Chain lube for wet _and_ dry?

[Joerg]

Chain lube is probably a contentious topic. On the road bike I am happy
since a thorough cleaning and application of White Lightning Epic Ride
easily lasts 200 miles.

Mountain bike, very different story. On dry dusty rides I can get 50
miles out of an Epic Ride lube without the chain making nasty noises.
But when the ride is dry and then wet all bets are off. Yesterday it was
the usual dusty ride at first but a slight yet persistent drizzle
started about 10 miles into the ride. Long story short a mere 35 miles
after a fresh lube the chain started making horrid squeaking noises once
the rain had stopped. Seemingly the lube had been flushed out. I had no
choice but to continue another 10mi in order to get home. Mostly uphill
and the sound was awful.

Most advice sites split between wet and dry situations but that just
does not cut it outside summer season:

http://oldglorymtb.com/best-mountain-bike-chain-lube-for-wet-or-dry-conditions/

The chain is a KMC X93 10-speed. I need a lube that lasts through a 50mi
dirt trail ride regardless of weather conditions.

Any words of wisdom from other all-weather MTB riders?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[John B.]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 16:59:11 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Try the paraffin lube system that both James and Frank use, or
alternately use a commercial chain lube as used in industry. See
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/729/chain-lubrication

I used to use "wax", and may go back to that system, and currently use
a commercial chain oil and both last far longer than what you mention
in tropical monsoon weather.
--
cheers,

John B.

[Joerg]

On 2016-09-22 18:35, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 16:59:11 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Chain lube is probably a contentious topic. On the road bike I am happy
>> since a thorough cleaning and application of White Lightning Epic Ride
>> easily lasts 200 miles.
>>
>> Mountain bike, very different story. On dry dusty rides I can get 50
>> miles out of an Epic Ride lube without the chain making nasty noises.
>> But when the ride is dry and then wet all bets are off. Yesterday it was
>> the usual dusty ride at first but a slight yet persistent drizzle
>> started about 10 miles into the ride. Long story short a mere 35 miles
>> after a fresh lube the chain started making horrid squeaking noises once
>> the rain had stopped. Seemingly the lube had been flushed out. I had no
>> choice but to continue another 10mi in order to get home. Mostly uphill
>> and the sound was awful.
>>
>> Most advice sites split between wet and dry situations but that just
>> does not cut it outside summer season:
>>
>> http://oldglorymtb.com/best-mountain-bike-chain-lube-for-wet-or-dry-conditions/
>>
>> The chain is a KMC X93 10-speed. I need a lube that lasts through a 50mi
>> dirt trail ride regardless of weather conditions.
>>
>> Any words of wisdom from other all-weather MTB riders?
>
> Try the paraffin lube system that both James and Frank use,

If that means boiling the chain in a paraffin pot, storing chains in
there and mount them in a rotating pattern as a high-mileage ciclyst
friend does, I don't really want to go to that much effort.


> ... or

> alternately use a commercial chain lube as used in industry. See
> http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/729/chain-lubrication
>

Same thing there, they distinguish between dry or wet situations. Most
times outside of summer we have dry plus wet, not either/or.

> I used to use "wax", and may go back to that system, and currently use
> a commercial chain oil and both last far longer than what you mention
> in tropical monsoon weather.
>

Can you share the type and brand name of that miracle chain oil? Though
I believe you ride on roads almost exclusively. I am on dirt most of the
time. This means lots of brown dust when it's dry, water when it rains
and mud splatters after it stopped raining. Often all during one ride.

Dirt bike chain lube works very well but it is nasty and sticky. It
clings to skin like glue and is almost impossible to wash out of
clothing. After clearing up a bad chain suck the hands are intensely
soiled and you essentially can't go into a restaurant or pub anymore.

[Frank Krygowski]

In my case, it doesn't mean that. It means waxing the chain while it's
on the bike, using a low-flame propane torch to heat about 10 links at a
time. It takes less than five minutes per bike.

I'd give details yet again, but it probably wouldn't work for you.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joerg]

I have a propane torch and also a 240V industrial (electrical) hot air
gun used for shrink tubing. Why wouldn't it work for me? Because of the
grit and dust from trails?

Chain cleaning takes at least 20mins each bike. The MTB chain has caked
brown dirt which comes off easy. The road chain bike is fairly clean
after lots of bike path riding but grimy soot-black after riding lots of
road. Gives me goose bumps thinking that I also breath whatever causes
this. I found the disposable interdental brushes to work great for
cleaning. First used for my teeth, rinsed, dried, they go into a coin
envelope and that is used up in the garage. So they all work two jobs.

Lubing takes 10mins because I carefully dab it onto each link via Q-tip.

[jbeattie]

You go to all that work, yet you use a hose-clamp on your headset. Incroyable.

I clean my chain in an ultrasonic cleaner followed by an autoclave and then polish each link with a Dremel buffer followed by final polish with a Q-tip and Semichrome. Then I apply a five-part "wax" lubricant containing molybdenum, graphite, Teflon and parafin and nitro-glycerin. Mixing safely is critical.

I allow that to dry thoroughly for a week followed by a 73.25 hour curing period in a heat/humidity controlled chamber that I built in my garage. One the chain is ready to ride, it produce a characteristic smell that can be detected by my specially trained Chihuahua lube-dog.

In the alternative, I skip all cleaning, squirt on some motorcycle chain lube -- or whatever lubricant is sitting next to the garage door -- and then go for a ride.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message
news:e4l7rk...@mid.individual.net...

In the days when I still trusted those tubs of chain lube wax that you put
on the stove - I started wondering if there's a risk of ruining the temper
of the steel.

Parafin is good for cleaning chains, but you can get cellulose thinners
cheap as "gun wash". It usually has a bit of sediment, but it doesn't leave
as much film as the fuel-oil.

My preferred method of lubrication is to pre treat with molybdenum and then
use PTFE.

The cheapest moly is car wheel bearing grease, but its tedious to apply
evenly and makes a mess. Molyslip engine additive is more expensive, but can
be applied with an oil can.

There's various options for the ongoing PTFE - Finish-line PTFE bicycle
grease, Slick 50 engine additive or the more expensive dry powder PTFE -
once you get it on there; it doesn't fling off.

[Joerg]

As I said the hose clamp works great :-)

The chain lube, not so much. Before I cleaned the MTB chain this
thoroughly the lube lasted even less. Now that I upped my ride mileage I
need it to last at least one ride. Not 3/4 of a ride.

> I clean my chain in an ultrasonic cleaner followed by an autoclave
> and then polish each link with a Dremel buffer followed by final
> polish with a Q-tip and Semichrome. Then I apply a five-part "wax"
> lubricant containing molybdenum, graphite, Teflon and parafin and
> nitro-glycerin. Mixing safely is critical.
>
> I allow that to dry thoroughly for a week followed by a 73.25 hour
> curing period in a heat/humidity controlled chamber that I built in
> my garage. One the chain is ready to ride, it produce a
> characteristic smell that can be detected by my specially trained
> Chihuahua lube-dog.
>

Can't do that, I'd have all the mountian lions trailing me because of
the scent. Especially those with a molybdenum fetish.

> In the alternative, I skip all cleaning, squirt on some motorcycle
> chain lube -- or whatever lubricant is sitting next to the garage
> door -- and then go for a ride.
>

But probably not on a MTB. I once helped a buddy bend and fix his broken
chain (luckily I carried a spare link). He "lubes" with dirt bike chain
spray. The visit to the pub afterwards was embarrassing, holding my
stained hands behind me while ordering. Oh, and the handles on my MTB
looked the part as well after that ride.

[Joerg]

My wife would object to cooking bicycle chains in the kitchen. Well, at
least she allows me to boil the wort for beer brewing in there but
afterwards I have to take it outside.

> My preferred method of lubrication is to pre treat with molybdenum and
> then use PTFE.
>
> The cheapest moly is car wheel bearing grease, but its tedious to apply
> evenly and makes a mess. Molyslip engine additive is more expensive, but
> can be applied with an oil can.
>

I only found Molyslip in the UK but could ask at the car place here in
town. I live in the Western US. Maybe they can order it somehow.

http://www.molyslip.com/

Do you use that on dirt trails?

> There's various options for the ongoing PTFE - Finish-line PTFE bicycle
> grease, Slick 50 engine additive or the more expensive dry powder PTFE -
> once you get it on there; it doesn't fling off.

