Current indexing systems and shifting in general, per the Knothole

[Patrick Moore]

1. Road 10 speed derailleurs and shifters are completely incompatible with mountain (dyna sys) 10 speed derailleurs and shifters. The cable pull by the shifters is different for both front and rear. 

2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push.

3. Dyna sys 10 speed rear derailleurs cannot be used with 9 speed shifters. Road 10 speed derailleurs can be used with 9 speed shifters.

4. Nine speed front derailleurs can be used with 10 speed front shifters, but do not work optimally if used with a 10 speed crankset. Nine speed front derailleurs and cranksets can be used with 10 speed chains and front shifters. A nine speed shifter can be used to shift a 10 speed dyna sys front derailleur.

5. 10 speed road chains are different from 10 speed mountain (dyna sys) chains. The dyna sys chain is a directional chain that is made to shift better with 10 speed mountain drivetrains.

6. 10 speed road cassettes and 10 speed mountain cassette use the same sprocket spacing.

[...]

The days of bike riders shopping for new cranks or cassettes or shifters is mostly gone. Or at least, it's not like it used to be, by a mile. Bike shops are so desperate (for the most part) that they want their suppliers to drive customers to their stores with new exciting things every year.

I was not aware, taking just Shimano, of the variety and complexity and incompatibility of the various indexing systems. Man, it all looks like a hassle I am very, very happy to avoid. 

And the first sentence of the next paragraph seems very strange to me; nothing is more natural than shopping for new cranks and cassettes and shifters, in my world. I guess I live in an alternate universe, but one I like much better. I've just replaced crankset and cassettes and shifters on the Matthews.

Going from 9 to 10 was exciting, as far as these things go -- a very modest excitement, of course. But it was at least very interesting to learn that I can shift 10 cogs (and with misaligned ramps, at that, since the cassette is made from a handful of cogs grabbed from my box, and includes at least 8s and 9s and 10s, and probably 7s too) with Power Ratchets pulling a 8 speed era rd. I'd be better off with a 9 or 10 speed Microshift, with slower travel, but the 740n works fine even on dirt; I just have to be careful. It is more finicky than 9, which wasn't much different from 8.

The "new and exciting every year" is sad. But I know stores that are modestly thriving by selling every day stuff in addition to exotic stuff, and excelling with repairs.

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The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Stat crux dum volvitur orbis. (The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) Carthusian motto

It is we who change; He remains the same. Eckhart

Kinei hos eromenon. (It moves [all things] as the beloved.) Aristotle

Le sacre est la projection du Centre celeste dans la peripherie cosmique, ou du "Moteur immobile" dans le flux des choses. F Schuon, Le Sens du Sacre, Etudes Traditionnelles, 1r q 1979

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/08/2017 02:52 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:

1. Road 10 speed derailleurs and shifters are completely incompatible with mountain (dyna sys) 10 speed derailleurs and shifters. The cable pull by the shifters is different for both front and rear.

but rear derailleurs can be made compatible with the appropriate cable-pull altering device (e.g. Wolftooth TanPan, Shiftmate 6) as can 11 speed Shimano road shifters & DynaSys MTB rear derailleurs

2. Nine speed rear derailleurs will not work with 10 speed mountain rear shifters. They will however work with road “flat bar” 10 speed rear shifters. Dyna speed shifters pull twice as much cable per shift as 9 speed shifters, so if you use a 9 speed derailleur it shifts two gears for every one push.

3. Dyna sys 10 speed rear derailleurs cannot be used with 9 speed shifters. Road 10 speed derailleurs can be used with 9 speed shifters

With 9 speed and 10 speed Shimano road shifters use 9 speed Shimano MTB rear derailleurs. 

4. Nine speed front derailleurs can be used with 10 speed front shifters, but do not work optimally if used with a 10 speed crankset. Nine speed front derailleurs and cranksets can be used with 10 speed chains and front shifters. A nine speed shifter can be used to shift a 10 speed dyna sys front derailleur.

5. 10 speed road chains are different from 10 speed mountain (dyna sys) chains. The dyna sys chain is a directional chain that is made to shift better with 10 speed mountain drivetrains.

6. 10 speed road cassettes and 10 speed mountain cassette use the same sprocket spacing.

[...]

The days of bike riders shopping for new cranks or cassettes or shifters is mostly gone. Or at least, it's not like it used to be, by a mile. Bike shops are so desperate (for the most part) that they want their suppliers to drive customers to their stores with new exciting things every year.

