Rock n Roll

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Frank, On my Eddy Merckx I was using an old chain so I would lube it with Rock n Roll and let it dry over-night.

The chain would stay relatively clean though it did deposit a layer of something on the rear derailleur pulleys that was a real pain in the butt to get off.

When you're using your wax technique do you find any build-up on the cogs, rings and pulleys?

[Joerg]

Which of their three lubes did you use?

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/reviews/tools-maintenance-cleaning/rocknroll-gold-lubricant

Is it better than White Lightning? The process seems quite wasteful,
dripping on a lot and then wiping away the run-off.

I've had the pulley gunk with any lube so far, whether chainsaw oil,
motor oil or some fancy bike product. I take a knife, hold the blade
against the pulley, turn the crank backwards ... splat ... a clump falls
onto the work bench. When cleaning the MTB chain before a re-lube I
collect a total of about one shotglass full of gunk from the pulleys,
cogs and chain. Dirt, clay, sap, caked animal poop, "star thistle
mousse", and so on.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Frank Krygowski]

Just a very tiny bit, about as much as if a kid with a crayon drew the
tooth outline just inboard of the actual teeth. If I really want to
clean the bike, I wipe that off with a dry rag.

But I don't clean or polish my bikes very often. Fortunately, I don't
need to. They look clean enough from 10 feet away, but they'll never win
a concours d'elegance. For example, I don't own a bike that doesn't have
nicks and scratches in the paint.

We did a club ride on our 39-year-old tandem today. One friend said
"The paint looks pretty good for 39 years old." A compliment, but
certainly not an unqualified one. (My wife said "Notice that most of
the nicks and scratches are up where he sits?")


--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

My bikes are dirty until just after their yearly cleaning.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Rock n Roll Gold. Like I say, I spot each link and let it dry over night and the chain has yet to squeak. And that chain which I just replaced was pretty old. My friend used it at least for a year, and he was putting in 6,000 mile years. But he squirts lube on it before every ride I believe. And he cleans the chain religiously very often. You can always touch his chain and only get a little clean lubricant on your fingers.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, June 17, 2017 at 12:14:28 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

> On 2017-06-17 11:34, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Frank, On my Eddy Merckx I was using an old chain so I would lube it
> > with Rock n Roll and let it dry over-night.
> >
> > The chain would stay relatively clean though it did deposit a layer
> > of something on the rear derailleur pulleys that was a real pain in
> > the butt to get off.
> >
> > When you're using your wax technique do you find any build-up on the
> > cogs, rings and pulleys?
>

> Is it better than White Lightning? The process seems quite wasteful,
> dripping on a lot and then wiping away the run-off.

The run-off appears to be mostly the carrier. But when I say I put a drop on each link I really mean a "drop".

[Joerg]

I am probably more like your friend, babying chains a lot. I apply lube
to each link using a Q-Tip. White Lightning Epic Ride gets shaken for a
good mix, then I squirt the roughly needed quantity into an old
shotglass and dab it on. After a thorough cleaning, of course.

Maybe I should try that Gold stuff. It seems to contain wax just like
Epic Ride. Possibly performance would be the same but one would only
know after trying. Entered into my wiki file but I still have a large
bottle of White Lightning to use up.

[Joerg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqVoZcf3fO0

:-)

I don't think I ever cleaned my MTB or my road bike in the last three
years (that's when I bought the current MTB). Actually, I can't remember
ever cleaning the road bike since purchase in 1982 except before
shipping to the US (required by law, ag inspection). This strategy
greatly reduces the chance of theft. On the underside of the downtubes
the color of the frame can only be discerned after a long ride through
driving rain. That's the only washing the bikes get.

[Frank Krygowski]

How long does that take you?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

The cleaning? Depends on where I was riding. A few minutes for the road
bike yesterday. My road bike has a good dose of dirt trail exposure. On
the MTB this can easily consume 15mins or more because there often is
"weed parfait" and other nasty stuff caked into everything. Where you
need scraping and poking tools. Sometimes solvent if vegetation with
lots of sap got sucked in.

The actual lube job took less than a minute. Then ... I discovered the
front had a slow flat and there went the next half hour because that
still has a Gatorskin on it. This time wasn't wasted though because I
started the wood fire for cooking during that time and that must be
watched for safety. Filet mignon over a hot Manzanita can't be beat.
Today it's going to be ribs, same procedure but sans the flat fix.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

So do I. As well as "Finish Line", two types of Pedro's, Dumonde, Chain Coat, and several others.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/18/2017 12:54 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-06-18 09:45, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 6/18/2017 12:24 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> I am probably more like your friend, babying chains a lot. I apply
>>> lube to each link using a Q-Tip. White Lightning Epic Ride gets shaken
>>> for a good mix, then I squirt the roughly needed quantity into an old
>>> shotglass and dab it on. After a thorough cleaning, of course.
>>
>> How long does that take you?
>>
>
> The cleaning? Depends on where I was riding. A few minutes for the road
> bike yesterday. My road bike has a good dose of dirt trail exposure. On
> the MTB this can easily consume 15mins or more because there often is
> "weed parfait" and other nasty stuff caked into everything. Where you
> need scraping and poking tools. Sometimes solvent if vegetation with
> lots of sap got sucked in.
>
> The actual lube job took less than a minute.

Wow. If your Q-tip procedure takes less than a minute, you're dabbing
with that Q-tip about twice every second, including time to re-dip that
Q-tip in the chain lube.

You're fast, all right!

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Has it not occurred to you that the cotton ball at the end of a Q-Tip
can hold enough lube for several joints? Over-lubing a chain is not a
good thing but a mess.

> You're fast, all right!
>

Look at a Q-Tip and then try to lube something with it. Maybe it'll sink
in. Maybe not.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I'll have to try that method since I have a lot of waste with one drop per link.

[Sir Ridesalot]

I have small plastic bottles with a very fine tip on them. They used to hold drops for my dog's ears but I use them now for oil. The very fine tip puts a drop of oil precisely on the roller of the chain link and the oild flows under the roller and onto the pin. It takes less than a minute to oil the entire 9-speed chain and there's no dripping of oild onto the floor or elsewhere. There's also usually no oil on the outside of the links where it's not needed and would only act as a dirt magnet.

