Rambouillet vs. Roadeo?

[lum gim fong]

Please only those who have ridden both:

I own a blue Ram.

Gonna be any noticeable ride diffs if I get a Roadeo?

I do road riding with light loads.

Just wondering if worth getting one or if it is virtually the same experience.

Thanks for the info.

[lum gim fong]

PS- light loads means Bethroud GB25 or Sackville Bartube only. 

[LBleriot]

Depends on the wheels/tires and cockpit IMHO. I run lighter wheels, narrower tires and brifters on my Roadeo so it feels it bit more lively than my Toyo Ram. Blindfolded, I’d be hard pressed to tell the difference.

[Bill Lindsay]

I want to watch that blindfolded test ride where you try to tell the difference.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[Philip Williamson]

A poncho test might be safer. Less entertaining/stressful. 

Philip

Santa Rosa, CA

[a spens]

That was really funny.  Made me snort my tea.

[LBleriot]

My dentist and my ortho love it when I do my blind tests.

On Friday, January 26, 2018 at 8:08:50 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[reynoldslugs]

I have both bikes, and have put them both through thousands of miles and a variety of equipment iterations.  Not much difference between them (see caveat below).

Roadeo:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157625293944684

Rambouillet: 

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/41563482@N06/albums/72157635034191456

love them both, love 'em a lot. To me, the rides are basically the same - comfortable, stable.  I've ridden them both with light loads (maybe 3-4 lbs in the handlebar bag) and had no problems a-tall.  The Roadeo is a bit lighter, feels a bit more sprightly on the steep climbs.  But just a bit.  They are both smooth as butter and very comfortable.

It's a Betty vs Veronica  choice - they are both great.

Caveat: my opinions are untrained, unscientific.  I don't know planing from potholes. I'm big, old, slow, and ride for fun.  Both bikes are fun and ride beautifully. 

I've updated both bikes since I put those albums together, I'll try to post new images soon.

best,

Max Beach

[JohnS]

Max, awesome builds, both bikes look great! Someday I'll have a Roadeo!

Thanks for sharing,

JohnS

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I set up my Ram 650b/front rack/fenders and used it as a long distance Randonneur bike, and it worked great for that function.  I set up the Roadeo with no racks or fenders as a go fast club rider and supported rides.  The ride is very similar, but I did notice that the Roadeo seems slightly more responsive to handlebar input compared to the Ram. 

--The other point I noticed is that the top tube is shorter.  I set up the cockpit similarly with the Ram vs Roadeo (I didn't use a longer stem with a shorter top tube).  With the slightly shorter top tube, it makes the drops more comfortable on the Roadeo because the bars are closer.  I think the drops on the Roadeo are my favorite position on the bike, while I probably rode more on the hoods of the Ram or at the curves at the top of the bar. 

Toshi

[Lum Gim Fong]

Update:

Now that I own both I can chime in for others' to read in the future.

I love both of these bikes equally.

Both have similar Nitto/Sugino Riv-ish builds. Wheelsets very different.

Handling:

700cx 32 Roadeo handles better than 650bx 42 Rambouillet.

Ram is slower to turn in on fast corners and cuts a wider path. Roadeo is faster to steer and gets me tighter through the curves easier. Less wandering.

Flats/Downhills: Both pretty simlilar. But Roadeo spins up faster, but may be due to different wheelsets and  tires. I use Compass 42 on the Ram and 30 PaselasTG on the Roadeo. LX/edeluxewidebody/Sapim/GB on Ram, VO/105/wheelsmith/CR18 on Roadeo.

Uphills: Roadeo ascends way easier. On some smaller rises, I don't even need to change gears and I can  just cruise over, where I have to downshift on those same hills with the Ram.  The Ram bogs down sometimes on inclines, the Roadeo just keeps smoothly ascending without loosing momentum and allows easier efforts and pedaling to get uphill. Of course, anything over 7% still tough for me on both bikes.

Cush: Roadeo is jouncier but the tires may be a big factor here. Roadeo has Pasela TG 32 vs. Compass 42 on the Ram.

