My Debate

[Bill in Roswell GA]

The little devil on my shoulder awoke when I saw that Jeff Lyon wants to move some L'Avecaise frames out with fork and headset (customer gets to pick the single, solid paint color). I'd been thinking Riv for years, but never justified pulling the trigger (I'm pretty happy with my stable, but I'm missing something to do bikepacking with - was thinking Wolverine, but then - you know - that NYT article came out; plus I just got rid of the monthly boat anchor at the local marina).

So, given the choice for the same price and knowing I can't go wrong either way, would you pick a Riv or L'Avecaise? 

I'm just interested in hearing some different points of view because my feeble brain isn't capable of thinking of every angle of consideration!

Cheers,

Bill in Roswell, GA 

[Ian A]

A Riv and an L'Avecaise will be significantly contrasting frames. L'Avecaise having the flexible tubing that can give such a nice feel. The trail numbers also contrast massively.

If you want an American handcrafted, low trail, randonneur style bicycle, the Jeff Lyon option clearly is most suitable. Assuming you are dead set on a purchase at this time and you don't already own something that fits the brief, I can't see any reason not to seize the opportunity. As long as you are buying based on enjoying it and not based on buying simply because it's a great deal, that is.

Disclosure: I am often wrong.

Ian A/Canada

[Matt Gilkey]

I have owned a 56 cm Atlantis and I currently own a Jeff Lyon L'avecaise. I loved the Atlantis and primarily used it as a mountain bike. If I were forced to own only one bike I would have to pick the Atlantis for it's versatility. That being said I absolutely love my L'avecaise, and will never sell it. The feeling of the L'avecaise on the road is amazing. The handling is fantastic and it is by far the most comfortable "road" bike I have ever owned. And Jeff was great to work with, but so are the riv folks.

I would say the choice comes down to what type of bike you are looking for. If I were in the market for mostly dirt road rides and touring I would get a riv. If I wanted a comfortable road bike that is also great on dirt roads I would choose the L'avecaise. I feel that perhaps riv's are more versatile, but I love the feel of the L'avecaise. Hope that helps with the tough choice.

-Matt

[Bill Lindsay]

What debate? The obvious answer is both. The L'Avecaise is not a bike packing bike. It's a cyclotouring bike at most. The Riv model it most resembles would be a Roadeo. If you want a real touring bike or a bike packing bike, the Lyon is not necessarily that. But if you want a light flexible road machine for fat tires, the Rivendell is maybe overbuilt. You really need one of each, or maybe need to clear out your existing stable to make room

[Les Lammers]

On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 12:14:02 AM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:

What debate?  The obvious answer is both. The L'Avecaise is not a bike packing bike. It's a cyclotouring bike at most. The Riv model it most resembles would be a Roadeo. If you want a real touring bike or a bike packing bike, the Lyon is not necessarily that.  But if you want a light flexible road machine for fat tires, the Rivendell is maybe overbuilt.  You really need one of each, or maybe need to clear out your existing stable to make room

+1 and/or you could wait and see what the Roadini project provides.  

[Tony DeFilippo]

What's the NYT article on the Wolverine?

If bike packing is the hole your looking to fill in your stable and you've had your eye on Riv's I think that's your answer... One of the 650b Atlanti or June would be sweet.

That being said those Lyon's appear to be a great bike at an attainable price point!

Tony

[Belopsky]

I am interested to see what the Roadini will be, but since it's probably a cheaper TIGd Roadeo, I think my BJ Audax E-E fills that void. A Lyon however could be added (or similar)

[ascpgh]

Fast front loader? All road, all load? Specifics matter.

Generally. I could see myself with one of each. I'm halfway there!

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Jock Dewey]

Hey, Bill:

Definitely YES, do the L'Avecaise! Then c'mon over to Athens so I can have a go at it. 

