Paul brakes recommendation

[dstein]

I have the CX70 brakes with kool stop salmon pads on my 26" hunq (which is currently running a 650b wheelset with the brake pads all the way at the top position) and the brakes have always felt too squishy to me, even just after picking the bike up new from Rivendell, and it certainly hasn't help that I've fiddled with them so much over time. 

Would V brakes like the Motolite or Minimoto work on the cantiliver bosses? They seem to get very positive reviews. Clearance seems to be an issue. Or would Paul Touring Canti or Neo Rretro brakes make more sense for this frame and wheelset/tire choices (and if so is there really an advantage of Paul canti's vs. the Shimano's)?  

I'm using Shimano road brake levers on Albastache bars. 650b x 42mm compass tires, though I am thinking of going with the  rat trap passes and going back to the 26" wheelset.

Or can someone school me in how get my CX70's nice and tight so I don't need to look at other options (I've tried a LBS for adjustments and that didn't seem to help).

[Michael Hechmer]

I have no experience with the CX 70, and very little with V brakes.  I did have a pair of earlier Shimano cantis, mated to Ultegra brifters, and lots of experience with Paul's brakes, and accessories.

The Shimono cantis I had were a precursor to the present offering, model 550 or something?  The setup was difficult and the stopping was awful.  Salmon pads and Tektro levers improved both  the setup and performance to average.  

My wife briefly had a bike with V brakes, which gave me some familiarity.  Everyone I know who has V brakes speaks highly of their performance but keep in mind they were designed to stop a mt. bike on a single track downhill, i.e. low speed, low weight, and steep descent.  Traditional road touring bikes use cantis, which were designed to stop hi mass and hi speed bikes.

I have Paul's Racer M's on my Ram, Racers on our tandem, and Neo-retros on my Saluki.  By far I prefer the Neo-retros.  All of these brakes work very well.  It's hard for me to compare the braking performance of a tandem and single bike as there is just too many variables to consider, but if I had to pick one brake it would be the neos.  They offer fantastic power and optimal tire / fender clearance.  They do get rather grimy because cantis sit below the fenders.

Many people find the Paul's difficult to set-up, but I believe that is because they are thinking in Shimano.  The first couple of times can feel confusing, despite good directions on the website, but after a couple of times it feel pretty intuitive and goes in a straightforward way.  I find it helpful with cantis to have a QR on the lever and a good barrel adjuster to fine tune the final set-up.

I literally owe my life to my neo retros so I am without apology,  biased.

Michael

[Brian Campbell]

I have had Paul Canti's (Neo Retro & touring) as well as Paul Racer Centerpulls. None (in my opinion) stop as well as a set Shimano XTR V brakes I am using on a 1989 Trek mountain bike. The V brakes were much easier to set up and adjust. Again, all opinion, but opinion borne from actual experience. I would not, willingly, use cantilever brakes again.

[JohnS]

Hello Brian,

I have to agree, the XTR V-brakes from that period where amazing. Their parallelogram design allowed the brake pads to engage the rim perpendicularly, without arching. But I prefer the looks of long arm canti's and they brake well enough for me.

JohnS

 

On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 5:07:30 PM UTC-5, dstein wrote:

[Clayton.sf]

Campy cantis with salmon pads. Best ever. Paul vbrakes don't have the modulation IMO. They stop but they are off or on, not good for dirt. The CX70 are great though! Have you tried messing with straddle wires. Also, mushy feel does not mean bad braking.

Clayton Scott,
SF, CA

[David Stein]

Clayton - the cx70's have the cable carrier which has a set straddle angle and height. would it be wise to try a straddle wire in its place to mess with the height and adjustment? 

I'm also wondering if the 650b setup is a good idea for brake placement. I can position the pads at the highest setting to reach the 650b rims, but is more at the bottom of the rim rather than the middle or top of the rim like when it was a 26" rim. Does that play into how it brakes?

I'm also coming off a week on a road bike with disc brakes which isn't helping ;)

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[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Squishy brakes can mean two things. Either the cable and housing isn't done "tightly", or you have powerful brakes. If the latter, it's a good thing. If the former, switching out the brakes won't help. I've personally found that with low-profile cantilevers that are set up correctly and have good pads, power isn't something I worry about (and I do live in the mountainous SF bay area). Yes, even the old Shimano cantilever brakes such as the BR-M561 can be set up to provide more than adequate power, even if they are a bit finicky.