In General: Though the Ram and Roadeo use identical cassettes,  I have a 3 tooth bigger chainring up front on the Roadeo and I am in higher cassette gears on all parts of familiar routes than with the Rambouillet.

Looks: Roadeo fork more elegantly shaped than Rambouillet but Rambouillet paint blue and decals and  headbadge are just gorgeous to look at. I would say that the Toyo paint and MUSA paint jobs are same quality of execution to my untrained eye.

Both are a joy to ride but the ease of pedaling on down the road difference is significant. Roadeo feels like a different class of bike, speedwise. The Roadeo is the more enjoyable, faster, easier ride. Less effort.

But I still love my Rambouillet to bits and enjoy riding it every time. It is a special and very unique bike. I wish I knew what color that blue is so I could paint the Roadeo the same color scheme as the Rambouillet.

Looking forward to trying my new Pacenti dyno wheelset with GB tires on the Roadeo.

[iamkeith]

You should swap the wheels and calipers now.

[Jonathan D.]

Would you be up for a ride report using the Roadeo wheels on the Ram?

[Sean Kline]

Do these bikes serve different purposes for you?

[Lum Gim Fong]

My riding is 22 mile round trip commutes.

Roadeo is for nice weather, light rain. Banana sax size load only.

650b Rambouillet is for any weather/winter riding. Now fendered with front rack and dyno lights and Berthoud bag for extra layers/jacket in winter, etc.

Over the spring and summer I had both bikes stripped down and only banana sax load so it was a fun comparison.

They now both have Selle Anatomica x2 saddles instead of Flyers so that saves .9lbs. on each bike. Builds are very close. Noodles/Nitto stems/BLR400 brake levers/Tektro brakes/XD2 cranksets/HG51 8-speed cassettes, SRAM chains/Kalloy seatposts/Silver DT shifters.

Wheelsets differ., though.

I will try to get the Roadeo wheels onto the Rambouillet to see what happens. But I just put the Honjos on the Rambouillet and don't know if they will fit under them.

If they do maybe I will go back to 700c on the Rambouillet. Interesting experiment.

Ram stripped down is 25 lbs. (no fenders/racks/decaleur).

Roadeo was 24.3lbs., but with a Flyer saddle. Now should be .9lbs lighter with the X2 saddle. I will have to re-weigh after getting the dyno wheels on and lights.

[Lum Gim Fong]

Ram:

https://flic.kr/p/ZYcEv4

https://flic.kr/p/26MkcTx

Roadeo: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmpG4rwT

[Lum Gim Fong]

Update:
So I have enjoyed the 700c ride so much on the Roadeo that I converted the Ram back to 700c to see if I was cheating the Ram out of zippiness by having it 650b. As a side note, R559 will work fine as 700c on Rambouillet, so I am leaving the longreaches on it. Looks like might be better fender clearance than R539 when I put fenders on it some day.

So I rode the Ram, 700c stripped down (no rack/fenders/only bananasax like Roadeo) and Roadeo on same hilly route.
The Rambouillet pretty much rides the same as it was 650b. Which is fantastic but not as zippy as Roadeo. Much easier on hills on Roadeo.

Same Paselas I had on Roadeo, and the Roadeo flew with Paselas. So the tires are not the issue. A23 wheelset/Sapim/LX on Ram. And though the A23 set is not the same CR18 set I had on Roadeo with those Paselas, I cannot imagine that the A23 set is any heavier than the 2,091gram CR18 set was, or would perform any worse. The A23 set probably has only 600 miles on it tops and I had them custom built by LBS a couple years ago so I know it is in top running order. They were the original Ram wheelset before I 650b converted it.

I think the Roadeo is totally another class of bike than other Rivbikes. Not better or worse. Just a totally different kind of bike. As described on Rivsite it is. And definitely takes speediness to another level. Though I don’t pay much attention to speed. Mostly just pay attention to how easy a bike is to pedal down the road. The Roadeo definitely easier and takes less effort to pedal along, which I like and need for an enjoyable ride.