The White Lightning I use right now is essentially a PTFE lube. It works
great on the road bike, gives me over 200mi per lube which is beyond
expectations. Problem is that it's sometimes less than 40mi on the MTB
and my trail rides are longer than that.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

goo.gl/LQjtMV ….. drier/cleaner

goo.gl/yIdt3F….. wetter/gritty

https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1127&bih=546&q=crc+hd+silicone&oq=crc+hd+silicone&gs_l=img.12...1781.5943.0.9588.15.8.0.7.0.0.270.1186.1j0j5.6.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..2.5.911...0.8p3zVHT78Qw#imgrc=kk-yA0a6RGMjlM%3A

refresh wax with CRC

[Frank Krygowski]

I was basing it on your long track record of saying that nothing works
for you, except the things you come up with on your own.

> Chain cleaning takes at least 20mins each bike. The MTB chain has caked
> brown dirt which comes off easy. The road chain bike is fairly clean
> after lots of bike path riding but grimy soot-black after riding lots of
> road. Gives me goose bumps thinking that I also breath whatever causes
> this. I found the disposable interdental brushes to work great for
> cleaning. First used for my teeth, rinsed, dried, they go into a coin
> envelope and that is used up in the garage. So they all work two jobs.
>
> Lubing takes 10mins because I carefully dab it onto each link via Q-tip.

Yow.

There was a time I carefully applied oil to each pin, after first
washing the chain down with either a solvent bath or WD-40 on the bike.
Then I'd have to wash the bike because of the accumulation of black gunk
on cogs, chainrings, spokes, chainstay, etc. But I stopped being that
fussy decades ago.

The thing about paraffin wax (with a bit of oil blended in) is that it
picks up almost no road grit in the first place. The only chain
cleaning I do is back-pedaling the chain through a wad of paper towels
after the wax has been applied. This lube has been shown to give the
longest chain life by far. And supposedly, if you use teflon powder in
place of oil in the mix, it's the most efficient i.e. lowest friction loss.

But YMMV usually varies way, way more than anyone else's. So it

probably wouldn't work for you.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:e4li5j...@mid.individual.net...

Molyslip engine treatment used to be easy to get hold of - last time I
wanted some, Halfords only had Molyslip gearbox treatment.

There are probably other molybdenum oil treatments - I just don't know about
any of them.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:e4li5j...@mid.individual.net...

Dry film PTFE doesn't fling off and grit doesn't stick to it so much.

PTFE works a lot better if you work molybdenum into the metal surfaces
first.

[Doug Landau]

If it's wet and going to be wet for the duration of the ride, skip the lube and let rainwater lube it.

[Lou Holtman]

Exactly.

--
Lou

[Lou Holtman]

Interdental brushes, Q tips, unbelievable....

--
Lou

[Sir Ridesalot]

Joerg's doing it all wrong! Sheldon Brown showed the best way to clean and lube a chain. Follow the Master.

http://sheldonbrown.com/chainclean.html

Cheers

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

I reuse the thinner/cleaner ...deodorized mimeral spirits so grit accumulates at bottom.

finding that a second shake n rinse..chain in bottle with clear poured off thinner from the first shaking ....settles abt 1-2 grams of silica sand grains.

for a 3rd rinse there will be a small grey deposit of fine debris but WTH ? 2 is good.

now try that with brushing ? that sand comes from inside link plates n no brush is gonna ream that out only plate movements

[Joerg]

Cool!

Thanks. I bookmarked that.

[Joerg]

Right, but I really do not want to take the chain off every time I lube.
Which is pretty much after every ride.

[Joerg]

I'll have to inquire at an auto parts store because there are no Halford
stores in the former colony.

[Joerg]

That's what I was forced to do on Wednesday. Problem is, at some point
it stopped raining, the chain dried and then it let off those awful
squealing noises.

[John B.]

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 10:42:23 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Well, if it is "no effort" then just clean the chain with a solvent
and ride. The chain won't last long but it won't get your hands dirty
either.

>
>> ... or
>> alternately use a commercial chain lube as used in industry. See
>> http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/729/chain-lubrication
>>
>
>Same thing there, they distinguish between dry or wet situations. Most
>times outside of summer we have dry plus wet, not either/or.
>

That is simply wrong. I suspect that you looked for bicycle chain oil
but if you try industrial chain oil you will get a different answer.

>
>> I used to use "wax", and may go back to that system, and currently use
>> a commercial chain oil and both last far longer than what you mention
>> in tropical monsoon weather.
>>
>
>Can you share the type and brand name of that miracle chain oil? Though
>I believe you ride on roads almost exclusively. I am on dirt most of the
>time. This means lots of brown dust when it's dry, water when it rains
>and mud splatters after it stopped raining. Often all during one ride.

Sure. CRC makes chain oils and at least one called a corrosion
inhibitor that appears very much like the material that Shimano coats
new chains with. "

>Dirt bike chain lube works very well but it is nasty and sticky. It
>clings to skin like glue and is almost impossible to wash out of
>clothing. After clearing up a bad chain suck the hands are intensely
>soiled and you essentially can't go into a restaurant or pub anymore.

Well, you can't have it both ways. You run a roller chain in a hostile
environment, you want it to be clean so you won't get your fingers
dirty and you want long chain life. And you are too lazy to use wax.

Industrial use includes, for example, use in very dusty environments,
like cement mills, or wet environments like pulp mills. All of which
conditions are discussed in various publications.

See http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/729/chain-lubrication
for one example among many. However, not getting your hands dirty is
usually not one of the main criteria for industrial use.

However, frankly I doubt if you will ever find a lubricant to suit
your desires. i.e., cheap, easy to use, great protection and clean.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

Do you feel that the nitro-glycerin or the lube by the garage door
gives the best service life?

(would one say "bang for a buck"?)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 13:30:19 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Gee, the pubs I've been in all had "toilets" where one could wash
their hands. What sort of places do you frequent?
--
cheers,

John B.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

I allow that to dry thoroughly for a week

/////////////// essential

anyone try friction modifier

with an added compatible thinner... ?

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_17/162-4116624-3859545?url=search-alias%3Dautomotive&field-keywords=friction+modifier+additive&sprefix=friction+modifier%2Caps%2C5272

[David Scheidt]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
:Chain lube is probably a contentious topic. On the road bike I am happy
:since a thorough cleaning and application of White Lightning Epic Ride
:easily lasts 200 miles.

I use chain-l. lasts much longer than that, even in Chicgo winters
(which are harder on the chain and lube than most mud.).


--
sig 34

[jbeattie]

If you ride long enough in the rain, that's what happens. It does not matter what lube you use -- wax or oil. Some heavier products last a few minutes longer.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Lou Holtman]

Op 24-9-2016 om 5:56 schreef jbeattie:

In general, lube that holds well in the rain attracts dirt because it
has to be 'sticky'. Dry lube that doesn't attract dirt doesn't hold well
in the rain and has to be applied more often. A 'Wunderwaffen' is not
invented yet IMO. The best lube for rides in the rain is Rohloff chain
oil but it leaves an incredable mess after a while and for that reason
I don't use it anymore except for my winterevening bike. For the best
chain live my bet is on the dry lube applied more often.

Lou

[Joerg]

So do ours.

https://danieljmitchell.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/outhouse.jpg

The problem is, that stuff does not come off even with copious amounts
of soap and long scrubbing. I could take along my shop soap and some
sand, just in case. But at some point I then might also carry the
kitchen sink on the MTB.

[Joerg]

But not for dirt bikers. However, they also have o-ringed chains,
something us lowly mountain bikers will never be afforded.

>> -- Jay Beattie.
>>
>
> In general, lube that holds well in the rain attracts dirt because it
> has to be 'sticky'. Dry lube that doesn't attract dirt doesn't hold well
> in the rain and has to be applied more often. A 'Wunderwaffen' is not
> invented yet IMO. The best lube for rides in the rain is Rohloff chain
> oil but it leaves an incredable mess after a while and for that reason
> I don't use it anymore except for my winterevening bike. For the best
> chain live my bet is on the dry lube applied more often.
>

Then I might as well stay with my "semi-dry" lube (White Lightning Epic
Ride) and let the chain squeal and rattle after a long rain.

A really nice gadget would be a chain oiler like on chain saws. Not
automatic but one where you can push a little squirt button for one
revolution upon which a slight mist of oil deposits on the chain.