Cheers

[Joerg]

It also results in nothing dropping onto the side of the tire or onto
the workbench. Even though I have a Kleenex there it sometimes went
through when using the prescribed spout method. Most of all, without
dripping or having to wipe off copious amounts of excess lube a bottle
goes much longer when using Q-Tips. Epic Ride isn't exactly cheap. Now
an 8oz bottle lasts me almost a year.

Q-Tips are one of the key inventions of civilized man. Very useful for
lots of stuff except their original market of cleaning ears. Just like
duct tape :-)

> I have small plastic bottles with a very fine tip on them. They used
> to hold drops for my dog's ears but I use them now for oil.

Those should work well. We switched to the wipes for our Labradors. Less
mess with the drop stuff running back out or splattering everywhere when
they shake.


> ... The very

> fine tip puts a drop of oil precisely on the roller of the chain link
> and the oild flows under the roller and onto the pin. It takes less
> than a minute to oil the entire 9-speed chain and there's no dripping
> of oild onto the floor or elsewhere. There's also usually no oil on
> the outside of the links where it's not needed and would only act as
> a dirt magnet.
>

I usually run a dry wipe underneath in case something does seep down.
And yes, it does take less than a minute even if Frank won't believe it.

[James]

The stuff I use is so cheap, waste isn't a consideration.

--
JS

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I didn't know Duct Tape was for cleaning ears.

[Joerg]

It's too painful :-)

[Frank Krygowski]

On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 1:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>
> And yes, it does take less than a minute even if Frank won't believe it.

Two dabs per second for the entire chain? Yes, I won't believe it, unless you
post a video. Sorry for the skepticism.

- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

<sigh>

Can't do videos. Let me explain the wonderful workings of a Q-Tip. You
shake the White Lightning bottle a couple of seconds, spritz the usual
dose into a shotglass. Then you dip one side of the Q-Tip into the fluid
and gently stroke along 5-7 links of the chain, with slight overlap.
Lower run, so the lube goes on the rollers where they run inside.
Simultaneously you can hold a piece of folded Kleenex between middle and
ring finger that glides along the underside of the chain to catch
possible drippings. Repeat that 18-20 times while backpedaling the crank
at equal speed. Done.

It is advisable not to use a shotglass that is still in use for its
intended purpose ...

[sms]

On 6/18/17 9:54 AM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> The actual lube job took less than a minute.

Not bad, but lubing with foaming chain lube takes about half that time.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/19/2017 7:34 PM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-06-19 16:04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 1:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>>
>>> And yes, it does take less than a minute even if Frank won't believe it.
>>
>> Two dabs per second for the entire chain? Yes, I won't believe it,
>> unless you
>> post a video. Sorry for the skepticism.
>>
>
> <sigh>
>
> Can't do videos. Let me explain the wonderful workings of a Q-Tip. You
> shake the White Lightning bottle a couple of seconds, spritz the usual
> dose into a shotglass. Then you dip one side of the Q-Tip into the fluid
> and gently stroke along 5-7 links of the chain, with slight overlap.

Ah. IOW, you smear it on the entire chain working five to seven links
at a time.

That seems significantly different than what you described before: "I
apply lube to each link using a Q-Tip... [I] dab it on."

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Doug Landau]

> That seems significantly different than what you described before: "I
> apply lube to each link using a Q-Tip... [I] dab it on."
>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6F4GtyRfto

[dave]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 14:20:22 -0700, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

>>
>> I didn't know Duct Tape was for cleaning ears.
>>
>>
> It's too painful :-)

It's very good for removing excess ear hair though. And cheaper than
waxing at the salon.

--
davethedave

[AMuzi]

You've convinced me.
Can't wait for the hot chicks to show up after I Q-Tip lube
my chain!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[Joerg]

For an engineer you have remarkably little imagination. A human finger
is capable of going up and down. Even two fingers holding a Q-Tip are.
Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat, like a machine gun. It's just that after 5-7
links there ain't enough juice left in the Q-Tip to go on.

Does it register now?

[Joerg]

Plus the clean-up of drippings. I am married so I've got to clean up :-)

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I suppose that's what little fat, ugly boys dream about.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/20/2017 9:12 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2017-06-19 19:53, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 6/19/2017 7:34 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-06-19 16:04, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 1:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> And yes, it does take less than a minute even if Frank won't believe
>>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Two dabs per second for the entire chain? Yes, I won't believe it,
>>>> unless you
>>>> post a video. Sorry for the skepticism.
>>>>
>>>
>>> <sigh>
>>>
>>> Can't do videos. Let me explain the wonderful workings of a Q-Tip. You
>>> shake the White Lightning bottle a couple of seconds, spritz the usual
>>> dose into a shotglass. Then you dip one side of the Q-Tip into the
>>> fluid and gently stroke along 5-7 links of the chain, with slight
>>> overlap.
>>
>> Ah. IOW, you smear it on the entire chain working five to seven links
>> at a time.
>>
>> That seems significantly different than what you described before: "I
>> apply lube to each link using a Q-Tip... [I] dab it on."
>>
>
> For an engineer you have remarkably little imagination. A human finger
> is capable of going up and down. Even two fingers holding a Q-Tip are.
> Rat-tat-tat-tat-tat-tat, like a machine gun.

:-) It gets better and better, Joerg.

Really, a video would be great.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

I won't go borrow a camera for that since last time I made a photo upon
your request you came up with some other reason why you didn't believe
me. It was about filing a chain pin which I used to do all the time.
Some folks can do it, some cannot do it, it seems.

[sms]

On 6/20/17 1:04 PM, Joerg wrote:

<snip>

> I won't go borrow a camera for that since last time I made a photo upon
> your request you came up with some other reason why you didn't believe
> me. It was about filing a chain pin which I used to do all the time.
> Some folks can do it, some cannot do it, it seems.

LOL, Frank demands a video regarding how you lube your chain, but of
course there is ALWAYS a reason or excuse when someone foolishly
complies with one of his demands.

[Frank Krygowski]

Yes, as I recall, you put up a photo that did not seem to show what you
claimed - that an ordinary file could file down a hardened steel chain
pin. I suspected you'd hit that chain with a grinder instead of a file,
based on the scratch marks. Certainly, I (and IIRC others) tried files
on chain pins and got the result I expected, which was slight damage to
the file, no discernible change in the chain pin.