They both have similar Rivish XD2/Nitto builds. Maybe a two pound difference? I would have to confirm.

[Jonathan D.]

This is a great comparison. Thank you. I am curious are the bikes sized the same way? I only ask because I find a smaller fitting bike can feel faster to me.

[Lum Gim Fong]

53 Bleriot
55 Bleriot
52 blue Sam
54 Ram
53 Roadeo

I used 6cm stems on all but 55 Bleriot, which used 7cm stem. Coulda used a 6.

[Bill Schairer]

What about gearing? Are they identically geared? To me, the gearing is what makes a bike feel sluggish or not. If I’ve got the right gears for how I feel, the terrain, the weather, the load all feels good. The same bike can feel great one day and not the next depending on conditions. All else just seems way way secondary to me.

Bill

[Deacon Patrick]

Bill, test ride a carbon racer with all the gears you could possibly want, a Wally World bike-shapped-object with all the gears you could possibly want, and a Quickbeam with a gear you’d want (plus LCG, of course), and tell me if you agree with yourself. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Lum Gim Fong]

The Ram and Rodeo have the same exact cassette model and toothcounts.
Ram has 40T XD2big ring.
Roadeo 43 XD2 big ring.
I only use big rings on both. No front derailers on the bikes.
I am consistantly in higher cassette gears on Roadeo on same routes, even though it has a bigger T count big ring.

On my previous bikes I would have good days and bad days. On the rodeo I’ve only had good days so far. It takes way less effort to peddle the rodeo down the road.

[Bill Schairer]

Patrick,

Admittedly, my experience with different bikes is limited compared to many but, between the two bikes I ride regularly, there is probably a 10 lb or so difference and they both go just fine. The lighter one is set up with granny half step gearing and so is easier to get just the right gear and maybe go faster. My Atlantis, the heavier, has half steps but they require double shifts and I am much more likely to feel bogged down on it BUT, on the days where the gearing happens to be just right, I’ve set some of my PR’s on Strava. The one I’ve ridden the most recently is usually the one that feels the best until I adjust on the other after a few rides and then it feels the best.

Ride a fully loaded tandem for two weeks then get on your single and it will be practically uncontrollable until you adjust. I think the same when switching singles just less dramatic. I bought a junker Windsor off CL for the parts. The first time I rode it, I couldn’t stand it. Rode it a couple more times and, you know what, it wasn’t half bad. I adjusted.

I’ve ridden my son’s plastic bike and a friend’s Seven Ti, both far ligher than anything I have with fancy wheels etc and, while I loved the Seven (perfect fit) and hated the plastic (admittedly the fit was not great), I didn’t feel faster on either going up down or somewhere in between. Both had compact doubles which I simply detest - my best gears are the most cross chained with an awkward shift right in the middle. So, I guess I need to get a Seven with a granny and half step and see if I still agree with myself. I look from time to time, grin. Regardless, unless they are set up exactly the same, I think I (the I emphasized somehow) can’t tell nothin.

Now, my Bike Friday is slower. It just doesn’t have the roll. Small wheels or is it the IGH?

Bill

[Bill Schairer]

Lum,

It would seem the case is closed! Not that it wasn’t for you already. Now, should I be happy with my ignorant bliss or try to convince my wife I need to keep searching? I hope that isn’t sounding sarcastic because, if so, it is not intended. It may just be that I’m not capable of discerning differences others can, something I guess that can cut both ways. That is unquestionably the case when it comes to smell and taste in comparison to my wife. When on the GDMBR the weight I was carrying would vary quite a bit day to day depending on food supplies or the times we would lighten the load of the sick and I honestly was oblivious to it while others would be arguing to ditch food they thought expendable. To me, I was like whatever.

Bill

[Mike Godwin]

Max

The washed out photo of the Ram makes it look like a toy, to go on a birthday cake.

