common in inch and metric
English terminology for wrench (spanner) dimensions. The AF refers to
"Across Flats" so the 17mm AF is a 17mm wrench (spanner).

Something that annoys me is that most US posters quote gauge systems and
temperature without noting the systems being used when posting on an
international group. The system can normally be determined from context
such as degrees C or F as the difference is significant but gauge sizes
such as awg and swg can differ by a significant amount for some uses but
are not specified just given as "g", quoting metal thicknesses in mm
removes ambiguity. It doesn't help though that in these times of high
metal cost mills seem to be paring the sheet metal thickness to the
minimum and below I reckon to get more sheets per ton.