[Joerg]

Do you have a link to that? Under "Chain-1" I get all sorts of links but
not for a lube.

[Joerg]

On 2016-09-23 17:37, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 10:42:23 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2016-09-22 18:35, John B. wrote:

[...]

>>> ... or
>>> alternately use a commercial chain lube as used in industry. See
>>> http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/729/chain-lubrication
>>>
>>
>> Same thing there, they distinguish between dry or wet situations. Most
>> times outside of summer we have dry plus wet, not either/or.
>>
> That is simply wrong. I suspect that you looked for bicycle chain oil
> but if you try industrial chain oil you will get a different answer.
>

In your link they do distinguish between wet and dusty and recommend
different lubrication.

>>
>>> I used to use "wax", and may go back to that system, and currently use
>>> a commercial chain oil and both last far longer than what you mention
>>> in tropical monsoon weather.
>>>
>>
>> Can you share the type and brand name of that miracle chain oil? Though
>> I believe you ride on roads almost exclusively. I am on dirt most of the
>> time. This means lots of brown dust when it's dry, water when it rains
>> and mud splatters after it stopped raining. Often all during one ride.
>
> Sure. CRC makes chain oils and at least one called a corrosion
> inhibitor that appears very much like the material that Shimano coats
> new chains with. "
>

This kind?

https://www.grainger.com/product/CRC-Extreme-Duty-Open-Gear-Chain-1HBK7

One CRC's web site I could otherwise only find food grade chain lubes.

http://www.crcindustries.com.au/products/food-grade/food-grade-chain-lube-new

>> Dirt bike chain lube works very well but it is nasty and sticky. It
>> clings to skin like glue and is almost impossible to wash out of
>> clothing. After clearing up a bad chain suck the hands are intensely
>> soiled and you essentially can't go into a restaurant or pub anymore.
>
> Well, you can't have it both ways. You run a roller chain in a hostile
> environment, you want it to be clean so you won't get your fingers
> dirty and you want long chain life. And you are too lazy to use wax.
>
> Industrial use includes, for example, use in very dusty environments,
> like cement mills, or wet environments like pulp mills. All of which
> conditions are discussed in various publications.
>
> See http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/729/chain-lubrication
> for one example among many. However, not getting your hands dirty is
> usually not one of the main criteria for industrial use.
>
> However, frankly I doubt if you will ever find a lubricant to suit
> your desires. i.e., cheap, easy to use, great protection and clean.
>

It desn't have to be clean as long as the stuff somehow comes off with
normal bathroom soap in a restaurant.

[AMuzi]

On 9/24/2016 9:18 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-09-23 20:27, David Scheidt wrote:
>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>> :Chain lube is probably a contentious topic. On the road
>> bike I am happy
>> :since a thorough cleaning and application of White
>> Lightning Epic Ride
>> :easily lasts 200 miles.
>>
>> I use chain-l. lasts much longer than that, even in
>> Chicgo winters
>> (which are harder on the chain and lube than most mud.).
>>
>
> Do you have a link to that? Under "Chain-1" I get all sorts
> of links but not for a lube.
>

http://chain-l.com/


--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[David Scheidt]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

:On 2016-09-23 20:27, David Scheidt wrote:
:> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
:> :Chain lube is probably a contentious topic. On the road bike I am happy
:> :since a thorough cleaning and application of White Lightning Epic Ride
:> :easily lasts 200 miles.
:>
:> I use chain-l. lasts much longer than that, even in Chicgo winters
:> (which are harder on the chain and lube than most mud.).
:>

:Do you have a link to that? Under "Chain-1" I get all sorts of links but
:not for a lube.

It's an L not a one.

http://chain-l.com/



--
sig 12

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

L's rephewers ride on pool tables occasionally stepping off to shovel manure.

Adding a drop or 3 of Friction Mod to Valve Synthetic ? per app ....off a QT

Is poss fluids V uses are not available to a garage operation, available only contracted in bulk

[jbeattie]

I ride in the rain more than half the year and manage to get by with ordinary lubricants applied frequently. I'll buy special bicycle chain lubricants like Pro-Gold if I can get it cheap on sale. Otherwise, its little bottles of TriFlow that they were practically giving away at Western Bikeworks -- or motorcycle chain lube, or some generic PTFEE-containing spray. I have way too much to do around the house this time of year to be spending hours cleaning and lubing chains. And again, cleaning occurs on the wash stand -- or naturally on the way to work if I stick to the roads, and its pre-leaf fall. http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/leaves-path1.jpg Gotta love bike lanes in the fall. They back up the storm drains and you end up riding through lake-sized puddles that are a foot deep. We've lost many children in them. http://tinyurl.com/jsy2yqu

-- Jay Beattie.

[Benderthe.evilrobot]

"Joerg" <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote in message

news:e4lqm9...@mid.individual.net...

Molybdenum disulphide CV car wheel bearing should be cheap and easy to
find - but its tedious to apply and is messy.

[Joerg]

https://www.amazon.com/Gold-Products-ProGold-ProLink-Chain/dp/B000VT2HKQ?th=1&psc=1

$10 for 4oz, yikes. Is it really better than White Lightning Epic Ride?
If it is like some reviewers commented then it sure is worth it.

> Otherwise, its little bottles of TriFlow that they were practically
> giving away at Western Bikeworks -- or motorcycle chain lube, or some
> generic PTFEE-containing spray. I have way too much to do around the
> house this time of year to be spending hours cleaning and lubing
> chains.

It doesn't take hours. I usually do it when starting the barbecue. Often
I grill or bake over wood fire and out here one must watch such a fire.
Takes about 20 minutes to die down to coals and I can do one bike chain
during that time, always keeping an eye on the fire. Another option
would be during the wort boil (beer brewing) but the portable burner for
outside is too weak.


> ... And again, cleaning occurs on the wash stand -- or naturally

> on the way to work if I stick to the roads, and its pre-leaf fall.
> http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/leaves-path1.jpg
> Gotta love bike lanes in the fall.

My winter routes look more like this on in Colorado:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhnS8-3QwG4

Some folks can't hack it:

https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.downloaddreams.com%2Fpics%2Fgirls_in_mud%2Fmuddy_mountainbike_tour_011.jpg&sp=1801908fa16d9bdc12a237533ab67f74

I've had times when the rear wheel would not turn even in granny gear,
on account of a massive mud cake piled around the BB. This is my bike
during winter in fairly clean condition:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy3.JPG


> ... They back up the storm drains and

> you end up riding through lake-sized puddles that are a foot deep.
> We've lost many children in them. http://tinyurl.com/jsy2yqu
>

Once I plowed through a river, underestimated the fierceness of the
water flow, had to hop off and had to hold my MTB real good in order not
to lose it. Came out super spiffy clean on the other side.

[Joerg]

On 2016-09-24 07:33, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/24/2016 9:18 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-09-23 20:27, David Scheidt wrote:
>>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>>> :Chain lube is probably a contentious topic. On the road
>>> bike I am happy
>>> :since a thorough cleaning and application of White
>>> Lightning Epic Ride
>>> :easily lasts 200 miles.
>>>
>>> I use chain-l. lasts much longer than that, even in
>>> Chicgo winters
>>> (which are harder on the chain and lube than most mud.).
>>>
>>
>> Do you have a link to that? Under "Chain-1" I get all sorts
>> of links but not for a lube.
>>
> http://chain-l.com/
>

Ah, thanks, now I see my mistake. It's not the number 1 but the letter
L. They list Bicycle Planet as our place but that one shut down. However ...

https://www.amazon.com/Chain-L-High-Mileage-Bicycle-Chain-Lube/dp/B008TXAT4C

So I just ordered it. I shall report how it holds up on the trails.
Thanks, guys!

[Joerg]

On 2016-09-24 07:45, David Scheidt wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> :On 2016-09-23 20:27, David Scheidt wrote:
> :> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
> :> :Chain lube is probably a contentious topic. On the road bike I am happy
> :> :since a thorough cleaning and application of White Lightning Epic Ride
> :> :easily lasts 200 miles.
> :>
> :> I use chain-l. lasts much longer than that, even in Chicgo winters
> :> (which are harder on the chain and lube than most mud.).
> :>
>
> :Do you have a link to that? Under "Chain-1" I get all sorts of links but
> :not for a lube.
>
> It's an L not a one.
>
> http://chain-l.com/
>

Thanks. Found it on Amazon after Andrew's post. Since their local
distributor place has shut down I just ordered it there (actually comes
from a bike shop in Colorado).