MIke

[Patrick Moore]

Thinking more clearly, one of the bikes that just "felt" right from the beginning was a porky Herse -- earlier owners had dumped it because of its (for them) excessively stout tubing. Despite the weight penalty, it was one of those bikes that seemed to require a cog 1 tooth smaller. Too bad that the handling wasn't up to my benchmark Rivendell standards.

The gofast just feels fast, but (as above) it's not just the 7 or 8 lb weight saving over my almost identical '03, which fits and is set up the same -- this one has all the accoutrements: racks, fenders, dyno lighting, and so forth. That is wonderful, but it doesn't feel as fast as the gofast.

I know about adjustments. My Rivs have Qs of 130 mm; my Matthews has a Q of 160. I get on the Matthews after riding the Rivs for a week, and it feels awkward -- for about 500 feet. (Tho' I would happily reduce the Q by 10 or 20 mm if I could.) And there's the fixed versus free adjustment; the Matthews is the only bike of 3 that has a freewheel.

I'd expect taller wheels to roll easier, all else equal; certainly, the 20" wheels on the Dahon Hon Solo feel more sluggish, but then we are comparing Tioga PowerBands with Elk Passes and Big Ones. Funny, I am beginning to think that the Big Ones (700C C 60) roll better even than the Compass Elk Passes, 559 X 29.

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Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?

[Lum Gim Fong]

Bill,
You must be a strong rider to be able to ride down the road without loads effecting you.

I am a weak rider so maybe that’s why I feel a difference.? I don’t know. When I got the Roadeo I was expecting a slight difference but had no idea it was going to be so vastly different.

Maybe strong riders can ride the bikes down the road no matter what it is and feels the same to them. Big muscle maybe overpowers the frame diffs?

[Bill Schairer]

“You must be a strong rider to be able to ride down the road without loads effecting you.”

Lum,

I don’t really think so but I’ve never raced and almost always ride alone except when touring and so don’t really have a lot of comparison points. Sometimes others pass me and sometimes I pass others. I do shift a LOT and pay a lot of attention to my gearing, trying to fine tune it. I guess it is just my sensitivity level isn’t very fine tuned and not just as it might relate to cycling. My wife might complain that it is too hot today or too cold today or too humid and I’m likely to think “really? Is it hot today? I guess so, I hadn’t really noticed.” Like I said, I think this can cut both ways. Sometimes I wish I were more discerning and other times I’m glad I’m not.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/22/2018 07:34 PM, Bill Schairer wrote:
> I’ve ridden my son’s plastic bike and a friend’s Seven Ti, both far ligher than anything I have with fancy wheels etc and, while I loved the Seven (perfect fit) and hated the plastic (admittedly the fit was not great), I didn’t feel faster on either going up down or somewhere in between. Both had compact doubles which I simply detest - my best gears are the most cross chained with an awkward shift right in the middle. So, I guess I need to get a Seven with a granny and half step and see if I still agree with myself. I look from time to time, grin. Regardless, unless they are set up exactly the same, I think I (the I emphasized somehow) can’t tell nothin.

Or you could try chain rings with smaller difference between the rings
(e.g. 10-12T difference) so you don't have to adjust 2 shifts in back
when you cross over, and with a smaller big ring.  Crossover gearing is
a lot more pleasant to live with if you set it up so you can do most of
your riding on the big ring without having to cross over to the small
ring except for serious hills.  With modern 8-10+ gear systems, the
spacing between shifts can be as close as with half-step, only you don't
have to do double shifts every other shift, provided you pick the chain
rings and the sprockets carefully.


--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[Lum Gim Fong]

I cheerfully  recommend to anyone who rides only familiar routes to get a wide/low double crankset with an outer chainring and cassette T-count combo that enables you to go everywhere you usually ride in just the big ring, and a 24 small ring for the steep stuff on routes you normally don't ride where you run into steepness you are unfamiliar with.