I was not aware, taking just Shimano, of the variety and complexity and incompatibility of the various indexing systems. Man, it all looks like a hassle I am very, very happy to avoid.

With Shimano road 11 they've taken road cassettes to 32T, but for many with the usual (and often not replaceable with any better gearing) 34/50 that's not a low enough low gear.  It was much simpler in 10 speed days: replace cassette and rear derailleur as noted above and you're good up to 36T in back.  That won't work with 11, and it's necessary to enter the world of altering cable pull.

[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 12:41:59 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

   

With Shimano road 11 they've taken road cassettes to 32T, but for many with the usual (and often not replaceable with any better gearing) 34/50 that's not a low enough low gear.  It was much simpler in 10 speed days: replace cassette and rear derailleur as noted above and you're good up to 36T in back.  That won't work with 11, and it's necessary to enter the world of altering cable pull.

Agree.  With 11 speed, all of the different platforms work with each other. So you can mix Campy, Shimano and Sram wheels and cassettes.  With my friends, several have gone to bigger gearing like 11-32 or 11-36 and one friend just picked up an 11-40 or 12-40, so don't know if that will work. I know there's also 12-42 and I think either an 11-50 or 12-50 11 speed cassette!  The key is you need to have a "mid-cage" RD.  All of these big gear cassette is being driven by the latest "1 by" movement. But that doesn't stop you found adapting to a bike with a double or even a triple crank!  Of course, you may need a "mid-cage" RD and the wolf tooth thing.

For my next bike, I'm planning on going etap "wireless" with mid-cage RD. I want to run 11-32 in the rear with a sub-compact double like a 46x30 or 46x28.  Since I don't "tour" or carry a load, a 30x32 or 28x32 should be more than enough to get me up the hills around here! Of course, YMMV!  Good Luck!

[Patrick Moore]

I guess the gaps are getting so narrow that any difference between marques disappears. But that's a good thing.

What about derailleurs? Are road and mountain bike derailleurs compatible with the opposite shifters? And what about shifter compatibility between the different marques?

Frankly, if I were to use indexing, I'd at least seriously consider wireless electric (I'm tempted to be snide and say, "If you've abdicated shifting skill to indexing, you might as use electricity," but I won't). But my last bike with indexing was the Ram, when I had it set up with 7 speed Dura Ace, and I didn't particularly like it. Friction for me. 

Patrick "hell, fixed/single for me" Moore, who just had a nice 76" gear ride on the gofast in breezy but sunny and warm ABQ, NM.

Seriously, if you don't shift so much, you have all the more attention to give to other aspects of cycling, like cadence strategy -- but don't mind me, I admit that it's chacun/ne a son/sa gout/te.

[Patrick Moore]

Segueing a lil' bit: there was another thread today on this list or t'other, where someone attached old video of Eddy one one of the big rides. Very interesting to see (I guess this was very early '70s) how pedaling had changed from the days of Coppi and late Bartali. You watch even older video of C and B on the flats, and they're spinning at very high cadences; Coppi seemed to prefer the spin-coast, spin-coast, which I also favored 25 years ago when I could maintain 20-23 in my favorite 64-65" gear. Then they hit inclines, and they're grinding up in amazingly high gears at very low cadences.

But Eddy and companions are pushing bigger gears on the flats, and it is very interesting to see how, at the slightest rise or, perhaps, a turn into a wind, they get out of the saddle, without downshifting, and torque their way through the "obstacle." And they stand while in the hooks! (And, btw, Eddy was a "messy" pedaler; you can't say he had finesse -- all over the bike!)

I've not watched much Tour video since Big Mig, but I daresay that the style now is fast spinning and maintaining cadence in all conditions and terrains.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/08/2017 04:21 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 12:41:59 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

   

With Shimano road 11 they've taken road cassettes to 32T, but for many with the usual (and often not replaceable with any better gearing) 34/50 that's not a low enough low gear.  It was much simpler in 10 speed days: replace cassette and rear derailleur as noted above and you're good up to 36T in back.  That won't work with 11, and it's necessary to enter the world of altering cable pull.

Agree.  With 11 speed, all of the different platforms work with each other. So you can mix Campy, Shimano and Sram wheels and cassettes.  With my friends, several have gone to bigger gearing like 11-32 or 11-36 and one friend just picked up an 11-40 or 12-40, so don't know if that will work. I know there's also 12-42 and I think either an 11-50 or 12-50 11 speed cassette!  The key is you need to have a "mid-cage" RD.  All of these big gear cassette is being driven by the latest "1 by" movement. But that doesn't stop you found adapting to a bike with a double or even a triple crank!  Of course, you may need a "mid-cage" RD and the wolf tooth thing.

