Silver 2 shifters

[Bill Lindsay]

The BLUG has a long write up and description of the Silver 2 shifters.  One big take home is the Silver 1 shifter mold is shot, so those will be going away.  So, if you love Silver shifters, stock up now.  The Silver 2 looks like it'll be a way better thumb shifter, a somewhat better barcon shifter, and an amusingly ironic downtube shifter.  Most importantly (to me), is that if you want to embolden Rivendell Bicycle Works to keep putting their money where their brains are, then reward them by buying a pair or two of Silver 2's and put them into your personal inventory.  When the need arises, get them from your stock.  If Riv gets a lot of early adopters buying them, then they'll have the confidence and the money to make the next part that you can't get anywhere else.  Grant tells you on the BLUG how to get on an email list for updates on the Silver 2.  

Bill habitual-early-adopter Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[William R.]

I put myself on the email list and will be getting at least two pairs of these for sure! Not that I really need them so much, but just for putting that money up for their effort, it's a good effort and I don't want things like this to go away. I suppose one pair will replace the thumbies that came stock on the Appaloosa. Not that I have any problems with them, but the new Silver 2's will be a nice upgrade, and the old ones will trickle onto my station bike. The other pair of Silver 2's? For display purposes until a use comes along.

Bill in Westchester, NY

[dougP]

The new shape looks especially elegant.  I can see a pair of these on the upright bars on my Atlantis.  That old Suntour ratchet provides just the right tactile feedback while still working with any number of speeds.  I still have an ancient pair of Bar-Cons that work perfectly after decades of use.  I expect the Silver 2s to perform similarly.

dougP

[Garth]

  Funny how "old" stuff keeps getting re-done  !   I still use ST thumbies and have since they came out on the early 80's. Yep, this design is best for thumbies.  This improves on the ST clamp design in a major way, win-win !

[Joe Broach]

So cool! Wish they had "the band." I'm sure the new clamp is 28% better, but holy cow was that hidden bolt band slick. Always seemed like the closest thing I owned to constructeur. I wonder if the deuce will have the same 3 point lever orientation option.

Who cares, though, so happy they're back!

Best,
joe
pdx or.

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[Grant @ Rivendell]

The band mated with the chunk and limited it to 22.2 bars, which was fine back then. It's fiddly to remove and remount (not toooo fiddly, but you have to remove the lever and go at it with an 8mm socket). NewSilver2 has some sort of curly flower thing going on 360-degrees, which lets you angle the cable ideally for any orientation.
Not saying "perfectomundo" here---just saying we've gone about it slowly and conscientiously and have rejected at least two "final" versions when we found a way to either fix them or improve on something that didn't need an actual fix.

I debated internally (didn't leave my personal skull) whether or not to make the door to the pawl and spring user serviceable, but in a flareup of sanity that might sound disrespectbul, I said No. If or when the mech wears out, sell one of your cats and get a new one, Bubba...and in the meantime, the rivet will stop most people from digging into something that's best left alone.

It's really a good feeling to see the enthusiasm for this shifter. It is really, still, amazing to me that

(1) all shifters aren't like this, and
(2) since they aren't, since it's such a push-button age when perfect performance with no learning is the norm, that we can sell them at all!

What a strange group you are. In a fantastic way!

G

On Saturday, October 15, 2016 at 1:53:26 AM UTC-7, joe b. wrote:

So cool! Wish they had "the band." I'm sure the new clamp is 28% better, but holy cow was that hidden bolt band slick. Always seemed like the closest thing I owned to constructeur. I wonder if the deuce will have the same 3 point lever orientation option.

Who cares, though, so happy they're back!

Best,
joe
pdx or.

On Oct 14, 2016 11:08 AM, "Bill Lindsay" <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

The BLUG has a long write up and description of the Silver 2 shifters.  One big take home is the Silver 1 shifter mold is shot, so those will be going away.  So, if you love Silver shifters, stock up now.  The Silver 2 looks like it'll be a way better thumb shifter, a somewhat better barcon shifter, and an amusingly ironic downtube shifter.  Most importantly (to me), is that if you want to embolden Rivendell Bicycle Works to keep putting their money where their brains are, then reward them by buying a pair or two of Silver 2's and put them into your personal inventory.  When the need arises, get them from your stock.  If Riv gets a lot of early adopters buying them, then they'll have the confidence and the money to make the next part that you can't get anywhere else.  Grant tells you on the BLUG how to get on an email list for updates on the Silver 2.  

Bill habitual-early-adopter Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

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[Conway Bennett]

G,

Have you solved the wimpy plastic washer issue? Maybe a thick hard rubber? I remember there were two types of action figures growing up: brittle Gi joes who's thumbs broke off and these heartier more maliable super heroes with a similar but durable Kung fu grip. I don't know why silvers 1s trigger this memory but that's where my mind goes. In any case, I learned my lesson and stocked up as I have silver 1s on noodles and cycle thru them and chalk it up to regular maintenance.

FW,

CBB

[Garth]

As for durability of the shifters, if they are as good as the original they should be great. I still use the original ST thumbies that came with my '83 Stumpjumper on one bike and another pair on the Bombadil, they both work as great as great can be. I agree with Grant that you gotta wonder why any other kind of shifter was ever made, other than to be "other than".

 Sure, you can take them apart but there is nothing to do in there anyways. So I don't see how not being user dismantled is an issue.    I hope the new ones still have the on-the-fly-no-screwdriver-needed adjustment screw on top though.

  The band on the original was one "weak" spot though, as with age and many times being adjusted and all, I have had 2 clamps break(the ends). Fortunately, I found some replacements on ebay .... yeh, you didn't know they existed until there they are, staring you in the face, Sweeeet .