[Bill Schairer]

I just see no reason not to go with a triple. I’ve got a 1x in traffic on my middle ring not too badly cross chained all the way up and down where I can go from a dead stop all the way up into the 20’s. I’ve got my granny for steep hills or long climbs where I want a better chainline or I’m tired or have a heavy load and I’ve got a slightly bigger chainring for a bit higher end or better chainline or for half stepping to find the perfect gear on longer runs. I don’t need no pins or ramps and I try to find rings so I have no duplicate gears. Range plus small steps plus better chainlines - I’ve just never understood why not. I don’t care if you’ve got 20 cogs on the back the gap between 11T and 12T is always the same but I can half step it. Obviously, it is a personal thing but those are my reasons and would never envision myself riding a double regularly because no matter what I can do with a 1x or 2x, I can do it better with a 3x. If I ever do buy a “race” bike, first change I would make is to put a triple on it.

I’ve often wondered why the domestiques don’t ride triples. Rather than coming to a grinding halt when their turn is done, they could drop to the granny and be fresher the next day? If it is a few grams then why not shave the beard and head or lose the jewelry? I suspect it is an image thing but then I’ve never raced so I really don’t know anything at all.

Bill

[Max S]

For one, triple cranks have wider tread / Q factor. Some people are sensitive to even 5 mm differences, and racers are perhaps the most sensitive segment. Plus greater chances of dropping chains, etc. etc. And time cut-offs... spinning in a granny may be too slow to make it.

[Bill Schairer]

Good points or I thought are there rules? But even spinning for a few minutes to recover must be faster than the near dead stops one often sees. Anyway, I've always wondered about it. Has a pro ever ridden a triple in the big races?

Bill

[Lum Gim Fong]

I guess I mean that with my 11-32 T, 8-speed cassette I can go anywhere in my usual riding area with my 40T wide/low double big chain ring. Also my other bikes 43 chain ring. I used to ride triples all the time but was happy to discover I can get by with one chain ring and appropriate 8-speed cassette spread and never have to shift on the front unless I’m riding in unfamiliar terrain outside of my area which is almost never.

I suggested for those who don’t like front shifting or FDs, like me. Simpler setup. And with wide/low double with chainguard I don’t have to tuck my long pants into my sock to keep pants free of outer ring. Bonus.

Yes, if I went back to hilly event rides, I’d throw the FD back on for the steep stuff. But for my needs I like not having to front shift and contend with the occassional complaints from front derailer.

As for pro racers, I am sure they have very good and carefully thought out reasons for what they ride. After all, alot of money is at stake for them and they are not dummies.

[Patrick Moore]

I switched to sub-compact doubles from Riv-standard triples some years ago when I found that on my "sandy-dirt-biased" Fargo, although my 46/36/24 was fine for pavement riding (almost all on the 46 and the 7 smallest of the 9 cogs), but that, when I went on mixed terrain rides with steeper hills or deeper sand, those lowish-middle gears required by the terrain far too much shifting between the outer and middle rings. I switched to a 44/30 and eventually, with the current Matthews, changed to a 42/28 and 10 cogs; all of which allowed me to get even closer mid-range gearing while still having a perfectly sufficiently high 89" high and 31" low (46" low on the 42), which works just fine for my sort of riding. (14-27 mismatched 10-speed -- 89-83-77-73-69-65-62 ( 69-65-62 is my cruising range in the flat but sandy bosque; yes, the 65 to 62 is a very convenient drop) -56-52-46, and then 46 to 31 on the 24.).)

With a very subcompact 2X10, I get almost the same range and as-close spacing as with the 3X9, but more of it on the outer ring, so no awkward front shifting; and I still have the granny for traumatic situations (like turning a 90* corner on the very sandy, often muddy soil under the Montano bridge, while having to negotiate a 6" high concrete bump followed by even deeper sand; all this requiring massive torque and thus a quick dump to the granny). 

However, as for climbing, I personally like to stand, so 46" gets me up most hills in my immediate area.

I am sure I read that, back when cassettes were limited to 10 or even 9, some pros used triples in the mountain stages.