Those with a knowledge of Rockwell hardness would have easily understood
this.

Now you're asking us to believe you can use your super-speed to dab lube
onto chain links at a rate of two per second, using your Q-tip, doing
the entire chain in under a minute. I still say it sounds very, very
unlikely.

And son of a gun! There was a guy posting on September 23, 2016 who
claimed that exact same procedure took not one minute, but instead, 10
minutes! You should track him down, because he was using your account
and pretending to be you!

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/3yhBk3cdz-8/iOdTYV_FBAAJ

"Chain cleaning takes at least 20mins each bike. The MTB chain has caked
brown dirt which comes off easy. The road chain bike is fairly clean
after lots of bike path riding but grimy soot-black after riding lots of
road. Gives me goose bumps thinking that I also breath whatever causes
this. I found the disposable interdental brushes to work great for
cleaning. First used for my teeth, rinsed, dried, they go into a coin
envelope and that is used up in the garage. So they all work two jobs.

"Lubing takes 10mins because I carefully dab it onto each link via Q-tip."

As happens so often, we're left with a problem: Which version of Joerg
to believe?


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Which is exactly what I did. I even gave you the file brand and type.


> ... I suspected you'd hit that chain with a grinder instead of a file,
> based on the scratch marks. ...


Don't become a detective or expert witness. They'd fire you soon, and
should.


> ... Certainly, I (and IIRC others) tried files

> on chain pins and got the result I expected, which was slight damage to
> the file, no discernible change in the chain pin.
>
> Those with a knowledge of Rockwell hardness would have easily understood
> this.
>

Those with knowledge of how to do this stuff and in possession of
professional grade tools understand better.

> Now you're asking us to believe you can use your super-speed to dab lube
> onto chain links at a rate of two per second, using your Q-tip, doing
> the entire chain in under a minute. I still say it sounds very, very
> unlikely.
>
> And son of a gun! There was a guy posting on September 23, 2016 who
> claimed that exact same procedure took not one minute, but instead, 10
> minutes! You should track him down, because he was using your account
> and pretending to be you!
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/3yhBk3cdz-8/iOdTYV_FBAAJ
>
> "Chain cleaning takes at least 20mins each bike. The MTB chain has caked
> brown dirt which comes off easy. The road chain bike is fairly clean
> after lots of bike path riding but grimy soot-black after riding lots of
> road. Gives me goose bumps thinking that I also breath whatever causes
> this. I found the disposable interdental brushes to work great for
> cleaning. First used for my teeth, rinsed, dried, they go into a coin
> envelope and that is used up in the garage. So they all work two jobs.
>
> "Lubing takes 10mins because I carefully dab it onto each link via Q-tip."
>
> As happens so often, we're left with a problem: Which version of Joerg
> to believe?
>

That should have been one min. The 20mins is nearly all taken up by
cleaning grime and sticky stuff.

It's also a matter of training.

[James]

From what I've seen, that stuff needs to be flooded on to the chain
because there is little wax in a bottle of much solvent.

Cooking in a hot wax/oil bath is much more effective.

--
JS

[Joerg]

I have tried the flooding early on (and back then chain lubing took me a
lot longer), then went to the quick dab-skip-dab-skip... method. It made
no difference in the "miles until squeal" but the usage of fluid per
lube event went way down.

There is indeed only little wax in it so you don't get the nice
protection of a factory original lube but there must also be some top
quality oil in it. Otherwise I'd never get 4000mi+ out of a Sachs-Sedis
chain. I am a stickler when it comes to cleaning though, using
interdental brushes and all that.

With the Q-Tip methods I must stir the shotglass contents once during
the lube so the wax won't settle out too much.

[jbeattie]

What is your formula, exactly. I'll be the tester. Just like with my dynamo.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Bullshit, Joerg. There's no way you have as much time in a machine shop
as I have. There's no way you know as much about steel metallurgy,
hardness measurements or cutting tools as I do. There's no way your
files are better than my files. There's no way you have filed down
chain pins with any normal steel file.

>> Now you're asking us to believe you can use your super-speed to dab lube
>> onto chain links at a rate of two per second, using your Q-tip, doing
>> the entire chain in under a minute. I still say it sounds very, very
>> unlikely.
>>
>> And son of a gun! There was a guy posting on September 23, 2016 who
>> claimed that exact same procedure took not one minute, but instead, 10
>> minutes! You should track him down, because he was using your account
>> and pretending to be you!
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.bicycles.tech/3yhBk3cdz-8/iOdTYV_FBAAJ
>>
>>
>> "Chain cleaning takes at least 20mins each bike. The MTB chain has caked
>> brown dirt which comes off easy. The road chain bike is fairly clean
>> after lots of bike path riding but grimy soot-black after riding lots of
>> road. Gives me goose bumps thinking that I also breath whatever causes
>> this. I found the disposable interdental brushes to work great for
>> cleaning. First used for my teeth, rinsed, dried, they go into a coin
>> envelope and that is used up in the garage. So they all work two jobs.
>>
>> "Lubing takes 10mins because I carefully dab it onto each link via
>> Q-tip."
>>
>> As happens so often, we're left with a problem: Which version of Joerg
>> to believe?
>>
>
> That should have been one min. The 20mins is nearly all taken up by
> cleaning grime and sticky stuff.

I believe the Joerg who said the _cleaning_ takes 20 minutes, and the
_lubing_ takes 10 minutes. Or to generalize, I believe you do often
tell the truth when you've not backed yourself into a corner by making
silly statements.

But I don't believe the 10 minute estimate was a typo. I don't believe
you can file a chain pin down with any normal steel file. I don't
believe that you really repair chains by finding steel nails along a
trail and smacking things with rocks. I don't believe that your area
drivers are far more dangerous than those in most areas of the U.S. I
don't believe that your life has been saved several times by disk brakes
stopping you just before wildlife collisions. And so on.

I _do_ believe you'll now say you never made those claims. And I don't
believe it's worth the the time to track them all down, as I did with
your Q-tip story.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[James]

I wrote this reply in the thread "Another IGH, competitor to Rohloff?"