Regardless, if you want to change to V-brakes, you'll need to change to V-brake compatible levers or find a set of "Travel Agents" to accommodate the cable pull discrepancy. I do recommend, as a personal bias towards reducing unnecessary cost and fiddling-to-learn, to study online guides on how to best tweak your existing CX70 brakes to your liking. Cantilevers are such an "off" thing nowadays, that I suspect the LBS wrenches you've approached may be better at disc brake adjustments instead.

[drew]

This is interesting as I also have a hunq with cx70 brakes that feel squishy. I recently adjusted them and added kool stop pads, and found the squishiness increased, which worried me. I did a 60 mile ride yesterday and adjusted the brakes a couple of times during the ride (once to alleviate squealing, and once to tighten up the front). On the last leg, a skunk ran out in front of me and I was able to stop on a dime, so I figure that the power is actually pretty good,despite a sort of slow modulation feeling.
2 things: since switching to road levers from mtb levers, the brakes have felt less powerful...perhaps this isn't true. Setting these up with the pads extremely close to the rims is the only way I've found them to be effective, though this makes wheel removal difficult and the brake allignment more finnicky.
Do you know which size spacer you are using for the pads? Also, I've heard switching to a traditional straddle cable offers better adjustment. I'm not sure that I'm good enough at adjusting cantis for that to improve my situation though.

[Ron Mc]

I've been totally floored by my Paul touring cantis 

- best brakes I've ever squeezed.  

[Philip Kim]

Paul Motolite, in my experience, are hands down the best Paul Brakes (and best rim brakes I've used). Currently have them on my VO Camargue and they stop on a dime and have gobs of power. Takes some time with initial set up, but afterwards very easy to adjust. Minimotos don't have the same clearances as Motolites.

Rim brakes I've used: Paul Touring Cantis, Paul Neo Retro Cantis, Paul Racers, Shimano XT V-brake, Tektro CR720 w/ Kool Stop, Tektro 559's, Shimano Ultegra Sidepulls

On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 5:07:30 PM UTC-5, dstein wrote:

[Philip Kim]

Oh I've also used the Campy CX Cantilevers, as well.

[Clayton.sf]

Regarding straddle. You can use a "normal" straddle wire arrangement on the cx70. LBS should have those.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

[Bill Lindsay]

dstein asked:

"I'm also wondering if the 650b setup is a good idea for brake placement. I can position the pads at the highest setting to reach the 650b rims, but is more at the bottom of the rim rather than the middle or top of the rim like when it was a 26" rim. Does that play into how it brakes?"

For any cantilever brake of this kind, pads at the top of the slots is the position of LEAST mechanical advantage.  This goes completely counter to your main complaint, though.  Your primary complaint is the brakes are squishy.  Squishy feeling brakes is the most common symptom of HIGH mechanical advantage.  With the pads at the top of the slots, your brakes should feel solid, but should feel like you don't have much power.  This is what confuses me about the whole thing.  It doesn't add up, and leads me to suspect there is something else going on. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[Shoji Takahashi]

I have CX70 on my 26" Hunqapillar, too. (Just swapped to studded tires. Was running Rat Trap Pass with VO fenders.) I changed from Tektro CR720, and CX70s are much better. 

I used the straddle hanger and cable, as I have several handlebar setups, and swapping them is easy using the straddle wire/hanger arrangement.

One thing to try: change your brake housing to compressionless brake housing. (Don't get it confused with derailer housing!) I've heard that it can dramatically improve brake feel. (I do notice that the brakes feel more squishy on the longer cable runs on the albatross bars than the shorter cable runs on the moustache. I'll try new cable housing in the spring.)

Good luck!

Shoji

[davec...@gmail.com]

Maybe squishy isn't the right adjective then? My concern is I have to pull the road levers almost all the way then and even then I feel I am not getting near the stopping power I should be compared to my other bikes (mix of canti's and calipers and discs). 

