Single Speed Freewheel Removal

[George Schick]

Anyone out there know of a "BMX" freewheel removal tool that will work well with a Phil Hub?  Unfortunately, the center hole on a commonly used tool, like the Park FR-6, is not large enough to slip over the larger-than-normal axle caps of the Phil hub.  This means that the axle cap on the drive side must first be removed, which is not only an extra PITA, but then the removal tool has to sit against the notches on the freewheel without benefit of the QR skewer to hold it in place, risking the stripping of the FW notches in the process.

[Peter Adler]

Nope. None of the readily-available BMX freewheel removers fit over the Phil axle - and I've bought and failed with several of them.

I bought an MA2 wheel with a Phil hub off eBay several years back, and got it cheap because the seller had foolishly threaded a White Industries ENO onto the hub without checking whether he could get it back off again. Obviously, I didn't want to trash the nice pricy freewheel. After going through four different removers and taking it to two different BMX-specialist shops, I broke down and emailed Phil Wood. They told me to ship it/haul it down to their shop in San Jose CA, where they've either machined some tool to remove it, or they've come up with some other trick. This is still on my shortlist; the trip to San Jose goes through three of America's ten biggest commuter chokepoints, and I don't get down to the South Bay very often.

If there is a tool, it wouldn't hurt to ask if they'll sell you one. It could make you the emergency rescue mechanic for anyone else in your area who gets into this jam.

Peter "still hoarding onto the PW alloy Dixie cup to maintain hub bearing preload" Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[George Schick]

I suspect that when your PW hub arrived back at their factory they just removed the axle cap and used a standard BMX

[William deRosset]

Dear George,

Can you pull the DS and leave the NDS (my non-track end-cap-swappable Phil hubs are in VT these days, or I'd check) in place to locate the QR? All the QR needs is to provide some preload to hold the splines prongs/splines in place until the freewheel shifts a bit. Alternatively, you could throw your freewheel remover on the lathe and bore it out a bit....

Best,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[George Schick]

@#$%!!  Fingered the previous.  Here's what I started to say:  I suspect that when your PW hub arrived back at their factory they just removed the axle cap and used a standard BMX freewheel tool to remove it.  This is not difficult to do on their FSA hubs, but it's just an extra pain to have to do it.  They post instructions on their web site (a PDF buried among their other stuff) that shows how.  Bear in mind, though, that they've gone through several generations of FSA hubs and the one pictured in the PDF does NOT have the same hub axle as the one pictured.  Previous iterations used a sleeve to keep things centered and it did not work quite as well.

https://www.philwood.com/philpdfs/FSAinstructions.pdf

[George Schick]

Will - your advice is exactly how i do it.  Then, since the axle cap can't be reinstalled with the BMX tool in there, I shore it up with a couple of fender washers to support it on the DS.  I have also thought about your suggestion to bore out the hole on the FR-6 tool to fit over the axle cap (I have a machinist friend with the lathe), but I fear that it may leave the remaining metal too thin to withstand the torque involved in removing the freewheel.  Might be worth a shot sometime, though.  They're not that expensive a tool…

[Jason Hartman]

There are a few options I can think of:

Use a grinder to make the removal tool's hole big enough to fit over the PW end cap. 

Make your own tool out of a flat piece of scrap steel. Of course, it will only engage two notches and I would recommend using the vice method. 

Use a chisel or punch of some sort to get the freewheel started. 

Take the freewheel apart, and use a big pipe wrench to remove the part of the body still stuck on the hub. This should be a last resort as it usually kills the freewheel. 

I have used the chisel and homemade tool method successfully in the past with no damage to the freewheel or hub. Though my hubs were Campagnolo, not PW

Jay Hartman

On Tuesday, November 17, 2015, George Schick <Bhi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anyone out there know of a "BMX" freewheel removal tool that will work well with a Phil Hub?  Unfortunately, the center hole on a commonly used tool, like the Park FR-6, is not large enough to slip over the larger-than-normal axle caps of the Phil hub.  This means that the axle cap on the drive side must first be removed, which is not only an extra PITA, but then the removal tool has to sit against the notches on the freewheel without benefit of the QR skewer to hold it in place, risking the stripping of the FW notches in the process.