 I look forward to the Riv ones because well, I can never have enough bikes to put them on :) 

  FWIW, I have shifted the same way since I first had a bike the could be shifted manually, it was a Fuji-something 10 speed that I bought from a doctor in the late 70's. Later on, I worked in a bike shop assembling and repairing bikes when the whole indexed thing was becoming big.  As I test rode the new bikes, I thought "indexed shifting, hmmm, okay, but I already know how to shift". So that was the end of that ..... hey, the feel, sound and motion of shifting is as beautiful as any other art .

[dougP]

Will the S2 be able to be mounted either conventionally up top on flat bars or on the inside as you've done lately?  Seems like the ratchet mech would allow more mounting freedom than say Shimano on Paul's thumbies.

I have an ancient pair of BarCons that have never been disassembled & still function well.  Glad you won that internal debate regarding user serviceability.  How many of us regret opening something up, only to have tiny bits go bouncing under the workbench?

dougP

[Reid]

So can the S2s be used as a replacement for the stock shifters that came on the Clems? My wife has a Clementine that she just LOVES, but the stock shifters have always given lots of "ghost" shifts, as discussed on this list some time back. I would sure like to replace the shifters with something that would be mounted in the same place for easy shifting, but that would not have the problems.

Reid

[Grant Petersen]

They'll be good replacements, yep. The ghost shifts--up in the mid and upper range, it may take two clicks to lock the gear in. It works...but it can be a challenge. I doubt I'll change my CLEMshifters, but they are a transitional species, maybe.

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Reid <reid...@earthlink.net> wrote:

So can the S2s be used as a replacement for the stock shifters that came on the Clems? My wife has a Clementine that she just LOVES, but the stock shifters have always given lots of "ghost" shifts, as discussed on this list some time back. I would sure like to replace the shifters with something that would be mounted in the same place for easy shifting, but that would not have the problems.

Reid

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[Lungimsam]

I have really enjoyed my Silver bar end and also the Silver DT shifters. So elegant. So smooth shifting.

Looking forward to checking these out!

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Short answer is: New washers seem fine. Longer answer is below.

THey're still not breakproof, but they're a different plastic than the early ones, and none of these has broken. I've got a bristly take on those washers, probably not a popular one, but here it is--

Plastic (of some sort) is an ideal material for a spacer/washer for this use. The old cruddy plastic was good enough unless it was abused, and when it failed the shifter still worked...and plastic failure posed to rider risk. Any hardware store has flat, wave, and split washers that can slide right in there and be a metal substitute and work well, but if one's thumbs are as big as one's big toes and the rest of the fingers are proportional, this rig can prove a little fussy, and it lacks the "key" that fits into the rectangular hole. (Tho once in place, it's solid). But Plastic Washer #2 has, so far after 4 years, proven to work 100 percent without breaking).

This doesn't mean the first was defo. It was exactly the same as the original washer in the SunTour shifter. It just means it's more "America-proof."

We sell those washers cheap in pairs, and it's those washers that'll go in the Silver-2 shifters. So they could be bought as backups, but considering their track record so far and the low-risk of a failure, buying more than one set of replacement washers is just supplying your heirs with tiny nothings to toss "later on."

On a more personal level and if I can NOT speak for RBW for a second: I LIKE stuff that can wear out or break (as long as it's not constant) and that can be replaced and made good as new again. I did it for years with Campagnolo parts, and ball bearings in general, now and then a cup or a cone race.

[Reid]

Grant -- Thank you for the info. I'll keep an eye on the S2 progress and give them a try when available.

Reid

On Saturday, October 15, 2016 at 9:59:31 PM UTC-7, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:

They'll be good replacements, yep. The ghost shifts--up in the mid and upper range, it may take two clicks to lock the gear in. It works...but it can be a challenge. I doubt I'll change my CLEMshifters, but they are a transitional species, maybe.

On Sat, Oct 15, 2016 at 9:20 PM, Reid <reid...@earthlink.net> wrote:

So can the S2s be used as a replacement for the stock shifters that came on the Clems? My wife has a Clementine that she just LOVES, but the stock shifters have always given lots of "ghost" shifts, as discussed on this list some time back. I would sure like to replace the shifters with something that would be mounted in the same place for easy shifting, but that would not have the problems.

Reid

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[Ray Varella]

One use that hasn't been mentioned, I use an early Suntour power ratchet thumbshifter for my drag brake on my tandem.
I'll definitely be in for a set or two.

Ray
Vallejo CA

[Bill Lindsay]

Grant

In the BLUG post, the sample/prototype looks like a white plastic.  Was that white plastic sample made by 3D printing?  Or was it an SLA(*)?  Or did some artisan carve something?  I know the actual shifters will be aluminum, and I think it's cast aluminum.  Is that right?

(*) SLA does not mean Symbionese Liberation Army in this context.  It's stereolithography-something.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Grant Petersen]

We send the place an SLA file and they make it in 3D plastic. It's in SoCal, called...ForeCast, I think. It's a good way to go before metal..!

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[Garth]

For Grant, I do wonder why the position of the new shifter is not like the original, as in directly over the bar instead of well forward of it ? I was so happy to see the shape of the shifter being like he original that I overloked the mount puts the actual shifter well forward of the bar I, just like the Pauls thumb shifter mounts and alike. I missing something as to why the shifter needs to be extended and not on top of the clamp ? Help me understand this , as for the life of me when I see this design being presented and continued(pauls, vo,ird) I gotta wonder, "what on earth are they thinking ?" !!!!

[Garth]

I am also curious as to why the washers for the new ones are not metal , as are the original ST thumbies ?