It's not quite that simple if you need low gears.  The "generic road bike" these days is carbon, and there's a good chance it has a non-round seat tube because swoopy sells.  So instead of clamp on front derailleurs we have braze-on style mounting tabs.  And in many cases those mounting tabs are made so that the smallest big chain ring you can use is a 50T, because the slot is oriented so that you can raise the front derailleur (to accommodate a 53) but you can't lower it.  That means you're pretty much stuck with a 34/50 compact double. 

And if your 34x32 won't cut it, yes you can go to a cassette with a monster big sprocket, but your road derailleur (no matter what brand) won't work.  You could eke out an extra couple of teeth with a RoadLink -- basically a "drop bolt for rear derailleurs" that would let your 32T capable road rear derailleur fit a 34T, but a RoadLink isn't going to get you to 40 never mind bigger with a 34/50 crank.

Compatibility:

• 10s Cassette Compatibility:
• 11-32: Not Required (GS medium cage rear derailleur works) 
• 11-34: Single or Double Chainring
• 11-36: Single or Double Chainring (front rings can be no more than 14 teeth different e.g. 48-34)
• 11-40: Single or Double Chainring (front rings can be no more than 10 teeth different e.g. 46-36)
• 11-42: Not Supported
• 11s Cassette Compatibility:
• 11-32: Not Required (GS medium cage rear derailleur works)
• 11-36: Single or Double Chainring (front rings can be no more than 14 teeth different e.g. 48-34)
• 11-40: Single or Double Chainring (front rings can be no more than 10 teeth different e.g. 46-36)
• 11-42: Not Supported
• 10-42: Not Supported

Sure, if you could fit a 36/46 you'd be fine, but you were in this fix in the first place because of the slot in that mounting tab, so no joy to be found there.  Which means you're looking at MTB rear derailleurs and cable pull altering devices.

For my next bike, I'm planning on going etap "wireless" with mid-cage RD. I want to run 11-32 in the rear with a sub-compact double like a 46x30 or 46x28.  Since I don't "tour" or carry a load, a 30x32 or 28x32 should be more than enough to get me up the hills around here! Of course, YMMV!  Good Luck!

You can help that luck by making sure your frame has a round seat tube and uses a clamp on front derailleur.  Which pretty much means a titanium frame.

[Joe Bernard]

The comment about people not buying cranks and shifters anymore struck me because I realized I'm kinda there now. I used to do a lot of drivetrain swapping/upgrading, more as part of the "hobby" than for any real hope of improving functionality. My Appaloosa came from RBW with Sugino cranks, Deore rear derailer and a rather clunky-looking Claris front. It's not a particularly cohesive look, not particularly light, and works fine..I feel no inclination to replace any of it with lighter/shinier stuff like in the old days.

Then there's my ebike with a 1x10 Deore shifter and derailer: Click, click, click, ride, ride, ride..it's absolutely invisible to me out on the road, which seems weird. I'm becoming that person who just hops on and rides without giving much thought to what parts are making it go. I never thought this would happen.

Joe Bernard

[Conway Bennett]

On my XO I run a 1x10. Wolf tooth drop stop up front, medium cage ultegra 6700 out back with an XT cassette and chain. It all shifts flawlessly with an XC-Pro thumbie.

[Joe Bernard]

Does your XC-Pro shifter have a pure friction option? I thought they all had a choice of hard or soft clicks to avoid a click/friction patent Shimano had.

[Captain Conway Bennett]

It's 7 speed indexed or I guess 10 speed friction.

Fair winds,

Captain Conway Bennett

> On Mar 8, 2017, at 7:27 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Does your XC-Pro shifter have a pure friction option? I thought they all had a choice of hard or soft clicks to avoid a click/friction patent Shimano had.
>

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[Nick Payne]

It's not quite that simple if you need low gears.  The "generic road bike" these days is carbon, and there's a good chance it has a non-round seat tube because swoopy sells.  So instead of clamp on front derailleurs we have braze-on style mounting tabs.  And in many cases those mounting tabs are made so that the smallest big chain ring you can use is a 50T, because the slot is oriented so that you can raise the front derailleur (to accommodate a 53) but you can't lower it.  That means you're pretty much stuck with a 34/50 compact double. 

