Lower price Atlantis!

[Bill Lindsay]

The BLUG today announced an upcoming pre-sale for a less expensive Atlantis.  No doubt they will be made in Taiwan.  The pricing hint is "a tad more than an Appaloosa".  Is it good that Rivendell is evolving?  I say yes.  Is it a little sad that the Atlantis is changing?  I say sure, a little.  I'd bet a dollar that some of their recent cashflow worries came from the financials around this change.  Made to order frames are expensive but cost you nothing until somebody wants to buy one.  Taiwan builds have to be done in expensive pre-paid runs, which require a bunch of cash on hand. 

The curved double TT of the biggest size was on instagram I think. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[DarinM]

I think this is a good move for Riv. Won't surprised if other models follow suit. 

Bill, can you link to what you suspect is a picture of the curvy TT XL? I don't see anything like that on their insta. The Blug description sounds really cool/interesting but I'm having trouble visualizing a curved second TT. Would it be step-through style or will the TT still be straight? I'm really excited to see this project even though I wouldn't be able to buy one anytime soon.

Darin

[Joe Bernard]

Interesting. A short while back I alluded to the idea that Riv seemed headed out of the Waterford-frames business in favor of the Taiwan stuff people will actually pay for, and don't require a long might-change-my-mind wait. I think the Taiwan shop does immaculate work, and I like being able to afford them. I'm all in!

Joe Bernard

[Drw]

I am both happy that they are making cheaper bikes and also happy that i have a waterford atlantis. I wonder a little about the purpose of keeping a bike like the appaloosa in the lineup when the atlantis will be a similar price and get longer stays (and presumably hunqapillar will also go the same way).  In general, i think the model lineup could be tightened up. 

I'd like to see the hunqapillar go plus sized and full mountainy. keep the atlantis as tour/all rounder. Sam OR hilsen as road/all rounder. Roadini as road bike and clem as even more budget oriented bikes. Then they could play with some weirder, Rosco-like experiments without trying to maintain orders for 10 different models

[James Warren]

This is great news! I was just thinking yesterday that the Atlantis, with its large price tag Waterford construction, had moved to a state that had gotten away from its original mission - more affordable all-rounder. Now I realize that it's almost 19 years since the original creation of the model, and yes, things change: incrementally over the years, the factors that have pushed the Atlantis frame to $2700 all make sense. But despite all that, I'm glad that the company recognizes the importance of a more moderately priced awesome all-rounder, and that the Atlantis deserves that distinction (even though Hillborne and Appaloosa cover that duty well also.) And to me, I don't see this as sad that the Atlantis is changing. It already has changed, or at least circumstances surrounding it have changed - the current price of $2700 is a strong indication of those changes.

- Jim W.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Lindsay
Sent: Mar 19, 2018 3:10 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Subject: [RBW] Lower price Atlantis!

The BLUG today announced an upcoming pre-sale for a less expensive Atlantis.  No doubt they will be made in Taiwan.  The pricing hint is "a tad more than an Appaloosa".  Is it good that Rivendell is evolving?  I say yes.  Is it a little sad that the Atlantis is changing?  I say sure, a little.  I'd bet a dollar that some of their recent cashflow worries came from the financials around this change.  Made to order frames are expensive but cost you nothing until somebody wants to buy one.  Taiwan builds have to be done in expensive pre-paid runs, which require a bunch of cash on hand. 

The curved double TT of the biggest size was on instagram I think. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

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[Bill Lindsay]

Maybe I saw it in person, or maybe I’m thinking of Kevens weird curvature custom. If you don’t find it on Rivs Instagram then I’m sure I won’t find it.

[Bill Lindsay]

On Rivs Instagram on my phone there are three photos per row. On row 17 there’s a photo of inside Riv hq with the caption “will talking shop”. It also has the hashtag #rivbikesaturdays. Hanging in the background is a big unpainted frame with the curvatube I saw.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[iamkeith]

Very interesting news.  So many questions....

Ironically, the 2016 geometry revisions - particularly the addition of the 59cm/650b - have had me seriously trying to figure out how to swing an Atlantis purchase for the first time ever.  I've continued to think of that model as my aspirational zenith.  Not obsolete at all.   Simply not a good physical fit until now and, at the waterford price, I just was not willing to settle.   I bet others feel the same.   

The 2016 sizes already went from 2 degree top tubes to 3 degrees, so 6 degrees will be interesting.  I assume that means a shift to the "expanded sizing' and a lot fewer size increments again, which unfortunately has not been kind to me.  But I'm crossing my fingers, and can't wait to see what they come up with.

Wonder if they'll change the decal to say "Atlantis 3."

Also interesting to think of the fillet brazed bottom bracket as a "shortcut," and wonder what the rationale is for doing so IF I'm right about there being fewer sizes and which would mean a need for fewer distinct shell castings.    I always thought of that as a high-end custom detail. 

Lastly, here's crossing my fingers that lugs at the head tube retain the 'points' instead of the rounded shape like on the more pedestrian models....

[Bin Chen]

I'm in favor of it. I love my Atlantis to death but I couldn't have afforded it new. Luckily I bought it used. Happy for those that will be able to enjoy a similar ride in the future :)

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:10:48 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Jonathan]

Grant posted a photo of a frame with a curved 2nd tube in this thread about the Silver shifters back in December. 

Silver Shifter 2 project revived

[Ray Varella]

Bill,
There was a “spy photo” that Grant posted in a thread a while back.
I don’t recall what the discussion was about and don’t know what heading to search for.
That might also be the frame you were thinking of. He hinted that it was something in the possible works.

Ray

[Jonathan D.]

It does make me wonder what role the Joe Appaloosa plays now and it seems like some mdels will be dropped. I already thought Joe was the Taiwan Atlantis and Sam the Taiwan AHH, Roadeo = Roadini. Excited to see pics.

[tc]

Oh man, I want one!  Weehoo - a lower priced Atlantis FINALLY!

Wait, I have a  58 Sam.  I'd ride a 61 Atlantis with the current Waterford geometry.

Why would I want the newly re-imagined Atlantis?

New Atlantis will have same top tube angle as my Sam, so there's that.  

Additionally, my 58 Sam chain stay is 45.5cm.  Current 61 Atlantis chain stay is 48, and the re-imagined ones will be even longer?