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

JB blessed with rain clearing grit loam seabed limestone scum ..off Port's roads

a shoeing for this Chain L biz

J's only solution are guards .....and tho suggested several times you will find there are no guards on J's bikes. Or the guards tear off with forceful riding.
RBT turns into RBJ

I tried White Lightining ten years ago...maybe improved. What happened was a mushrooming on the CR's after a trip down the block. On road going CRs ....I guess that means on sharp MTB teeth yes WL sheds and dirt with it.

I dunno MTB do we get shed dirt n no lube or shed dirt n lube ?

Pedro's works with the CRC additive but I doahn ride in mud only forest roads.

[Joerg]

I ordered it a few hours ago.

> J's only solution are guards .....and tho suggested several times you
> will find there are no guards on J's bikes. Or the guards tear off
> with forceful riding. RBT turns into RBJ
>

How do you figure guards would be mounted on a FS-MTB with front
derailer and looong rear derailer?

[...]

[sms]

On 9/23/2016 1:03 PM, jbeattie wrote:

> In the alternative, I skip all cleaning, squirt on some motorcycle chain lube -- or whatever lubricant is sitting next to the garage door -- and then go for a ride.

I like wiping the outside of the chain clean with a solvent soaked rag
(kerosene, mineral spirits, etc.) and then using motorcycle chain lube,
then wiping off excess so it doesn't get on my leg or pants.

Trying to put oil on each link with a Q-tip is kind of ridiculous--it
the oil is thick enough to be useful then it's unlikely that it ends up
inside the chain, and if it's thin enough to get inside the chain then
it won't stay there. That's the whole idea behind chain lube, it goes on
thin then the carrier evaporates, leaving a thicker, but still mobile,
lubricant inside. It does what it was designed to do--lubricate chains,
and it's not expensive.

The religious ceremonies some people go through with their chains, with
torches, hot plates, double boilers, and solvents, probably qualify them
as a tax-exempt church; "The first church of hot paraffin and oil."

[jbeattie]

Nashbar had them two for $8 a few years ago, and I got some. It's long gone, but it worked well. It didn't stay on the chain long riding in the rain. Locals like the Dumond Tech and Boeshield products for wet weather. https://www.universalcycles.com/search.php?q=chain+lubricants

All the Voodoo oil is over my budget.

> > Otherwise, its little bottles of TriFlow that they were practically
> > giving away at Western Bikeworks -- or motorcycle chain lube, or some
> > generic PTFEE-containing spray. I have way too much to do around the
> > house this time of year to be spending hours cleaning and lubing
> > chains.
>
>
> It doesn't take hours. I usually do it when starting the barbecue. Often
> I grill or bake over wood fire and out here one must watch such a fire.
> Takes about 20 minutes to die down to coals and I can do one bike chain
> during that time, always keeping an eye on the fire. Another option
> would be during the wort boil (beer brewing) but the portable burner for
> outside is too weak.
>
>
> > ... And again, cleaning occurs on the wash stand -- or naturally
> > on the way to work if I stick to the roads, and its pre-leaf fall.
> > http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/leaves-path1.jpg
> > Gotta love bike lanes in the fall.
>
>
> My winter routes look more like this on in Colorado:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhnS8-3QwG4

That looks pretty firm -- I was expecting it to be more muddy.

My actual commute last year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-gcO5gCJCQ -- except that where the car tuns, I kept going straight, through an underpass that became a lake -- like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oylLOi0JUxI

Water was way over my BB, and there were cars, and it was dark, and there were mountain lions and water moccasins -- and dead bodies floating by.

>
> Some folks can't hack it:
>
> https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.downloaddreams.com%2Fpics%2Fgirls_in_mud%2Fmuddy_mountainbike_tour_011.jpg&sp=1801908fa16d9bdc12a237533ab67f74

What are those on her chest -- personal flotation devices?

-- Jay Beattie

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

post photo link into Google Photos

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

? Who knows ? I see Brad Pitt tops D Rump in GooNews 2nite...I know not Pitt nor Jolie who in Goo has serious mammary problems.

SMS should try cooking a clean chain in Valvo Synth or FL Epic .....25-35% less friction. With care as per lab instructions.

the friction wear grit is under the links. wiping isn't cleaning tho it gets you by 3-4x before cleaning. SMS has limestone slime ? that should rinse out ...try some CRC electronics cleaner with acetic on it. Vinegar ?

You daze all there......Boesheild ? morons using BS in rain are running on water not BS....

I swear all those prodcuts are using friction modifier plus ...poss developing a deodorizing simmer.

Itsnot the price really its the affrontree of price/quantity. 4oz ....

is how I tried the Valvo. 'Like' here's a QT for $15

Pedro's at $20/pt is reasonable using the cheaper CRC to loosen n fortify till the chain needs cleaning. When the cyclist on the street looks at that while I tellum costs his cranial nerves do a stutter step

the visual is overwhelming. None of that existed 15 years ago .... nor cheap kayaks.

[Frank Krygowski]

I began using paraffin wax + oil on my chain after seeing good,
real-world data showing that it resulted in far less chain wear than any
alternative. I already knew it resulted in the cleanest chain, cleanest
bike and cleanest legs and clothing. Subsequent data has shown that a
paraffin based lube also gives highest efficiency.
http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/news/article/friction-facts-publishes-ultrafast-chain-lube-formula-36424/

To put this in context with SMS's final paragraph: My "religion" is
data. His religion is based on ignoring data and pretending he's the
"world's greatest expert."

If you want to use your own favorite chain lube, that's perfectly fine.
But if you're going to demean another's choice, at least refer to facts
and measurements; don't ignore them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[John B.]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 07:10:40 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>

Or you might carry a few rubber gloves. Ordinary "examination gloves"
are pretty cheap and usually strong enough to reinstall a chain if
necessary, and they take a very small amount of room to carry three or
four.

But for cleaning grease off the hands first rub the hands clean with a
rag (or by rubbing them on your pant legs) and then washing them with
soap and water. At least it has worked for me for a lot of years.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:39:46 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Gee, $95 a quart? Must be pretty good stuff :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 16:32:49 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

But the hot wax method is the most efficient method of lubricating a
chain. If, of course, you are looking for the lowest friction losses.
--
cheers,

John B.

[sms]

On 9/24/2016 5:35 PM, jbeattie wrote:

> Nashbar had them two for $8 a few years ago, and I got some. It's long gone, but it worked well. It didn't stay on the chain long riding in the rain. Locals like the Dumond Tech and Boeshield products for wet weather. https://www.universalcycles.com/search.php?q=chain+lubricants

Is Dumonde still producing its coffee-scented chain lube?
<http://www.jensonusa.com/Dumonde-Tech-Cafe-Chain-Lube>

Supposedly the caffeine makes you go much faster.

[John B.]

I suggest that Smurf is an exact fit to the Supreme Court's definition
of "utterly without redeeming social importance" and thus has proved
himself worthy to be ignored :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 07:16:45 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

see: http://www.loobman.co.uk/
It sounds like just what you are asking for.
--
cheers,

John B.

[John B.]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 07:16:45 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

Or maybe
http://www.osco-chainoiler.com/en/lubrication-in-practice.html
--
cheers,

John B.

[Andrew Chaplin]

John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in
news:8qgeubplj39f1l82t...@4ax.com:

> But for cleaning grease off the hands first rub the hands clean with a
> rag (or by rubbing them on your pant legs) and then washing them with
> soap and water. At least it has worked for me for a lot of years.

If you have access to table sugar, soap your hands and then work the sugar
into the soapy coating, then rinse it off. This method works best with
liquid soap; with cake soap, you should minimise the water you use to build
the lather so that the sugar doesn't dissolve too quickly. I think there is
a chemical explanation for its effectiveness, but also mechanical one, as
the grains of sugar act like pumice.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Joerg]

On 2016-09-25 06:44, Andrew Chaplin wrote:
> John B. <slocom...@gmail.xyz> wrote in
> news:8qgeubplj39f1l82t...@4ax.com:
>
>> But for cleaning grease off the hands first rub the hands clean with a
>> rag (or by rubbing them on your pant legs) and then washing them with
>> soap and water. At least it has worked for me for a lot of years.
>

That's what I always do because there are eitehr rags or paper towels in
the tool pannier. Didn't come off. Gloves aren't going to work for a
serious chain suck, they'd tear.