My quandry is, I haven't had skinny tubes since those days my Eisentraut (now hanging up) was on the road. What if L'Avecaise was so magical my Ebisu or Ram no longer came out of the house? Oh, that would be sad because I'm so fond of both (and after 13 years just had JB respray Ram).

Of course, much of this mystifies me. I built Soma--nice stainless headlugs--a couple years ago with a bunch of nice bits I'd been collecting. (I got pro-deal on frame so it was really inexpensive.) Despite frame specs at which many would scoff, I grab this bike all the time as I love the way it 'feels'. I guess I still don't know what that quite means totally, even after more than 60 years aboard. To wit, I ride Ebisu all day, then hop on the yellow bike and despite its on-paper shortcomings, it's full of life. Sprightly, comfortable and fast, too. When I'm challenged by my kid to keep his wheel, I often grab Soma.

Last spring I had some time on a rainy day, my wife was in CA with family, so I took off bags, pumps, water bottles--but left on fenders, pedals, etc--and crudely weighed them all on a hanging scale. I must admit, I wasn't sure I really wanted to know. Surprise, surprise, pleasant surprise...they all weighed about 24 1/2 lbs. As comparison (and to make sure scale was sort-of working), Waterford AC1900 came in at 28 lbs. and kid's Columbus Bianchi racing bike with featherweight Chronometro Aerohead wheels weighed in at just ever so slightly over 23 lbs. Wow.

(Oh, another data point, all my bikes share same wheel spec, i.e. Open Pro / 32 / XTR hubs / 15g spokes / light, responsive 30mm tires. All other very-nice components quite similar).

So now I wonder/ponder, thinking back to other bikes and experiences, tandems included, I recall being stunned when I first rode my now-long-gone Litespeed. THAT was breathtaking...so so so light. Oh my gosh. I was instantly 20 years younger.

Therefore, what is the mystical IT? Is there a mystical IT? I'm thinking weight, other spex relatively equal, really does have something quite crucial to say about it. 

I guess what I'm realizing is (and answering my own question), at this point, I should probably just quit while I'm ahead. Enticing as today's choices are and they ARE enticing, perhaps more so than they've ever been, maybe I should continue to ride and care for the joys I gots rather than entertain dreams of the ones I ain't gots. 

But, Bill, if you DO pull the trigger and go L'Avecaise, still c'mon over so I can admire. And you would let me ride it around the block, right?

Oh and BTW, someone once told me 'the best day is when you buy a boat and the next best day is when you sell it.' 

BEST / Jock Dewey / Athens, GA

On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 10:56:32 PM UTC-5, Bill in Roswell GA wrote:

[Chris Birkenmaier]

I saw that Jeff Lyon wants to move some L'Avecaise frames out with fork and headset

May I ask where you saw this information?  I looked up his website and didn't see anything on a sale or promotion.

thanks!

On Monday, December 12, 2016 at 10:56:32 PM UTC-5, Bill in Roswell GA wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Jock: It seems that you already have a pretty darned nice collection. That Soma looks very rideable indeed, not to mention pretty.

Why did you dump the Litespeed if it felt so good?

Patrick Moore, who also ought to be riding more and buying less - but who still has a few other possibilities in mind ....

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[Steve Palincsar]

On his flickr site, as noted in one of the forums, either Paceline or Vsalon, and also discussed at some length on the BOB list.

[Brewster Fong]

 Jock wrote:

<My quandry is, I haven't had skinny tubes since those days my Eisentraut (now hanging up) was on the road.>

Wait, you have an Eisentraut and it's hanging on the wall?!  Why? If it is not damaged, why not fix that up and get it going?!  Although now retired, Albert Eisentraut's frames are second to none! 

Good Luck! 

[Jock Dewey]

Hey, Patrick:

And you ought to know, thanks Patrick, because you have one as well, ha!