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[George Schick]

Curiosity got the best of me so I went down to the shop to take some actual measurements.  The opening on the FR-6 is 15.29mm; the PW axle cap diameter is 18.87mm.  So milling out the tool to about 19mm may not involve removing as critical an amount of material as I feared.  I think I might go after this solution.  BTW, from what little I know about machinist work, I'm thinking this would probably get done with a vertical milling machine, not a lathe.

Thanks all for your suggestions.

[Mark Reimer]

I'm a bit confused - I have two sets of Phil single speed hubs, both with white industries freewheels on them, and I've used a plain ol Shimano BMW freewheel remover to get them off. I remove the axle bolt, put the tool on, and then thread the axle bolt back in to keep the tool engaged and not slip. Works with hubs spaced 120 and 130. Is this the same situation? 

[Mark Reimer]

Oops, should say BMX, not BMW. After wintering the motorcycle my mind is stuck elsewhere...

[David Banzer]

I think folks are putting single speed freewheels on hubs designed for multi-speed freewheels, then having difficult getting the tool over the axle.
David
Chicago

On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 1:15:29 PM UTC-6, Mark Reimer wrote:

[George Schick]

Mark - Yep, you've got it exactly.  I'm just trying to figure out an easy way to get the BMX freewheel tool on there without having to remove the axle caps.  I have several SS freewheels and I like to interchange them occasionally, depending on riding conditions.  You're solution works just fine; call me lazy.

David - You've got it exactly, too.

[Peter Adler]

A little rooting around on Phil's site yesterday reveals that Phil Wood makes a BMX-specific hubset (100/110mm axles). For all I know, they may very well have made similar hubsets since the early '80s. I would assume that the purpose-built BMX rear hub(s) are designed to accept standard BMX freewheels, with removal to be done with standard tools. Phil recommends the White Industries ENO for the current hubset.

My situation (and Gerorge's situation  too, sounds like) is a BMX freewheel mounted on a standard multigear PW freewheel hub. The Phil axle caps used on multigear and track hubs is substantially wider than traditional axles, to support the bearings better. I'm guessing that the axle caps/ends on the BMX hubs are different from the multigear/track ones, so that standard BMX FW removers can be used. Otherwise, Phil would make and sell FW removers for their own BMX hubs; it's not as if they haven't made tool-gizmos to fit their own special components in the past (cough cough 2 grades of BB cup tools cough cough 2 different grease guns cough cough brand-specific lock ring tools cough cough hub preload bearing Dixie cup cough).

Mark, I take it you're using single-speed specific hubs - possibly BMX-specific hubs. If the OLD on the rear is 110mm, then it would have to be; Phil's standard road/track rear hubs have never been narrower than 120.

Peter Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Mark Reimer]

I'm using their standard track rear hubs. One is on my surly steamroller with 120mm spacing. The other is on a CX SS bike with 130mm spacing. Never had a problem removing my freewheels, so long as I took the axle bolt out. 

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[Bill Lindsay]

The Park FR-6 has a large through hole and clears anything up to 16mm in diameter.  Here's a link:

http://www.parktool.com/product/freewheel-remover-fr-6

The BMX freewheel removal tool I have barely fits over a normal threaded axle.  So when I had to pull the FW on my Phil Hub I had to roll down to the LBS and use theirs.  Maybe the OP has what I have, and maybe both of us need an FR-6.  

Bill who-has-a-phil-rear-hub-with-a-bmx-freewheel Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA 

On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 11:59:36 AM UTC-8, George Schick wrote:

[Mark Reimer]

Oh you know what, that is the tool I have. I guess it's not Shimano. Definitely the Park tool!

[Bill Lindsay]

The OP actually suggests the FR-6 isn't big enough.  My link says up to 16mm, so maybe his Phil hubs axle caps are larger than 16mm?  

[George Schick]

Yeah, as I said in one of my replies on this thread, the "standard" 120mm road axle caps measure 18.87mm, which is way too wide for the FR-6 to fit over them.  One has to remove at least the DS axle cap in order to get the FR-6 (and presumably anyone else's tool, as well) to work.  That's why I'm trying to get my FR-6 widened by a machinist to at least 19mm.

I admit that this is a one-off request, but hey, I view this community and blog to be all about one-off solutions, trying to mix and match various component to fit with a particular frame or part :-)

[Mark Reimer]

Just for my own clarity's sake - when you say axle cap - are you referring to the bolt that tightens the hub into the frame? Or are you referring to the axle piece on the inside of the frame, which the bolts thread into? 