> If you have access to table sugar, soap your hands and then work the sugar
> into the soapy coating, then rinse it off. This method works best with
> liquid soap; with cake soap, you should minimise the water you use to build
> the lather so that the sugar doesn't dissolve too quickly. I think there is
> a chemical explanation for its effectiveness, but also mechanical one, as
> the grains of sugar act like pumice.
>

Minor problem: Nearly all places we visit are brewpubs. They don't have
sugar. If someone would come in there and order a coffee, there's be a
sudden silence and everyone would gaze at that person :-)

[Joerg]

With the rack of you can see the derailer:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy.JPG

[Joerg]

Yes, like that. But it is a bit big. When I need a new chain saw I'll
remove the oiler from that. Because they don't last long anyhow. The one
on the current saw failed within weeks so I can't use that one.

[Joerg]

Reviews on Amazon were quite positive. If this stuff really last 2x or
longer on the MTB it'll barely cost more than Epic Ride which runs $8-9
for 8oz. Lube is not a major cost on my bikes. Tires and other hardware are.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

discussing chain lubes should follow thru categories or from category type to a different type .....

Pedro's plus CRC is wax/oil or wax/oil plus oil (Si)

add heat

...................

OIL ORGANIC

.................

SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS

..................

CUSTOM SYNTHETIC LUBRICANTS

......................

BRAKE FLUID

................

ORGANIC FOOD GREASES

....................

WATER

..............

??????

https://www.google.com/#q=sugar+scrub+for+oily+skin

sugar is soluble in water see sugar chemical structure, contains solvents..but active in oil ?

the compound is masonry sand plus detergent if your desperate or hand soap butbubtut Wal carries a box of Performance gloves n THIS IS THE ANSWER.

[Robert Latest]

Joerg wrote:
> The road chain bike is fairly clean
> after lots of bike path riding but grimy soot-black after riding lots of
> road. Gives me goose bumps thinking that I also breath whatever causes
> this.

Huh? IMO the black stuff is metal powder created by chain wear. If it were
something from the air it would stick to the outside of the chain and would
easily be wiped off. I find that if I just wipe down the chain after oiling
it, black gunk oozes out from inside the rollers and completely covers the
chain after 10-20 km. Doesn't matter technically but bothers me
aesthetically.

> I found the disposable interdental brushes to work great for
> cleaning. First used for my teeth, rinsed, dried, they go into a coin
> envelope and that is used up in the garage. So they all work two jobs.

I use pipe cleaners for that. Just pull them all the way through the links,
giving me a lot more brush action per second than going back and forth with a
tiny brush that doesn't even fill the whole link.

> Lubing takes 10mins because I carefully dab it onto each link via Q-tip.

I always over-oil with cheap, general-purpose oil, turn the cranks a few
times, wipe off excess oil.

robert

[Robert Latest]

Joerg wrote:
> Long story short a mere 35 miles
> after a fresh lube the chain started making horrid squeaking noises once
> the rain had stopped. Seemingly the lube had been flushed out. I had no
> choice but to continue another 10mi in order to get home. Mostly uphill
> and the sound was awful.

Been there, done that (on a 100km road bike trip), but there is a choice: I
shared my last bottle of water with the chain, just spraying it every now
and then while riding, that helped to keep the noise down. It was a hot day,
but I rather endured thirst than the squeak.

robert

[Robert Latest]

Joerg wrote:
> The chain is a KMC X93 10-speed. I need a lube that lasts through a 50mi
> dirt trail ride regardless of weather conditions.

Can't you carry a little bottle with you to re-lube when the chain starts
acting up?

robert

[jbeattie]

Emergency Chain Lube! http://www.bta-mall.com/product_detail.php?id=SKUB013NB6M72
A product is born. Or, a service -- emergency chain lube road service. Call it lUber. Joerg! Another business opportunity! You'll be a hundred-aire.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Frank Krygowski]

Although I hot-wax my chains, I do have a tiny eyedrop bottle in each
bike's bag, filled with light oil. On some tours, I've had to use it on
chains.

--
- Frank Krygowski

[Joy Beeson]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2016 13:44:53 -0000 (UTC), Andrew Chaplin
<ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote:

> If you have access to table sugar, soap your hands and then work the sugar
> into the soapy coating, then rinse it off. This method works best with
> liquid soap; with cake soap, you should minimise the water you use to build
> the lather so that the sugar doesn't dissolve too quickly. I think there is
> a chemical explanation for its effectiveness, but also mechanical one, as
> the grains of sugar act like pumice.

I rub grease into my hands and then wipe them with a paper towel. I
used to carry olive oil in a one-ounce bottle -- until the cap leaked
oil all over everything in my emergency kit. Now I carry a lip-salve
box of Eucerine. Crisco would do nicely, since it won't spill or
spoil, and there are pill boxes that would contain it.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

[Joerg]

On 2016-09-25 12:03, Robert Latest wrote:
> Joerg wrote:
>> The road chain bike is fairly clean
>> after lots of bike path riding but grimy soot-black after riding lots of
>> road. Gives me goose bumps thinking that I also breath whatever causes
>> this.
>
> Huh? IMO the black stuff is metal powder created by chain wear. If it were
> something from the air it would stick to the outside of the chain and would
> easily be wiped off. I find that if I just wipe down the chain after oiling
> it, black gunk oozes out from inside the rollers and completely covers the
> chain after 10-20 km. Doesn't matter technically but bothers me
> aesthetically.
>

This only happens if I have ridden lots of roads during that interval.
County roads with lots of motor vehicle traffic. When the interval
contained mostly bike paths the chain stays quite shiny, just begins to
squeal as usual when I let it go past 200 miles. Or after it rained and
then stopped before I got home.

>> I found the disposable interdental brushes to work great for
>> cleaning. First used for my teeth, rinsed, dried, they go into a coin
>> envelope and that is used up in the garage. So they all work two jobs.
>
> I use pipe cleaners for that. Just pull them all the way through the links,
> giving me a lot more brush action per second than going back and forth with a
> tiny brush that doesn't even fill the whole link.
>

I used to do that as well but in North America not many people smoke
anymore so pipe cleaners aren't easy to procure. The interdental brushes
are practical. I use one per day anyhow after brushing so that results
in 365 such little brushes being available er year. More than needed for
chain cleaning. Best of all that costs me nothing extra, pipe cleaners
would since I don't smoke.

When I was young I smoked a pipe for a short time, even _on_ my road
bike. But within the year I discovered that it gets me hooked on tobacco
so I quit.

>> Lubing takes 10mins because I carefully dab it onto each link via Q-tip.
>
> I always over-oil with cheap, general-purpose oil, turn the cranks a few
> times, wipe off excess oil.
>

I used to do that as well but not anymore. I found that this method
results in an incredible accumulation of gunk when using offroad trails
and dirt roads. Not a problem in Europe but out here I have to use those.

[Joerg]

I could. But I already carry so much stuff that I don't want to add any
more. Also, if that leaks you have a real mess.

[Joerg]

Too late. Seems someone already pciked up that market.

No kidding, in Germany they have a roadside assistance program for
cyclists in some areas, similar to what AAA does for motorists. But I
doubt they'd come out for a chain lube job.

[Sir Ridesalot]

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 10:37:13 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

> I used to do that as well but in North America not many people smoke

> anymore so pipe cleaners aren't easy to procure. Snipped Best of all that costs me nothing extra, pipe cleaners

> would since I don't smoke.

Snipped
> Regards, Joerg
>
> http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Nonsense about the pipe cleaners. Really long pipe cleaners can be bought at just about any dollar type discount store.

I don't know what's with you Joerg that you have such problems that no one else has. I ride my bicycle on paved roads, stone dust covered trails, through deep mud, through water often over the hubs and bottom bracket and do normal chain lubing and I never have a squeaky chain.

I do have a small bottle that use to contain VCR head cleaning solution but now has oil in it that I use if my chain gets too dry. However that oil gets very little use.

I'm amazed that you always have these problems that no one else seems to have.

Cheers

[jbeattie]

Oregon/Idaho AAA has been providing roadside assistance to bikes as part of the basic plan since 2009 -- but it is really just a taxi service. They don't fix flats or oil chains -- and why should they? Even for cars, nobody is plugging flats. They're just putting on the spare, and you drive to the nearest Les Schwab.