On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 10:56 AM, Bill Schairer <comm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good points or I thought are there rules?  But even spinning for a few minutes to recover must be faster than the near dead stops one often sees. Anyway, I've always wondered about it. Has a pro ever ridden a triple in the big races?

Bill

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[Jamo.]

It's nice to read this, however the roadeo is hard to come by and out of my price range.  I am curious how the ram would compare to the roadini, haven ridden neither that fits me properly.  Any thoughts on speed, steering, comfort...?

[Lum Gim Fong]

Good question:

Having not ridden one could check out the tubing specs to guess from that.

Best we can know is, if I have copied all this correctly:

Ram:Reynolds/TrueTemper mix. 8/5/8 DT/TT, 9/6 ST, 1.0 FBlades, 16mm x .7 seatstays, .76 or .8 chainstays.

Roadini:
“0.9 x 0.7 TT and the length is cut from the butt (0.9) end. So you get the 0.9 up at the front, where top tubes buckle. The 0.7 is on the thick side for a belly (though it's the same as old Columbus SP, which was 1.0 x 0.7 x 1.0--as a historical reference).

The 0.7 seat-post end is light. But that's the least stressed portion on a top tube. We use the same tube on our heavier bikes, but they're not "chopped from the butt." Weight difference is minimal.

DT is a tapered tube--31.8 x 1.1 at the head tube, to 28.6 x 0.8 at the bottom bracket. It's another "chopped from the butt" tube, to minimize the 1.1 length, but still giving it a lot of buckle-resistance.

You might wonder why a tapered tube here, and why not fatten it at the BB? (Like Serotta's old "Colorado Concept" tubes were.) Well...almost all of the tilting/fatigue stress down there at the crank is localized on the base of the seat tube. I've seen 30 bikes (not all ours, thanks...) break there, and zero break at the downtube. Strain gauge stess analysis reveals that the stress is light on the down tube, heavy on the seat tube.

That's why, on our TIG'd bikes, the seat tube is 1.1 there, and ovalized laterally to 34.9 x 28.6.”

[Reed Kennedy]

Great info, thanks Lum. Might I ask where you're quoting from? 

I found some (but not all) of that info here:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/ROADINI_MAR_8.pdf

(Has a nice Roadeo vs Roadini section.)

I measured an AHH last night that had tapered butting. I measured three times to make sure I wasn't getting a bad reading! Great to have some confirmation of Riv using tapered tubes elsewhere. Would love to know where you found that, and who said it.

I didn't think to measure if the tube itself was tapered. It was luged, so I imagine not. Wish I'd measured, though!

Best,

Reed

 

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[Lum Gim Fong]

@Reed:
But of course!

Ram: from RivReader scan as posted on cyclofiend page.
Roadini: from an email response from Grant

I had asked him about the differences between the Roadini, NewHomer, and MUSARodeos because I wanted to get the lightest, fastest Rivbike model ever made as I already had 8/5/8 Rivs that were too overbuilt for me. So I knew I wanted something snappier and wanted to know what the lightest/thinnest tubed model was. He gave me the specs of the bikes so I could make a decision. I thought it over and knew I could not buy 8/5/8 or thicker again.

The reason I call the Roadeo the MUSARoadeo is because there may be a TaiwanRoadeo coming out later that is so far planned be longer and stouter built than MUSA version (same source) so want to clarify for future readers which iteration we are discussing.

[Reed Kennedy]

Excellent information and everything I was hoping to know. Thanks so much Lum! Great to have info from Grant himself.

Best,

Reed

[Fullylugged]

Ram tubing is all Tohouku-Miyata. Heat treated DT & CS. Balance non heat treated.
DT & TT .8/.5/.8 double butted
ST 1.0/.6 butted
HT .9
SS .7 double tapered
CS .8
Forks 1.0

Inspired by the Longlow. designed for quick handling, credit card touring, 38 mm max tire size.

