Thanks Grant

[Justin, Oakland]

Glad to see you voice your opinion on the Blahg/Blug/whatever it was.

-Justin

[Stephen W.]

✌

[Mattt]

Please do not introduce political non “bike” talk on the board.

[hugh flynn]

Are basic decency and human dignity really a political position?

Hugh Flynn

Newburyport, MA

On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 11:52 PM Mattt <matt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Please do not introduce political non “bike” talk on the board. 

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Newburyport, MA

[Eamon Nordquist]

Mattt, feel free to ignore that simple thank you to Grant, which I second. Nothing political mentioned - just thanks.

Eamon
Seattle

[Drw]

Jesus. Grant posted it. Grant owns Rivendell. I think this safely falls within the bounds.

Also it’s objectively (I thought) awful and worth thinking about.

[Bob K.]

Grant wrote:

“It feels like frivolous sinning to write about bikes and poems, when Trump and Sessions are breaking up families in Texas. Is this really one of those political topics that we aren't supposed to voice an opinion on, because we're supposed to be an oasis, or because we don't want to lose customers?

I don't think we have any customers who are for separating families, maybe forever, and would justify it under some kind of weird lying banner of patriotism or protecting our country.”

Like Justin, I appreciate that Grant uses his platform to speak up about issues that matter to him. I also appreciate the respectful tone with which he approaches such difficult topics. Carry on, Grant, and thanks.

I also understand where you’re coming from, Matt, and I generally tend to agree with the sentiment. For some reason, though, this situation just feels different to me.

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Justin, Oakland]

A) Grant posted it. I’m glad for it.
B) It takes courage (or foolishness [or both {or neither}]) to voice opinions as a business.
C) Grant has said and I agree that this forum can be cranky pants at time without much praise. Here’s some praise.
D) Fucking seriously.

-J

[Joe Bernard]

It's different. Tonight I watched Rachel Maddow get a Breaking News sheet on her desk as her show was ending, and it was the announcement that this psychotic government is holding babies in camps. Rachel is the toughest host/anchor on cables news and when she got to the phrase "tender age facility", she broke down. This. Is different.

[Richard Rios]

Right on Grant! People first. Thank you for the post. Big respect for the cajones.

Best,
Richard

[Jonathan D.]

Thanks Grant for speaking out. It would seem all Blahg topics are appropriste for this list.

[Garth]

Protests are not about "making things right, whole, complete, perfect" , they're about keeping things divided, separated and incomplete. Double-mindedness.  2 sides of the same coin arguing with each other, threatening each other with annihilation though incapable of following through(since it's the same one coin) . The protest is the very "war" that the protest "claims" it is protesting against. 

None of it has any Truth, Life .... Presence. 

 IS ... IS  ! 

   

[Joe Bernard]

Yeah well I'm going to go ahead and protest evil. That shit doesn't just fade away by itself, you have to fight it.

[Steve Palincsar]

So, shut up and get in line?  Is that what you're saying?

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[phil k]

Matt if you find this topic political, I can't imagine how exhausted you must be.

[Eamon Nordquist]

Yeah, one more time - thank you, Grant.

Eamon
Seattle

[John A. Bennett]

To quote John F. Kennedy, who was paraphrasing Edmund Burke: 

As the great parliamentarian Edmund Burke said, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." 

The full speech, delivered in Canada, back in the Olden Days when we were still friends with them:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=8136

JAB in Portland, Ore. 

[Bernie Burton]

Thank you, Grant!

Bernie Burton

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[Tim]

Yes, Thanks Grant. And thanks, Justin, for opening this thread. And thanks John, Eamon, Joe, and all of the rest. Oh, and Mattt...bless your heart...

[James Warren]

Regardless, evil things are being done and they need to stop. Thanks to all who have used to words to convey this thought.

-Jim W

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[Christopher Murray]

I’m super-hoping this thread gets shut down- the sooner the better. This is obviously a political issue. Whatever your beliefs, aren’t there better places to discuss them? Call your representatives, write a letter, scream in the backyard, talk to a friend. Something and someplace other than here.

Please for the sake of goodwill and sanity!
Chris

[hugh flynn]

And I, in turn, hope this board and every aspect of all of our lives is over run with the outrage that is appropriate and which spurs action until this affront to both god and man is ended. This isn’t politics. This is humanity pure and simple. 

Hugh

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[Joe Bernard]

DHS is hinting at overturning this absurd separation policy, so there's a ray of hope amongst the madness. It will be for some crass "our internal polling looks bad" reason, but I'll take what I can get from these reprobate monsters.