To be fair to Joerg, I tried filing a chain pin yesterday afternoon. I
managed to take a little metal off the pin and damaged my metal file.
Thankfully the file wasn't in good condition to begin with, but the file
marks on the pin looked nothing like the picture Joerg posted. Joerg's
file must have had real teeth or lumps of diamond - or more likely he
used a grinder.

While I confess I've not spent hours each week riding offroad, I have
done a fair bit over the decades, and never broken or bent a chain.

--
JS

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 10:30:25 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
Snipped

> I believe the Joerg who said the _cleaning_ takes 20 minutes, and the
> _lubing_ takes 10 minutes. Or to generalize, I believe you do often
> tell the truth when you've not backed yourself into a corner by making
> silly statements.
>
> But I don't believe the 10 minute estimate was a typo. I don't believe
> you can file a chain pin down with any normal steel file. I don't
> believe that you really repair chains by finding steel nails along a
> trail and smacking things with rocks. I don't believe that your area
> drivers are far more dangerous than those in most areas of the U.S. I
> don't believe that your life has been saved several times by disk brakes
> stopping you just before wildlife collisions. And so on.
>
> I _do_ believe you'll now say you never made those claims. And I don't
> believe it's worth the the time to track them all down, as I did with
> your Q-tip story.
>
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Methinks that Joerg makes up things and then posts here just to see what kind of rise he can get from people. So much of what Joerg claims is simply unbelievable to those of us who ride in similar or even worse conditions. SOme of Joergs claims such as fixing a broken chain by using a scrounged nail and rock in the boonies boggles the mind when he also claims to carry a substantial tool kit but no chain tool.

Cheers

[Joerg]

On 2017-06-20 19:48, James wrote:
> On 21/06/17 12:30, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 6/20/2017 5:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2017-06-20 14:38, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[...]

>>>
>>>> ... Certainly, I (and IIRC others) tried files
>>>> on chain pins and got the result I expected, which was slight damage to
>>>> the file, no discernible change in the chain pin.
>>>>
>>>> Those with a knowledge of Rockwell hardness would have easily
>>>> understood
>>>> this.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Those with knowledge of how to do this stuff and in possession of
>>> professional grade tools understand better.
>>
>> Bullshit, Joerg. There's no way you have as much time in a machine shop
>> as I have. There's no way you know as much about steel metallurgy,
>> hardness measurements or cutting tools as I do. There's no way your
>> files are better than my files. There's no way you have filed down
>> chain pins with any normal steel file.
>>

Sorry, Frank, but I have some doubts about that by now.

Frank, ever heard about ... progress? As in process improvement?

I used to dip and dab every link individually, then wipe the bottom.
Yes, that took a long time. Over time I found the soak and
dab-dab-dab-...-dab method to be way faster and providing a chain lube
as good as the first Q-Tip method. Maybe such progress doesn't happen in
your world. In mine it does.

>> But I don't believe the 10 minute estimate was a typo. I don't believe
>> you can file a chain pin down with any normal steel file. I don't
>> believe that you really repair chains by finding steel nails along a
>> trail and smacking things with rocks. I don't believe that your area
>> drivers are far more dangerous than those in most areas of the U.S. I
>> don't believe that your life has been saved several times by disk brakes
>> stopping you just before wildlife collisions. And so on.
>>
>> I _do_ believe you'll now say you never made those claims. And I don't
>> believe it's worth the the time to track them all down, as I did with
>> your Q-tip story.
>>
>>
>
>
> I wrote this reply in the thread "Another IGH, competitor to Rohloff?"
>
> To be fair to Joerg, I tried filing a chain pin yesterday afternoon. I
> managed to take a little metal off the pin and damaged my metal file.
> Thankfully the file wasn't in good condition to begin with, but the file
> marks on the pin looked nothing like the picture Joerg posted. Joerg's
> file must have had real teeth or lumps of diamond - or more likely he
> used a grinder.
>

No, I did not use a grinder. There is a huge difference between files.
The ones bought at a hardware store they are likely of mediocre hardness
unless they came from their locked display cabinet. Worse are the ones
that come in kits such as "3 for $19.99". The worst are those in
impressively large "Best Gift for Father's Day" sets.

Mine are professional grade files inherited from my grandpa. Some of
which he inherited from great-grandpa. They have serious wear marks and
mostly because I sometimes use them "off label", such as for wallowing
out large holes for which I do not have a matching drill bit. Or on
stuff that is too hard.

For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain pin is no
match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few strokes and not
a lot of pressure:

http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

This is the kind of chain I run on my road bike. Until very recently I
did not own a chain breaker yet have replaced and shortened dozens of
chains. To me they are a nice to have tool but not an essential one.

I have ruined many files over my life in a very short amount of time and
those were always cheap ones. Other than watch maker's files I have none
left that have a plastic handle. All remaining ones are the old style
with large wooden handles. They last and last.

> While I confess I've not spent hours each week riding offroad, I have
> done a fair bit over the decades, and never broken or bent a chain.
>

Depends on the turf. We have a lot of loose rocks laying on trails and
occasionally one gets into the works. It is an awful sound. Chains don't
usually break completely but they bend and one link side pops. Most
chains I helped "kludge back together" were from other riders.

Some guys are hardcore. Weeks later I noticed the bike of one rider
still didn't have a front derailer which had gotten shredded during his
chain-pretzeling event. "Is that still the same old chain?" ... "Yup!".
He used the redneck shifter, a piece of Manzanita stuck in with his
water bottle to nudge the chain over to the other chain ring. Making
sure never to get too close to large-large because his chain was now too
short.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/21/2017 10:13 AM, Joerg wrote:
>
> For a top quality industrial file a regular bicycle chain pin is no
> match. The filing exercise in the photo took just a few strokes and not
> a lot of pressure:
>
> http://analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chain1.jpg

I invite other readers to try filing their chain pins. I think you'll
find (as James and I did) that no steel file will put significant cuts
in the pin. Abrasives (e.g. aluminum oxide sandpaper, grinding wheels,
diamond "files") will cut the pin; but unless motorized, they'll cut it
pretty slowly.