[Reed Kennedy]

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 7:33 PM Fullylugged <bruce.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ram tubing is all Tohouku-Miyata.  Heat treated DT & CS.  Balance non heat treated.
DT & TT .8/.5/.8   double butted
ST 1.0/.6  butted
HT  .9
SS .7 double tapered
CS .8
Forks 1.0

Great stuff, thanks for that. It lines up well with the Ram I measured. I've gone ahead and added your details as a tubing note on my spreadsheet.

Best,

Reed 

[Jonathan D.]

Does anyone know if the Romulus used the same tubing as the Ram?

[Reed Kennedy]

Grant describes the differences between the Romulus and the Rambouillet (and the AHH) here, a bit down the page:
http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/romulus/index.html

He doesn't mention any tubing changes, so I suspect they're the same. I haven't gotten to measure one yet, though. Hope to track one down before too long!

Best,

Reed

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 10:34 AM Jonathan D. <jdone...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does anyone know if the Romulus used the same tubing as the Ram? 

[Kieran J]

Too bad I didn't have my Ram at the Unmeeting. I've always assumed it's OS 8-5-8 but since it's the biggest size, I'd sure like confirmation. Maybe some day :-D

KJ

[Bruce Herbitter]

Yes Kieran it’s .8/.5/.8

Sent from my iPhone

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[Reed Kennedy]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:19 PM Bruce Herbitter <bruce.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes Kieran it’s .8/.5/.8

 

Hey Bruce, thanks for sharing that. Would you mind letting us know how you came by that information?

Best,

Reed

[Reed Kennedy]

Spoke with Bruce off-list a bit and he helped me track down this archive of an old Riv web page that does indeed list the Ram tubing specs:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070513053057/http://rivbike.com/webalog/frames/50074.html

It's listed as .8/.5/.8 OS, exactly as Bruce said. Excitingly, that almost perfectly matches the measurements I recently took from a 64cm Ram:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XeS2nJhBPSDRbqgG1-F2VOI_vK1QZnZmysARDJWyGps/edit?usp=sharing

I took the measurements before I saw those specs, so that validates my results nicely.

Best,

Reed 

[Don Compton]

At one time  I owned a 60cm Ram and a 59cm Rom. I thought that the Rom was heavier and kind of dead. I really liked the Ram, Great handling and a lively feel. My Roadeo is a step above the Ram.

On Friday, January 26, 2018 at 1:48:03 PM UTC-8, Lum Gim Fong wrote:

Please only those who have ridden both:

I own a blue Ram.

Gonna be any noticeable ride diffs if I get a Roadeo?

I do road riding with light loads.

Just wondering if worth getting one or if it is virtually the same experience.

Thanks for the info.

[Kieran J]

Well, there ya go. 9-6-9 after all for mine. Huh!

KJ

[Jonathan D.]

I have a 58 Ram and 57 Rom and there does feel like a difference. I wonder if it is in my head. They are built similar but different wheels. The models are the same geometry and supposedly 98% the same. The Ram feels like a more flexible lovely ride. Perhaps it is just the color orange. At some point I’ll probably post a Romulus for sale. I am 210 so anything thinner then 858 probably would be a bad idea.

[Reed Kennedy]

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 6:51 AM Jonathan D. <jdone...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a 58 Ram and 57 Rom and there does feel like a difference. I wonder if it is in my head. They are built similar but different wheels. The models are the same geometry and supposedly 98% the same. The Ram feels like a more flexible lovely ride. Perhaps it is just the color orange. At some point I’ll probably post a Romulus for sale. I am 210 so anything thinner then 858 probably would be a bad idea.

Food for thought: I weigh 201 pounds and my 61 cm Rawland Nordavinden works extremely well for me. That frame uses a standard diameter 7/4/7 top tube and standard diameter 8/5/8 downtube:

http://rawlandcycles.blogspot.com/2012/07/nordavinden-geometry-and-specifications.html

Taking in to account the narrower diameter tubing, this frame is significantly more flexible than an 8/5/8 oversized frame. Leaves me wondering: Am I special? Or do folks tend to over-estimate the tubing needed by larger riders?