So maybe it'll will be a beefier forked Sam with longer chainstays, painted Atlantis green.  And maybe more water bottle braze ons?

Is Atlantis tubing in general more stout?

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 6:10:48 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:

The BLUG today announced an upcoming pre-sale for a less expensive Atlantis....

[Tony DeFilippo]

Anything to get the Atlantis back in the Riv standard list of offerings... As good as so many of their frames, especially the new ones are I can't help but believe they are all slight to not so slight chips off that original block.

If the modern Atlantis is a lugged Clem in a larger spread of sizes I think it's a winner - and that is a compliment to both the Clem and the Atlantis imo. Extra tire clearance never hurt anyone.

Still the best name, best headbadge and most instantly recognizable color scheme...

[Joe Bernard]

I would argue the Bleriot and Quickbeam compete for best name/badge, but of current models Atlantis wins, hands down. Agreed about the color, too, it's fantastic.

[Max S]

Verrry interrrresting.... 

My low trail Ebisu 650b is the bees knees, though I'm interested in something with even fatter tire compatibility (say 50 with generous fender clearance vs. 38) and an upslope to the TT (which would be a first here!). 

Of the current Riv offerings, a Sam would seem to be the closest, but the 59cm/650b Atlantis is even better... Given the price and the wait, This forthcoming Neu-'Tlantis could be the bike with the magic combo. A sell-off of current holdings may be in the making, as details develop! 

- Max in A2

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 6:10:48 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[VeloVert]

On the biggest sizes, the “top” top tube is straight but slopes up and the “bottom” top tube curves like the top part of a circle.

[dougP]

Organizations have to evolve as their environment changes.  Products have to evolve as markets change.  We can all imagine the discussions at Rivendell over major changes to an iconic model.  This had to be an especially tough situation:  reduce cost while retaining the spirit of the bike; get sales up to a level to support production; update in terms of current philosophy on geometry without sacrificing ride quality & utility.  Over the life of the Atlantis, they've likely learned some things that will reflect in the new version.  The design had already gotten longer chainstays and 650B wheels in the mid sizes.  This is probably an excellent strategic move, and I hope it gets people excited to buy one. 

dougP (still in love with my '03)

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:10:48 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[DarinM]

Thanks for posting Jonathan, now I remember being intrigued by that "diversion attempt."

Looks awesome. Intersecting the DT means you don't have to paint a weird/difficult line around a fillet on the cream head tube, but I wonder if there is any other advantage to doing it this way.

It seems like fillet brazed frames coming out of Taiwan is kind of a new thing in the past few months (Crust LB, Frank Jones Sr. BB), does that seem accurate to others? Is it cheaper than lugs?

Darin

[Lum Gim Fong]

So is there really any diff between a hypothetical Waterford, Toyo, and Taiwan Atlantis (fully lugged braising construction-wise)?

If one was made by all three, could anyone tell a difference?

[Joe Bernard]

You can generally deduce a Japan/USA Riv from Taiwan by the fancier lugs, but no, there's no way I would know the difference based on construction, weight or ride. It's apparent that the crew in Taiwan are fantastic builders, and the paint is great, too.

[Belopsky]

I don't think it's cheaper than lugged but if allows more variance in the sta/hta/bb angles than lugged

[iamkeith]

That's my understanding too, which is why it's such a curious decision. Made sense for the limited-run FJS, but presumably this will remain a permanent model. 6 degree top tube indicates fewer configurations / sizes likely.

Another thing about the FJS is that it didn't require cable routing guides. Does the Atlantis get a screw-on platic jobber like the Clem???

[iamkeith]

Maybe "tunnels" like Ritchey and Potts used?

[Tony DeFilippo]

With a Tiawan-built Atlantis 'a little bit more' than an Appaloosa is there a compelling reason to hold on to the Appaloosa in Riv's line up?  If they are trying to normalize their inventory for their own cash flow and to always have frames on hand for interested buyers I could see them go forward with a pattern of orders like;

-Clem H's and L's - every order

-Rosco or Roadini project - one at a time, maybe skipping orders

-Cheviots, Sams, Atlantis - alternate orders

Seems like there are 2 or 3 orders of frames per year from Taiwan and they are always a large cash outlay.  But if they settled into a predictable pattern at least for the Chev-Sam-Atlantis core Tiawan frames a customer could always either purchase off the shelf or sign up for the next pre-order and have a known wait.  I also wonder if bringing the Atlantis back means the Sam could go back to sidepull/centerpull brake to skew more road-ish (personally I see no downside to canti's).

That leaves the AHH, Roadeo, Hunq and MUSA Atlantis frames in the realm of the made to order timeline of course.  Maybe the next Rosco/Roadini project should be a Rosco-Hunq.

Armchair bike business critique isn't as much fun as armchair bike design/bike component critique...  but I am happy to hear the Atlantis will be available again soon. 

Tony

[masmojo]

Well, a recent post floated the question " what would it take to get you to buy another Riv" (or something like that) and, well, this might be IT!
I kinda hope they do a new color!?

[Tom Wyland]

Tony, 

Yeah, armchair product management is fun!  From a marketing standpoint, I think the message of "last chance for 18 months" might spur more sales then "last chance until sometime next year" message. It depends if the goal is to broaden audience (new customers) or get existing customers to "ladder up" to the next level of product. They clearly could use some grouping/filtering of frames on the website so perhaps "in stock," "pre-order," and "custom order" could be one of them (in addition to price bands). 

Tom

[Belopsky]

yeah this is pretty standard. drilled and tapped bb hole for the plastic guide.

[iamkeith]

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 8:18:42 AM UTC-6, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

With a Tiawan-built Atlantis 'a little bit more' than an Appaloosa is there a compelling reason to hold on to the Appaloosa in Riv's line up? ...  That leaves the AHH, Roadeo, Hunq and MUSA Atlantis frames in the realm of the made to order timeline of course.  Maybe the next Rosco/Roadini project should be a Rosco-Hunq.

Armchair bike business critique isn't as much fun as armchair bike design/bike component critique...  but I am happy to hear the Atlantis will be available again soon. 