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

+1 on a HUGE thank you to Grant...

Do not take down this thread. I think this is a wonderful show of support for a topic that transcends political viewpoints and boils down to basic human decency.

This forum isn't limited to technical conversations and his Blahg posts should certainly be entertained on the forum.

Thank you Justin for posting...

Alex Wirth

Rochester, NY

[Mattt]

This post will probably get the thread shutdown.

The reason I said politics is because the definition of politics is the art or science of Government. This is a matter of government not Rivendell bikes.

This issue was not created by the United States, it was created by people who violate the laws of the United States and enter the United States ilegally. It is a fact that over 80% of the minors that enter the country illegally, and the reason they are detained, is because they cross the border illegally without their parents. Therefore, the United States does not have parents to keep them with. It has been reported by the Border Patrol that children who were sent by their parents to cross the United States border illegally possess the Plan B pill because their parents expect their child to be raped. The parents are the inhumane party for this issue.

When a parent crosses the border illegally, the parents violates the law and is arrested. When someone is arrested they are detained in jail. A person cannnot keep their child with them in jail; this includes United States citizens. For example, if a person and his or her spouse are arrested, their child is put into government custody.

This is not a Trump, Obama, or Bush issue as this has occurred under all three administrations. Many of the pictures of children in cages were under the Obama administration. The first pictures shown recently by the media were actually during the Obama administration. This has been previously reported by the Washington post in 2014 and from a Senate report in 2014.

This is an issue created by people who do not respect the laws of the United States. If you do not want your child to be separated from you then do not violate the laws of the United Statea and be put in jail.

Getting into politics at the present time, this issue has been magnified because of an upcoming election to help a political party. The political party does not want this resolved because it needs to be a issue for the upcoming election. A quote from the Senator Chuck Schumer, “Wants to Keep Focus on Trump.” Senator Schumer does not want to pass legislation because this needs to be an issue for the upcoming election. This is not humane.

[Tim Gavin]

FALSE

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2018/jun/19/matt-schlapp/no-donald-trumps-separation-immigrant-families-was/

Yes, blatant lies (and the fiesty response) will probably get this thread shut down.

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[Joe Bernard]

That's a whole lotta bullshit, Matt. The issue was children being abducted from parents who at worst had committed a misdemeanor while fleeing violence. A lot of these kids are now sitting in camps with their parents already deported, and the government has no system for reuniting them. The policy has now been reversed, but we have a long way to go to get these families back together. Some of those little kids and infants have been orphaned by the United States Government. FOREVER.

[phil k]

Let's not talk about bike infrastructure articles, bike lanes, or helmet laws. Let's also not mention whether we are happy Grant has made-in-Taiwan frames. Let's not praise Grant for trying to get in MUSA products when he can. That would fall under commerce.

[Eric Floden]

Thanks, Grant.

Bottom line for me is, due to trade issues, and now this obscenity, I'll source my purchases from other countries. At least for now*.

Madness.

EricF

Vancouver BC

* usually less than $1K/year

[Mattt]

The back and forth is why these kind of issues should not be brought up on this group. Nothing Will get resolved. We have differing opinions and everyone is right. There are heated arguments over bikes on this group. This issue will not be resolved on the Rivendell Owners Bunch.

I replied earlier in an even tone without disparaging or calling names and see what happens. This will probably not end well.

[Joe Bernard]

The order has been reversed because we were right and Trump saw the writing on the wall. Public pressure works, something terrible got fixed.

[d2mini]

I have to agree with Matt. This is not the place for discussion of politics. At least I didn't think so. 

Nothing good ever comes from a political post (evident in this very thread) on a non-political forum, and most non-political forums/discussion groups don't allow it.

Anyone who has been around the block a few times knows this. 

[Joe Bernard]

This is a Riv Forum originally started by Grant, our government had embarked on a human rights atrocity, Grant mentioned it, and we're talking about it. Have a nice day.

[Eamon Nordquist]

Mattt and d2mini, I respectfully suggest that this is simply a thread thanking Grant for a post on his blog. Clearly you disagree with his sentiment, and have expressed so. Why not leave it at that?

Eamon
Seattle

[lconley]

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." 

A big Amen to that.

And a big southern "Bless your hearts" to the defenders of the indefensible.

Thank you Grant.

Laing

Cocoa FL

[jeffrey kane]

Matt's reply to the OP wasn't something we haven't seen here before - (Please do not introduce political non “bike” talk on the board)  - I mean, perhaps it could have been more eloquently expressed ...  but if I had to guess, it's a sentiment that has been generally agreed with across the group.