And if your 34x32 won't cut it, yes you can go to a cassette with a monster big sprocket, but your road derailleur (no matter what brand) won't work.  You could eke out an extra couple of teeth with a RoadLink -- basically a "drop bolt for rear derailleurs" that would let your 32T capable road rear derailleur fit a 34T, but a RoadLink isn't going to get you to 40 never mind bigger with a 34/50 crank.

On my wife's carbon BH Quartz, which uses a braze-on tab, an Ultegra Braze-on front derailleur was able to be positioned low enough to be in the correct position when using a crank with 44/30 chainrings: 

For 11-speed road shifters combined with wide range cassettes, use SRAM - their 10-speed MTB derailleurs use the same cable pull as their 11-speed road shifters. Here's the drivetrain on one of my bikes that uses Force 22 road shifters, 42/29 chainrings, SRAM X9 MTB RD, and Shimano 11-40 11s cassette. SRAM publish a list of their "exact actuation" components at https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/technologies/exact-actuation. All components on that list are compatible - just match the shifters to the number of cogs on the cassette.

I've never found any problem on two chainring setups with mixing different manufacturers front derailleurs and shifters. I have Campagnolo shifters with Shimano FD, Shimano shifters with Campagnolo FD, and SRAM shifters with Shimano FD.

Another combination that works perfectly is Campagnolo 11s shifters with Shimano 9s cassette and Shimano 9s RD, as the cable pull is virtually identical between Shimano 9s and Campag 11s. When my old pair of Ultegra 9s STI shifters started to fail several years ago, I found I could buy a pair of new Chorus 11s Ergo shifters as cheaply as the prices being asked for NOS Ultegra 6500 shifters, so I went that route.

[Bill M.]

Or a Calfee.  Which, come to think of it, Brewster already owns.

I have had no problems mixing SRAM road and mountain 10 speed derailleurs and shifters with 44/28 and 42/26 cranks and 11/32 or 12/28 cassettes.  Even on my Calfee, now sadly sold.

Bill 

Stockton, CA

[ascpgh]

I attached that video of Merckx to give image to Jan Heine's observation of the riding style necessitated by the CFRP frame he tested in the current BQ and how it differed from his regular bike(s) with frame flex, suppleness. He illustrated his point by describing how Merckx pedaled with his whole body, as you described, standing in the hooks without downshifting to torque through the obstacle.

Andy Cheatham

PIttsburgh

[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 9:29:31 PM UTC-8, Bill M. wrote:

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 2:14:48 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 03/08/2017 04:21 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:

For my next bike, I'm planning on going etap "wireless" with mid-cage RD. I want to run 11-32 in the rear with a sub-compact double like a 46x30 or 46x28.  Since I don't "tour" or carry a load, a 30x32 or 28x32 should be more than enough to get me up the hills around here! Of course, YMMV!  Good Luck!

You can help that luck by making sure your frame has a round seat tube and uses a clamp on front derailleur.  Which pretty much means a titanium frame.

Or a Calfee.  Which, come to think of it, Brewster already owns.

Haha, my secret is out!  Actually, I'm thinking of getting one of these really lightweight carbon bikes to see what all the fuss is about. I see my buddies with these 14-15lb bikes with e-shifting and they're loving it!  I mean, take a look at the latest Trek Emonda. With not really stupid light parts, you can get a 10.25lb bike that supposedly has a weight limit of 275lb?!  Yow!  I doubt there are many here who are that heavy, but if so, there it is!

I do agree that a round seat tube with a clamp on FD is ideal. However, my 90-ish Litespeed Classic ti bike has a braze-on FD hanger tab and I have my FD mounted at the lowest point for my 48/34 crankset. 

Alternatively, if I don't go crazy and get that fancy carbon bike, I'm still thinking about a custom steel. If so, it will definitely use a clamp-on FD adapter. Or, if I must put on a FD hanger tab, it is going to be either one really long hanger or mounted very low so I have the option of running anything from 53/39 to 46/28 or smaller....Good Luck!

[stevef]

Which cranks and rings were those, Bill--I'd like to set up my all road bike with a 44t big/28-32t small crankset and 10 speed shimano road mechs, but I'm having trouble finding a crank that'll work.

Steve

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/09/2017 01:05 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 9:29:31 PM UTC-8, Bill M. wrote:

On Wednesday, March 8, 2017 at 2:14:48 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 03/08/2017 04:21 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:

For my next bike, I'm planning on going etap "wireless" with mid-cage RD. I want to run 11-32 in the rear with a sub-compact double like a 46x30 or 46x28.  Since I don't "tour" or carry a load, a 30x32 or 28x32 should be more than enough to get me up the hills around here! Of course, YMMV!  Good Luck!