Again: For at least a century, "file hard" has been a rough description
of practical hardness commonly used in machine shops. Steel that is
"file hard" is too hard to be cut with a file. It's even in
dictionaries: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/file-hard

I can't say that no file in the world will cut a chain pin. There may
be some exotic and rare files out there that I'm not familiar with. But
having worked in three machine shops for various lengths of time, I can
say that any normal "professional grade" steel file attacking a chain
pin will give you scratches in the file and no significant change in the
chain pin.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

I suggest to all readers to do this with a decent file. Professional
brand-name products from companies like this and not some generic
hardware store file:

https://www.pferdusa.com/products/201j/

My tool cabinet contains about 20 files which are mostly Pferd and Black
Diamond. If you buy new you need to be prepared to shell out $30-$50 per
file plus handle.

[Joerg]

Disclaimer: I shall not be responsible if you ruin your file.

Don't try this with one that is sub-par.

[Sir Ridesalot]

In other words you want bicyclists to buy a file that costs more than the chain they're trying to fix.

You have more excusess for stuff than what Caerter's had little liver pills. Also, the images you showed are indicative ofthe results of a GRNDER and not a file.

Cheers

[James]

I cannot be exact because I didn't measure what I used.

I started with a very large candle. I warmed it up in a pot on the
stove to liquify it, and added about 30-40% EP gear oil.

There is a recipe on the internet that uses paraffin wax and clear
paraffin oil in a 50/50 ratio. A mate uses that and it works fine and
is less smelly than the EP oil.

--
JS

[James]

But Joerg's files are "professional grade files inherited from my

grandpa. Some of which he inherited from great-grandpa."

They made steel much harder back then don't you know?

--
JS

[AMuzi]

I wondered about that too.
I wear out a first rate American made file in 4 to 6 months
of frame repair and nothing I work on is hardened.

[Joerg]

No. The orgininal discussion was whether a link pin can be filed down.
My statement was simply that if you have a decent file it can be done.
If you do not have a decent file buy a chain tool. It's cheaper.

What I meant was that someone who is equipped with the proper high
quality tools can do this job. Those who have cheap hobby tools can't.

If was no done with a grinder. If you accuse me of lying then further
discussion is meaningless.

[Joerg]

They made excellent files in the olden days. The ones I have are quite
worn. That is because grandpa was a steam locomotive engineer and he
bought tools that the railroad shop kicked out as too worn. He also
bought new ones but then only the best just like the railroad shop did.

Until recently I had no chain tool and over my lifetime have swapped out
dozens of chains via this method:

1. Lay down the bike.

2. File down a pin so the punch or hardened nail would not slip (which
could result in a major ouch situation).

3. Place link on a large metal block, anvil, whatever. Place steel nut
underneath link. Nut must be larger than pin.

4. Drive out pin with punch and hammer or hardened nail and hammer.

5. Do same with new chain to bring to required length. Mount chain, push
in the last pin, "caress" it with the hammer so it is firmly holding but
not too tight.

The only bikes that had removable links back in the old days in Europe
were single-gear classic ones. Road bikes usually didn't and that was my
favorite kind of bike (until mountain bikes appeared).

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I will attest to that. I inherited my father's tools and his files were all hell and gone better than what I can buy at the hardware store or Harbor Freight.

Just because they CAN make better files today doesn't mean that they do.

[jbeattie]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 6:27:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

This is like fixing a car with a shovel. I bought my first chain tool in the early '70s, and it cost me like $2. I couldn't imagine removing or installing a chain with a hammer, nail and file -- and presumably a block of wood or something to put under the chain when it was back on the bike for final install.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

They still make good ones but you'll have to buy Pferd and similar
brands. The top stuff isn't always available at hardware stores. What I
don't understand is people whining "Oh, it can't be done!" but they only
tried with some $4.99 hardware store file. Probably didn't even have a
handle which you need for this job.

The same goes for bigger gear. I have an electric drill from my grandpa
which is pre-WW2 vintage. Indestructible.

[Joerg]

I did use a borrowed chain tool once before I had my own. It broke. I
had to buy the guy a new one. Then I went back to my old method. The
chain tool I have now came with a bike repair tool kit, else I still
wouldn't have one.

[jbeattie]

I had a file once that I got from this crazy locomotive engineer. It broke. I went back to using my chain tool to file parts. I had a hex wrench break, too, so now I use vice grips -- or a hammer.

-- Jay Beattie.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

While I agree, I did manufacture some home-made tools to work on Campy brifters. And it did include using a nail as a punch.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

You have to be extremely careful to have the chain tool pin properly aligned or you can break it off. That's why most of these tools come with a couple of replacement tips.

[Duane]

Of course it did.

[Duane]

chains must be mystical. You can break a chain tool replacing one but a
nail and a stone works like a charm.

[jbeattie]

That's bike repair 303 and not Intro to Bike Repair. For high level stuff, you sometimes have to fabricate tools -- unless you're willing to spend a bundle on a Campy/Shimano, etc. one-use wonder tool, assuming you could find a source. A chain tool comes bundled on many pocket tools. You send your daughter off to college with a chain tool.

Back in the old days when I cleaned my chains and had a stable of bikes, I had (and still have) multiple chain tools, including chain pliers. I should sell my old Hozan pliers to Joerg. All I use these days is my Park shop tool and the quick-link pliers. And a file. I file everything with the ancient and ultra-hard files handed down to me by my Great Granddaddy who bought them from elves who forged them in middle-earth -- or Michigan, one of the two. BTW, my sister was a steam locomotive engineer, and she uses a chain tool and not a file. http://scholarworks.sjsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5765&context=spartandaily
(page 3)

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 10:02:21 AM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
> On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 6:27:23 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

Snipped

>
> > Until recently I had no chain tool and over my lifetime have swapped out
> > dozens of chains via this method:
> >
> > 1. Lay down the bike.
> >
> > 2. File down a pin so the punch or hardened nail would not slip (which
> > could result in a major ouch situation).
> >
> > 3. Place link on a large metal block, anvil, whatever. Place steel nut
> > underneath link. Nut must be larger than pin.
> >
> > 4. Drive out pin with punch and hammer or hardened nail and hammer.
> >
> > 5. Do same with new chain to bring to required length. Mount chain, push
> > in the last pin, "caress" it with the hammer so it is firmly holding but
> > not too tight.
> >
> > The only bikes that had removable links back in the old days in Europe
> > were single-gear classic ones. Road bikes usually didn't and that was my
> > favorite kind of bike (until mountain bikes appeared).
>
> This is like fixing a car with a shovel. I bought my first chain tool in the early '70s, and it cost me like $2. I couldn't imagine removing or installing a chain with a hammer, nail and file -- and presumably a block of wood or something to put under the chain when it was back on the bike for final install.
>
> -- Jay Beattie.