[masmojo]

I am guessing that the "plastic" lever that Bill mentioned above was made through a rapid prototyping method which yields similar results to a 3D print, but is a different process.
You know I love my silver shifters and friction is fine, but I am also OK with indexing, in fact the old Deore XT thumb shifters were about as perfect as could be. When I am touring or just cruising about town if it takes a second to coax the chain into gear no biggie, but out on the trail many times you need to shift quickly & it really needs to be pretty much brainless. That being the case, something that can easily be done. Why not? My main issue with indexing comes from the move away from simple thumb shifters to "rapid fire" trigger shifters.
In '93 I got some Mavic wishbone shifters, they had little interchangable disks in them that corresponded to different index systems. Just use the disc, that supported your system, my bike still has those shifters & they still work great! Not sure why Dia Comp (or Sun Race) could not come up with a ratchet shifter that actually indexes using a similar concept!?

[Bill Lindsay]

Back in 1983-1985, thumb shifters were right on top of the handlebar.  The very first Shimano Indexed thumbshifters (6-speed SIS), were out in front by a bit.  Just about everybody at that time thought that was better.  I sure thought it was better.  I do not recall ever wishing somebody moved the shifter back to being on top of the bars.  Offset somewhat always made more sense to me.  Now I admit that I haven't bothered to re-ask that question in the last decade or so, but now that I do re-ask the question, I can't think of anything that would be achieved by switching back to on top of the bar.  Looking at my hand and where my thumb is, I can't think of anything good that would come out of making the change backwards (physically and temporally).  That's what I'm thinking, Garth.  What are you thinking?  :)

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Shifter pos: The "fwd" pos works better, doesn't put the lever too high in the "up" pos. It puts it farther away in the D-pos, but still easily in reach.
The lack of metal washer: Ideally it would be oil-stuffed bronze, but that would've been an underappreciated black-hole money-sucker. I've said going-on googolplex times that the current blackish (as opposed to dark taupish) washers don't crack—or, haven't yet in 4-years. I hope nobody takes that as a challenge. But what I said in the catalogue about 'em still stands: They're fine, and if anybody is heck-bent on metal, it's easy to DUI with hardware-store litsy-bitsies. This was described in an old RR and describing it again would seem to convey that there's a need where there ain't.
I don't mean to invoke the oft-used-as-excuse "perfection is the enemy of good" -- but in this case, the relentless pursuit of a metal washer in that shape--or the redesign of that part of the shifter so as not to need it -- would have been, as they also say, "the straw that broke the camel's back." This was one heck of a project in terms of time and money and stress, and....hail, Plastic!

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 3:37:57 AM UTC-7, Garth wrote:

[LBleriot]

Meh.  I can't get excited about this version since it seems that given the new shape DT mounting is an afterthought.  To my eye, these are thumbies and would look silly on a Ram, Rom, Homer or Roadeo DT.

[Bill Lindsay]

LBleriot missed the point of what to get excited about.  

Rivendell still has 82 sets of Silver 1's.  The only reason a lover of Silver 1's should get excited is that the BLUG post makes clear that the old mold no longer exists.  If that bums you out or freaks you out, you should treat yourself to two or three sets of Silver 1.0 shifters to last you for a while.  Several years ago I found a guy blowing out N.O.S. Suntour Sprints, the originals that the Silver 1.0s copied.  I bought 5 sets, and now I wish I had bought more.  Now you know that the End Of Life (EOL) announcement has been made for the Silver 1's, so now is the time to do your last-time buy.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Garth]

  Grant and Bill, Since I have used the original shifters since they came out, I have not used anything else and have never thought about them needing to be changed. That's where I'm coming from. You know, if it ain't broke and it works for you , you don't set out to fix it, that's all.

    FWIW, With Alba bars I have mine mounted downward at about 80-90 degrees at the inside of the curve, which makes it feel very natural to use since I have from there to the bar end for my hands. I have reverse brake levers. So a forward extension would mean they'd need to be used another way. This would be simply an unknown to me, but I'm sure some way would present itself to work.  I would use these in a similar inside-the-curve position with albastache bars also.

  As far as the washer, and since I know nothing of manufacturing things, I just assumed you had each made so I assumed that shape would be as simple to make metal as plastic. It seems from your words the washer is not specifically made for this shifter , so that explains that.

  

      As a side general forum/group/family/friends note, I think of the Cookie Monster . Everyone knows he likes and knows nothing but cookies , don't they ? .... at least to the Cookie Monster everyone knows this. But not everyone else does know he likes and knows cookies, so when presented with a box of crackers the Cookie Monster is dismayed, "What is this, it's as if you don't even know Me ? "
Ahaahahahahaahahahha !   and so it goes .....  smile !




 

[Patrick Moore]

I agree that they will make only makeshift dt shifters -- too bad. Me, I like the shape of the old ones for bar end shifting too, but for that purpose, the new ones will work at least as well.

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[LBleriot]

Bill--Actually, I do think I get the point. My friends at Riv decided to change the shape of the shifter in light of the fact that the original mold has worn out. They could have simply made a new mold in the shape of the original which, I believe, is optimized for DT mounting and more than acceptable for barend mounting. Instead they changed the shape of the mold which, as Grant points, is no longer optimal for DT mounting, but is optimized for thumbies. To me this is a disappointment since I use them as DT shifters. So, like it's predecessor, a beautiful piece of kit that works flawlessly is now lost to posterity. Meh.

[Dave Johnston]

For the downtube you could always get the ENE Ciclo Gran Compe Downtube Shifters. I think they look cooler and they haven't been made for 17 yrs so presumable the mold isn't near wearing out.

http://store.somafab.com/enecidosh.html

Hard to believe we have choices in new friction shifters.

-Dave

[Grant Petersen]

Downtube shifters are so much better than the original Campy shifters that were mounted on the seat stays. But even they were breakthroughs for the time--for the first time ever, a rider should shift remotely. We have a bike here with those "Cambio Corsa" shifters, and anybody who comes by can try it. It's a mindblowing.crackup.