I have pix of it somewhere and then you'd see...it was race bike I rode a lot with my kid and other faster-than-me characters. A pretty bike for sure, that Campy Ergo was so smooth, but frame a little too small, bars way too low now, really tight clearances. And I could fix these issues. When Tyler went off to college my interest in that kind of equipment faded, for riding anyway. 

Furthermore, I also realized I didn't want to keep chasing the technology. When we started, Patrick, as you'll recall no one really cared or even knew when stuff was made or came along. Suddenly it all changed, and began changing every year. No cross pollination, the chase for the latest greatest was on full stop. And I didn't want to chase anymore.

(Actually the story goes back even further. I didn't have access to the world of French bicycles in the mid-50s, but when I was seven or eight years old, one of my well-heeled pals got this birthday present--pix below--and my life changed forevermore. I must admit I HAVE been chasing this, still am I do suspect.)

Quite a few of the nice 'older' bits on my bicycles have been in good service--to me and others--for decades now and my mission is to maintain them best I can and try to wear them out (before I do). I still acquire, don't get me wrong, but I'm reasonably patient and mostly only when I 'need' something and only occasionally when I want. It's all relative I guess.

BEST / Jock Dewey

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[Jock Dewey]

Yes, Brewster, thanks.

Although it's "Limited" and not the "A", so some would say not-so-great. It was a fantastic ride for many years and many thousands of miles--so well-crafted. Gorgeous. It's right above my bench. The thing's in wonderful shape and will put it back together one of these days. A little small, but everyone in '75 or so crammed themselves on frames too small, saved weight, made 'em stiffer, ha! I recall reading Jan talk about leaving his rubber Mafac brake hoods off to 'save weight'! We just can't get away from it.

BEST / Jock

[Jock Dewey]

Hey, Brewster, et. al.:

I apologize for crowding the internet this a.m., but to my delight I just found & scanned pix circa '77 of my old 'traut...ready to ride. Oh happy day!

Twenty years, nearly to the day I suspect, since that Blue Streak love affair. I'm pretty close, right? This green bike even looks good by today's standards, if I'm not mistaken.

If I do say myself, sweet!!

BEST / Jock Dewey

On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 12:59:12 PM UTC-5, Brewster Fong wrote:

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Sure looks good to me and I'm liking that Porche in the background too!

[Jock Dewey]

Hey, All:

Oh, man...better to ask forgiveness than permission, right? Right!

BTW, it's cold, dark, windy, rainy here in NorGA this aft; I don't mind cold...I don't mind wet, but I do avoid cold & wet if I can help it. Therefore, obsessing now, too much free time and all that.

But here's a 60 year, full-circle/cycle thing I just cobbled together. Scary, I know!!!

BEST / Ovr & Out / Jock Dewey 

On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 1:56:21 PM UTC-5, Jock Dewey wrote:

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Steve P is correct. The list was on Paceline. $1600 for frame, fork, headset, and one color paint. 

The Wolverine wasn't in NYT! NYT had an article about how getting what you love is more satisfying. However, getting what you love doesn't necessarily mean you'll stop wanting something else!

Cheers

Bill in Roswell, GA

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Bill, you do make some good points. I just want it all - lively ride that can carry a 20 lb. camping load (being a lightweight backpacker). Yeah, nothing can do everything well. If I were going to do a heavy duty tour I would get a bike appropriate for that.

The Roadeo is much like bikes I already have. And you are correct, I should get rid of some bikes! 

Cheers,

Bill in Roswell, GA

 

 

On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 12:14:02 AM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Thank you for sharing the photos, Jock. Great to see them all. You have quite the stable. I didn't know you have a Ram, also. 

Is the Soma a Stanyan? I know a few guys who've built up Smoothies. The Stanyan is slightly lighter tubing? A bit surprised that the Ebisu is heavier. 

I will definitely plan a ride with you after the holidays. Athens has better country riding for sure. I haven't been riding regularly due to some knee issues. Getting rounds of synthetic cartilage injections the next few weeks. The Dr. told me to take it easy, don't cause any swelling while tissues are absorbing the knee goo. 