Also on the minimotos for anyone that knows, should those be run with road brake levers?

Sent from my iPhone

[Philip Kim]

mini motos are short pull so road levers

[Garth]

Direct facing photos of both front and rear would be useful ! 
This may help :  http://www.bikeforums.net/recreational-cyclocross-gravelbiking/722673-cantilver-brake-faq.html

I suspect and adjustment of the straddle wire would help. The basic straddle carriers are wonderful as they are much more flexible in setup. I've found any of the fixed ones are too limiting. Also, detach the straddle cable from the brake and hold it down at the carrier with one hand, and activate the brake with the other, it should feel smooth and without resistance. Cables and their routing angles all play a part in this and a resistance-free setup here is the foundation for any brake performing at it's best.

A higher priced brakes is no more of a gauge of quality of braking than mid or even lower priced ones. Setup and pads are everything !  My favorite brakes are still the 80's post style cantilever Shimano or Suntour . 

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Another aspect of "sponginess" that one should check for is brake pad contact angle. While brake squeals can be attenuated by a bit of toe-in, one should ensure that there isn't too much toe-in and the vertical alignment of the pads is good. Specifically, ensure that the entire pad contacts the rim and not just the top or bottom pad (this adjustment aspect is 90° from the toe-in). One can easily verify this by examining the pads after a little use; good adjustment means the pad has rub marks top to bottom, on the front section of the pad. Of course, with enough wear, all brake pads will become optimally adjusted. :)

On the newer cantilever brakes that uses the "V-brake type mounting" (such as on the Paul brakes), this adjustment can easily be done by actuating the brakes semi-forcefully while the pad mounting nuts are tightened. Cantilever brakes that use pads with the "smooth post" are a little more challenging to get right.

[David Stein]

Thanks for the advice all. I think I'll go back to the 26" rims to get the brake pads lowered and in a better position on the rim (also a good excuse to get some Rat Trap Passes!) and then rely on a LBS for adjustments if need be (any recommendations for a mechanic in Oakland? I've been using Hank and Frank on College Ave just for proximity to my house).

If I still feel I need something after that I'll then take a look at Paul Touring or Campy canti's, or possibly Motolites. If anyone has any experience running Motolites on a Hunq with wide tires and also racks let me know!

--

[Steve Palincsar]

Presumably you are using these with mountain bike brake levers?

[Brian Campbell]

The Paul brakes were all set up on road bikes, using road bike levers. The V brakes are using V-brake specific levers.

[Matthew J]

> The Paul brakes were all set up on road bikes, using road bike levers. The V brakes are using V-brake specific levers. 

I have had good luck matching the Paul Min-Vs with Campagnolo Record MTB Flat Bar levers which I believe were made for a year or two in the early '90s.  The modern MTB levers I tried did not work well.

[Kurt Manley]

I think you should try lengthening your straddle cable and making sure the pads don't have too much toe in. Sounds like you have too much mechanical advantage or the pads are flexing/rotating as they hit the rim from too much toe. If that doesn't work you could take it to Riv or if you want to stay in Oakland talk to Daniel at Montano Velo on Piedmont Ave. Either one could get the canti's working good. The 650b thing probably makes things a bit trickier as you're moving the pad away from the fulcrum which will need more lever travel as well.

Another good option would be to get some of the tektro drop levers that are designed for v brakes and get a set of v brakes for it. They don't need to be Pauls. I have cheapo Avid sd-7 v brakes on my proto-hunq and they work very well and are super easy to set up. That is, as long as they have enough vertical adjustment for the 650b conversion. Mini v's that would work with your current levers would limit the tire size. I run a 2.4 with the Avid brakes.

If it was me I'd do straddle cable and if it didn't work I'd get v brakes. Canti's do work great but are a lot of work to set up and keep adjusted properly. I really like v brakes. Switching from CX-70 canti's to Paul canti's wouldn't do much in my opinion.

On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 2:07:30 PM UTC-8, dstein wrote:

[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 1:32:52 PM UTC-8, Matthew J wrote:

> The Paul brakes were all set up on road bikes, using road bike levers. The V brakes are using V-brake specific levers. 