-- Jay Beattie.

[jbeattie]

I'm still trying to get past the part about cleaning each link with a tiny inter-dental brush. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/j9l5CaXvsG0/maxresdefault.jpg I floss my chain.

-- Jay Beattie.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Joerg]

On 2016-09-26 09:27, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 7:41:51 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-09-25 15:58, jbeattie wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 12:16:39 PM UTC-7, Robert
>>> Latest wrote:
>>>> Joerg wrote:
>>>>> The chain is a KMC X93 10-speed. I need a lube that lasts
>>>>> through a 50mi dirt trail ride regardless of weather
>>>>> conditions.
>>>>
>>>> Can't you carry a little bottle with you to re-lube when the
>>>> chain starts acting up?
>>>
>>> Emergency Chain Lube!
>>> http://www.bta-mall.com/product_detail.php?id=SKUB013NB6M72 A
>>> product is born. Or, a service -- emergency chain lube road
>>> service. Call it lUber. Joerg! Another business opportunity!
>>> You'll be a hundred-aire.
>>>
>>
>> Too late. Seems someone already pciked up that market.
>>
>> No kidding, in Germany they have a roadside assistance program for
>> cyclists in some areas, similar to what AAA does for motorists. But
>> I doubt they'd come out for a chain lube job.
>
> Oregon/Idaho AAA has been providing roadside assistance to bikes as
> part of the basic plan since 2009 -- but it is really just a taxi
> service.

What, they don't unload the tanks and braze the frame back together
after a nasty crash?


> ... They don't fix flats or oil chains -- and why should they?

> Even for cars, nobody is plugging flats. They're just putting on the
> spare, and you drive to the nearest Les Schwab.
>

I can do that myself. Once on a German autobahn I heard the telltale
WOOOO and pulled into a rest area. My trusty old Citroen 2CV letting me
down? Mon Dieu! I then took the front left bearing apart and lined all
the individual balls up on the curb, like soldiers. A service truck from
ADAC (like AAA here) pulled up. The driver left in disbelief when he saw
what I was doing.

Polished everything with a rag, greased it all up, reassembled it, went
back on the autobahn and that bearing never made noises again.

I eventually became member of that auto club but only to get the
discounted maps as well as the cheap overseas rental car deals and
insurance. The latter alone paid for the membership.

On yesterday's ride my Shimano 600EX BB started going clicka-di-click.
Hurumph! Well, at least no screeching. Yet. I dread taking all that
apart. New tapered-square ones often have a plastic left cup which does
not instill confidence. In our hills I'll probably mash that to death in
no time.

[Joerg]

On 2016-09-26 09:32, jbeattie wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 7:51:44 AM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot
> wrote:
>> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 10:37:13 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
>> Snipped
>>> I used to do that as well but in North America not many people
>>> smoke anymore so pipe cleaners aren't easy to procure. Snipped
>>> Best of all that costs me nothing extra, pipe cleaners would
>>> since I don't smoke.
>> Snipped
>>> Regards, Joerg
>>>
>>> http://www.analogconsultants.com/
>>
>> Nonsense about the pipe cleaners. Really long pipe cleaners can be
>> bought at just about any dollar type discount store.
>>

Not at ours. I've tried, wanted them for machine cleaning.

>> I don't know what's with you Joerg that you have such problems that
>> no one else has. I ride my bicycle on paved roads, stone dust
>> covered trails, through deep mud, through water often over the hubs
>> and bottom bracket and do normal chain lubing and I never have a
>> squeaky chain.
>>
>> I do have a small bottle that use to contain VCR head cleaning
>> solution but now has oil in it that I use if my chain gets too dry.
>> However that oil gets very little use.
>>
>> I'm amazed that you always have these problems that no one else
>> seems to have.

Lots of people have that problem and simply ignore it. Often I hear
noise, look down, could it be my chain again? Can't be. Then I look
around and sure enough there is another cyclist behind me. Occasionally
their chain squeal is so bad that I can even hear it with my MP3 player
running.

One of them whom I helped fix something on his bike had a very sad
looking and rather dry chain stretched well north of 1%. No wonder. Of
course by then his cassette was shot as well. $70-80 of unnecessary damage.

>
> I'm still trying to get past the part about cleaning each link with a
> tiny inter-dental brush.

It woiks, and expediently! That's all that counts for me.

> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/j9l5CaXvsG0/maxresdefault.jpg I floss my
> chain.
>

Check with your dentist. The chain may need a deep cleaning once in a while.

[sms]

Better World offers bicycle service, but I tried it for a year instead
of AAA and it was not good on the automobile side.
<http://www.betterworldclub.com/roadside-assistance/bicycle-roadside-assistance/>

[Joerg]

Over several decades of motoring I have not once had to use the services
of an auto club (even though I was a member) or any other roadside
assistance.

On my bicycles with a lesser number of total lifetime miles, however,
that was a different story. Snapped chains, bunged freehubs/wheels, a
"freewheeling" coaster brake hub that wasn't ever supposed to freewheel,
several tires blown so thoroughly that fixing was completely out,
hitting the side of a VW Fox (bike pretzeled, VW door wouldn't open
anymore), snapping of several rear spokes in rapid succession (thou
shalt not transport more than 50lbs, or so), a bent fork after electing
to go straight in a sharp curve when the front brake cable snapped,
numerous taco'd front wheels, and so on. I could have used roadside
assistance a lot with my bikes when things simply weren't fixable by the
rider.

The usual solution was to hoof it home, sometimes having to leave the
bike behind until I could come back with a car to retrieve it.

[Doug Landau]

> > Chain cleaning takes at least 20mins each bike. The MTB chain has caked
> > brown dirt which comes off easy. The road chain bike is fairly clean

> > after lots of bike path riding but grimy soot-black after riding lots of
> > road. Gives me goose bumps thinking that I also breath whatever causes

> > this. I found the disposable interdental brushes to work great for

> > cleaning. First used for my teeth, rinsed, dried, they go into a coin
> > envelope and that is used up in the garage. So they all work two jobs.

Whoa WHoa WHOA!!! What the hell is the significance of the coin envelope?!?

dkl

[Frank Krygowski]

And I'm amazed that the simple solutions offered by others never meet Joerg's
standards. The latest example is "I don't want to carry a tiny bottle of oil
because I already carry so much stuff." This from the guy who says weight
is no concern, and who brags about lugging many pounds of beer all over
the place.

When Joerg has a problem that nobody else has, nothing will ever fix it.

- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

Roadside assistance would have been a ride home -- or a ride somewhere (depending on the service, it may be the tow office). Lyft or Uber would get you the same service -- or call your wife, child, friend, etc.

Thinking back on my bicycle-parts failures (broken cranks, pedals, chains, bars, seatposts, etc.), roadside assistance would have been useless -- unless it included new parts.

One exception: my crank came loose (square drive, back in the day) riding out the Gorge, and I found a maintenance guy at Multnomah Falls with a 15mm socket wrench. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Multnomah_Falls_Lodge_-_Oregon.jpg Door to the far right is a maintenance shop. Still faster than roadside assistance, which would have taken a while.


I broke a seatpost clamp bolt going over Carson Pass and found some guy at Caples Lake (at the store/marina) who gave me a bolt from his outboard motor repair kit.

I've broken spokes, but I just re-true the wheel and do a more comprehensive fix at home -- except on tour, and then I bring spares.

I broke a chain on the Olympic Peninsula and got a ride (hitchhiked) to a Coast to Coast store back in the one-size fits all chain days. I broke a pedal on the same ride and woke-up the owner of a bike shop at about 7:00 on a Sunday morning -- in Coos Bay. I was on a tour from SF to Canada. Note to shop owners -- don't live over your shop.

I broke a Look pedal while riding up in the hills and mostly coasted home. I've broken a half-dozen cranks and just rode home on one leg, which is surprisingly hard. I broke one side of my bars, so I got to work holding the other side and then bought some replacements at lunch over at the Bike Gallery.

Speaking of, I was riding through town to start a longer ride north, and I broke a shift cable -- right in front of the Bike Gallery. In and out. Ten minute fix. If I'm riding in city limits, there is a bike shop every ten blocks -- well, not quite, but there are a lot of them. City limits includes this sort of stuff -- on a road bike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbWCFwIxgnw If you mowed-down the trees, you'd be looking at the downtown skyline.