Can't complain about the rainy weather since a few weeks ago half of the places I hike were closed due to forest fires! 

Cheers,

Bill in Roswell, GA

[Steve Palincsar]

20 lb is not a very heavy touring load.  Over on the 650B list, Alex Wetmore has made the point more than once that a lightweight, flexible front-loader like the L'Avecaise can handle that sort of a load up front on low-riders very well without needing the sort of stiffness that might be required of a rear-loaded touring bike.   Consider Jan Heine's "mule":

That's ultra-lightweight tubing except for the OS downtube, but that load's got to be a hell of a lot more than 20 lb.

[Jock Dewey]

Oh, yes, yes...you are right about the rain!! And if we don't get it now through the winter, we're screwed! Our local reservoir was down maybe 10' I'll bet. 

Good, we should def make some plans. There aren't a whole lot of us around, you know; weed out the carbons and it would be just about left to me, ha! Oh, I do have pal here who actually builds frames (just for himself, too bad) so that's one more. Wow, 2 of us!

I think all of my bikes are right about 24.5 lbs. Who knows how accurate my scale is but either add or unwind some tape and they'd all be the same. I simply can't tell the difference, certainly not riding, that's why I got brave and tried the scale. I was afraid of more, and I didn't want to know! We're a screwy bunch, that's for sure.

Good luck with the L'Avecaise. Great looking bike, surely a great ride, and from all accounts a good guy building them. Properly priced, too, IMHO. 

Merry Christmas, Bill, and keep in touch.

JD

[Joe Gates]

Bill and Jock: I am about halfway between you two in Winder! Perhaps one day we can all meet up for a ride!

[Daniel Jackson]

Anybody know what pump that is on Jan's bike?

[Bill in Roswell GA]

No kidding? Joe, you're in the middle of good, long country ride territory. Yup, we'll have to do that after the holidays. Orthopedic told me yesterday that I can't really exercise until after holidays as it takes a while for synthetic cartilage to settle in. Long, slow bike rides will be just the physical therapy needed by then - physically and mentally!

Cheers,

Bill in Roswell, GA

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Thanks, Steve. I know when Jan was in Japan he was touring with a front load, which is where I want to be. He was bombing down some mountain roads on that thing!

A close friend has an old ti Litespeed Appalachia touring bike that has been just about everywhere in the US and parts of Canada. Yet it has a lively ride sans load -we have to ride up the same long hill on the way home. 

After I talked with a guy on an Atlantis locally (only the second Riv I'd ever seen) I aspired to own one. Such a beautiful bike. I rarely see one for sale in my size (53/54). Jeff Lyon has a L'Avec w a 54.5 top tube, which is the same as all the bikes I have so fit won't be an issue.

I also like Rob Park's Ramblers, but he is just now putting together another production run. 

Too many choices!

Cheers,

Bill in Roswell, GA

On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 5:10:54 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

20 lb is not a very heavy touring load.  Over on the 650B list, Alex Wetmore has made the point more than once that a lightweight, flexible front-loader like the L'Avecaise can handle that sort of a load up front on low-riders very well without needing the sort of stiffness that might be required of a rear-loaded touring bike.   Consider Jan Heine's "mule":

[RichS]

Jumping in here with the Georgia list members to include Decatur! As the signs say: "A Bicycle Friendly Community"

Riv Ride south in the offing?

Best regards,

Richard

On Tuesday, December 13, 2016 at 6:50:36 PM UTC-5, Joe Gates wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/14/2016 08:44 PM, Bill in Roswell GA wrote:

Thanks, Steve. I know when Jan was in Japan he was touring with a front load, which is where I want to be. He was bombing down some mountain roads on that thing!

A close friend has an old ti Litespeed Appalachia touring bike that has been just about everywhere in the US and parts of Canada. Yet it has a lively ride sans load -we have to ride up the same long hill on the way home. 