You can help that luck by making sure your frame has a round seat tube and uses a clamp on front derailleur.  Which pretty much means a titanium frame.

Or a Calfee.  Which, come to think of it, Brewster already owns.

Haha, my secret is out!  Actually, I'm thinking of getting one of these really lightweight carbon bikes to see what all the fuss is about. I see my buddies with these 14-15lb bikes with e-shifting and they're loving it!  I mean, take a look at the latest Trek Emonda. With not really stupid light parts, you can get a 10.25lb bike that supposedly has a weight limit of 275lb?!  Yow!  I doubt there are many here who are that heavy, but if so, there it is!

The Calfee may have a round seat tube, but I'm pretty sure none of the Trek "Anagram" bikes do.

I do agree that a round seat tube with a clamp on FD is ideal. However, my 90-ish Litespeed Classic ti bike has a braze-on FD hanger tab and I have my FD mounted at the lowest point for my 48/34 crankset. 

And some braze on mounting tabs have their slots configured to allow smaller than 50T big rings.  Many these days do not.  It is a limiting factor you need to be aware of.

[Jon BALER]

for the friction shifters, a couple of alternate ideas:

My Fargo has 10 speed mountain dynasys rear der and cassette, but uses a 9 speed friction shifter.   I took a dremel to the shifter to get more travel out of it.

My rosco build uses 10 speed mountain/dynasys in the rear, and 10 speed road in the front.  50/34 cranks with 11:34 cassette gives a good range for commuting and all around road riding.  Shifting is handled by IRD power ratchet shifters, which have enough travel for dynaysis.

[Brewster Fong]

Agree. At last year's NAHBS, I got into it with Mark DiNucci, one of the premier builders at the show!  When I heard he was showing, I really wanted to check out his frames. He didn't disappoint as he had 2 or 3 of the cleanest bikes/frames on display:

Beautiful work especially the long thin lugs that just flow into the frame. Gorgeous! But one question I had for him was whether I could get a frameset without the FD hanger tab. He blew up! He asked why? I told him I wanted to be able to adjust the FD to work with whatever crank I got. He then went on about how they design the frame with the crank in mind and how the hanger tab would be properly place!  Since he got animated, I let it go. But later thought, I should have asked what happens if someone decides to change their crank?  Let's say you are young "racer" type and want to use a crank with 53/39 chainrings. Later, you get older and slower and want more gearing so you go to 50/34 or 48/34.  Will that new crank if the FD hanger tab? Let's say it does. Then a few years later, you want to go even smaller like a 44/30 or 44/28?!  Will that tab still allow the FD to work with this new smaller gearing?! 

I guess if I ever get the money for a DiNucci, that is one of the questions I'll be asking! Good Luck!

[Jim Bronson]

The one Randonneur that I know who has electronic shifting, it has failed him twice on long brevets.  He says hooking it up to his laptop and resetting the whole system fixes it.  He's an extremely strong rider despite being in his mid-60s and he can deal with having front shifting only.

Last time this topic came up I researched some Windows 10 tablets on Amazon and there were some that weighed less than a pound that cost around $100.  That would be the price for me to get electronic shifting, I would have to have something with me on the bike that could run Shimano's software for troubleshooting..  I would need to have the tools to service it in the field.  I am not strong enough to just jam it up steep hills with whatever gearing that I had available with the rear derailer fixed in place.

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[Steve Palincsar]

Going from the now omnipresent 35/50 to 39/53 is within the capabilities of the common hanger tab you find on many (most?) carbon road bikes these days.  The problem is going smaller than 50.  There may well be some, my experience with modern carbon road bikes is very limited, but the ones I've looked at have not.

As for future compatibility with other cranks and chain ring combinations, I'm guessing that's not an important consideration for bike designers these days.  Getting older & slower?  You'll probably need to raise your bars a bit too, and good luck with that if they cut your steerer so as to not leave any extra for future needs.   You need those changes?  Get a new bike. 

[Jim Bronson]

Yes, I carry spare cables at all times, and on really long brevets (more than 600K) I carry an extra bar end shifter too!  And a spare tire too for that matter, at all times.

I run high spoke counts so I don't have to carry spare spokes - never had a spoke fail on a wheel with 36 or more spokes that was built by a competent wheel builder.  If I ran wheels with lower spoke counts I would carry a fiber fix spoke.  (have some 32H Pacenti SL23s hanging in my garage I am considering having built up...)

