Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[John W]

Hello folks,

I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes.

I'm 6' tall with an 85PBH (say, 86.25 PBH with shoes.) Saddle height ~75cm, a Brooks B17 which runs about 6cm tall.

Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58. I'll ride on pavement and trails. Less so, gnarly track. And I'll set up drop bars about 1cm lower than my saddle. 

My concerns are:

— will I have enough exposed stem above the headset and cable hanger in front?

— will the bike handle oddly with just ~2cm of exposed stem?

— am I setting myself up for the inability to use taller upright bars in the future?

I cribbed this photo from a fellow with a shorter saddle height than me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/4354827488/in/pool-hillborne/

The 55 is the safe bet, while the 58 looks doable. 

I'm cautious of getting a bike that's too small for me. Generally speaking, I'm a 56cm on Surly road frames and I don't feel stretched out on them.

What say you? 55 or 58?

Separately, looking at the geo charts on Riv's site, the Stack and Reach measurements on the Sam Hillbornes look off to me, but perhaps I'm not correctly parsing the effect of the 71.5 STA.

Apologies for the naval gazing email. Any input would be appreciated.

John in NYC

[Belopsky]

What looks off to you about the stack and reach? The Sam Hillborne has a long reach. Look at it compared to the other bikes in the range.

[Belopsky]

Also, since you're in NYC, call up 718cyclery and see if they have any in stock to try out

[eflayer]

I am 5'11 and I ride the biggest bikes of any one my height that I know. I think my body proportions are not really abnormal in any way. I can ride a 59 or 60 top tube and still have about an 110 mm stem. I have never ridden anything with a 61 top tube as in a 60 Sam. I prefer as much headtube as I can get to get the bars even or a bit higher than my saddle and to avoid upjutting stems. At 6' you may have longer arms and more top tube may be just right for you.

[Lum Gim Fong]

Riv will set up stem height and saddle on one of theirs to your measurements and send a pic to you so you can see what it looks like if you ask.

I had a 52 blue sam with 71 SH.
Lowest I coukd get bars was 1.3cm below saddle. So beware going too big.
Call riv and they will set it up and email you pics.

[eflayer]

I apologize if my posting was confusing. Not sure what the current Sam geo actually is since it is not easily found on the Riv website.

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 11:38:19 PM UTC-8, John W wrote:

[Belopsky]

From the sounds of this, you have shorter legs? What is your PBH

[Carla Waugh]

I ride a 55cm and I’m 5’9” and It’s fine.

[Bill Lindsay]

I’d say 55, but I’d also say: make a decision, enjoy yourself, and if you change your mind down the road, do something else.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[Max S]

Bill Lindsay wrote:
“...make a decision, enjoy yourself, and if you change your mind down the road, do something else.”

Words to live by!

[tc]

I'd say 58, esp. if you're gonna mostly ride pavement or packed trails.

My wife rides her 58 Sam with a 74.9 saddle height which exposes about 4" of seatpost.  She's 5'-9.5" and is mostly legs, with a PBH of 87.5, so her reach isn't as long as yours (...and her actual saddle height is lower than PBH - 11).  Her albatross bars are up high and she loves it.  It's a road/paved greenway bike for her; she has an Anthem for offroading.

I'm 6' - 0.5" tall with a PBH of 90.5.  Actual saddle height is 78.7 (...also less than PBH - 11).  I have a Noodle-equipped 58 Sam and love it.  I have a a hair less than 5" of seatpost showing and about 4" of stem showing, but the bars are a tad higher than the saddle because of the great geo of the Sam.

I know it's frustrating when you think you're in between sizes!

Tom

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 2:38:19 AM UTC-5, John W wrote:

Hello folks,

I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes....

[Marc Irwin]

I'm 5'11"and and have an 84 PBH. I ride 56 Hillborne and 54 Hunqapillar. They are both incredibly comfortable.