That's not to mention how insecure that sort of chain repair actually is. I'd never trust a chain that was put together in such a manner and I'd never let a person who repaired a chain that way anywhere near my bike.

I still think Jeorg is spouting pure unadulterated El Toro poo Poo.

Cheers

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Thursday, June 22, 2017 at 11:34:12 AM UTC-4, Duane wrote:
> On 22/06/2017 10:08 AM, Joerg wrote:

Snipped

> > I did use a borrowed chain tool once before I had my own. It broke. I
> > had to buy the guy a new one. Then I went back to my old method. The
> > chain tool I have now came with a bike repair tool kit, else I still
> > wouldn't have one.
> >
>
> Of course it did.

More bullshit from Joerg. If indeed he broke that chain tool then it was most likely a cheap white metal one or Joerg didn't center the chain tool pin over the chain pin and then he reefed on the tool with the pin against the the wrong part of the chain and that broke the tool. In other words he abused the tool and that caused it to fail.

Cheers

[sms]

I suspect the one you broke was one of the el-cheapo ones sold in drug
stores or department stores, though I can't ever recall breaking one of
those either, despite the low grade materials.

You probably solder 0201 surface mount components with a Weller 160W
soldering gun.

[sms]

On 6/22/17 6:51 AM, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

<snip>

> I will attest to that. I inherited my father's tools and his files were all hell and gone better than what I can buy at the hardware store or Harbor Freight.

I would not use Harbor Freight as any kind of a comparison. I'm sure you
can still buy good files, but not at Harbor Freight or Home Depot.

[Radey Shouman]

What's wrong with using a magnifying glass in the blazing Cameron Park
sun?

--

[Doug Landau]

Frank are files all the same? Are the cheap ones soft?

thx

[Joerg]

It was a chain tool made for modern chains and I used it on an older
chain with wider links. Should have used file, punch and hammer :-)

[Joerg]

It didn't like the wider links of 5/6-speed chains. The hammer and
punch, in contrast, never cared :-)

> You probably solder 0201 surface mount components with a Weller 160W
> soldering gun.
>

Not quite but I solder 0201 with 50W Weller stations. WECP-20 and
sometimes WES51. ETS tips are nice for that. When my age crept above 50
I started needing a 5x Donovan Optical head loupe. Most of my designs
nowadays don't go below 0401 but they do for sampling diodes and such.
Those things can be smaller than flees.

Aside from a nice set of top quality files my grandpa also left me
various soldering irons. The manly kind where you first make a nice hot
fire, place them in there and then solder. Not so great for SMT stuff
though.

Grandpa was always the early adopter when new technology came out. I
still have his first radio wit a tube that could rightfully claim to be
the world's first integrated circuit, 90 years old now:

http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_3nf.html

Have to get back to my brew kettle now. An Irish Red Ale will be made.
This morning I brewed an Autumn Amber Ale. Took the day off. While it
boils (outside) I alternate between doing some yard work and swimming in
the pool. Life is great :-)

You guys should see my brewing utensils. A lot more McGyver stuff than I
ever used on bicycle maintenance.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

And some people know how tools work and apparently you do not.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Yeah, for chains I only use the Park Tool and a set of combination pliers to removed the snap link.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Why did my Park chain breaker come with two extra tips and one I've already used? All it takes is the slightest misalignment of the tip and it will break right off. A nail would at worst, bend.

You know, I have a tool box for working on cars. I have another toolbox for working on bikes. Four drawers in my garage contain woodworking tools. Four drawers and three shelves woodworking power tools. Two entire steel racks for yard working tools and another tool box for boat working tools.

Listening to your crap tells me that you couldn't take your own temperature with an anal thermometer. You'd stick it in your mouth.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I forgot - I also have a telephone tool belt and another electronics tool box.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I doubt that any of the people here know that on modern electronics circuits you have to work under a microscope. Designing PC boards that use noise abatement technology is rather specialized.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/21/2017 8:59 PM, James wrote:
> On 21/06/17 08:16, jbeattie wrote:
>> On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 3:02:33 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Cooking in a hot wax/oil bath is much more effective.
>>
>> What is your formula, exactly. I'll be the tester. Just like with my
>> dynamo.
>>
>
> I cannot be exact because I didn't measure what I used.
>
> I started with a very large candle. I warmed it up in a pot on the
> stove to liquify it, and added about 30-40% EP gear oil.
>
> There is a recipe on the internet that uses paraffin wax and clear
> paraffin oil in a 50/50 ratio. A mate uses that and it works fine and
> is less smelly than the EP oil.

I think I used a lot less oil than that in my mix. It was long, long
ago, so I can't be sure.

At one point I read an article in an engineering magazine describing
research into boric acid as a lubricant additive. It wasn't this one
http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/368/1929/4851 but it
shows that some people are interested in this.

I mixed up another small batch of wax+oil with added boric acid and
tried that, but I couldn't detect any benefit; and I suspected it might
have caused faster rust on steel drivetrain parts.

To me, it seems like wax plus oil is good enough. It's got significant
advantages over other chain lubes, and the specific amount of oil in the
mix is not critical.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Well, as Joerg said, you should use a hardened nail. Those are what he
easily finds lying in the dirt alongside back country bike trails -
unlike in hardware stores, where 99% of the nails are made of low carbon
steel.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

That method sounds so superior to chain tools, I'm sure it must be what
most professional bike mechanics use!


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

Well keep in mind, nothing works for Joerg. Except his own amazing
inventions, of course.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[Frank Krygowski]

I doubt that all of anything are the same! The differences in files
would, I think, be metallurgy and heat treatment. I doubt you'll ever
get technical details from any manufacturer. But some could use plain
carbon steel (perhaps 1095) while others might have alloying elements
added. But plain carbon steel can get amazingly hard, which is the main
property needed in a file.