But it WAS the first cable-actuated shifter, so you didn't have to get off the bike and change gears on a stopped bike with your fingers.

Putting shifters on the downtube made shifting 10,000 percent easier, and if you think that's an exagerration, you just haven't shifted the Cambio Corsa.

Shifters could have stopped at the downtube, but whether it's a good, excellent, or fantastic place to shift depends on how far away they are, the state of your lower back, and how smooth the terrain is. They're pretty good for low-bar road bikes, because you're already leaning, and reaching down there is actually relaxing.

But whether you ride an upright or a drop bar, when the bars are higher the reach is longer and they're less convenient. So, as you do the things that generally increase comfort and get the bars higher, your hands get farther away from them, so it's less convenient.   Since our bikes are skewed for comfort (at no expense anywhere else, of course I'd say...), it wouldn't make sense to invest in a "classically shaped" downtube shifter.

We do have Silver-1's in...and Dia-Compe has the Campyish ENE downtuber, and Shimano still makes 'em--probably for triathletes--and those are all great shifters.

So it just made sense for us to develop a shifter that works on the downtube while looking out of place with the classics; and works great as inboard or outboard thumbies, bar-ends, or the underestimated ultra-position on the sleeves of a drop bar.

Anyway...they're not meant to be divisive. We sunk our loot and time into a shifter we're jazzed about, and it will do no harm and won't exactly duplicate what's already out there, which is also key..!

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[Patrick Moore]

Good to know that the Dia Compes are still available. 

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 7:12 AM, David Banzer <daba...@gmail.com> wrote:

For those who still want the traditional downtube shifter shape, Dia Compe makes them with the same ratcheting friction internals as Silver shifters. It's cosmetically a little different, but functionally it's the same shifter.
I'd guess this is a little bit why Riv is making something new instead of making the same shape if they need to invest in a new mold.
I'm looking forward to these!
David
River Grove, IL

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 2:50:14 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

I agree that they will make only makeshift dt shifters -- too bad. Me, I like the shape of the old ones for bar end shifting too, but for that purpose, the new ones will work at least as well.

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 12:45 PM, LBleriot <gary....@att.net> wrote:

Meh.  I can't get excited about this version since it seems that given the new shape DT mounting is an afterthought.  To my eye, these are thumbies and would look silly on a Ram, Rom, Homer or Roadeo DT.

On Friday, October 14, 2016 at 2:08:31 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:

The BLUG has a long write up and description of the Silver 2 shifters.  One big take home is the Silver 1 shifter mold is shot, so those will be going away.  So, if you love Silver shifters, stock up now.  The Silver 2 looks like it'll be a way better thumb shifter, a somewhat better barcon shifter, and an amusingly ironic downtube shifter.  Most importantly (to me), is that if you want to embolden Rivendell Bicycle Works to keep putting their money where their brains are, then reward them by buying a pair or two of Silver 2's and put them into your personal inventory.  When the need arises, get them from your stock.  If Riv gets a lot of early adopters buying them, then they'll have the confidence and the money to make the next part that you can't get anywhere else.  Grant tells you on the BLUG how to get on an email list for updates on the Silver 2.  

Bill habitual-early-adopter Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

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[LBleriot]

It's all good, but for me the originals epitomized an "ah, brilliant!" moment you guys are known for.  The replacements, for me, for my use, for my style of riding not so much.  

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[Ryan Ray]

I like the old down tube style ones and the new thimble ones. Both are nice.

[Grant Petersen]

If now and then or from the start we call them Thimble Shifters---if we or I EVER do--Ryan gets a free pair.

Since 'tis the season for voting, the polls are open till Saturday at 10 o'clock California time.

Silver THIMBLES

The SILVER part is alredy in the genes. That's the brand. Model would be THIMBLE, and maybe we'd use THIMBLE only for the thumb-operated style.

so you can vote anonymously without hurting Ryan's feelings, email gr...@rivbike.com directly, and only if you like THIMBLE. No other suggestions, please, no explanations, I'm not going to open up the email unless you say THIMBLE OPEN, and then, sure, whatever. But I'm looking for a certain undisclosed number between 45 and 48. That's the threshhold.

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Ryan Ray <ryan...@gmail.com> wrote:

I like the old down tube style ones and the new thimble ones. Both are nice.

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[Bill Lindsay]

Since there are 80 sets of the originals on the shelf, it seems like a good time to buy a back up set, since you like them that much.  If you'd rather not risk the $46, I'll buy an extra set and put your name on them.  If you need them, let me know.  I promise I'll save them until they are my last set before I use them.  If I've already used them when you ask me for them, I'll say 'tough luck'.  Let me know if you want my help. 

[Rusty Click]

I believe they look like a "Goose Neck".  No offense, or vote intended, just saying.  I do like the alliterative nature of the "THIMBLE THUMBIE" though.

On Thursday, October 20, 2016 at 7:12:20 PM UTC-4, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:

If now and then or from the start we call them Thimble Shifters---if we or I EVER do--Ryan gets a free pair.

Since 'tis the season for voting, the polls are open till Saturday at 10 o'clock California time.

Silver THIMBLES

The SILVER part is alredy in the genes. That's the brand. Model would be THIMBLE, and maybe we'd use THIMBLE only for the thumb-operated style.

so you can vote anonymously without hurting Ryan's feelings, email gr...@rivbike.com directly, and only if you like THIMBLE. No other suggestions, please, no explanations, I'm not going to open up the email unless you say THIMBLE OPEN, and then, sure, whatever. But I'm looking for a certain undisclosed number between 45 and 48. That's the threshhold.