Ha!  I sure hope these discussions aren't taken as critique in the purest sense of "criticism."  We all just love daydreaming about the possibilities and speculating  about the details, out of our shared love for Rivendell, right?  That's why the forum exists in the first place.

Here is an interesting comment from Grant to Jim, from 2008, as the more-affordable-model Bleriot  program was being wound down.   You can see that as far back as then, he had envisioned a lineup scenario in which they would continue to offer the marque, boutique-builder models as well as an affordable Taiwan-built version of each.  With the addition of the Roadini, it seems like they had FINALLY acheived that goal!  No sooner done, and they now have to recalibrate.  Not wishing to pick on Waterford, but it must be incredibly frustrating that they can't find a builder who could seize the opportunity to make this work domestically at an in-the-middle price point.

The QBP partnership was pleasant, I have only the best things to say about QBP, but it was about a dozen and a half dealers that sealed the Bleriot's fate.

We could, I suppose, continue to get them ourselves. But the original deal was created with the help of QBP's trading company, and it wouldn't be fair for us to tie up its time with business that no longer involves QBP. So rather than put them in the position of "handing off" the Bleriot deal to a competitor trading company--after they'd worked so hard on the details--I'm just going to kill the fine bike and start fresh with another trading company and a few more bikes, which--if all goes well which it hardly ever does--will be ready in about January, March, May, and July of 2009.

The concepts are: Cheap Quickbeam, cheap A. Homer/Saluki, cheap Atlantis, and cheap Mixte. The plan is four sizes each: 48-52-56-60, all with 6-deg upsloping top tubes (like Bombadil), so each size will fit a wider rage of leglengths/riders.

I say "cheap," but the quality will be the same as the Bleriot. Made in Taiwan. Our lugs, crowns, bb shells, tube pick, 'ame & 'phics, all that. Probably they'll be one-color (no cream head tube), and m-m-may retail for $700 or a hair less (not $699.99!).

Our minimums per bike are 150. So, four sizes is about 37 each, which will give us good depth and stock for a while.

But, yea Tony's right - If the Atlantis now becomes one of the "budget models" AND has longer stays similar to the Appaloosa, AND a sloped top tube and canti brakes like the Sam, AND stouter tubing and better tire clearance like a Clem, there are all sorts of questions about how those other models stay relevant.  I'm guessing there will continue to be some significant distinctions.   For me, even different wheel sizes or alternating fit / size increments might be enough.

[iamkeith]

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 8:18:42 AM UTC-6, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

  Maybe the next Rosco/Roadini project should be a Rosco-Hunq.

 Also, I kind of think that that's exactly what the Clem Smith Jr. project was:  Just as the Rosco Bubbes' impetus grew out of a stockpile of surpluss forks, the Clems started out as a way to use up some lugs from an abandoned project, on a mountain-ish fat tire bike, with the expectation that it would be a short-lived or single-run project. 

Speaking of unsolicited critiquing of business decisions, what I think is crazy is the fact that people (including Riv) are "surprised" by the success of such a bike.  I think it has less to do with the price than the functionality.  If it were me making decisions, THAT's the bike I'd pick to do what they're doing with the Atlantis:  Offer the hunquapillar as a fully-lugged, Taiwan-built, slightly-more-expensive Clem.

[iamkeith]

... I mean think of this:  There was a long period of time during which Rivendell was the ONLY bike company who offered road and touring- type bikes with rational tire clearance and a proper fit.  The beautiful frame details and business ethic were simply icing on the cake.  Nowadays, you can't throw a stick without hitting some me-too brand's new  'all-road,' or 'gravel' or 'monster-cross' or 'adventure touring' model.  But try to find a decent, steel, mountain bike that is geared toward actual trail use and geometry, but without going over the tech trend precipice.   Surly krampus perhaps, but they fit like crap.  What else?  Nada.....  

Rant over.

[Joe Bernard]

The Clem was hatched by the younger folks at Riv. It was originally going to be a better-than-a-beater beater with flat paint that could be easily touched up with a rattle can. Of course Grant couldn't bring himself to sell an ugly bicycle, but the design and price ethos was met.

[Dave S]

Assuming this is the bike, you can see the cable guides in the photo Jonathan referenced above.

[George Rosselle]

As the owner of a first generation Toyo built Atlantis I am torn. I know the original was made to be a less expensive All Rounder, so the new plan sticks to the original brief. But just as the All Rounder copy became the Atlantis, maybe the new version should have a different name.

[Lum Gim Fong]

That diagatube pic shows a bike that is not fully lugged.

[Ryan Merrill]

I own several mountain bikes and it really is my preferred riding discipline, but I would be hard pressed to spend money on an mtb that is still using cantis or v-brakes.

Not that I couldn't be down with a nice rivendell mountain mixte, but the canti posts would not be in the "pro" column when deciding to buy it.

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 1:33:09 PM UTC-5, iamkeith wrote:

[dougP]

"If one was made by all three, could anyone tell a difference?"

I seriously doubt it.

 Rivendell always uses first quality fabricators, and they are all the same design with minor tweaks.  Rivendell sweats the details so any tweaks will be engineered by them.

dougP

[Tony DeFilippo]

I have to admit I'm now contemplating what I'd do if presented with a new 650B Atlantis shod with 2.35" Schwable semi-slicks otherwise built up like my Saluki with 42mm Compass BSP's...  Which one would I prefer?!?

The prospect of a more wallet friendly price and a 650B tire size in what I consider to be the quintessential Riv is pretty intriguing.  I wonder if it'll clear tubeless mounted 2.35" tires with full fenders?

I've been enjoying kid hauling duties on my wife's 52mm Clementine with 2.35" tires.  Not sure I see any downside to that size tire for my riding.

Tony

[Drw]

I'm pretty sure i could get 2.2's and fenders in my 650b atlantis without too much work. not sure about 2.35 though. 

[Eamon Nordquist]

I wonder why they decided to extend the chainstays - that Blug picture looks like it has Clem/Appaloosa length stays (maybe it's an illusion from 26" wheels?). Didn't the Atlantis already have 48cm chainstays? All the other changes seem like a good idea to me, but this just seems like turning the Atlantis into an Appaloosa.

I started a separate thread about super long chainstays and taking your bike on buses/trains.