Marc

[Belopsky]

I'm 5'7 and 83PBH and a 55/56 SH was too big for drops but fine w pullback bars or a short stem and drops but didnt like the sloping top tube look so sold

[Edwin W]

I am a hair over 6'0 with a PBH of 90cm and had a 60cm Sam that fit very well. I think if I were getting one now I would be battleing between 58 and 62. My first instinct was to say "58," but the best bet is to talk it through with Riv. 

Now on a 58 Joe,

Edwin

[Dave Small]

Hi John,

My experience may help you decide, but to cut to the chase:  I'd recommend not going outside Riv's PBH recommendations, and in fact I don't want to go even to the edge of their recommended range.  

In 2012 I bought a green 60cm first-run Sam.  I worked with a dealer in Ohio and test-rode a 56cm and a 60cm.  I could have bought either one, but at the time I was new to Riv and went with the larger size in part to test their opinion that "most people buy too small" and their advice that, when in doubt, go bigger.  I'm 6' 2" with a PBH of 88 cm, which was within the recommended range of the 56cm and the 60cm frame sizes, but was at the top of the former and the bottom of the latter.  

I could never love that Sam.  It was okay, but always felt a little too big, even after riding it enough that I'd have acclimated if the issue was just that it wasn't what I was used to.  I questioned whether it was the size, the specific model, or (gads!) a fallacy of the whole Riv philosophy, since all were new to me at the time.  I wanted to love it, and I tried---I really did!---but I just never felt it the way I wanted to or expected to.  

Then, a couple of years ago I bought a used 58cm Homer Hilsen in large part to give Riv another chance because what they espouse still resonated with me, and I suspected that the size was the problem, not the model or the company's design philosophy.  I loved the Hilsen immediately, and after my first ride told my wife that if I were forced to reduce to N=1, that the Hilsen was a strong candidate to be that one.  

With that renewed confidence in Riv, a couple of years ago I bought a 58cm Sam when they became available with a single top tube in that size, and loved it immediately.  The differences in "feel" between that and the 60cm Sam were subtle but real, and took me over the hump from "okay" to "love."  Last fall I bought a 58cm canti-Sam during their presale and will transfer everything from the 60cm first-run Sam (which had cantis) to the new one and then sell the green 60cm frame.  

Based on my experience with Sams, I want to be solidly in the middle of Riv's PBH range-recommendation.  Not at the edge, and certainly not outside it.  I was at the bottom of the range for the 60cm Sam, while you're 2 cm below the bottom edge of the range.  You say you're concerned about getting a bike that's too small for you, but you should also be concerned about getting a bike that's too big for you; neither one will fit well.  

My last comment:  You say "Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58" and that the 58 "looks doable," but that's the kind of language I'd expect if someone were giving you a 58cm Sam free of charge and you were wondering if it would work at all.  You have a choice, so why not go for the optimal size?  I can ride my 60cm Sam, and it's quite "doable," but it's not optimal and I want optimal if I can get it.  

Dave 

[lconley]

I am 6' tall with a 83.5 PBH - short legs, loooong torso. I ride a 56cm Sam (last generation - Double TT) it is too "big" for me according to Riv's sizing recommendations, But I need to put the seat back all the way on the post and use a 100 cm stem with drops. Because my body proportions are several standard deviations from the norm, I have almost always ridden a bike that is too "big" for me. Years ago when I bought a LeMond Buenos Aires, the shop measured my pubic bone height and tried to put me on a 54 cm frame. It was comically undersized, even the salesman agreed. I ride what is comfortable to ride, not what I can comfortably straddle when I stop.

You are in a tough spot, I think the 55 would be ideal for me, but you are in between the two sizes. If you are going drops I would say 58, upright - 55. 

 

 

Laing

Cocoa, FL

[Jonathan D.]

I am an 85pbh but six foot. I don’t have long legs. I stood over a 58 at Rivelo this weekend after talking with you. It could work but felt big and not much stand over room. I would think a 55 would be great with drops and if you can find a 56 if you run Albatross. I would go smaller. As Bill says buy one and enjoy and I am sure you can always sell and try a different size if that doesn’t work.