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Scott Henry <ske...@gmail.com> wrote:

Not sure on why you would need a tablet.   Do you take extra cables and spokes on your rides too?  

For the most part, electric shifting is pretty rock steady.   Being with a shop that sells them, I've had one DI2 come back.   One.   I stopped trying to see how long the battery lasts, It just keeps going and going. 
I've stopped counting defective cable actuated parts.   No need to count really, we have an open RA number for Sram.    Best warranty  program in the business.  Though  if they didn't build crap they wouldn't need it.

Some people can break anything.   They shouldn't have nice things.  

Moreish on the topic.   Clamp on front derailleurs are the way to go.    My 46x28 likes them.

Scott

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/09/2017 03:55 PM, Scott Henry wrote:

Not sure on why you would need a tablet.   Do you take extra cables and spokes on your rides too?  

For the most part, electric shifting is pretty rock steady.   Being with a shop that sells them, I've had one DI2 come back.   One.   I stopped trying to see how long the battery lasts, It just keeps going and going. 

If you mean how long a charge lasts, I had a woman on a ride I led last month whose DI2 unit went into the first warning mode of low charge, shifting to the small chain ring and refusing to budge from it.  This happened something like 15 miles into the ride, and she spent the rest of the ride rationing shifts hoping to finish the ride before the unit quit working entirely.  It had been "a very long time," she said, since she'd even checked the state of charge, never mind charged the system, and had no clue how many miles she'd gone.   It may be rare, and it may take a long time to get to that state, but it definitely does happen.

I've stopped counting defective cable actuated parts.   No need to count really, we have an open RA number for Sram.    Best warranty  program in the business.  Though  if they didn't build crap they wouldn't need it.

Some people can break anything.   They shouldn't have nice things.  

Moreish on the topic.   Clamp on front derailleurs are the way to go.    My 46x28 likes them.

Yes, they're great - but they do require a round seat tube and OMG how boring is that, right?

[Brewster Fong]

 I bet most FD hanger tabs will allow a crank to go from 53/39 to something with a 48/34 or maybe and this is a stretch 46/34 combo.

As for future compatibility with other cranks and chain ring combinations, I'm guessing that's not an important consideration for bike designers these days.  Getting older & slower?  You'll probably need to raise your bars a bit too, and good luck with that if they cut your steerer so as to not leave any extra for future needs.   You need those changes?  Get a new bike. 

Well, some mfrs are trying to address that. It isn't very "racy" looking, but there are riser stems available for just that scenario:

 http://www.interlocracing.com/stems/satin-stem-318mm

Available in both 31.8mm and 26.0mm, these 35 and 17 degree rise stems should be able to get those bars up nice and high!  If you need higher, then your bike is too small! Good Luck!

[Patrick Moore]

A thought as an aside: a 44 X 12 (99 gi with 27" wheel) is smack in the middle of a 50 X 13 and a 50 X 14; and at the other end, a 24 X 32 (20 gi) is just 10% lower than a 30 X 36 (22 gi). 

I got compact, indeed sub compact, gearing with a 52/38 using a cassette with a 16 t Miche outer cog. IOW, there are ways to accommodate high tabs.

Quoth Steve P:

 

Going from the now omnipresent 35/50 to 39/53 is within the capabilities of the common hanger tab you find on many (most?) carbon road bikes these days.  The problem is going smaller than 50.  There may well be some, my experience with modern carbon road bikes is very limited, but the ones I've looked at have not.

 

[Garth]

With the electro stuff, are they gonna have batteries indefinitely ? I doubt you will see may "classic" electro shifting bikes down he road with original parts. Me, I am getting a bit turned off by all the technology creeping into everything, as if a computer is "THE answer" to everything, and it's not since the only "solution" would be the impossibility of all problems.

[Michael Hechmer]

Boy, this all makes my 84 Trek look better & better, because I don't want to buy stuff I want to Just Ride.

Michael

[Bill M.]

I have two Campy Record Triple cranks that I run without outer rings to create ultra-compact doubles.  135 mm TA and Stronglight chainrings are available from XX Cycle in France.  Bottom brackets are pretty scarce, though.  The inner is a standard 74 mm ring.

Many iBOB's will shudder at the thought of a slightly wider q factor than they would like.  In my case, my toes point out quite a bit, and the Campy arms offer good ankle bone clearance so they fit me well.  

Bill

[Steven Frederick]

Thanks, Bill-I prefer a wider Q as well.  I should look  for those rings to fit cranks I already have, see if I can put something together.