Eamon

[Patrick Moore]

Curious about the chainstays too. Those of you who have ridden long (50 cm +?) and short (45 cm, as on my road customs?), what does the added length do to handling?

I have to say that by the standards of most bikes, even 45 is long, though am I right in thinking that this was "road normal" before the late '70s/early '80s flip to very short wheelbases? My 1973 Motobecane had ~45 cm stays, and while I didn't measure those on my '89 Falcon, the frame was notable for a very short font-center and a long rear.

But the best handling bikes I've owned have had stays well over what seems to be a standard 42 cm -- probably due to a combination of stays plus other design elements.

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[Belopsky]

jeeez these chainstays

https://78.media.tumblr.com/70eee77959f0dfa2cdd3d2cc9c9feb75/tumblr_p5wqvaobFh1qe3ngpo1_1280.jpg

[Eamon Nordquist]

The longest chainstays I have are about 45cm, in my 87 Trek Antelope, although the overall wheelbase is pretty long because of the 70 degree hta and 52mm fork rake. That bike is super stable. I bet 47-48cm would feel similar with 700c wheels. My 83 Trek 520 has 43cm chainstays and it’s a totally different animal. I remember test riding a 720 back in 1983, and it felt super stable.
I’m sure I could enjoy the extra long wheelbase, but it seems like there are downsides - especially for an “all rounder”.

[Joe Bernard]

You could probably add/substract $800 from a dozen bike company's models to come up with the statement "it's this bike but a different name, a few different details and a different price." There's only so many ways to join tubes to two wheels.

[Joe Bernard]

Where the similar bike/different price issue becomes sticky is New Atlantis vs. Appaloosa. We're talking $2-300 and a different fork crown. I don't see both frames coexisting for long.

[Drw]

I think making the Atlantis that long is a mistake. It’s an iconic bike, that already has objectively long stays, and there are other long models. I see no reason for this. Cheaper atlantis is great, but at what point is an Atlantis not an Atlantis.

[Jonathan D.]

I’ll be curious to see how an Appaloosa and Atlantis differ. The new Atlantis seems similar. I expect the Appaloosa will probably be canceled. Regardless of whether it’s a Joe or Atlantis, both are great bikes.

[Sky Coulter]

Ya, I think the appaloosas are great, but i don’t see how the two models would be distinguished enough to justify keeping both.

Sky in new west

> On Mar 20, 2018, at 7:40 PM, Jonathan D. <jdone...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’ll be curious to see how an Appaloosa and Atlantis differ. The new Atlantis seems similar. I expect the Appaloosa will probably be canceled. Regardless of whether it’s a Joe or Atlantis, both are great bikes.
>

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[nash...@gmail.com]

I too am curious about these seemingly super long stays. Can you ever pop even a small wheelie?? All fpr comfort and stability but that looks like an awfully long bike?

[Christopher Murray]

I think over the last few years and especially over the last year there has been a “the Taiwan bikes are just as good as the U.S. bikes” vibe from Grant/ Riv. The Taiwanese builder has come a long way from the pre-Rivendell days and the Bleriot don’t-look-too-closely-at-the-paint days.

I love Waterford but does it really make sense for them to keep making the Atlantis?

Chris

[Stuart Lovinggood]

As a former Appaloosa owner, I'm a little disappointed to see the extra-long chainstays and 6° TT come to the Atlantis. Although the Joe is billed as an "all-arounder," IME that is quite a subjective term. I found climbing unwieldy without a sizable front load (especially on dirt), and with the long top tube, drop bars are not as feasible for some riders using Riv's suggested sizing (myself included). I would consider the existing Atlantis geo to be more all-rounder, a balance of traditional stack and reach numbers with the mid-length chainstays. 

[Joe Bernard]

It does not make sense to keep doing the MUSA Atlantis, at least not under that name. Maybe they can create an All Rounder decal for it.

[Drw]

I’ve owned a Sam, Clem, 2 atlanti, hunq and a Rosco mixte. None have felt remotely unstable and the Clem doesn’t feel noticeably more stable than any of the other models. I truly don’t understand this push for the super long stays.

[Joe Bernard]

Two reasons I can think of: 1. Compliance over bumps because you're less "on top" of the rear wheel. 2. Rivs are designed at the bottom of a crazy fast/steep mountain; the long wheelbase may be more stable sailing down that road.

[Belopsky]

I think what Joe says is what some (including me) forget/do not realize. Grant designs his bikes for a certain terrain and it does not make sense for all.

As far as the new Atlantis - I don't like it but also will not be buying one so does my opinion matter? No.

I'm also not a fan of 6d TT but understand why they're doing it.

I still grumble that Waterford/Gunnar would not build me a horizontal top tube custom because they legally (?) couldn't do a frame where the standover height had to be PBH-1.5cm at the maximum...

[Ryan Merrill]

Stuart, your comments regarding the ride of the Appaloosa are disconcerting since I have one coming to the house today. I hope I get along with it, as this will be my first Rivendell with the long chainstays. I never thought the Rivs I've owned were bad riding bikes and never twitchy...I do hope the long chainstays don't make them handle like barges.

[Bill Lindsay]

Nobody has latched onto nor commenced to wring hands over the truly divisive design element: the NEW downtube decal.

A sharp observer on Instagram noticed that the new downtube decal has boat anchors down the under side of the downtube, which I think is sensational. It ties in with the nautical theme AND thumbs noses at the whiners who say all Rivs are ‘boat anchors’.

Hopefully the downtube decal simply adds convenience for differentiating Waterford and Toyo bikes from Maxway bikes

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca.

[Leslie]

One of the details I like is the trout on the top of the downtube decal...  (that's not always been there on the other Atlanti, has it?)

[Leslie]

I've run 2.3 Neomotos on my 650b Bomba, then added fenders with clearance to spare, but couldn't have a kickstand on there w/ tires that wide....

I've gone down in size (and non-knobbies since I wanted the fenders on there).  

At the time I was thinking that the Bomba was not far from an Atlantis, but, maybe my clearance really is that much more...