[Jeremy Till]

I'd say go with the 55.  For a number of reasons: 

-Rivendell knows the fit of their bikes pretty well, and they generally err on the side of larger frame sizes, so if they're telling you to go for a smaller frame, chances are that's probably going to be big enough for you. 

-You are going for a drop bar setup with the bars just below the saddle, which again, puts you on in the camp of running relatively low bars in Rivendell terms.  In my mind, this is another point in favor of going for a smaller frame.  I think there's a real chance you wouldn't be able to get the bars low enough on the larger frame.  

-Numerous folks on here have reported sizing up on the Sam but later coming to the conclusion that it is too big for them.  

When you say, "I know I could ride a 58cm," what leads you to that conclusion?  Have you test ridden a 58cm Sam?  Or is it from riding other 58cm road bikes?  You mention riding a 56cm Surly later in the post.  Remember that the up-sloping top tube on the Sam makes it fit larger than its measured seat tube size, so a 55cm Sam probably would fit the same as a 58 or 59cm Surly or other road bike with a level top tube, just with more exposed seatpost.  

Even after you take this into account, there are other more subtle features of a Rivendell that increase bar height: all of their upper head tube lugs feature a headtube extension above the top tube, and they tend to leave their forks a little on the long side, so the top nut of the headset is pretty high.  So there's a lot of extra bar height built into that 55cm Sam already over your 56 Surly.

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 11:38:19 PM UTC-8, John W wrote:

[Surlyprof]

I am 5’11” with an 85 pbh and ride a 56. I use an albastache bar with an 8cm stem or an albatross bar with an 11. Mine is the year they shortened the top tube from 59 (green, first run) to 57.5 if I remember correctly and it fits great. I was initially concerned about the standover height because it got very close when using 45 Smart Sam tires. For that reason I’d be concerned about the 58. On the chance that you might want to max out you tire size, the higher standover might be a problem. Given your proportions, you may have to go to a longer stem but that would depend partially on your arm length, too.

Good luck. Sam’s a great bike.

John

[Surlyprof]

Have you tried seeking out a first run 56 with the longer top tube? Would probably fit you perfectly. BTW... I forgot to mention that I also set my saddle height at 75.

John

[tc]

I should mention that my wife's 58 Sam with albatross bars has a 120mm Tallux stem.  My 58 Sam with Noodle bar has a 70mm Tallux stem.

[John Woo]

Marc, what’s the TT of your 56 Sam, since there were geo changes through the years? (Would you have a photo?)

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Marc Irwin <irwi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm 5'11"and and have an 84 PBH. I ride 56 Hillborne and 54 Hunqapillar. They are both incredibly comfortable.
>
> Marc
>

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[John W]

To clarify, I don’t mean to say that the stack is wrong, just a bit higher than I’d expect, even with an upslope. This is going on past experience with compact frames, and having ridden others’ off the peg frames like the Awol and Vaya.

https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry

The stack (vertical height from center of bottom bracket to top tube/headtubeintersection) is 64.5cm on a size 58 frame.

My PBH is 85. With shoes on I can comfortably ride my 56cm Disc Trucker, which has an 85cm standover with 50mm Marathons.

[John W]

My PBH is 85.

The geo chart can be found here:
https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry

The reach seems significantly shorter and the stack significantly higher than I’d expect, even having ridden similar compact frames like the Vaya and Awol.

I’m not saying the number are wrong, but head scratching to someone like me who has never ridden a Riv “expanded” geo frame. Hence my poll.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Anyone have a photo of their 56cm Sam (59cm TT) with a saddle height in my neighborhood?

[John Woo]

Truer words were never spoken.

Separate thought: I think someone could make a fortune selling or renting a fit cycle that could actually be ridden, at least around the block a few times.

[jtallman]

Hello John.