Steve

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[Jim Bronson]

Yes, I don't just want, I *NEED* high-q.  Low-q makes my knees hurt, all other things being equal.  I've tried, believe me.  I'm just big with big hips and my feet need to be farther apart than that.  I use pedal extenders on top of having a high-q crank.

Jim

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[Nick Payne]

Here's the crankset on my Bleriot. Sugino XD cranks, 36/24 chainrings. I made the chainguard from an old TA 41t chainring by hacksawed the teeth off and smoothing down with file and sandpaper. Deore XT 2x10 front derailleur. Rear gearing is an 11-36 10-speed cassette with 9-speed XT rear mech and Shimano 10-speed barcons. A 107mm BB gives the correct chainline.

[Brewster Fong]

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 4:18:17 AM UTC-8, Garth wrote:

With the electro stuff, are they gonna have batteries indefinitely ?  I doubt you will see may "classic" electro shifting bikes down he road with original parts. Me, I am getting a bit turned off by all the technology creeping into everything, as if a computer is "THE answer" to everything, and it's not since the only "solution" would be the impossibility of all problems.

I disagree. I think e-bikes are here to stay. Besides the "racing" stuff like di2 and etap (which btw uses standard 2032 batteries for the shifters, but requires proprietary batteries for the FD and RD), there are numerous e-bikes out there for many uses. On my commute home, I have several hills to climb. I routinely get passed going up by a Bakfiet and Yugo cargo bikes loading with kids and groceries. I also get passed by kids on e-skateboards going up hill!  The latter is kind of a trip as you see these kids standing on their e-boards cruising up the hill.

Also, e-bikes are a good way to get just one more car off the road. I usually talk to the owner and most appear to be moms. I find it interesting and a lot more fun than driving a minivan, which I had when my girls were small.

Yes, batteries are going to need replacing at some point. But like a car, they should be available.  After all, if there's money to be made, I'm sure the mfrs will continue to provide it! Good Luck!

[Steven Frederick]

Are those standard Sugino rings, and they work fine with a 10 speed chain?  One of the chief issues I'm running into is finding 10-speed specific rings in my preferred tooth count/BCD...

Thanks, Steve

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[Patrick Moore]

I've used generic Sugino and ancient Pro 5 Vis rings with 10 speed chains; no problems at all.

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[Nick Payne]

No, they're just chainrings I had in my parts collection. Probably originally 8- or 9-speed - definitely not 10-speed. The 36t is a Shimano and the 24t a stainless steel Sugino. Take no notice of the garbage spouted by the manufacturers about needing speed-specific chainrings. I've got several bikes running 11-speed chains/cassettes and not a single one of them has "11-speed chainrings".

On 11/03/2017 7:05 AM, Steven Frederick wrote:

[Brewster Fong]

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 4:31:18 AM UTC-8, Michael Hechmer wrote:

Boy, this all makes my 84 Trek look better & better, because I don't want to buy stuff I want to Just Ride.

That's great! If a 1984 Trek is all you need to ride, then I say Just Do It!  In contrast, I have a buddy who just got into riding about 5 years ago. He has the latest Trek (well, 2014 version) with di2 and all the works. It got him riding and he has now lost over 30lbs and flies up the hills!  I had been trying to get him on a bike for 20 years, but you know what was stopping him? dt shifters. He couldn't stand having to reach down to shift. Same goes for bar-ends. However, with integrated shifters, where your hands almost never leave the bar, he's into it!  He is now one of the guys pushing everyone to get out of bed on the weekends to ride! He also rides on the weekdays after work during the summer.

So, what ever floats your boat and gets you out on the bike, I say go for it and enjoy! Good Luck!  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/10/2017 02:35 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 4:18:17 AM UTC-8, Garth wrote:

With the electro stuff, are they gonna have batteries indefinitely ?  I doubt you will see may "classic" electro shifting bikes down he road with original parts. Me, I am getting a bit turned off by all the technology creeping into everything, as if a computer is "THE answer" to everything, and it's not since the only "solution" would be the impossibility of all problems.

I disagree. I think e-bikes are here to stay.

I think you're talking at cross purposes.  Electronic shifting may persist -- although it no longer seems to have the "must have" cachet it did when it was the flavor of the month, as far as I can tell -- but what is the chance that 50 years from now you'll see "classic" carbon bikes with people fetishizing the original 2017 DI2 shifters and derailleurs?  Because that's what Garth is talking about, not whether 50 years from now there will be e-bikes at all.  With no batteries, those systems won't run, unlike dumb mechanical systems.   Electrically motorized bicycles - who knows?  Long term viability probably depends on factors unknown right now.  How many gas powered mopeds do you see?  None at all where I am.