[Grant @ Rivendell]

A lot of the answers to most of the questions might be answered in the catalogue coming up in about 3 wks, and I don't want to deflate it before it goes to print (in 2 weeks), so... we might not answer all of the questions here before then or on BLUG-BLAHG. We're all way loose-lipped in person--the stuff just tumbles out of the voice box like mad when it's face-to-face for some reason. Also, some reasons or answers are hard to sum up in a sentence or two without seeming to reflect some kind of emotion that --- well, let me just say the don't always play well in sentences, sorry to be so vague with that, and we're careful about what we say and how we say anything if it can't be ... arghh, having a hard time with it now. It feels like I'm turning it into a puzzle, which isn't my intention. All of the changes -- and there aren't THAT many, trust me -- are for good reasons, including, from my pov, bike improvements. The Atlantis is still Russian green, I can say that.
Thank you all for your support, enthusiasm, patience, knowledge, opinions, trust, help...

[phil k]

Thanks for chiming in, I can't wait to hear more about it!

I really like the details so far!

[Bob B]

With the longer cstays and more tt slope, does anyone know what is different btwn the new Atlantis and the Appaloosa? Besides some features like pump pegs etc... different fork and tubing I suppose?

[Andy Beichler]

What interests me is difference in top tube length. I have looked and looked at the Appaloosa (and Clem) but have not pulled the trigger because of the top tube length.  I want a bike that I can easily put drop bars on and the Atlantis fits the bill for me, there.  Also, I have always wanted an Atlantis. I still kick myself for not getting one way back when they were about $700 (or was that $900).

   

[Eric Karnes]

I agree. It seems that Riv's bikes are moving in a direction that coincides less and less with my own bike needs and preferences. The significantly longer top tubes make it almost impossible for my t-rex-like arms to utilize multiple positions even on very swept-back bars (drops are impossible at any height). And the super-long chainstays are really hard for city-dwellers who have to cart their bike up and down steep and narrow stairs on a regular basis. 

Of course, these are simply my own personal needs and preferences. Grant and Co. should absolutely evolve their offerings in directions that they believe in. This may not jive with what I'm looking for and that's totally reasonable. For everyone who isn't thrilled with the new designs, there is likely someone who it. And who am I to tell someone like Grant to how to design a bike? But from a strictly selfish perspective, I do hope that they keep some offerings (such as the Sam and the MUSA frames) in the more 'traditional' riv model.

Eric

[Ryan Merrill]

I have a feeling the stability offered by the long chainstays on the Appaloosa is going to be pretty nice for the manner in which I'm going to ride it. The gravel roads I'm going to take it on could use a little bit more stability. I don't know if the bike will fit on my Kuat rack though...got to find out about that. I suspect not, so it will be something I have to remedy.

I could see how carrying around a rather long bike could get to be a burden in an urban setting. Luckily, I don't live in an urban setting and instead am in the country. We'll see.

[Braxton Colagross]

The blug post points out that the old geometry is still available. But at the one-off USA-made price with the corresponding wait time.

[lconley]

I have long arms/torso and short legs so I have Nitto lugged setback seat posts and 100+mm stems and dropped bars on several of my Rivs. I love long top tubes. I also live in a one story house and don't use mass transit. I must admit that the bikes are on the edge of not fitting inside the Honda Element without taking off a front wheel. What was that Rick Nelson line - "...can't please everyone so might as well please yourself..." or something close to that? I don't know if that is a good business model or not, but the long Rivs do work for me. I tend to think that my body type is less common than the long leg short torso type. There are always used bikes if you are patient.

Laing

Cocoa FL

[dougP]

And of course now for The Big Question:

When? 

Any schedule for delivery of the first batch?  Potential buyers need to plan ahead.

dougP

[Grant Petersen]

I'm with Ryan. We've ridden a lot of bikes, lots of variations, and we live surrounded by roads and trails no more than 15 minutes by bike away. It's not DP-Rocky Mtn style, but as BL and JW and other locals will attest, it's hard to beat. More important, we ride them. I admittedly don't have the challenges of fitting bikes into elevators or navigating 3-floor walkups, and I'm sympathetic to those who do, but that's what Bromptons are for.

Bikes tend to grow taller faster than they grow longer, and tall people end up like circus bears on tiny bikes. That's an exagerration, but the point is, they sit high on a short bike, with their butt too close to the rear hub. It's a wacky weight distribution, but it's tolerable and you can get used to it, but it's-- just not right. Also, shorter bikes tend to be jumpy, and benefit from longer wheelbases, and the best way to lengthen them is in back. A longer front-center certainly helps, too, but at some point it rules out drop bars.

That's a bad thing if you're locked in to them, but also, the length of the top tube alone doesn't tell you all you need to know about how much you have to lean and far you have to reach to grab the bars. It depends so much on bar height..and seat tube angle affects it, and have you ever thought about convergence and divergence as it relates to head and seat tube angles and bar and saddle height? We do that. In some ways it's ridiculous, but the same ridiculous thinking goes into all of the dimensions, including chainstay length.

For a steep hairy descent, the best bike has a monster front-center dimension--too long for school, for sure---and a longer chainstay, too. You might think (logically, this is good thinking) that a shorter chainstay provides more traction up hills and makes it easier to weight the rear wheel on steep downhills. There are other considerations more important (imo), though. A shorter bike (chainstay and front-center) wheelies and endos sooner. Sweepy back'd Boscos make it easy to push the front wheel way ahead and stop an endo, and a long front center and chainstay fight the leverage that lead to one wheel or the other lifting off the ground.

Those are radical circumstance, but on even a flat smooth road, length adds a quality to the ride that can't be had without it. I'm sure somebody reading this has a 60cm Cheviot. Tell the group how luscious it feels. If you haven't ridden a bike like that, it's hard to swallow, and even if you have, it's hard to explain (so, "luscious" is how I do it). The bike's no slower for it, but you don't have to be on high alert.

We're not moving away from anything valuable, and an extra inch or two or three of chaintay is still a small percentage of the total. It just seems more when you convert inches to centimeters and focus on the tire-to-seat tube gap. I seriously, honestly believe that our current bikes ride even better than the older ones--which have always been and still are great-riding bikes.  Changes are always tough, we will lose people, it's normal to question why or attribute it to some brain-change or something, but the changes that you see are evolutionary and in a good direction, I think.

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[Jeremy Till]

Not a 60cm Cheviot, it's a 59cm Clem in my case, but I can attest to its lusciousness, especially off-road.  It is very confidence inspiring downhill, and is the best bike I've ever ridden at climbing steep hills.  