I am around 5'11" with a 86 cm pbh and ride with roughly a 75 cm saddle height. I am attaching a photo of my 55 Sam Hillborne set up with bars even with saddle, 8 cm stem with Marks bars. Saddle is a brooks b17 with a VO setback seatpost.

For reference, I am also attaching a photo of my 61 Romulus, set up the same as the Hillborne with the only difference being a 7 cm stem due to the slightly longer top tube of the Romulus.

I guess my point is that even though 61 sounds a lot bigger than 55 when it comes to sizing a bike, the upward slope of the Hillborne's top tube makes it a much bigger bike than you may think it is.

Jon Tallman

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 2:38:19 AM UTC-5, John W wrote:

Hello folks,

[John Woo]

Thanks Tom. Good data points.

Could you perhaps snap a photo of your wife’s bike? I’m curious about the stem height and length, although I’d be running drop bars.

[John Woo]

I have indeed search around for a 56 Sam with the shorter top tube. (I had a WTB post a little while back.) But I’m not really counting on one showing up, hence my decision point between the 55 and 58 sizes.

John

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Surlyprof <jmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Have you tried seeking out a first run 56 with the longer top tube? Would probably fit you perfectly. BTW... I forgot to mention that I also set my saddle height at 75.
>
> John
>

[tc]

Link to my google photos album. Both mine and wife’s Sams are in there.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9kfJxuf3sXyDyBoA3

[Surlyprof]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/129545862@N03/19238298132/in/dateposted-public/

Here's a photo of my 56 with Smart Sams.  Those are the biggest tires I can get on there.  Saddle height is 75.

John

[adam leibow]

Hey John,

I just bought a 58cm SH and I am 5'-9" with 87.5 PBH. I have very long legs for my height, so I figured I could fit the bigger size and I was right. The TT is proportionally long but it feels good with 7cm stem and 46cm noodles. I would forsure go 58 if it were me. Depends how low/high you want the bars. I like bars & saddle to be about even, and this does the trick. 

[Austin]

I've wondered this about my Sam too. I'm a hair under 6'3", 93cm PBH, 82cm seat height on a 62cm frame with a 90mm stem. I've always felt the bike is a little big and wondered if a 60 would be better. Of course they don't make 60's any more. Maybe I need to find someone with a 60cm frame that is on the small side and make a swap....

[John Woo]

All very excellent points, Jeremy. Thanks. 

--

[John W]

Thank you everyone for your very patient advice. I've concluded that a current 55 or even better, a 56 with the 57.5 TT, is the way to go for me. Basically, what Riv recommends!

John

[eflayer]

How long do you think your stem will be on a 56? Just curious.

[John Woo]

Around 9 or 10cm, depending on which drop bars I decide to use. 

--

[Surlyprof]

John,

I'm pretty sure the green, first run Sam's actually had a 59 tt.  Riv could probably confirm this.  That might be a great fit.  I do think those first 56s had a double tt, which I always coveted, but some dislike.  All a matter of preference.

Good luck on your quest.

John

[Jeff Lesperance]

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Surlyprof <jmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

John,

I'm pretty sure the green, first run Sam's actually had a 59 tt.  Riv could probably confirm this.  That might be a great fit.  I do think those first 56s had a double tt, which I always coveted, but some dislike.  All a matter of preference.

Yup - it was the old 52cm Sam that had the 57.5 TT, while the 56cm had a 59 TT - pretty sure this was generation 1 and 2, with the first gen having canti's, and the second gen having sidepulls (my green double TT 60cm had sidepulls), according to this old geometry chart that used to be linked from somewhere on Riv's site:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gfiN1kOxVrthdc6eScUF9fP5n-BvRBILbBMYiEg5LM4/edit#gid=0

-Jeff

Silver Spring, MD

[John Woo]

But weren’t there also “56” Sams (700c wheels) with 57.5 effective measurement, single top tubes?

“55” and “56”... I hesitate to ask, but does that refer to the seat tube measurement, c-to-top, right? If not, how does one get that measurement if it’s not on the geo chart?