I called my wife once to come and get me -- another broken chain, right at the snap link. I would have scootered home, but I was feeling lazy.

As for bike or wheel destroying crashes, I get a ride from my wife or an ambulance.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Doug Landau]

> But not for dirt bikers. However, they also have o-ringed chains,
> something us lowly mountain bikers will never be afforded.

That's what people used to say about suspension

[Frank Krygowski]

I'm wondering if suspension is becoming unfashionable. I met the president of
a mountain bike club in our forest preserve, to consult with him about some
volunteer work. He let me try his brand new fat bike. Solid front and rear.

- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

My son has sold a surprising number of double suspended fat bikes. That's like fat-on-fat. He tells me the customers are just looking for a comfortable bike and are not mondo mud or snow riders.

Suspension has crept into road bikes -- Domanes, Roubaix (new headshock model), Cannondale's gravel bike. http://www.cxmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/047_result-750x1128.jpg

People just can't seem to be comfortable enough. Now if I could just find a good chain with O-rings! Then I wouldn't have to spend so much time flossing my chain every night.

-- Jay Beattie.

[Doug Landau]

On Sunday, September 25, 2016 at 12:16:39 PM UTC-7, Robert Latest wrote:

WD-40 used to hand out tiny single-use plastic bubbles - the size of a small grape, with a pointy end, made of very stiff plastic. I grabbed a handful at a District 36 Enduro and got a lifetime supply.

I disagree with those who use motorcycle chain lube. It is too thick for the application.

[Doug Landau]

> I reuse the thinner/cleaner ...deodorized mimeral spirits so grit accumulates at bottom.
>
> finding that a second shake n rinse..chain in bottle with clear poured off thinner from the first shaking ....settles abt 1-2 grams of silica sand grains.
>
> for a 3rd rinse there will be a small grey deposit of fine debris but WTH ? 2 is good.

1 is good. 2 are not required. With thinner that is. First use water. Thinner/cleaner is only required for the last rinse. But with this method many rinses are required with water before the final with cleaner.

[Barry Beams]

Another weekof Interbike showed that Mobil 1 or Redline 5w20 or differential oil is about as low friction can be obtained easily. I picked up samples of the new White Lightning lube and a few others. Still really liking the Purple Extreme I got samples of last year. Its not quite as clean as White Lightning but doesn't make the black scummy buildup White Lightning does over a lot of miles. Going to try a mix of the two.
Bottom line is that the lowest friction lubes don't last as long, the cleaner longer lasting lubes will keep the chain and gears lasting longer, and unless you're racing at track worlds, the minute difference in power transmission makes no difference to a recreational street or MTB rider.

[Joerg]

And it took centuries for the bike industry to figure this out. Even
chuck wagons in the days of the pilgrims had suspension.

While innovation is slow in the world of cycling I have to hand it to
them though that the suspension on many MTB is better than on SUVs. I
did some direct comparison, same road, same speed, and the MTB won
hands-down. I can dial in the softness and even the rebound, while
riding. The only car I ever drove where you can do that was an expensive
model from Citroen.

[Doug Landau]

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 5:03:46 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-09-26 13:52, Doug Landau wrote:
> >
> >> But not for dirt bikers. However, they also have o-ringed chains,
> >> something us lowly mountain bikers will never be afforded.
> >
> > That's what people used to say about suspension
> >
>
> And it took centuries for the bike industry to figure this out.

No. It took only a few years. Suspensions on bikes existed forever it's people that didn't figure out how to use them.

>Even chuck wagons in the days of the pilgrims had suspension.

Wrong. The pioneer wagons in this country did NOT (as in "did NOT") have suspensions. Read "The California Trail" by Stewart, or "1846: The Year of Decision" by DeVoto.

[James]

On 24/09/16 07:07, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 9/23/2016 3:07 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-09-23 11:54, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 9/23/2016 1:42 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>>> On 2016-09-22 18:35, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2016 16:59:11 -0700, Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Chain lube is probably a contentious topic. On the road bike I am
>>>>>> happy
>>>>>> since a thorough cleaning and application of White Lightning Epic
>>>>>> Ride
>>>>>> easily lasts 200 miles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mountain bike, very different story. On dry dusty rides I can get 50
>>>>>> miles out of an Epic Ride lube without the chain making nasty noises.
>>>>>> But when the ride is dry and then wet all bets are off. Yesterday it
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> the usual dusty ride at first but a slight yet persistent drizzle
>>>>>> started about 10 miles into the ride. Long story short a mere 35
>>>>>> miles
>>>>>> after a fresh lube the chain started making horrid squeaking noises
>>>>>> once
>>>>>> the rain had stopped. Seemingly the lube had been flushed out. I
>>>>>> had no
>>>>>> choice but to continue another 10mi in order to get home. Mostly
>>>>>> uphill
>>>>>> and the sound was awful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most advice sites split between wet and dry situations but that just
>>>>>> does not cut it outside summer season:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://oldglorymtb.com/best-mountain-bike-chain-lube-for-wet-or-dry-conditions/

>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The chain is a KMC X93 10-speed. I need a lube that lasts through a
>>>>>> 50mi
>>>>>> dirt trail ride regardless of weather conditions.
>>>>>>

>>>>>> Any words of wisdom from other all-weather MTB riders?
>>>>>
>>>>> Try the paraffin lube system that both James and Frank use,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If that means boiling the chain in a paraffin pot, storing chains in
>>>> there and mount them in a rotating pattern as a high-mileage ciclyst
>>>> friend does, I don't really want to go to that much effort.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In my case, it doesn't mean that. It means waxing the chain while it's
>>> on the bike, using a low-flame propane torch to heat about 10 links at a
>>> time. It takes less than five minutes per bike.
>>>
>>> I'd give details yet again, but it probably wouldn't work for you.
>>>
>>
>> I have a propane torch and also a 240V industrial (electrical) hot air
>> gun used for shrink tubing. Why wouldn't it work for me? Because of the
>> grit and dust from trails?
>
> I was basing it on your long track record of saying that nothing works
> for you, except the things you come up with on your own.
>

I don't bother making suggestions where Joerg is concerned any longer.

>> Chain cleaning takes at least 20mins each bike. The MTB chain has caked
>> brown dirt which comes off easy. The road chain bike is fairly clean
>> after lots of bike path riding but grimy soot-black after riding lots of
>> road. Gives me goose bumps thinking that I also breath whatever causes
>> this. I found the disposable interdental brushes to work great for
>> cleaning. First used for my teeth, rinsed, dried, they go into a coin
>> envelope and that is used up in the garage. So they all work two jobs.
>>

>> Lubing takes 10mins because I carefully dab it onto each link via Q-tip.
>

> Yow.
>
> There was a time I carefully applied oil to each pin, after first
> washing the chain down with either a solvent bath or WD-40 on the bike.
> Then I'd have to wash the bike because of the accumulation of black gunk
> on cogs, chainrings, spokes, chainstay, etc. But I stopped being that
> fussy decades ago.
>
> The thing about paraffin wax (with a bit of oil blended in) is that it
> picks up almost no road grit in the first place. The only chain
> cleaning I do is back-pedaling the chain through a wad of paper towels
> after the wax has been applied. This lube has been shown to give the
> longest chain life by far. And supposedly, if you use teflon powder in
> place of oil in the mix, it's the most efficient i.e. lowest friction loss.
>

Even with a healthy dose of oil in my wax, after a while it sounds a bit
dry. I find a little squirt of WD40 then has the chain silent for many
hundreds of kms further. I think it acts as a mild solvent for the wax,
and allows the oil to move about a bit inside the chain. The good thing
is, because by the time I give the chain a squirt, all the wax has
fallen from the outside of the chain, so the chain stays quite clean on
the outside.


> But YMMV usually varies way, way more than anyone else's. So it
> probably wouldn't work for you.
>


Agree.

--
JS

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

eees organized ... I cut note cards from cereal boxes et al .......