On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Ryan Ray <ryan...@gmail.com> wrote:

I like the old down tube style ones and the new thimble ones. Both are nice.

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[Chris Lampe 2]

Did Suntour have a thumbshifter in the 83-84 timeframe that doesn't have the power ratchet or whatever it's called?  I have a set of levers with "the band" that came off an 83 MTB (that I miss) but I never made the connection that they might have that mechanism.  

They click smoothly in one direction and are a bit stiff in the other direction.  Does this indicate anything about their condition?  I've been thinking about pursuing my 26" LHT fantasy and using one of these as a downtube shifter for the crankset, if these work as downtube shifters.  

[Patrick Moore]

Who is he talking to?

[Julian]

Patrick, 

Who is whom talking to? 

Are you asking about Bill Lindsay's post about buying and holding? If so, I think, (but am not positive), that he is responding to LBleriot's (whoever that is) posts lamenting the end of the road for Silvers V1. 

It does get a bit confusing in the Google interface when folks do not include the post to which they're responding in their replies. 

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, Il 

On Friday, October 21, 2016 at 12:50:14 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

Who is he talking to?

[LBleriot]

I think Bill Lindsay was making a kind offer to buy and hold a backup set of the V1 shifters for me.  It's nice to know the Walnut Creek Gang has my back.  Call me a crank, but I just hate when good things are "improved" out of their original purpose.  Ah well.  Progress.

[David Banzer]

If it clicks, it has a power ratchet. The ratcheting mechanism in the originals is the same as the original bar-ends, which is to say that the Silver 2 shifters will have a more refined ratcheting mechanism than the original Suntour shifters. I can't remember off the top of my head, but there might have a later Suntour thumbshifter version that had the mechanism in it as the Suntour Sprint dt shifters.
Who's a Suntour expert around here?
David
River Grove, IL

[Garth]

  Chris, as far as I know 1983 was the(pics below) first year of the ST Power thumb shifters, all said "Suntour Power Thumb Shifter Pat." on the top of the washer.  The top hand screw adjusts the tension. Being a bit stiff of the bike is not an indicator of anything as even brand news are quite stiff. 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Zw7R_DKrWDM/Ua-UV-Pw0nI/AAAAAAAABJg/s7738r2RW0M/s1600/gear+shifters+001.jpg
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/401167925619-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

[Garth]

  David,  I have both the original thumbies from 1983 and some later 1985 XC models, these have a fairing on the mount and the ends are rubber coated, very nice !  I also have both the Sprint and Superbe DT ones.  

    Interestingly, the thumb ones have a 20mm ratchet inside, the DT ones are about 16.5mm.  I always have preferred the thumb shifter feel, not the shape but the mechanism feels different to me, maybe because it is larger. 

    I was assuming the Silver 2 would use the 20mm ratchet of the original w/metal washer on top but it appears to use the smaller DT sized ratchet, so that explains the plastic further , it's the same as the current Silver shifters.  

   I don't have my ST bar ends anymore, destroyed in a crash and bike taken by insurance co. long ago .......  I suspect they too had the larger 20mm ratchet and ST used it for the thumbies. Just a guess, someone with a bar end could measure theirs if they are curious.

[Chris Lampe 2]

Thanks!   I have about three boxes of small parts and the one shifter I found doesn't have that washer, although I'm sure it's in there somewhere.  Other than that, everything is identical to the one posted.  

[masmojo]

I like the direction Grant's going & I don't think I am wrong in saying the the bike industry is swiftly moving away from downtube shifters and I am guessing they are not relevant at all on contemporary bikes. So, then I am guessing that the majority of people who like the old style are reaching the Twilight of their riding days, riding vintage equipment & likely not looking for new shifters anywaz!
If they are as Bill suggested, stock up now! But, honestly power ratchet shifters are easily had on ebay in a pinch.

[Patrick Moore]

Don't carry this line of thought too far! Steel, hand-built wheels, wool clothing, friction shifting, leather shoes, fixed drivetrains, lugged frames, -- you can go on and on about technology that one could argue is in its twilight.

There are good reasons for downtube shifters that remain relevant even in a world of electric button shifting, just as there are good reasons for lugs, leather, wool, and 32 spoke wheels. The bike industry is rapidly moving away from just about everything that Rivendell sells.

Patrick Moore, for whom dt shifters are Hi Tek -- coming back from a brief climbing ride on the '99 67'/75" fixie, I youngsters on fixed gear bikes heading for the really steep climbs.

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 6:16 PM, masmojo <mas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I like the direction Grant's going & I don't think I am wrong in saying the the bike industry is swiftly moving away from downtube shifters and I am guessing they are not relevant at all on contemporary bikes. So, then I am guessing that the majority of people who like the old style are reaching the Twilight of their riding days,  riding vintage equipment & likely not looking for new shifters anywaz!
If they are as Bill suggested, stock up now! But, honestly power ratchet shifters are easily had on ebay in a pinch.

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[Pondero]

Even as a long time downtube shifter, I really like what I read about the Silver2. In fact, I ponder using one or two on my upcoming Bantam AdventureBike. Would it be a mistake to try and use this shifter for a 10speed rear cassette? If so, I'm going to buy at least one pair anyway. I'll have no problem putting them to good use.

Chris Johnson
Sanger, Texas

[Lungimsam]

I tried using down tubes on my Sam and it was fun and definitely an interesting and totally new experience in shifting. I could not get used to it so I went back to bar and shifting. But I do like the super clean look having less housing and the buttery smooth shifting. Now that I have a Rivendell bike with dt shifter bosses on it I might try it again sometime and give it more time to see if I can get used to it. I really love that clean look. I was wobbly on the bike down tube shifting and it was it felt strange moving my torso that way although all I had to do was drop my hand and the shifter was right there but still i had to do torso stabilizing to keep a straight line while reaching down for the grab.