Most of mine are Nicholson brand and quite old, purchased back in the
1970s. That's a brand that has been pretty much standard issue in most
professional machine shops. I have a couple Craftsman files, and a few
various "off brands."

I've heard that Nicholson are now made in Mexico instead of the U.S.,
and some people have complained that they're not as good as they once
were. I can't speak to that.

When visiting my kid at college, I remember needing a file for something
and buying a cheap one from a discount store. It worked well, and I
think it's one of the ones still in my drawer downstairs, still just
fine. But that could be luck of the draw - as in "Gosh, I wonder what
little Chinese company made this, so I could buy more."

Also, the big disclaimer: I'm sure my files don't see nearly as much
action as Andrew's.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Jeff Lieberman and Stephen Scharf do. I used a USB microscope for a
while, one of those VEHO sub-$100 deals for students. Allows around 5"
scope-to-iron distance. Later I resorted to a head loupe because I do
not have to reposition that all the time when working on larger boards
of assembled prototypes. I lucked out. Donegan made 5x loupes for a
short time, I bought two right away and now they don't seem to have them
anymore. The highest I could see are 3.5x and that is marginal for me
when soldering 0201 parts, at least after I was well past 50.

http://www.doneganoptical.com/products/optivisor


> ... Designing PC boards

> that use noise abatement technology is rather specialized.
>

You lost me there. Noise abatement on a board? The only cases I had were
for large aircraft, in the cabin where we had to neutralize the
400/800Hz "singing" by clever component placement and such. Other times
we had to "smoosh" magnetostrictive noise from ferrite cores.

[Joerg]

For rarely used tools my wife and I have the mantra "Do not buy what
just clogs shelf space most of the time if there is another way".
Swapping out a chain didn't take me longer than today where I have a
chain tool. Mainly because I do not trust a pin that's just pressed in
for riding. I want it "petted" with a hammer to make sure it stays at
its assigned job location.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

The last board I worked on was less than 2" square. The crystal and CPU operated at 10 MHz so between signal lines you have to have ground wires to reduce cross-talk. The traces are so narrow and in places you simply can't see them without a microscope. And you also have to have a perfectly steady hand to solder them. where ever you can you absolutely must have ground planes. And add to this I had to program it for absolutely minimum battery drain.

Noise abatement means more than not being able to shout over Frank and Joerg arguing.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Today I was looking about on Ebay for medium length arm rear derailleurs. Then it occurred to me that I have a long arm Chorus derailleur on one of the Colnagos up for sale.

So I removed it and put it on the Basso and put the Basso's short arm Centaur onto the Colnago. I didn't even have to change the chain length on either nor the cable.

Since the Colnago is a compact with the hollow crankpin it ended up with both of the bikes actually shifting better.

An hour of work to improve both bikes.

[Doug Landau]

On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 8:19:14 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 10:30:25 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> Snipped
> > I believe the Joerg who said the _cleaning_ takes 20 minutes, and the
> > _lubing_ takes 10 minutes. Or to generalize, I believe you do often
> > tell the truth when you've not backed yourself into a corner by making
> > silly statements.
> >
> > But I don't believe the 10 minute estimate was a typo. I don't believe
> > you can file a chain pin down with any normal steel file. I don't
> > believe that you really repair chains by finding steel nails along a
> > trail and smacking things with rocks. I don't believe that your area
> > drivers are far more dangerous than those in most areas of the U.S. I
> > don't believe that your life has been saved several times by disk brakes
> > stopping you just before wildlife collisions. And so on.
> >
> > I _do_ believe you'll now say you never made those claims. And I don't
> > believe it's worth the the time to track them all down, as I did with
> > your Q-tip story.
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
>
> Methinks that Joerg makes up things and then posts here just to see what kind of rise he can get from people. So much of what Joerg claims is simply unbelievable to those of us who ride in similar or even worse conditions. SOme of Joergs claims such as fixing a broken chain by using a scrounged nail and rock in the boonies boggles the mind when he also claims to carry a substantial tool kit but no chain tool.

Like Winnie-the-Pooh, Joerg loves a good story, and feels that the best stories are those of which he is the subject, and it is difficult to argue
with this sort of logic

[Joerg]

On 2017-06-23 10:30, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 7:44:15 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-06-22 14:02, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

>>> ... Designing PC boards that use noise abatement technology is
>>> rather specialized.
>>>
>>
>> You lost me there. Noise abatement on a board? The only cases I had
>> were for large aircraft, in the cabin where we had to neutralize
>> the 400/800Hz "singing" by clever component placement and such.
>> Other times we had to "smoosh" magnetostrictive noise from ferrite
>> cores.
>
> The last board I worked on was less than 2" square. The crystal and
> CPU operated at 10 MHz so between signal lines you have to have
> ground wires to reduce cross-talk. The traces are so narrow and in
> places you simply can't see them without a microscope. And you also
> have to have a perfectly steady hand to solder them. where ever you
> can you absolutely must have ground planes. And add to this I had to
> program it for absolutely minimum battery drain.
>
> Noise abatement means more than not being able to shout over Frank
> and Joerg arguing.
>

Ah, you meant electical noise or EMI. That is part of my home turf. Some
of my self-employment consists of companies calling me in when they
can't get that stuff under control.

So far I had nothing with traces narrower than 0.005" though. Except IC
design, of course.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Most of your noise is circuit noise I would expect rather than EMI. You analog guys love stuff less than half a megahertz.

[Joerg]

The most grief I deal with after a client blew EMC is in the 300-800MHz
region. Processor bus harmonics and such. Also, digital quickly becomes
analog again once you get above 1GHz. Even EMC is now measured up to
6GHz in most jurisdictions and the remedies are considered voodoo by
most. "What do you mean, you just bent a piece of our sheet metal and
that made it go away?

[Joerg]

Not necessary on the trail. Any piece will do once the pin is flattened.
My old student's tool kit contained a hardened nail where I ground the
tip flat. Yes, with one of grandpa's files. On the trail I don't care
whether whatever metal piece I find is "one time use" but at home I did.

Talk to scouts. They know how to make do with the minimum in gear and
tools yet live quite comfortably out in the wilderness.

> unlike in hardware stores, where 99% of the nails are made of low carbon
> steel.
>

You never saw nails suitable to be driven into concrete? Do you think
tack strips for carpeting are fastened on slab with rubber nails?