Why not let this one go before Jim Edgar has to jump in and remind us all that we'd be better off letting it go?

jsk

[John Phillips]

Dear Grant, Thank you for your Blahg post.

Isn't this same fear & hatred of Others what is behind car driver road rage against bicyclists?

My wife is a proud Rivendell Betty Foy owner, and a Mexican-American, born here in the U.S. to parents born here in the U.S. to grandparents born here in the U.S. If you go back two or three generations earlier, her ancestors were born Mexican. As they say, "We didn't move, the border did!"

Trump pardoned Sheriff Appaio for his crimes of arresting and incarcerating Mexican-American U.S. citizens without cause. Now Trump is separating children from parents as a tool of terror.

I am a proud Rivendell Hunqapillar owner, descended from Jews who moved here from Germany to make money in the gold & silver rushes of the 19th century. They missed the Holocaust, but were terrorized by the huge KKK rallies and marches of the 1910's & 1920's, and have denied their ancestry ever since.

This administration has expressed views against civil rights, immigrants, non-caucasian citizens, women & mixed-race marriages. As Rivendell owners, we feel distinctly in the cross-hairs of the agenda of this administration.

If one doesn't want to speak up for human decency, compassion & human rights, one should remember the French revolution and the examples of authoritarian regimes of the 20th century: innocent or guilty they may come for anyone next.

Again, thank you Grant for your gracious words,

John Phillips

[Wayne Naha]

Thank you, Grant, for taking a stand on the side of humanity.  Every time you do make your views known, I am that much more proud of you and Rivendell.  It does take courage, and you set a grand example.  I am also gratified by the response of the listers here.  If the separation of children from their parents could be considered a "divisive" or "acrimonious" topic here, I would need to find a new bicycle forum.  I am glad to see that the RBW can come together on this.

[d2mini]

It started off that way but of course specifics are now being discussed/argued.

I'm not saying I don't agree with Grant (no idea where you got that, that is your poor assumption), but even Grant used his blog, not this forum.

There is a time and a place.

But hey, it's not my forum, I'm just a guest, as are all of you. If this is how things are run here, who am I to have a problem with it?

All I can do is offer my opinion on the matter.

Best,

[Joe Bernard]

You got caught in "I have to agree with Matt" which I noticed immediately and thought, "yeah, someone's going to read that out of context." The internet is fun!

[Philip Williamson]

"Isn't this same fear & hatred of Others what is behind car driver road rage against bicyclists?"

I don't think it's only fear and hatred, it's also arrogance and ownership, and expectation of privilege, but I feel the correlation on a personal and systemic level. 

• Some people feel they can shout at me, or buzz me with their car, because I "don't belong" on "their" roads. 
  
• Other people feel that they can do anything at all to anyone who "doesn't belong" in "their" neighborhood, country, forum, etc. 
  

Thank you, Grant, for speaking up. 

Philip

Santa Rosa, CA

[Ryan M.]

Agreed! Thank you, Grant! 

[Eamon Nordquist]

Quite right, your post did not state any feelings about the Grant's post, just whether it should be discussed here.

My apologies.

Eamon

Seattle

[Rod Holland]

Thank you, Grant. Long may you wave.

rod

[islaysteve]

Thank you Grant!

[Deacon Patrick]

Grant writes post decying separation of families at the border ... Trump signs executive order ending family separations at the border. Grin. Way to go, Grant!

With abandon,
Patrick

[Justin, Oakland]

What can’t a Rivendell do?

-J

[Joe Bernard]

Morality planes.

[Jeff Lesperance]

This is thread is perfect.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 7:57 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Morality planes.

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[Chris Birkenmaier]

I feel like I have logged in to the wrong forum. I didn’t think this was a forum to discuss politics. Regardless of whose party you belong to.

[Justin, Oakland]

Taking the high road requires high trail.

[Chris Birkenmaier]

I am a member of a closed FaceBook group for people that have Golden Retriever puppies from a specific breeder. Yes - controversial Golden puppies. I just came from there to read this forum after one of the members demanded that everyone “unfriend” her if they didn’t totally agree with her political views. I’m fatigued by the fighting on all fronts.

Riv content: I own 6 Rivendells. I like them a lot,
Peace be with you
Chris

[Timothy Hurley]

Yay Grant! Yay treating people with dignity and humanity! It’s nice to hear all (most) of you here are on the side of kindness and decency.