After I talked with a guy on an Atlantis locally (only the second Riv I'd ever seen) I aspired to own one. Such a beautiful bike. I rarely see one for sale in my size (53/54). Jeff Lyon has a L'Avec w a 54.5 top tube, which is the same as all the bikes I have so fit won't be an issue.

I also like Rob Park's Ramblers, but he is just now putting together another production run. 

Too many choices!

Seems pretty obvious to me, Bill...

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Hi Rich,

Is that your green Riv I see near Stone Mtn sometimes? I used to ride there when my friend lived in Avondale Estates. 

Indeed, we'll get up a RBW/iBob group ride after the holidays!

Cheers

Bill in Roswell, GA

[John Hawrylak]

Bill

What is a "bike packing bike"  ??

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Belopsky]

I'd love a L'however you spell it, but I also don't 'need' it - I don't front load or anything, I like the look, want a 650b bike. I guess the Touissant could be that on the cheap (as far as frame goes) but..

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/15/2016 10:09 PM, Belopsky wrote:

I'd love a L'however you spell it, but I also don't 'need' it - I don't front load or anything, I like the look, want a 650b bike. I guess the Touissant could be that on the cheap (as far as frame goes) but..

If you "don't front load" then you really do not want one.   Nor the Touissant, either.

[R Shannon]

If it's a sage green Sam then quite possibly. I rode to St. Mtn. one day last week to look at the tent camping sites. For me an easy Sub 24 ride/camp out. A little over an hour one way from my house.

Riv/iBob ride would be great!

Best regards,

Richard

Sent from my iPhone

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[Jennings]

There are two more of us with Riv's in South Forsyth/Cumming that would like to meet up. We've been talking about doing a local ride and finishing up with a Jekyl brewery tour.

[R Shannon]

Very good! Nice to see more GA based Riv owners showing up here. Which models do you ride?

Regards,

Richard

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 16, 2016, at 7:58 AM, 'Jennings' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> There are two more of us with Riv's in South Forsyth/Cumming that would like to meet up. We've been talking about doing a local ride and finishing up with a Jekyl brewery tour.
>

[Jennings]

I have a hunqapillar and my friend has a hilsen and quickbeam

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Jennings,

I lost track of your email address. My riding has been sporadic. About to start on knee physical therapy again, so hopefully back up to speed in a few weeks. 

Did a shortish 20 milers out near Milton couple of weeks ago. Traffic keeps getting heavier and now a developer is doing another big expanse on Providence west of Bham Hwy. 

What is your email? I can't recall how to make it show on on here. 

Jock Dewey is in Athens and he wants to do some rides, too, as does Rich in Decatur. 

Cheers,'

Bill

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Hi Rich,

I'm attempting to compile a list of RBW/iBob riders in the area. 

I don't yet have a Riv, but I have a stable of steel bikes, Bridgestone, Trek and Bianchi. 

Do you know Tony Scott? He just got a beautiful Terra Firma. 

Cheers,

Bill in Roswell, GA

[Fullylugged]

I live near Montgomery, AL but every other week work in Cedartown with a Rambouillet packed in the car. I ride a couple of nights after work, usually solo, but sometimes with the Rome Rides A Bike gang. Give a shout anytime you want to set something steel framed up!

[RichS]

Hi Bill:

Bill, thanks for compiling a list of ATL Riv/Rivish riders. I don't know Tony Scott. Which area of ATL does he live in?

Best regards,

Richard

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Rich, Tony lives in the Decatur area. A friend of mine rides with him regularly. 

I used to do Ride to the Capital, but I'm over-committed for March as is!

Cheers,

Bill in Roswell, Ga

[Bill in Roswell GA]

Nice country riding around Cedartown. If you would, send me an email per your address so I can add it to the list. 

Cheers,

Bill in Roswell, GA