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[Joe Bernard]

I rode recumbents for a few years. All Rivs seem short to me ;-)

[dougP]

This extensive discussion of chainstay length got me to thinking:  how much difference are we really talking?  Or is the big gap in the photo just freaking people out?  So I dug out my old Atlantis flyer from before I bought mine in '03.  Here's some chainstay length figures from the original design (I presume) and from current web posting:

early 2000s:

56 cm (26" wheels):  44 cm
58 cm (700c)         :  45.5 cm

current (May 2017 chart)

56 cm (650B)  :  47.5 cm
56 cm (26")         46 cm
58 cm (700c)       47 cm

Over time, the chainstays have grown somewhat but nothing radical.  Of course, the large gap and Riv's general evolution to longer chainstays suggests something even longer, but until geo charts are published, we can only speculate. 

To put the extra length into perspective, I measured the wheelbase of my 58 cm / 700c bike at +/-107 cm.  From original to current, the 58 cm chainstays have grown 1.5 cm, extending the wheelbase approx 1.4%.  Going out on a limb here but I'll guess that's an extremely subtle change, at best. 

Now of course the next question is how the further extension of chainstays on the MIT version will impact ride, handling, etc.  The announcement says "....made it better here and there...." and Grant's use of the term "...penny...." on various measurements suggests pretty subtle and incremental changes.  Likely they've learned a lot from their trend toward longer wheelbases as they've been at it for a few years now.  Remember the Mystery Bike project?  And now the production bikes designed as LWB models?  The Atlantis is such an icon that my guess is they were pretty darn conservative and didn't do anything that have comprised the performance. 

You gotta trust somebody.  I'll bet on Grant & the elves of Walnut Creek.

dougP

On Monday, March 19, 2018 at 3:10:48 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

The BLUG today announced an upcoming pre-sale for a less expensive Atlantis.  No doubt they will be made in Taiwan.  The pricing hint is "a tad more than an Appaloosa".  Is it good that Rivendell is evolving?  I say yes.  Is it a little sad that the Atlantis is changing?  I say sure, a little.  I'd bet a dollar that some of their recent cashflow worries came from the financials around this change.  Made to order frames are expensive but cost you nothing until somebody wants to buy one.  Taiwan builds have to be done in expensive pre-paid runs, which require a bunch of cash on hand. 

The curved double TT of the biggest size was on instagram I think. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[iamkeith]

It was actually Dave who used (qoined - no pun intended) the "penny difference" analogy.

[James Warren]

Rivs are like that. I climb great on mine too. But I have those short racey Rivs with 46 cm and 45.5 cm stays.

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[dougP]

Thanks for the correction to my mistaken attribution.  I knew I'd seen it in the current Atlantis discussion & failed to fact check.  Dave deserves credit for devising such a clever & descriptive unit of measure. 

dougP

[Jonathan D.]

I can’t decide what I think of the long chain stays. I get used to riding my Joe carrying a heavy load and forget that without a lot of weight it feels as fast as my Sam. The long chain stays do change the ride feel. I like Grant’s description but the image that I always arrive at is a motor boat. It kinda floats like on water but still responds quickly. I don’t have that feeling on the Sam. Some of the differences could be the build which has a heavy rack, burly wheels, etc. The bike fits on my car rack and the Portland Bus rack.

The new Atlantis looks great but I also fail to see much difference between that Joe and Atlantis, unless the Atlantis is made for drop bars. Perhaps the Joe is more of the Hunqapilar now.

[Max S]

*planing* ???  8-0 

... although I do seriously wonder whether the relatively longer chainstays contribute to frame flex in a way that effectively compensates for the relatively heavier gauge tubing ... 

[Tim O. (Portland, OR)]

I can say that the Appaloosa long chainstays fell incredibly smooth for rough gravel decents. Although, I haven't had a chance to directly compare with an Atlantis in those same conditions. Issac (nwbirdman) has an Atlantis here in PDX that's my exact size, so maybe we can do some thorough testing and report back.

Cheers,
Tim

[Tony DeFilippo]

I'm not to worried by the extra length, the impingement on space for storage and car stage transportation is a pain but I'm already getting that from my wife's Clementine (anyone have the numbers for cs/wheelbase?) and my Jones Plus (48.3cm Chainstays, 1175cm wheelbase).  My Saluki, and particularly my XO3 seen like BMX bikes in comparison (from a overall length perspective).  Jeff Jones's blog has some similar and interesting reflections on the benefits of longer bikes leading up to his release of the original Jones Plus.

Both of those bikes handle great for me including/especially off-road.  Looking at the numbers I was amused that the Appaloosa has even longer stays than the Jones though.

I can't wait to see the 2018 catalog!

[masmojo]

I excited until I saw the photo on the Blug; glad I already have an older Atlantis. I was thinking an upgrade was in order until I saw the super long chainstays. :-(
I have a 52 Clementine & the long stays are the only thing I dislike about it.
Gonna have to pass on this.

[Brian Campbell]

I wonder if there will a change in the overall model  line up to take into account another all rounder/touring type bike? It seems that there is quite a bit of overlap in the current offerings. I hope these changes serve Riv well going forward.

[Ryan Merrill]

Thanks for chiming in, Grant. I'm glad to hear that y'all are riding these bikes on trails much like I will be riding the Appaloosa on; the gravel roads around me present some good riding but have steep hills with deep gravel. I do think a longer bike with bigger tires is going to be a huge improvement over my cyclocross bike.

Watching the evolution of Rivendell bikes has been fun for me and it is time to try out one of the newer designs. Bike evolution is something I've witnessed in the MTB world firsthand. In that world, the builders are feverishly working at making the chainstays as short as they can and the top tube measurement as long as they can (probably because going downhill really, really fast through berms and rock gardens is helped by that kind of geometry). I can tell you from my experience owning several recent Mtbs and living through the evolution, the geometry changes are making the bikes hard to get up a steep hill making the rider fight to keep the front wheel down and tracking correctly while keeping forward momentum. Now, they are still a lot of fun for bombing down twisty singletrack, popping wheelies, and generally acting like a kid who has had too much sugar but it's almost a one trick pony.