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Please don’t extrapolate not wanting this place to turn into a political forum with agreement on what is happening along our borders. I’m a mom. I get it more than you will ever know. Grant made his comments off forum - not here. I think we are in agreement with that

[Drw]

I really don’t understand how this is considered political. Japanese internment camps are atrocities now. Maybe they were political when they were happening. If your child was taken from you, would that feel political? Or worse, if you were a child and had your parents taken away from you, would that be political? If brown immigrants are treated one way and white ones another, is that political....or do we call that something else.

Trump now agrees with us, so the political parties are aligned in the fact that this is disgusting, but you have to wonder about the people who didn’t think it was disgusting 24hrs ago and why. I would call that political.

[Adam in Indiana]

Whether or not a person agrees it was appropriate to post this topic on this forum, the sharp division this discussion has caused (even to the point of certain members being singled/called out/attacked/given attitude, for voicing their opinions) is an excellent example of why topics of this nature (doesn't necessarily have to be obviously political) are best discussed elsewhere...

As Chris implied above, most, including myself, come here for a refreshing getaway from this sort of thing, and while I respect everyone's opinion, and largely agree with most, I have not enjoyed this topic. There is a lot of divisiveness and backbiting going on (among other things) and it's sad to see that here.

I would assume this is not what Grant wanted when he shared his opinion on the blahgh.

[Jim Bronson]

I just read all the posts in this thread and it seems there is more arguing whether this thread is or isn't about politics, than there is actual political discussion.

Riv content:  I own three Rivendells.

On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 8:16 PM Drw <drewbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

I really don’t understand how this is considered political. Japanese internment camps are atrocities now. Maybe they were political when they were happening. If your child was taken from you, would that feel political? Or worse, if you were a child and had your parents taken away from you, would that be political? If brown immigrants are treated one way and white ones another, is that political....or do we call that something else.

Trump now agrees with us, so the political parties are aligned in the fact that this is disgusting, but you have to wonder about the people who didn’t think it was disgusting 24hrs ago and why. I would call that political.

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[Joe Bernard]

The thing Grant wrote about has been rescinded and we're still here debating if it was ok to discuss here. Seems a bit silly at this point.

[ctifusion]

Thanks for speaking out Grant. It means a lot.

Brynnar
Indy

[Jonathan D.]

For what it is worth the issue isn’t done.

Interesting bit of background from one of my colleagues. As I mentioned below, a briefing from the DOJ’s Gene Hamilton this afternoon makes clear what we discussed: the Executive Order is illegal on its face. The White House knows this. You can’t detain kids for more than 20 days. (Technically, the child separation policy isn’t detention. They’re separated from their parents, turning them into abandoned kids – “Unaccompanied Minors” – which the government then must house.) Hamilton made clear that what happens from here is that the administration will begin detaining families intact with a 20 day countdown until President Trump blames a court for forcing him to separate families again.

From talkingpointsmemo.

I own 4 Rivs.

[Patrick Moore]

Not only is Grant influencing national immigration policy, he's infiltrating branded content into the NYT. Well, who else?

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/18/smarter-living/gear-for-biking-to-work.html?action=click&module=Smarter%20Living&pgtype=Homepage

[Surlyprof]

Great point and fantastic analogy, Philip.

John
Who also thanks Grant for taking the risks that he takes.

[RichS]

Patrick, that’s good! Made me smile. Thanks for the link to the NYT article. Love the inclusion of the value of a Wald basket.

Best,
Richard
(Happily commuting in non-Lycra fabric on my Wald basketed Atlantis)

[William!]

What a world we live in, when standing up for basic human decency is “political”.

Mattt’s opinions make it pretty clear to me that he baited the thread because he doesn’t like the Grant’s opinion.

[masmojo]

I would typically avoid discussions of this type (why I got off Facebook), but my wife was asking for my input on it, because she was confused. I said "quite frankly, I am too!"?
The administration acts like this is a new situation, exacerbated by existing regulations, but how come this issue hasn't come up before!?
It certainly seems clear this administration is intentionally (miss)interpreting the laws & enforcing them in a different way then they were intended in an effort to discourage these refugees from coming!
Fact is, if France, Germany, etc. were stripping the children of Syrian refugees away from their parents; we would be self righteously condemning them, this situation isn't really any different. Then the POTUS is going to sign a Executive Order, undoing a situation that he actually created and act like he's some kind of hero!
The only thing more surprising is that people will buy it!
Sad :-(

[Joe Bernard]

This was my tweet about it yesterday (bleeped version):

Create crisis, defuse crisis he created, rinse, repeat. **** this guy.