Besides the "racing" stuff like di2 and etap (which btw uses standard 2032 batteries for the shifters, but requires proprietary batteries for the FD and RD), there are numerous e-bikes out there for many uses. On my commute home, I have several hills to climb. I routinely get passed going up by a Bakfiet and Yugo cargo bikes loading with kids and groceries. I also get passed by kids on e-skateboards going up hill!  The latter is kind of a trip as you see these kids standing on their e-boards cruising up the hill.

Also, e-bikes are a good way to get just one more car off the road. I usually talk to the owner and most appear to be moms. I find it interesting and a lot more fun than driving a minivan, which I had when my girls were small.

Yes, batteries are going to need replacing at some point. But like a car, they should be available.  After all, if there's money to be made, I'm sure the mfrs will continue to provide it! Good Luck!

I'm not sure cars are a good analogy.  There's a lot of room in an engine compartment for a battery, and if the OEM is no longer available it's possible to fashion something to accept a battery that is available.  The e-shifter batteries really are pretty proprietary and there's not a lot of room to play with alternate form factors.  I'd guess camera batteries are a better analogy -- except that I suspect, based on current attitudes towards older carbon frames, that top line 50 year old cameras get a lot more respect and collector interest than any 50 year old carbon frame will.  

But I'm just guessing.

[Joe Bernard]

I think you've nailed it with "respect for 50yo carbon frames", they will be virtually non-existent. There's no real concern for the longevity of current electronic shifting systems because they'll be replaced in a few years along with the frame they're attached to.

I think traditional steel bikes with manual components will continue to be passed around and restored indefinitely, but this is simply not the case with carbon racey bikes. We are in the era of the disposable bicycle in that market.

[Patrick Moore]

Sheeeit! I knew that this new fangled shifting stuff was over rated. Glad I stuck with ss/fixed!

Seriously good on him.

Patrick "hands grimly gripping the bar" Moore, in sunny, mild, and breezy ABQ, NM (where he carried 21 lb home in his Ortlieb Sports Packers attached to his Matthews front lowriders).

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Brewster Fong <bfd...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...] you know what was stopping him? dt shifters. He couldn't stand having to reach down to shift. Same goes for bar-ends. However, with integrated shifters, where your hands almost never leave the bar, he's into it!  

[Brewster Fong]

On Friday, March 10, 2017 at 1:28:26 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:

I think you've nailed it with "respect for 50yo carbon frames", they will be virtually non-existent. There's no real concern for the longevity of current electronic shifting systems because they'll be replaced in a few years along with the frame they're attached to.

I think traditional steel bikes with manual components will continue to be passed around and restored indefinitely, but this is simply not the case with carbon racey bikes. We are in the era of the disposable bicycle in that market.

I have to agree. It is already happening with Shimano Dura Ace 1st generation di2. Parts are no longer available and the 800-1000 users are out of luck or have to pay exorbitant prices for spares!  I know one guy who got rid of his 1st gen DA carbon bike and now has a new carbon bike with guess...mechanical Sram Red!  :)

Btw, my calfee is now 20 years old since I bought it used in 1997 (I believe its a 94 model) and is still going strong. I have easily over 30,000 miles on it and expect it to last another 20 years. But the latest carbon frames out of Taiwan are much much lighter and who knows how long they will last.....then again, the MUSA Trek Emonda SLR frame that weighs 680g has a weight limit of 275lb, so who knows?! Good Luck!

[Tom M]

FYI, that DiNucci was built for Patrick Brady over at Redkiteprayer. He wrote a few articles on it. This one (http://redkiteprayer.com/2017/02/the-dinucci/) describes the tubeset and components.  Velo-Orange brakes, compact double, Zipp Wheels, fits 35 mm tires. Yellow Submarine–inspired paint job.

Tom Milani

Alexandria, VA

[Steve Palincsar]

Many of the most respected bikes in the Classic Rendezvous world are famous racers.  But until they decided those TdF wins never happened at all, was there ever a racing bike with a more illustrious record than the USPS OCLV Trek?  Just look at it:


Now compare with this icon:



One of these two is revered.   One makes you avert your eyes...

[Joe Bernard]

Well, some of the "avert your eyes" applied to the USPS bike is due to the largely erased history it was involved with, but yeah, it's not much to look at.

[RichS]

Nick, nice work crafting your home-brew chainguard!

Regards,

Richard