I have had good luck matching the Paul Min-Vs with Campagnolo Record MTB Flat Bar levers which I believe were made for a year or two in the early '90s.  The modern MTB levers I tried did not work well.

 

Yes, mini-v brakes, which were originally designed for BMX bikes, work great with road levers!  On my cross bike, I used a cheapie Tektro 926al mini-v brake (under $20) with my Campy ergo levers and it was far superior to the crappy Suntour xc pro canti brake that I had on there. It was like night and day! No more squealing, shuddering or vibration of any sort. 

 

I heard from a friend who writes for a cx rag that the Paul minimoto mini-v brake is arguably the best non-disc brake in dry conditions. Good Luck!

[masmojo]

90% of the time if your brakes are "squishy" or lack feel, you are using the wrong lever, incorrect housing, or the are not adjusted properly.
Most road bike levers for caliper or cantilevers won't work on V brakes or disc brakes.
I have Paul levers on 4 bikes and I have the Touring cantis on my Clementine. I like them fine, but I am not sure if they are better than my favorite brake, the XTR cantilevers. I am running them with the Tektro FL750 levers which worked like crap with V brakes (even though I have seen numerous bikes with V brakes running them!?) The Pauls work great with these levers!
Hope that helps!

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Coming in a bit late to the thread, I realize...

Finding someone in most shops who actually knows how to adjust canti's is not easy.  Look for the greybeard silverback most-ent-like denizen.  

As Benz points out - if you have removed gaps or seating issues in the housing so that there's no slack - squishy actually means you have more power.  That "hard" brake feeling - or "pukka-pukka" as it's sometimes technically referred to - means that you are doing all the work at the lever because you have less power.  

I've always pointed folks to the Sheldon Brown articles - 

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-adjustment.html

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html

and with some trial and error (if you want to put the time in) you can gain an understanding of the beast.  Since linear-pull brakes and disc brakes eclipsed their use on mtbs, it's not a bad skill to have.  

- Jim

 

[Jim M.]

On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 11:27:54 AM UTC-8, dstein wrote:

(any recommendations for a mechanic in Oakland? I've been using Hank and Frank on College Ave just for proximity to my house).

Cyclesports on Grand has a mature mechanic (i.e., 50 or so) who knows his stuff. 

jim m

wc ca 

[dstein]

Ugh. So i got a deal on some rat trap pass tires from a list member which motivated me to put the 26" wheels back on to get a lower brake pad position compared to the 650b wheels. I also went nuts and bought some motolites and tektro rl520 long pull road brake levers for my albastaches. Spent an insane amount of time yesterday (good thing it was a rainy day and not much else to do) trying to make this work and I can only conclude that me and brakes just don't get along, I'm going to bring this one in to a mechanic. The brakes are either too tight and rub the rim or too loose and the levers bottom out against the handlebar. I feel like the spring adjustment and pad alignment for the motolites are right. But when I get the cable tension tight enough that the levers don't bottom out, I get one good spin on the wheels without tire rub, pull the brake lever, and then they stick to the side of the rim, if I loosen them a tiny bit then the levers bottom out again on the handlebars. I also stripped the cable tension bolt :(. 

Off to the bike shop. I'm also going to see if they can get some tubeless action going for these areoheat rims and rat traps.

[ian m]

I've had nothing but great experiences with my Paul Motolites, first on my Fisher MTB and now on my Clem. No problems with setup with or without racks (Tubus rear and Pass & Stow front) and fenders. Excellent brakes and when paired with Paul levers there's tons of adjustability.

I'd also highly recommend Montano Velo on Piedmont Ave

[David Stein]

I need to check out Montano Velo, I keep hearing good things about them, they were closed today so I went to Hank and Frank's. There's a cool mechanic there, Benji(?), who helped correct my mistakes and setup the brakes properly. Took it around the block and the braking power so far is aweome. My minor brake crisis comes to an end ;) 

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

The symptoms you've described sounds like you're using cantilever levers with Linear-pull brakes (that the Paul Motolites are, of course). Double-confirm that the levers are truly what they purport to be? I know that the RL520 levers will work with linear-pull brakes, as I have that a combo with Shimano Deore V-brakes at the pointy end.