[Christopher Murray]

What I think is sad is that when people speak one side of this issue they are shouted down or accused of baiting the conversation yet when people speak the other side there is praise or silence. And then people try to claim this isn’t a political issue. This issue has no place here. Yes, Grant mentioned it but he has mentioned all kinds of things— Native Americans, same sex marriage, wars, etc. Does that give us permission to discuss them all here?!?! That’s insane.

That this thread and the other “things that annoy me thread” have been allowed to continue is sad. Remember that something that annoys you is someone else’s passion. Is this what we have become? That’s sad.

Chris

[Jonathan D.]

I hate that political is seen as a bad thing. Most things in lthe public sphere are political and that shouldn’t be seen as bad.

Our current process really wants to allow that all issues have two equally valid views. That is not true. Taking children from parents seeking asylum is one of those issues that is not served by our point/ counterpoint system as is the race baiting hate speech coming out of Washington. It should be condemned.

If this thread upsets you then stop reading it and move on to another thread. It is easy to avoid reading this thread and engaging.

[Christopher Murray]

“If this thread upsets you then stop reading it and move on to another thread. It is easy to avoid reading this thread and engaging.“

That is an amazing response. Thank you. So I’m welcome to agree but not disagree? Did I say I was upset? I should stop engaging?

I’m as against family separations as anyone. That doesn’t mean it has a place here. I honestly thought if people pointed out that there were better places to have this conversation, that there was no place for this on a bicycle forum, that it would stop and we could go back to talking about bikes. I’ve been proven otherwise.

But now I’ll stop.

Chris

[Joe Bernard]

There is no "other side" of babies abducted from mothers and put in camps. This is the folly of CNN, which Jay Rosen has dubbed "the view from nowhere": Every topic gets a panel which treats it as 50/50, as if the most egregious atrocity is just another POV. Screw that. The policy was a sin, and the lasting damage of this and the whole "zero tolerance" approach to immigrants is yet to be chronicled. This administration is practicing human rights violations as a government policy.

[masmojo]

I find that whenever the truth gets the light shined on it; it's dismissed as one sided or it's "fake news" (sort of an oxymoron) or blame is portioned off on the Democrats, liberal snowflakes, etc. To promote vacuous things like conservatism and "family values" as if family values are something unique to conservatives?
It's all just devicivenes to polarize one side against the other and no one sees it for what it is. The people pushing this agenda are trying to tear down America.
Wake up!

[Deacon Patrick]

Sigh. This thread wasn’t political, until it was.

As I read it, all people posting here are for basic human rights. Not all people agree on who, what, where, when, or how. This disagreement in no way negates their support of human rights. Please, stop with the abundant falsifies of logic, judgements, and accusations.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

I agree. Even the "Other annoying threads" thread has become annoyingly earnest.

In general, we are all much more intelligent when talking about bikes.

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Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?

[Joe Bernard]

Eh, I'm an idiot talking about bikes, too.

[Ryan Ray]

Personally I hope everyone who is pro "ripping babies from refugee mothers" is very uncomfortable here and in their daily lives.

[Justin, Oakland]

As the husband of a product of refugees with a daughter who wouldn’t exist without a humane refugee policy I agree.

Squirm. You should be uncomfortable.

-J

[Patrick Moore]

The quality of this thread has deteriorated to the point where I urge the moderator to step in.

Sheesh.

[Virgil Staphbeard]

But is it supple?

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 7:57:02 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:

Morality planes.

[R Shannon]

Or just self moderate.

Regards,

Richard

Sent from my iPhone

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/21/2018 11:58 AM, Christopher Murray wrote:

“If this thread upsets you then stop reading it and move on to another thread. It is easy to avoid reading this thread and engaging.“

That is an amazing response. Thank you. So I’m welcome to agree but not disagree? Did I say I was upset? I should stop engaging? 

I’m as against family separations as anyone. That doesn’t mean it has a place here. 

No, that's not why it has a place here.  Plain and simple, a great many topics that have come up here that normally would be wildly off-topic -- hatchets, paleo diets & eating bacon, for example -- have been considered ON TOPIC for one reason only: Grant wrote about them.  And guess what, he wrote about this too.  So, because this is RBW and Grant is Rivendell, he made it on topic.  