The new Atlantis looks good!  I'm really looking forward to getting my Appaloosa built up and riding it.

On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 3:18:34 PM UTC-5, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:

I'm with Ryan. We've ridden a lot of bikes, lots of variations, and we live surrounded by roads and trails no more than 15 minutes by bike away. It's not DP-Rocky Mtn style, but as BL and JW and other locals will attest, it's hard to beat. More important, we ride them.

 

[Joe Bernard]

Ryan: I know nothing about modern mountain bikes and am mystified by the geometry changes you've spelled out. Going down hill is the easy part; who wants a bicycle that's harder to ride up hill??

[Mark Anderson]

I think the question of whether it is possible to pop a wheelie on bikes with long chain stays indirectly brings up an important, but often ignored point in these chain stay length discussions.  People---and bikes---come in different sizes, but chain stays vary by a much smaller proportional amount with the minimum length set by wheel size and the maximum traditionally set by tubing manufacturers at just a coupla-few centimeters longer than the minimum.  The effects of using Cheviot/Clem/Joe-length stays is likely to be quite different for small vs. large bike/rider combinations.

I, for example, am tallish (6'2", 183cm), heavy (260 lbs, 118 kg) and reasonably strong.  At my end of the scale, the problem is not that I cann pop a wheelie when I want to, the problem is that I pop accidental little wheelies all the time when starting or pedaling out of the saddle.  I can still easily wheelie* a Cheviot when I want to, but I like that it pretty much only happens when I want it to. These so-called super-long chain stays may just be bringing me closer to what my shorter brethren and sistren think of as a bike with normal handling.  That said, I cannot speak to the way longer stays would affect handling on smaller bikes, but taking a gander at the geometry table suggests that chain stay length varies more proportionally with frame size on the long-stay models than on the older designs---e.g., Hillbornes all have 44.5 or 45.5 cm stays, Appaloosas vary by twice that and Cheviot and Clem stays range over 9 or 10 cm.

-- 

Mark Anderson in Chicago

* Pop a wheelie.  Properly riding a wheelie down the street is a different matter, but that's really more about the rider than the bike in my case.

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 9:59:56 PM UTC-5, nash...@gmail.com wrote:

I too am curious about these seemingly super long stays.  Can you ever pop even a small wheelie??  All fpr comfort and stability but that looks like an awfully long bike?

[nash...@gmail.com]

Your point is very interesting. I had never thought of it that way. I am 5'10" and rarely inadvertently wheelie. But it is important on the trails I normally ride (east bay hills) to be able to raise the front wheel from time to time over obstacles, especially while climbing. Just a little bit. I guess its different for everyone and every riding terrain.

[Grant Petersen]

It's like Mark said--you can wheelie, but the bike makes you have to try, which is good. I regularly ride my Chev and 59 Clem on the skinniest, twistiest, slightly illegal singletrack with a 180 turn and can still make it. The whole idea is to improve the ride, to discourage endos and wheelies, and add nice stability to any descent, road or trail. The LWB bikes have an edge, but they don't feel the least funky.

On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 10:18 AM, <nash...@gmail.com> wrote:

Your point is very interesting.  I had never thought of it that way.  I am 5'10" and rarely inadvertently wheelie.  But it is important on the trails I normally ride (east bay hills) to be able to raise the front wheel from time to time over obstacles, especially while climbing.  Just a little bit. I guess its different for everyone and every riding terrain.

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[iamkeith]

So everybody realizes that the picture on the Blug is of a 26" wheel bike, and that it exaggerates the appearance of chainstay length, right?

On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 10:39:15 AM UTC-6, Joe Bernard wrote:

Ryan: I know nothing about modern mountain bikes and am mystified by the geometry changes you've spelled out. Going down hill is the easy part; who wants a bicycle that's harder to ride up hill??

You might just have to try it to understand Joe,  but modern mountain bike geometry really is a revelation.  It also makes you go 'duh - why did it take so long to figure this out.'   To get a glimpse of understanding, all you really need to do is think back to when NORBA geometry was the norm, with its steep headtubes, short top tubes, low front ends, long stems and narrow handlebars.   Those were basically road bikes with high bottom brackets, and you were half-way to doing an endo before you even pointed downhill or hit an obstacle.  Going downhill wasn't fun at all - even at rational speeds.  

There's always a compromise in which uphill or downhill ability is improved at the expense of the other, but the balance point is getting figured out better than ever.  I do like the long chainstays, within reason, for the way they help climbing.  But there's a limited market of consumers who feel that way.  Vassago, Jones and Rivendell are about the only ones i know of who have put a lot of thought into it, questioned the short- chainstay paradigm, and prioritized longer ones.   Most others are using steep seat tube angles and the assumption that the rider won't ever be seated UNLESS they are climbing.  

On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 11:03:56 AM UTC-6, Mark Anderson wrote:

I think the question of whether it is possible to pop a wheelie on bikes with long chain stays indirectly brings up an important, but often ignored point in these chain stay length discussions.  People---and bikes---come in different sizes, but chain stays vary by a much smaller proportional amount with the minimum length set by wheel size and the maximum traditionally set by tubing manufacturers at just a coupla-few centimeters longer than the minimum.  ...The effects of using Cheviot/Clem/Joe-length stays is likely to be quite different for small vs. large bike/rider combinations.....  These so-called super-long chain stays may just be bringing me closer to what my shorter brethren and sistren think of as a bike with normal handling.  

Yup!  Still amazes me that Rivendell is the ONLY one who is thinking about 'proportional" chanistays in their designs.

 

I, for example, am tallish (6'2", 183cm), heavy (260 lbs, 118 kg) and reasonably strong.  At my end of the scale, the problem is not that I cann pop a wheelie when I want to, the problem is that I pop accidental little wheelies all the time when starting or pedaling out of the saddle.  I can still easily wheelie* a Cheviot when I want to, but I like that it pretty much only happens when I want it to. 

That's interesting.  I'm 6'-2" and can barely lift the front end of my Clem to save my life.  As much as I like the long stays for the climbing and smooth ride, even I would say that they're a bit on the ridiculous side.    Wheelies aren't important to trail riding, but being able to pop the front over rocks and logs is critical.   Again, even at rational speeds.