I’ll be riding it on the New England Randonneurs Fall Classic 120k this Saturday. Curious to see how it holds up on an 85% dirt route!

Best, 

Reed

[Rod Holland]

Reed,

I'll raise you a few pounds. At 227, I'm very happy with the lively handling of my 58 cm Nordavinden. I'm also delighted with my two Surly LHT variants (700c and 26"), and my Ebisu All Purpose. I can tell the difference in handling among them, of course, but can ride any of them fast and far, over a gamut of surfaces. I'm running Compass or Grand Bois ELs on all of them, and that has no doubt improved the ride experience in all cases.

rod

[Bruce Herbitter]

Hi Reed:

I test rode a Norvindian owned by a fellow cyclist in Mobile.  I found it much less lively than my Ram.  She loves it however.  Maybe lugs vs welds?   The Ram is fine on gravel with fat tires.  I did a gravel grind on Pasela 1 1/2” and ride was okay.  I was leery of the brakes on steep loose down hills and canti or disc would be my suggestion for gravel. On packed clay the bike as is is fine.  

Have a super ride. Mine will be in Saucier MS this weekend for the Southern Magnolia Century.  A cousin of my wife from LA is meeting me to ride the New Albion Starling I built for her.  There’s a riv ish brand at a lower price point too. Very good ride.  

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Reed Kennedy]

Hey Rod, my subjective experience is similar to yours. My A. Homer Hilsen has a different feel than my Nordavinden, which in turn feels different than my MAP. I have subjective thoughts on which of them "feel" fastest, but none of them hold me back significantly in my non-competitive randonneuring.

I personally believe that bike fit is by far the most important factor. After that, running high supple tires seems to make the second biggest difference. Once I've optimized those two things, having a frame that flexes in a way that works for me comes third. Weight, within a couple pounds, comes a distance fourth for me when it comes to optimal performance.

Which is to say, I recommend getting your tires and fit dialed in as perfectly as possible before you even begin to worry about frame flex or weight!

Best,

Reed

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[Reed Kennedy]

Interesting Bruce! That's not what I would have expected. Were the Nord and the Ram built up and fit similarly?

Curious about the brakes in particular. I originally had my Nord set up some dual pivot calipers, which I did not like. Power was fair, but modulation poor. They made me uncomfortable on dirt. I worried I would jiggle my grip over a bump and lock a wheel. I replaced them with a pair of Paul Racer M brakes driven by Gevenalle (Tektro) levers, and it is now the best braking bike I own.

I haven't heard of TIG vs lugs effecting frame flexibility or ride quality before, but it'd be curious to learn more. Any engineers out there who would care to comment?

Have fun at the Southern Magnolia Century! That sounds like a lovely place for a ride.

Best,

Reed

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[ascpgh]

Wow Rod, I have a Rambouillet and a Disc Trucker, the latter I'm happy with for its intended use but wouldn't say the ride delights me. I find that even after 20 miles (unloaded) I am aware of the stiffer tubing of its build. 

Maybe the disc fork makes that much of a difference but the net take away from my riding is that I'll underbike the heck out of my Ram before I'll overbike the Trucker. which is only ridden other than commuting because of its generator lights and always mounted Nelson Longflap. I'm in process of fixing those oversights.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Rod Holland]

Well, I came to Grand Bois and Compass EL tires early on my Surlys, and found they transformed the ride experience; I've logged 12K+ miles on the 700c LHT, much of that unloaded. It's definitely a different dynamic profile, but I find it agreeable. You might say I have a soft spot in my head for touring bikes... An apologia can be found at https://groups.google.com/d/msg/surlylht/MwHsem_vVoI/yCc8jPvMBQAJ .

I have an MIT Atlantis build in progress, btw, and just picked up an old Ram. 

rod

[Forrest]

I've had two of each. I agree completely with Max Beach's assessment, especially this: "Roadeo is a bit lighter, feels a bit more sprightly on the steep climbs.  But just a bit.  They are both smooth as butter and very comfortable."