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/21/2018 11:37 AM, Christopher Murray wrote:
> What I think is sad is that when people speak one side of this issue they are shouted down or accused of baiting the conversation yet when people speak the other side there is praise or silence. And then people try to claim this isn’t a political issue. This issue has no place here. Yes, Grant mentioned it but he has mentioned all kinds of things— Native Americans, same sex marriage, wars, etc. Does that give us permission to discuss them all here?!?! That’s insane.

Hatchets.  Bacon.  Paleo diets.  Case closed.

[Christopher Murray]

So every word, sentence, or paragraph (two in this case) that Grant writes or utters is on topic on this bike forum? That’s insane. The examples you chose are things he wrote or talked about extensively.

Oh, you don’t get to close the case. But thank you.

Chris

[Philip Williamson]

Good point. All those threads irritate me mightily, but I skip them. 

Not always, but I should. 

Philip

Santa Rosa, CA 

[Joe Bernard]

I've never read a paleo thread even though my bathroom scale says I should. I probably should read my Eat Bacon, Don't Jog book, too...

[Justin, Oakland]

I would further point out that many timpeople s the reason why folks talk, at length, about why they don’t want bikes made in China and in general overseas is due to the potential human rights abuses. Irony is delicious.

-J

[Ryan Merrill]

Generally what goes up on the blug or blagh gets talked about. It’s just not that big of a deal to be discussing our current government not only turning away refugees but splitting the families apart and prosecuting them with a crime in kangaroo courts.

[Deacon Patrick]

“It’s just not that big of a deal to be discussing our current government not only turning away refugees but splitting the families apart and prosecuting them with a crime in kangaroo courts.”

This is an excellent example of needing to self edit. At least here. This is biased, inflammatory language with opinions stated as facts, when people of good will can hold very different understandings about what the facts are and mean and what we ought to do about them. Please. Stop.

With abandon,
Patrick

[CMR]

Yes, straight up.

[Richard Rios]

it really makes me bummed out that anyone would be irritated, annoyed, miffed, or whatever to see this topic here. I know we all want our little cubbies to hide in and time out from the world. But really isn't this an EXCEPTIONAL circumstance even among all the exceptional circumstances going on in the world. Is a simple mention or tip of the cap to a mention so irritating. I love bikes and I love to read about them but some things in life just Trump everything else. By the way hats off to Grant for the best way of inditectly saying F#(* you to someone ever!

best,
Richard "viva Grant, Viva Dinero" Rios

[Kieran J]

Hats off to Grant for taking a position and speaking out. The 'issue that shalt not be named' is truly horrifying, and the problem is not fixed. It's gut-check time for America right now, and opportunities to find common ground should be a priority. Y'all need to talk to each other more, not less!

Kieran

Victoria,BC


On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 8:07:07 PM UTC-7, Justin, Oakland wrote:

Glad to see you voice your opinion on the Blahg/Blug/whatever it was.

-Justin

[Justin, Oakland]

Sadly the admin of the Facebook group deleted a similar thread.

-J

[Philip Williamson]

Pot, meet kettle.

Philip
Edited

[Max S]

Patrick (and many others) make good points. To inject some facts and focus the discussion on productive matters:

Blog post on Marginal Revolution

“by Tyler Cowen June 21, 2018 at 8:10 pm in Data Source Law

Number of unaccompanied minors, age 17 or lower, apprehended during or after border crossings, fiscal year 2017:

41,456

Trump aside, what exactly is the plan here?

Hat tip goes to @BaldingsWorld.”

The dilemma or trade-off here has to do with the fact that citizens generally want to see their country defined in part through controlled borders, but citizens of a country (attractive to immigrants) also find the details of border definition enforcement repugnant. How does the nation practically circumvent the trade-off?

- Max “Let’s Have a Constructive and Civil Discussion” in A2

[Joe Bernard]

The thread is about children - including babies - being torn from their parents, not unaccompanied minors.

[masmojo]

As Joe pointed out, the reason for Grants comments (& thus this thread), was children being separated from their parents, NOT unaccompanied minors.
It's sort of a tactic and semantics really to refer to these people as criminals when the crime for most of them is entering this country illegally. The fact is refugee is a more correct term and I dare say that most of us would do the same thing if we found ourselves in their position. This really amounts to victim blaming which anyone who rides a bike should be familiar with.
If we weren't fermenting toxic relationships with our Central American neighbors then maybe we could work with them to solve these peoples problems instead of trying to coerce them into paying for a stupid wall.
It should be worth noting that after making that post Grant didn't post any if the replys he got about it.

[Joe Bernard]

It should also be noted that in the previous Blahg Grant mentioned he doesn't look at the replies, Dave does.