But this Atlantis will be neither as long as the Clem, nor a trail bike.  So i don't get the fretting.  I just don't see a downside to longer stays.   It also offers some variety to other bikes, which helps rationalize buying a bike that you/I may or may not really need.  It's the little cosmetic details that I'm fretting about.

[Hugh Smitham]

Well put Tony.

It has me intrigued.

hugh

On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 3:28:48 PM UTC-7, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

I have to admit I'm now contemplating what I'd do if presented with a new 650B Atlantis shod with 2.35" Schwable semi-slicks otherwise built up like my Saluki with 42mm Compass BSP's...  Which one would I prefer?!?

The prospect of a more wallet friendly price and a 650B tire size in what I consider to be the quintessential Riv is pretty intriguing.  I wonder if it'll clear tubeless mounted 2.35" tires with full fenders?

I've been enjoying kid hauling duties on my wife's 52mm Clementine with 2.35" tires.  Not sure I see any downside to that size tire for my riding.

Tony

[iamkeith]

Oops.  I was typing while Grant was responding.  i don't think I contradicted him.

So here are some semi-related questions that I'm thinking about with the the backdrop of today's news over the newly escalating trade war:

-  Do tariffs and sanctions on China affect Taiwan as well?  Or are they still independent in that regard?  Just curious.

-  How is it possible that manufacturing costs of this new Atlantis are reduced when it now involves three distinct fabrication methods:  sweat brazing, tig, and fillet brazing and tig welding?!  Again, just curious.  For the type of design I do for a living (architecture / industrial), I'm in the habit of trying to limit the number trades.

[Dave Johnston]

I hate when Riv skips the down tube shifter braze-ons and replaces them with stops. Unlike the Joe the new Atlantis should be more compatible with drop bars (shorter Top Tube) and whatever shifters you might want to use. (Downtube, bar-end, brifters, indexing or not). 

Riv has been pushing hard for friction and upright bars and stops are fine for that, but it doesn't mean all Riv owners want to run that. Even Analog (one of there dealers) prefers drops, when run high and close.

If you really want simple, cheap and "only shift when you absolutely need to" shifting then friction downtubers are the way to go! (and I really mean that in a good Rivish way)

-Dave J

[John Phillips]

Grant wrote,

"We've ridden a lot of bikes, lots of variations, and we live surrounded by roads and trails no more than 15 minutes by bike away. It's not DP-Rocky Mtn style, but as BL and JW and other locals will attest, it's hard to beat. More important, we ride them. I admittedly don't have the challenges of fitting bikes into elevators or navigating 3-floor walkups, and I'm sympathetic to those who do, but that's what Bromptons are for."

   So...the Atlantis is changing from a touring bike to a Mt. Diablo trail/fire road model for East Bay, non-multi-modal commuting, ranch home owners? To me this is clear as mud, and it seems like a very small demographic to be aiming at.

[Grant Petersen]

The point which I flopped in making is that a bike that "performs" at the fringes can certainly handle the middle, but not necessarily the other way around. I should have been more clear.

Grant

[Eamon Nordquist]

That's kind of how I see it too, John. I'm all for them making the bike you describe (and Riv makes several of them now), but this really does change the Atlantis in significant ways. I totally missed the lack of downtube shifter braze-ons too.

I think the additional top tube slope, fillet brazed sections, and Taiwan production are all good ideas, but I personally don't get the others. It's not like the Atlantis had what anyone would consider short chainstays.

Oh well, at least the old version will still be available from Waterford, if the wait times ever improve. Still, it seems like a missed opportunity to reduce the price of what was thought of as their flagship bike, as they've really turned it into a different one so similar to others they already make.

Eamon

[Deacon Patrick]

Grant said: “The point which I flopped in making is that a bike that "performs" at the fringes can certainly handle the middle, but not necessarily the other way around. I should have been more clear.”

I’m not sure this helped clarify though, Grant. It made me sardonically think: “I look forward to the next Atlantis iteration, incorporating fringe downhill MTB geometry, disk brakes, body armor, and full suspension.” Grin.

Ducking with abandon,
Patrick

[Tim Butterfield]

On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Grant Petersen <gran...@gmail.com> wrote:

The point which I flopped in making is that a bike that "performs" at the fringes can certainly handle the middle, but not necessarily the other way around. I should have been more clear.

Hmmm.  I'm not sure this is more clear.  It seems kind of like saying that a formula 1 car, which does great at the fringe, would still make a good daily driver.  Even narrowing down the extreme a bit, it might be a general rule that a car with a harder suspension for the track sacrifices ride comfort on the street.  Often, those that try to do both are good at neither.  As another example, motorsailer boats are usually neither good sailboats nor good motorboats.  They sacrifice on both ends to accommodate that stretch of functionality.  Of course, maybe this is possible with bikes, but not these other examples.  Or, maybe the particular set of functionality better allows for that spread of coverage.  Of course, I yield to your expertise that it will perform as intended.  I'm just not yet sure what that intention is.  I might need to wait for the catalog to find out.

Tim 

[Ryan Merrill]

The one thing Rivs are are versatile machines and I don't think the new Atlantis can be pigeon holed like that. The original Atlantis was a touring bike, but how many people turned it into a trail bike?  That's the way I had mine set up and I never once toured on it. Worked pretty well on the trails.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/22/2018 04:13 PM, Grant Petersen wrote:

The point which I flopped in making is that a bike that "performs" at the fringes can certainly handle the middle, but not necessarily the other way around. I should have been more clear.

Performs great at the fringe, but on the next 50 miler out in the country...?

[Joe Bernard]

I think we might want to wait 'til someone's ridden the new Atlantis before we completely lose our freaking minds!!! I've owned: Romulus, Bleriot, AHH, Rambouillet, Saluki, Appaloosa, a couple Clems (one H, one L), and now a Cheviot. They all rode great, and even the very roadish Romulus handled China Camp's (Marin County, CA.) singletrack quite well.

[Tim Butterfield]

Steve,

That fat bike is a good example of what I was trying to say.  I suspect this may be a difference of _optimized_ for the fringe versus just _passable_ at the fringe.  Expanding into the passable scope may not sacrifice the other end of the range as much as the optimized scope.  But, the more you move from passable to optimized at one end, the greater the sacrifice at the other.

Tim