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

all the dough you make n lookit the cheap crap you ride incroyable

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

> 1 is good. 2 are not required. With thinner that is. First use water. Thinner/cleaner is only required for the last rinse. But with this method many rinses are required with water before the final with cleaner.\\


incomplete analysis...the prob is 2nd rinse/shake takes out the real deal energy robbing friction producing grit tween plates n rollers ....stretching the point one can write in comparing,all the other grit has no significance relative to performance.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 5:48:11 PM UTC-6, Barry Beams wrote:
> Another weekof Interbike showed that Mobil 1 or Redline 5w20 or differential oil is about as low friction can be obtained easily. I picked up samples of the new White Lightning lube and a few others. Still really liking the Purple Extreme I got samples of last year. Its not quite as clean as White Lightning but doesn't make the black scummy buildup White Lightning does over a lot of miles. Going to try a mix of the two.
> Bottom line is that the lowest friction lubes don't last as long, the cleaner longer lasting lubes will keep the chain and gears lasting longer, and unless you're racing at track worlds, the minute difference in power transmission makes no difference to a recreational street or MTB rider.

try Valvo Synth trans with drops of Ford Friction Modifier from Amazon

[Joerg]

On 2016-09-26 18:13, Doug Landau wrote:
> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 5:03:46 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2016-09-26 13:52, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>
>>>> But not for dirt bikers. However, they also have o-ringed
>>>> chains, something us lowly mountain bikers will never be
>>>> afforded.
>>>
>>> That's what people used to say about suspension
>>>
>>
>> And it took centuries for the bike industry to figure this out.
> No. It took only a few years. Suspensions on bikes existed forever
> it's people that didn't figure out how to use them.
>

I ride bikes sind the 60's. The number of suspension bikes offered in
major stores and catalogs until the 90's was ... zero.

>> Even chuck wagons in the days of the pilgrims had suspension.
> Wrong. The pioneer wagons in this country did NOT (as in "did NOT")
> have suspensions. Read "The California Trail" by Stewart, or "1846:
> The Year of Decision" by DeVoto.
>

Better ones did. Even the luxury vehicle of Catherine the Great had
suspension:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Buberel_Coronation_coach_Catherine_the_Great.jpg

[Joerg]

A service truck without parts is useless. Then it's only a hauling
service. For bicycles you would expect, as a minimum, chains, tubes,
tires, cables and cranks.

> One exception: my crank came loose (square drive, back in the day)
> riding out the Gorge, and I found a maintenance guy at Multnomah
> Falls with a 15mm socket wrench.
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Multnomah_Falls_Lodge_-_Oregon.jpg
> Door to the far right is a maintenance shop. Still faster than
> roadside assistance, which would have taken a while.
>

Nice! Then, into the restaurant for a Flat Iron Steak platter and a
delicious brewsky.

>
> I broke a seatpost clamp bolt going over Carson Pass and found some
> guy at Caples Lake (at the store/marina) who gave me a bolt from his
> outboard motor repair kit.
>
> I've broken spokes, but I just re-true the wheel and do a more
> comprehensive fix at home -- except on tour, and then I bring
> spares.
>

I did that as well for a while but then opted for the thickest spokes I
could get. Of those, only one has broken recently when accelerating in a
left turn lane uphill ... *POCK* ... so now I don't accelerate that hard
anymore.

> I broke a chain on the Olympic Peninsula and got a ride (hitchhiked)
> to a Coast to Coast store back in the one-size fits all chain days.
> I broke a pedal on the same ride and woke-up the owner of a bike shop
> at about 7:00 on a Sunday morning -- in Coos Bay. I was on a tour
> from SF to Canada. Note to shop owners -- don't live over your shop.
>

I can picture that. Old guy shuffling down the stairs in his pajamas :-)

> I broke a Look pedal while riding up in the hills and mostly coasted
> home. I've broken a half-dozen cranks and just rode home on one leg,
> which is surprisingly hard. I broke one side of my bars, so I got to
> work holding the other side and then bought some replacements at
> lunch over at the Bike Gallery.
>
> Speaking of, I was riding through town to start a longer ride north,
> and I broke a shift cable -- right in front of the Bike Gallery. In
> and out. Ten minute fix. If I'm riding in city limits, there is a
> bike shop every ten blocks -- well, not quite, but there are a lot of
> them. City limits includes this sort of stuff -- on a road bike.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbWCFwIxgnw If you mowed-down the
> trees, you'd be looking at the downtown skyline.
>
> I called my wife once to come and get me -- another broken chain,
> right at the snap link. I would have scootered home, but I was
> feeling lazy.
>

People here are saying I am murdering my bike parts but you see to be
worse, considering that it isn't even mountain biking. It also shows
that bike parts are inferior to automotive. If a car would have broken
down that often you'd probably make sure it gets onto the lemon list.

> As for bike or wheel destroying crashes, I get a ride from my wife or
> an ambulance.
>

That would be a slight problem on many of my routes as cars cannot get
there. A helicopter might, sometimes, but that gets expensive.

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

goo.gl/SH1NyG

Stu printed an overview poss available.

[Frank Krygowski]

On 9/27/2016 10:52 AM, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-09-26 18:13, Doug Landau wrote:
>> On Monday, September 26, 2016 at 5:03:46 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
>>> On 2016-09-26 13:52, Doug Landau wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But not for dirt bikers. However, they also have o-ringed
>>>>> chains, something us lowly mountain bikers will never be
>>>>> afforded.
>>>>
>>>> That's what people used to say about suspension
>>>>
>>>
>>> And it took centuries for the bike industry to figure this out.
>> No. It took only a few years. Suspensions on bikes existed forever
>> it's people that didn't figure out how to use them.
>>
>
> I ride bikes sind the 60's. The number of suspension bikes offered in
> major stores and catalogs until the 90's was ... zero.

Unless you mean the 1760s or 1860s, your "60's" [sic] weren't centuries ago.

But at least some bikes had suspension systems long, long ago.
http://copakeauction.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/1890-Columbia-Camelback-hard-tire-safety-bicycle.jpg

When pneumatic tires came into being, people quickly decided that the
tires provided all the suspension they needed.

When (in the 1980s or so) it became popular to ride bikes over rocky
paths in the woods and deserts, people started fussing with suspensions
again. But it was hardly a new idea. And few knowledgeable cyclists
wanted anything like that on a road bike.

Even on mountain bikes, it was hardly a case of "Gee, Joerg alone
realized the tremendous value, if only we'd listened to him, we would
have implemented this simply and immediately." There are good
engineering reasons that bike suspension is more difficult than
motorcycle or other vehicle suspension. And there are still many very
knowledgeable people who don't see the need for road bikes. Some, as I
said, feel the same even for off-road.


--
- Frank Krygowski

[jbeattie]

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 8:52:46 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
> On 2016-09-26 13:41, jbeattie wrote:

<snip>

>
> People here are saying I am murdering my bike parts but you see to be
> worse, considering that it isn't even mountain biking. It also shows
> that bike parts are inferior to automotive. If a car would have broken
> down that often you'd probably make sure it gets onto the lemon list.

The bars were a lemon (OE Cinelli on my CX bike). Campy NR cranks were lemons and had a history of breaking. I broke 4 -- Jobst bought them by the crate and went through them like Kleenex. My two broken Ultegra cranks were abused. The Ofmega was junk, and the Stronglight was just old. The seatpost was an Avocet and known to have weak clamp bolts -- the Weyless, and even the American Classic and Thompson had bolt problems. Those two bolt posts were hard on bolts. I think bolt-technology has improved since then.

I snapped a Look pedal spindle, bent a re-branded Look Dura Ace and broke a Ti spindle on a pair of 1975 ER pedals that I should not have used on a tour. Ti was sketchy in the '70s. One should not have an ultra-light touring bike.

Stuff breaks if you ride it long or hard enough. I just don't expect it to last forever, and I buy stuff with good warranties -- to the extent possible.

>
>
> > As for bike or wheel destroying crashes, I get a ride from my wife or
> > an ambulance.
> >
>
> That would be a slight problem on many of my routes as cars cannot get
> there. A helicopter might, sometimes, but that gets expensive.

At least there is good cell coverage these days, but I certainly wouldn't do an awesome back-country ride without a companion -- and I would not expect rapid removal in the event I got hurt. That's one reason I ski with a buddy when I go into the back-country -- or into the back-country-ish (in-bounds but unpopulated).

-- Jay Beattie.

[AMuzi]

Uh, bicycle suspension is well known on 1968 Raleigh Chopper
and of course Bianchi 1892 military model (featured on the
cover of Bianchi owner's manual 1985~1995) among many, many
others before between and after those models.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

[DATAKOLL MARINE RESEARCH]

goo.gl/NSEGd7