[dougP]

"Would it be a mistake to try and use this shifter for a 10speed rear cassette? "

Now that's an interesting question.  My experience with "10 speeds" is limited to 2 x 5 drivetrains.  BUT there are people friction shifting 10 speed cogs, & others not liking friction on 8 or 9.  The ratchet may give enough feedback to work with 10.  With the old BarCons that I've used, the ratchet gave me decent feedback on "where I was" yet allowed fine adjustment.  Hopefully the S2s will be in that general range. 

My 8 speed Ultegras on Paul's thumbies are getting a bit dodgy so I can't wait for the S2s. 

dougP

[Matt B.]

I wholeheartedly agree with Patrick, downtube shifting has it's place despite all the other options out there now.  I prefer DT shifters when using drop bars, despite being 6' and riding largish (62-64cm) frames.  I like the much simpler cable routing and find that downtube shifting induces somewhat more mindful shifting practices, though is by no means inconvenient compared to bar ends.  I hope I'm not in the twilight of my riding days!  :)

On Saturday, October 22, 2016 at 8:24:46 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

Don't carry this line of thought too far! Steel, hand-built wheels, wool clothing, friction shifting, leather shoes, fixed drivetrains, lugged frames, -- you can go on and on about technology that one could argue is in its twilight.

There are good reasons for downtube shifters that remain relevant even in a world of electric button shifting, just as there are good reasons for lugs, leather, wool, and 32 spoke wheels. The bike industry is rapidly moving away from just about everything that Rivendell sells.

Patrick Moore, for whom dt shifters are Hi Tek -- coming back from a brief climbing ride on the '99 67'/75" fixie, I youngsters on fixed gear bikes heading for the really steep climbs.

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 6:16 PM, masmojo <mas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I like the direction Grant's going & I don't think I am wrong in saying the the bike industry is swiftly moving away from downtube shifters and I am guessing they are not relevant at all on contemporary bikes. So, then I am guessing that the majority of people who like the old style are reaching the Twilight of their riding days,  riding vintage equipment & likely not looking for new shifters anywaz!
If they are as Bill suggested, stock up now! But, honestly power ratchet shifters are easily had on ebay in a pinch.

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[Bill Lindsay]

77 sets left!

[Wayne Naha]

Well, I am done with downtube shifters.  I have one bike with downtube shifters, and that's going to change when these SS2's become available.  Even back in the day I was never all that enamored of them, and now I just can't even deal.  If you love 'em, more power to ya, bro, but they are not for me.  To me, downtube shifting only makes sense when riding drop bars in the drop position.  Being that I am all upright now, that downtube is just outta reach.  Also, I will be swapping the SS2's for the Sunrace shifters currently on my Clem.  I'm not for sure they are the problem here, but I'm ready to try something new...

 

El Cerrito, CA

[Lungimsam]

I love my Silver Shifters.
But an LBS says the ratchet ain't strong enough and they autoshift too much. Says the originals they are based on ( I think those are the ones ) stay put better. I might try them sometime.
I do get some autoshifts, but cannot say exactly why, thought I think it is mostly operator error.

Anyway. I have two pair of the Silver barends and one dt. Interested in trying originals or seeing whatelse gets developed next. Though I can see myself maybe thinking about getting another backup set if I get more bike money maybe from selling new 700c Compass tires and new 700c LX/A23 wheelset here soon.

[Lungimsam]

I hope they keep the D rings. So convenient for on the bike tightening!! No screwdriver necessary!!!

[Grant Petersen]

This is an early version of the tightener screw. I'm not sure I like the options it provides--rather confusing. The current one has a pentalobe head (google it until we get the newer version up there).

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Lungimsam <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

I hope they keep the D rings. So convenient for on the bike tightening!! No screwdriver necessary!!!

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[David Johnston]

Pentelope? Does that mean I can't tighten without a special tool if it
loosens on the road? That would be a bad idea. Cyclists have been
using the slot and D-ring for decades with no major confusion.

-Dave

On 10/23/16, Grant Petersen <gran...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is an early version of the tightener screw. I'm not sure I like the
> options it provides--rather confusing. The current one has a pentalobe head
> (google it until we get the newer version up there).
>
> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Lungimsam <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I hope they keep the D rings. So convenient for on the bike tightening!!
>> No screwdriver necessary!!!
>>
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[Julian]

Grant, 

I'm another voice against the pentalobe idea. No other fastener on the bike uses it, it will require a special tool just for the shifter, making maintenance a pain - there's not really a reason to do this, other than theft, perhaps, and if you're still using a D-ring than that's moot. The slot head and D-ring works great -- stick with it -- please! 

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Garth]

  Either the shifter stays put or it does not.  If the chain is really off a bit you can hear it, but a good shifter should still not autoshift easily , a not as good shifter apparently, will.

I have not seen the ratchet inside of a Silver shifter to compare with the ST DT version.  As I mentioned earlier, the ST DT version's ratchet is about 16.5mm in diameter and the ST Power ratchet thumb version is 20mm, but the teeth are notably bigger, more bite to them. I don't get autoshifts with my ST thumbies and never did with the ST bar end shifters either. I found even the ST DT shifters did not seem to hold as well as the bar end and thumbie.  Do the bigger teeth and a bigger ratchet mean it hold better ?  Apparently yes.  

I was hoping the new Silver 2 shifters would use the larger ratchet but it seems like a continuation of the original .  I understand why and all that .... I'd love to see them just like the original though and no, perfection as no enemy :)  And no weird pentawhatever screw on top for goodnees sake !!

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The Pantaloon screwhead was...not serious. I'd never even heard about it until I googled "unusual screw heads" or something like that. D-ring and slot, and the slot is sized for a dime.