[Frank Krygowski]

I may have to explain to you what 99% means.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

Go to a (good) HW store and re-check that 99%.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I think that you and Joerg who are both valued contributors should get over this friction that the two of you have for almost no reason. The whole thing started as an inferred slight. And then grew to traded insults. Both of you are better than that.

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm pretty sure if I spouted weird ideas here about analog circuit
design, Joerg wouldn't let that rest. You probably wouldn't either, even
though analog electronics is not part of this group's purview.

Repair of chains (with chain tools or with files, rocks and nails) is a
valid topic for this group. So is metallurgy as applied to bikes and
their tools. On such topics, while I can and do ignore a certain amount
of nonsense, there are limits.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[cycl...@gmail.com]

Well of course it's weird. He wasn't saying that this was something that he did as a matter of course - it was a trick used out on a trail because he didn't want to carry a chain tool. I looked at the chain tool that comes on the multi-tool and that was about as liable to work as Joerg's nail and rock.

The entire idea of passing on some sort of weird trick is that if you ever get caught someplace you could possibly fix it yourself and get home.

Remember that a couple of months ago we went through that business about why anyone should use a sealed bearing BB? Well, if that unit of mine had even loosened up partially it would have dropped ball out of the bottom of the BB and I would have been stuck. With the sealed unit I managed to ride 12 miles home and simply put it back together again.

And my question about electrolytes? Today I did 56 miles and 1700 feet of climbing. I have a can of Red Bull right now and since I used another can three days ago and it seemed to work I expect to fully recover overnight.

I was also flabbergast when SMS had the idea that filling tires with pure nitrogen would have any positive effect on a racing bike. I'm sure that was one of those urban myths that grows up and after he heard it a couple of times he believed it without thinking much about it. That's one of the things that this group dispels.

You're a mechanical engineer and Joerg is an analog electronics engineer and Andre is a pretty damn good writer and we all usually bow to Muzi's specific knowledge of bicycles. The others add their parts even if we razz hell out of them.

We have a good group here and it's perfectly fine to get mad at someone. Let's just not carry it on.

[James]

On 26/06/17 07:54, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:

I snipped all but the pertinent bit I am going to reply about. It makes
reading mail much easier. I don't bother reading much of the
exceedingly long unsnipped posts because I cannot be bothered scrolling
down for half a minute past the old messages to find the new content.

>
> And my question about electrolytes? Today I did 56 miles and 1700
> feet of climbing. I have a can of Red Bull right now and since I used
> another can three days ago and it seemed to work I expect to fully
> recover overnight.
>

Good luck with that.

I'd prefer a litre of water, a cup of coffee and a piece of fruit cake,
followed by some gentle exercise after a short rest.

--
Js

[John B.]

On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 07:34:01 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

The last time I bought nails (at a good hardware shop) they had no
"concrete nails" at all. So the 99% was incorrect. It was 100%.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 08:33:44 +1000, James <james.e...@gmail.com>
wrote:

(smile) well, according to the label the Red Bull is about equal to a
cup of very strong coffee with a lot of sugar in it. The litre of
water is more or less what the Medics will give you for loss of blood
volume and the fruit cake tastes good :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

[cycl...@gmail.com]

I don't know where you get your ingredients from since Red Bull has about the same caffeine as a quarter cup of weak coffee.

Most of the ingredients are water and salts with a bit of sugar and flavoring.

[Emanuel Berg]

cycl...@gmail.com writes:

> I don't know where you get your ingredients from
> since Red Bull has about the same caffeine as
> a quarter cup of weak coffee.
>
> Most of the ingredients are water and salts with
> a bit of sugar and flavoring.

A person I know saw a documentary where they gave rats
either sugar-free or normal sodas and energy drinks.

They also gave the rats access to food.

Apparently the experiment showed that the rats that
got the non-sugar drinks ate more food, and had
a slower metabolism.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

[Frank Krygowski]

On 6/25/2017 6:33 PM, James wrote:
> On 26/06/17 07:54, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I snipped all but the pertinent bit I am going to reply about. It makes
> reading mail much easier. I don't bother reading much of the
> exceedingly long unsnipped posts because I cannot be bothered scrolling
> down for half a minute past the old messages to find the new content.

It is true, trimming seems to have gone out of fashion. Why?

>> And my question about electrolytes? Today I did 56 miles and 1700
>> feet of climbing. I have a can of Red Bull right now and since I used
>> another can three days ago and it seemed to work I expect to fully
>> recover overnight.
>>
>
> Good luck with that.
>
> I'd prefer a litre of water, a cup of coffee and a piece of fruit cake,
> followed by some gentle exercise after a short rest.

I usually drink orange juice with added salt after a hard (for me) hot
ride.

It's not that I read or heard that it's effective. Years ago, I stopped
at a friend's house on my way home from such a ride. He asked what I'd
like to drink, and I had an instantaneous craving for orange juice with
salt. I've tried to respect that ever since.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Actually, 8.4 oz of Red Bull (a can) has 80 mg of caffeine. A cup of coffee varies. My usual poison, a double shot of espresso, has 100 mg of caffeine. http://www.math.utah.edu/~yplee/fun/caffeine.html

Red Bull is not a "sports drink." It's an "energy drink," viz. a stimulant drink. http://awordonnutrition.com/sepost/energy-drinks-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/?type=article Stimulants have their place. I get caffeine in GU gel packs, which are kind of bail-out food. Way back when, I got caffeine and ephedra in Pocket Rockets -- one of the first gel packs. I ate so many of those in a long road race 20+ years ago that I was shaking by the end of the race and couldn't sleep that night. My drink of choice is Hammer Heed -- which is easy on my stomach and actually makes my muscles feel less tired. GU packs for a quick burst and head-clearing, and Cliff Bars for food (among other things). Try a good sports drink from a mix.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Sunday, June 25, 2017 at 9:02:26 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
Big snip

> The last time I bought nails (at a good hardware shop) they had no
> "concrete nails" at all. So the 99% was incorrect. It was 100%.
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Not to mention that those who build fences (from where Joerg claimed to scrounge a nail) do NOT use concrete nails or any other hardened steel nail.

Still easier and better to use a chaintool on a bicycle chain.

Cheers