[George Schick]

Mark - per the PDF I embedded in an earlier reply, PW shows the axle caps (they call "end caps" in their PDF) unscrewing from the "axle," i.e., the internal device against which the insides of the sealed bearings rest.  You can certainly unscrew the DS "end cap" in order to fit a BMX freewheel tool against the notches (splines).  The bolt that tightens the hub to the frame is irrelevant to this discussion.

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm envisioning it's a hub not unlike this one.  That chubby protuberance on the right is >16mm in diameter, so it has to be removed in order to allow you to slide the Park Tool on.  A Park tool with its hole wowed out to 19mm or wider would fit over that chubby protuberance.  

[Steve Palincsar]

I believe the "chubby protuberance" is also known as the "axle cap".

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[George Schick]

Yup.

[Patrick Moore]

An aside, but related: when I wanted the 16 t fw removed from the back wheel of my Dahon Hon Solo, having no remover myself I took it to a good lbs -- Fat Tire. Mechanic said: "The only way to get it off is to destroy it in a bench vise," which he proceeded to do. Mechanic claimed that such cheap fws were not meant to be recyclable.

I had not particular desire to keep that fw, but was he right, or was he full of a particular unpleasing substance?

(Bike now has a14 t fixed cog in place.)

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 5:32 PM, George Schick <Bhi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Anyone out there know of a "BMX" freewheel removal tool that will work well with a Phil Hub?  Unfortunately, the center hole on a commonly used tool, like the Park FR-6, is not large enough to slip over the larger-than-normal axle caps of the Phil hub.  This means that the axle cap on the drive side must first be removed, which is not only an extra PITA, but then the removal tool has to sit against the notches on the freewheel without benefit of the QR skewer to hold it in place, risking the stripping of the FW notches in the process.

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[Mark Reimer]

I'd agree. I had two dicta freewheels. One of them I put on before a CX race to test riding with a 16t freewheel. Within a few laps of hard and wet racing it blew up. The second one I used in winter. It blew up in a couple days. Then I bought a shimano. It's lasted two years so far but I can't use it in the cold as the pawls stick and it spins both ways! The White Industries freewheel I've had for 4 years now hasn't missed a beat once. It's perfect. 

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[George Schick]

I had this experience once, too, back in the mid-90's.  I had a Suntour, Shimano, or some kind of FW (can't remember) stuck on an old Campy Record hub so badly that I actually stripped the notches out of the FW trying to get it loose with the removal tool.  The LBS I took it to guaranteed that they could get it off, but would destroy the FW in the process.  I said go for it and they did, and it did.  Since then I've used higher quality components AND lubed the hub threads with anti-seize compound and have had no further problems.

[Patrick Moore]

My freewheel, as far as I could tell, had no prongs or slots for a tool -- the interior was entirely smooth.

Has anyone come across a fw like this?

[tarik saleh]

Cheap Dicta and even some cheap shimano's have come like that, I think there is an indian sub manufacturer that makes the inadequate ones. There are also non standard tiny prong 4 prong dicta freewheels, and even two prongs.   I think  you can spin them on remover-side-in if you are not paying attention as well.

Tarik

Tarik Saleh
tas at tariksaleh dot com
in los alamos, NM, USA, po box 208, 87544
http://tariksaleh.com
all sorts of bikes blog: http://tsaleh.blogspot.com

[Patrick Moore]

No great loss in any case. It was rather interesting, nay thrilling!, to see the mechanic remove it by squeezing it in a vise.

As for OEM Indian Roadster components, the habit in the countries where I saw them used was that things like freewheels, not to mention chains, chainrings, bb, hub, and headset bearing assemblies, saddles, rims, and brake linkages were considered permanent infrastructure, like the frame. (I'm being somewhat -- 33.225% -- facetious, but serious for the rest of it.)

[Metin Uz]

On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 3:44:57 PM UTC-8, tarik...@gmail.com wrote:

Cheap Dicta and even some cheap shimano's have come like that, I think there is an indian sub manufacturer that makes the inadequate ones. There are also non standard tiny prong 4 prong dicta freewheels, and even two prongs.   I think  you can spin them on remover-side-in if you are not paying attention as well.

I don't think you can spin on a freewheel with the prongs facing in -- you would immediately realize because the ratchet would not let you turn it.

[tarik saleh]

Yep, good point, they will thread on there, but not logically, nor work when on. 

Sent from my iPhone

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