[Julian]

Phew!  Existential crisis averted.     :) 

The virtual communication problem of no facial/voice cues making humor hard to spot strikes again! 

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Garth]

  Ahahaahahahhaha !!!   thanks for the laughs Grant !
 
 Yeah, that woud be right there with a diagascrew or a bombahead , the list of odd screws, real or not could be endless   .  . . . .  ahahahahahaaha !!!

[Patrick Moore]

My Silvers Version 1 (mounted on bar end pods) do loosen, as do so many other shifters I've used including the archetypal Power  . Me, I used Blue Loctite and button head allen screws, and put the D ring screws in my bin of small spare parts.

OTOH, my Simplex Retrofictions -- very fine ratchets -- did not loosen once tightened (and they shifted 10 very well, albeit with a lot of lever travel).

IIRC, the Power Ratchets, at least the versions I've used, had coarser detentes than the Silvers or the Retrofictions -- isn't that right? I do like the fine tuning of the Silvers (as bar end shifters, I find them very good even off road in bumpy terrain) but I don't recall the PRs being problematical shifting 9 on dirt, either.

What I absolutely need is Silver V 1.0s to shift my S3X hubs. Mounted to seat tube of course -- where else, for heaven's sake? (As I told someone, shifting there looks like you are scratching yourself, but it's a good place to mount the shifting bits when you want an easy on-and-off cable routing to the hub.)

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[Patrick Moore]

Oh modern earnestness! It took me in.

[Scott McLain]

Is this the same thing as the Silver 1?  Gotta love the Silver 1.  I might have to get an extra couple if they are going out of production all together.  Maybe Dia-Compe will keep it going?

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes that looks like the Silver 1.  Riv got told that the casting mold was worn out, and so Riv would have to buy a new one.  That's why Riv designed the Silver2 THIMBLE.  If the manufacturer was telling the truth and the mold really is used up, then presumably the Silver1 shifters will start to get more and more scarce.  Rivendell is down to 73 pairs of Silver1's, so you still have time. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Lee Legrand]

Hey Bill,

Does the silver shifters work on a 9 speed cog cassette?  I have heard that 9 speed change using a friction shifter is too much.  What are your thoughts?

--

[Reed Kennedy]

Hey Lee,

I (and many others here) run friction with these shifters and nine speeds with great aplomb. In fact, I have a set on a bike with a ten speed cassette and it seems to work even *better* there!

More on that if you're curious:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/iL_kdYL-AWM

But yeah, I wouldn't worry one bit about using them for 9 speed.

Reed

[Bill Lindsay]

I agree with Reed. Silver downtube shifters are great with 9 speed. That doesn't guarantee you will love them. I find operating a downtube shifter is about as hard as tying ones shoes. It's pretty easy. Some people run Velcro shoes anyway and some people insist on index. I know how to tie my shoes. 😊

[Patrick Moore]

I use them on bumpy dirt roads over a home-made (ie, ignore the ramps; it's a 15-30)) 9 speed cassette, and they are wonderful -- better than the old Power Ratchets, IME.

[lum gim fong]

1. Since RBW is into calling their bikes . " hobo bikes". How about calling the shifter "_______'s toothpick"?
Name your favorite hobo in the blank space.

2.
Since RBW is into calling their bikes . " Country bikes". How about calling the shifter "_______'s toothpick"?
Use your favorite Southern USA sounding name or nickname in the blank. Earleigh, or Elmer, or Rosco, or Skeeter, etc.

[lum gim fong]

Silver Bindlestiff's Toothpick.

[lum gim fong]

Elect your next cog with the amazing "Silver Ballot Lever"!

[olof...@gmail.com]

The Silver Bullet lever - always finds the right gear.

Pardon

Olof Stroh
Uppsala Sweden

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[Bill Lindsay]

On October 28th, there were 73 pairs of Silver 1 shifters remaining.  Now there are 64.  At a sell-rate of about 10 per week, they'll be gone by Christmas.  

[Edwin W]

They are just so durned good looking I am trying to figure out where I could put them! Ornamentation!

Might try a single stem shifter on my 1x8 Appaloosa.

Bill (and anyone else): What are good options for mounting a single one on a nitto stem?

[Lee Legrand]

I just ordered a pair.  I probably got the last one.

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[lum gim fong]

These shifters are great. The only downside I have experienced is that after two years the finish is starting to get a little pockmarked with corrosion. I feel like that's a little early for that to be happening.however I do ride on dry salted winter roads sometimes during the winter. Maybe that has something to do with it.

[Patrick Moore]

It must be the salt; mine are still as new-looking after 2+ years (dry desert climate).

Patrick Moore, in ABQ, NM where it is raining this morning.

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 8:44 AM, lum gim fong <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

These shifters are great. The only downside I have experienced is that after two years the finish is starting to get a little pockmarked with corrosion. I feel like that's a little early for that to be happening.however I do ride on dry salted winter roads sometimes during the winter. Maybe that has something to do with it.

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[Paul Clifton]

Can anyone confirm that if I buy the barend kit, I can still install the levers on the downtube if I wanted?

I think I read something like that at some point, but can't find it again to confirm.

I've got downtube bosses on my bikes already but might need to dig up a cable stops for one of them.

Paul in ATL

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes.  When you buy the bar end kit, you get a set of downtube shifters and a set of bar end pods.  

Note that the downtube shifters are $46, and the bar end pod are $38.  $46+$38 = $84, and the bar end kit is $84.  It's the same parts.  