[Bill Lindsay]

John W

Yes there was a single top tube cantilever brake 56cm Sam Hillborne with a 57.5cm effective top tube length. That’s what I have. I purchased it in December 2009. My saddle height is 75.5cm. It’s splendid. I’m 5’10”. Contact me off list if you want to go through measurements.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, Ca.

[Sean McRobert]

FYI, I noticed this 56cm 2 TT Sam for sale.  https://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/bik/d/rivendell-sam-hillborne-steel/6500174394.html  I'm not affiliated with the seller.

[Scott McLain]

I similar measurements to you 5-11, 87cm inseam. I ride a size 58 LHT and a size 59 Riv AHH. I would go with the smaller sam if I intended to run drop bars. It’s reach is very similar to the 58 LHT and 59 AHH.

If you are going upright bars, you can go either way. A bosco bar will eat up lots of top tube. There was a great pic on this list of a 60 chev with a slammed boscomoose! Not sure I would do that with a Sam but just sayin you could.

I would trust the Riv guys if I was buying new.

What color, now that is a really hard question!

Good Luck!

Scott

[John Bokman]

I would go smaller if running drops. I was in between sizes in 2009, got the larger frame (60cm) and wished I'd gotten the smaller (56) because the top tube was so long. Even with a short 7 cm stem, it was too long for me, although standover was adequate. 7 years later, I got a smaller Sam (58cm) and it's perfect. Mind you, this is for a rider who rides with drop bars below saddle level. i still prefer the short stem. My legs are long relative to my torso.

[Christopher Murray]

In 2012 I went to Rivendell with the intent of getting a 56cm Sam. I was in San Francisco for business and was hoping to bring it home with me. Waterford was making them at the time. I have a 84.75cm PBH and have a 57cm Bleriot, 56cm Quickbeam, 55cm Appa. I'd also ridden a 56cm Atlantis and 56cm Ram. Kevin was there and he got the bike ready for me and.... it didn't fit. I couldn't stand over the top tube. I went home empty handed. I recently talked to Riv about the 55.5cm Rosco and Grant said it should fit but couldn't explain why the 56cm Sam didn't. The best guess was it was actually a 58cm. I passed on the Rosco because I couldn't shake that experience with the Sam. With a 58cm and a PBH of 85, I'd be concerned about stand over height especially with bigger tires. I think the 55cm would be the safe choice.

Good luck!

Chris

[John Woo]

Thanks Chris for the advice.

I’m guessing that you were straddling a 58cm, which has roughly an 85cm standover, with 32ish-mm tires.

Although with shoes on, I’d think you’d be able to at least stand over that bike.

[Minh]

John,

I'm a little late but i will add my 2 cents, i'm 6ft tall with a 32inch'ish inseam and ride a 60cm QB (with Albas) and an early orange 56cm with drops+80mm stem--which the geo-charts says has a 59tt.  the Sam is a little long for me, especially if i do a lot of riding stretched out on the hoods.

i'd follow chris' advice and think about what you want to run wrt handlebars and pay attention to the TT measurement against another bike you know fits. and of course if you can find someone local to test ride that's best, i'm surprised there isn't a lister in the NYC area with one!

[John Woo]

Thanks Minh. I agree. I think the longest TT I'd want to run on the Sam is 57.5mm. (The early oranges did have a 59mm.)

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[Matt C.]

I have almost exact dimensions as OP. I was at the Stop Swap and Save a few weeks ago and stood over someone's 58cm Sam they were selling. I could clear the TT but it seemed like it would be a stretch to ride with drops. They had it set up with some form of sweep back bars which may have worked, but it just seemed a bit big overall. I would recommend a 55cm based on my experience.

Matt Cook
Bristol, RI

[Marc40a]

John,

I'll reach out to you when I get home. I'm about your size (6' tall, my saddle height is 77.5 from saddle center to crank center.)

I have a 56 Sam (57.5 TT)  that I'm reluctantly selling this spring in MA.  I have pics, measurements, advice. 

Best,

Marc