[masmojo]

A few things:
First, yes the bar end Silver Shifters are basically the same thing as the downtube shifters, with the bar end pods. But,it should be noted that, the bar end pod replaces the little travel stop washer thingy that cones with the Silver Shifters when ordered in the downtube configuration. So it's the same, just different.
You could use the silvers on a 10 speed cluster, if you have a suitable derailleur, but you might want to use something like the Wolftooth Tanpan to handle the needed additional cable travel. I personally just used the new Dia-Compe 11s shifter that VO is selling, downtube & shifts smooth as butter with the XTR derailleur.
I have the SS1s on my Drakkar & I love'em, but they do stick out rather a lot when mounted on bar pods and I have nastily poked people (not on purpose) with them while riding the train. I welcome the new compacty, ergoness!

[David Johnston]

If you buy the bar end kit you should buy the "little travel stop
washer thingy " to go along with it for downtube use. Riv sells that
piece separately. It is round with a tab that stick out and a square
hole that fits over your frame boss.

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[Bill Lindsay]

Dave,

Not exactly true.  You do need a different shifter washer thingy for bar-end setup vs downtube setup, but when you buy the kit, you get BOTH.  Put item #17089 in your basket and you will see what I mean.  When you buy the bar-end KIT in your basket, all it does it put a set of downtube shifters in your basket (which has the right washer thingy for downtube) and it puts a set of bar end pods in your basket (which has the right washer thingy for bar-end setup).  You can use them either way and you have a set of extra washer thingies for setting them up the other way later.  

If you bought a complete bike with barend shifters and want to move them to downtube, then you'll need to go buy the right washer thingies.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Lee Legrand]

Bill is right.

 

That is what happened when I order the kit.  The shifters and pods were added to the kit list but they all had zero dollars, except the kit. I get mine Monday.

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[masmojo]

Cool

[Paul Clifton]

Thanks for the details Bill, Lee, Dave and masmojo. I picked up the kit. Looking forward to some smooth shifting.

Paul in ATL

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[lum gim fong]

I have used them as DT, Noodle,  Alba, and Moustache bar ends. They are fantastic shifters and so good looking.

[Grant Petersen]

The pricing of Silver parts and kits is "non-strategic" and is supposed to be person-friendly, so you don't feel like a bad money-manger for buying components separately. A critic could see the whole shebang price as not offering any discount, but we go at it from the other way. It's hard to apply the same coat of paint to all items and circumstances--like, we often-especially-these-days try to offer early-buyer prices, or "faith buyer" prices to those who pay for bikes or frames before then arrive. That pricing is driven entirely by my wanting my wife, who pays bills, to have a less miserable existence.    In the early years I was fouling up the books myself, and that, combined with a brand new baby was some incentive to drop out of her job as assistant head of a school (which had tons of future-promise) and stay home, watch baby, do RBW books).

But she hates it and works uncomplainingly and fails to hide her stress at crunch time. That leads to early-pay discounts and less guilt for me and less stress for her.

It all works out! Except that RBW derailed her from what would have been a more satisfying life...alas, and boo on me for that.

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[Pondero]

I think I signed up properly for the email updates. But I haven't received any updates yet, so I'm not sure. I don't want to miss any news, and I want to make sure to get at least one pair from the initial release. Just as a check, has anyone else received email updates?

Chris Johnson

Sanger, Texas

[dougP]

Same here.  I assume when there's news we'll hear about it.  Grant did mention that delivery was a ways off. 

dougP

[WETH]

I, too, think I signed up and have received no update, so you are not alone. I also just bought a pair of the original Silver Shifters. I think Bill Lindsey should get a commission! ;). I look forward to learning first hand what the fuss is about.

[WETH]

Lindsay....sorry Bill

[Bill Lindsay]

Rivendell does not have me on commission, but trust that they are way nicer to me than I deserve. 

On Tuesday, November 8, 2016 at 3:43:35 PM UTC-8, WETH wrote:

Lindsay....sorry Bill

[R. Alexis]

Those shifters look nice. Look forward to seeing how the final product will look. I will definitely get a couple sets. I would get the current Silver V.1 shifters, but It has just been within the last couple years that I mounted the Suntour Sprint, shifters on my Schwinn Voyageur so I don't see a need at the moment to stock up. I got those way back just before Rivendell got some and started offering them when I worked at a local bike shop. I have been mulling over the idea of rebuilding my Rivendell Mountain with a set of S.O.S. (Silver on Soma) thumb shifters along with Phil Wood Rivy hubs etc, but I a hesitant to redo the Suntour XC-Pro, Wilderness Trail Bikes build on it already. May be a new Rivendell build out is in order.

Reginald Alexis

On Friday, October 14, 2016 at 1:08:31 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:

The BLUG has a long write up and description of the Silver 2 shifters.  One big take home is the Silver 1 shifter mold is shot, so those will be going away.  So, if you love Silver shifters, stock up now.  The Silver 2 looks like it'll be a way better thumb shifter, a somewhat better barcon shifter, and an amusingly ironic downtube shifter.  Most importantly (to me), is that if you want to embolden Rivendell Bicycle Works to keep putting their money where their brains are, then reward them by buying a pair or two of Silver 2's and put them into your personal inventory.  When the need arises, get them from your stock.  If Riv gets a lot of early adopters buying them, then they'll have the confidence and the money to make the next part that you can't get anywhere else.  Grant tells you on the BLUG how to get on an email list for updates on the Silver 2.  

Bill habitual-early-adopter Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Grant Petersen]

Reginald! You're still around! I associate you with my garage and holding my then toddler old Anna like a football when trying to work...that was your era. Thanks for hanging in!

--

[R. Alexis]

Yes, I am still here. You probably remember me from the back and forth on my Rivendell Mountain and some of the possible changes in the build I was requesting or from sending you a box of Shimano down tube shifters. Still keeping up on things. Look forward to the final product that is the referenced Silver V.2 shifter.

Reginald "Frictiion Shifting Vet" Alexis

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