Kogswell P vs. Rambouillet

[Fullylugged]

Saw an ebay listing for a 62cm Kogswell P and the ad copy stated it was an exact copy of the Rambouillet geometry. IIRC, the P was only made briefly, used lugs and HT tubes out of Taiwan. Does anyone know if was in fact a close relative or truly an exact copy?

Hard to believe, but the Ram took a "nap" about 10 years ago now and still hasn't woken up :) I saw an Orange 55 CM frame here on the list this week and ALMOST bought it. It is truly a big too big though, even if I built it as a 650B. I hope someone who will enjoy its ride gets it and builds it up.

[Ryan Nute]

The ride/handling is very similar from what I remember.

Ryan

[eflayer]

The truth be told:

http://yojimg.net/bike/kogswell/kogswell_docs/Model%20P/Model%20P.pdf

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 6:22:41 AM UTC-8, Fullylugged wrote:

[Belopsky]

Those were lovely frames. I could not afford them at the time. I'm sure production costs increased but if those were offered again, at those prices, they'd sell really well.

[eflayer]

There was a bike shop in the Northwest that had a batch of Ps painted in their own color. Those blues ones were killer.

Matthew Grimm was a character for our times.

On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 6:22:41 AM UTC-8, Fullylugged wrote:

[Don Compton]

Wow, the 60 cm Kogswell P's geometry is identical to my old blue 60 cm Rambouillet.

[Frank Brose]

I have a P58 for sale with new paint from Chris Kvale. Built after paint rode three times unbuilt because I decided to stick with 650b. I also had a Ram 58. I really liked both but I really like 650b. more. The difference between the two was  small,very small to someone like me.

[Christopher Cote]

I remember when those came out. Wasn't there a kerfuffle over the name (or proposed name)? What happened to Kogswell?

[George Schick]

What happened to Kogswell, indeed!?  I recall surfing into there website a few years ago and it was defunct.  Not sure exactly when or why they pulled the plug, but it was a shame.

[Chris in Redding, Ca.]

Hey All,

I owned a second gen Model P and also a Romulus. I found the Romulus to be over tubed. There must also be some differences in the tubeset because the Rom felt mushy when pushed hard compared to the Model P and other similar steel road frames I have owned. The Model P was a kick in the pants to ride unloaded and kept it's composure when lightly loaded or pushed hard. The geometry between them was at least real close...that I remember from reading the charts way back then. The lugs are unique and from Matt Grimm from his 'lugged' days. Last I spoke to Matt he was hanging out in Berkeley Ca. 

Smooth Tracks,

Chris

Redding, Ca.

[Scott Henry]

I do love my P60, its on my "do not ever sell" list.   I wouldn't say the lugs were unique though, they were the Kirk Pacenti OS carving blanks, they were just uncarved.  

Great riding bike though.   I can fit 32's, 28's with fenders.   It was from an earlier Riv-influence era.   Fancier, faster riding bikes rather than the country-hobo style

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[Belopsky]

haha, country hobo. Love it!

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 9:23:53 AM UTC-5, Skenry wrote:

I do love my P60, its on my "do not ever sell" list.   I wouldn't say the lugs were unique though, they were the Kirk Pacenti OS carving blanks, they were just uncarved.  

Great riding bike though.   I can fit 32's, 28's with fenders.   It was from an earlier Riv-influence era.   Fancier, faster riding bikes rather than the country-hobo style

On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 8:15 AM, Chris in Redding, Ca. <campr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey All,

I owned a second gen Model P and also a Romulus. I found the Romulus to be over tubed. There must also be some differences in the tubeset because the Rom felt mushy when pushed hard compared to the Model P and other similar steel road frames I have owned. The Model P was a kick in the pants to ride unloaded and kept it's composure when lightly loaded or pushed hard. The geometry between them was at least real close...that I remember from reading the charts way back then. The lugs are unique and from Matt Grimm from his 'lugged' days. Last I spoke to Matt he was hanging out in Berkeley Ca. 

Smooth Tracks,

Chris

Redding, Ca.

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[Bruce]

GP feels his designs evolve over time, but my love is for the early stuff.  A 95 Road (the level TT before the Standard model came out) and the Ram are great riding road bikes.  Never had a Rom but the Ram is nowhere close to mushy.  

Great riding bike though.   I can fit 32's, 28's with fenders.   It was from an earlier Riv-influence era.  Fancier, faster riding bikes 

[Bill Lindsay]

What could you do on a Rambouillet that you can't do on a Roadeo?  In my mind, those two models are functionally identical, and you can buy a Roadeo if you want a Rivendell and want a 'not-dumb' stripped down road bike.  Rivendell also selling country bikes has not displaced the nice road bike.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Reed Kennedy]

Totally true Bill, and the Roadeo is a lovely bike. Thing is, a bare Roadeo frame costs $800 more than the Romulus did as a complete bike.

Some of that is inflation, sure, but looking at the complete Sam for $2,500 the bare Roadeo frame sure seems expensive at $2,250. Probably out of reach for many. That's what makes it feel like a lower priority, at least to me. American made, and very nice! You get what you pay for. But a the moment a Rivendell road bike requires a serious financial commitment.

We'll see how that new inexpensive road bike comes out, though!

Reed

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/28/2017 04:38 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> What could you do on a Rambouillet that you can't do on a Roadeo?

1) you could buy it for under a thousand dollars, IIRC vs over twice
that for the Roadeo

2) the Rambouillet had seat stay rack mounts. I can't tell for sure,
but it doesn't look like the Roadeo has them. Riv's web site says of
the Roadeo "Basically, it's not a "light touring" bike, or anything of
the sort," while the Rambouillet did that job pretty well by all
accounts. (Now that doesn't say you couldn't clamp on a rack and go
touring with the Roadeo, people did that with road racers during the
Bicentennial, but "Just Because You Can Doesn't Mean You Should.")

3) use a 135mm OLN rear wheel? (at least I think I remember the
Rambouillet came with a 132mm go-either-way spacing)

> In my mind, those two models are functionally identical, and you can
> buy a Roadeo if you want a Rivendell and want a 'not-dumb' stripped
> down road bike. Rivendell also selling country bikes has not
> displaced the nice road bike.

Pretty much, isn't the Roadeo the functional equivalent of the old Road
Standard also?

[Tim Gavin]

The Road Standard had smaller tire clearance due to short-reach brakes.  The Roadeo specs medium-reach brakes, and it will fit a 700 x 36 tire comfortably.

My Road Standard also has upper rack eyelets on the seat stays, where the Roadeo does not.  Of course, you can mount a rear rack to the Roadeo using a diving board to the brake bolt, or clamps.

I'm pretty sure the Roadeo has 130 mm OLD.

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[Bill Lindsay]

I can totally sympathize with price increase woes.  A great steel frameset will outlive ANY of us, though, so it's still a bargain.  If you know you'll get bored and dump it far sooner and care more about re-sale value, wait for a used one.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Mark in Beacon]

I would say the Ram went in two directions, and not terribly far in either: The AHH, and the Rodeo. The main difference with the AHH is bigger tires, though it may be that even the Rodeo can clear more than the Ram. The Rodeo chainstays are about the same as Ram, but ever so slightly steeper seat angle. And of course the AHH has chainstays a couple centimeters longer than the Ram, and is equally rackable without p-clamping. I would take a guess that the tubesets of the Ram and AHH are similar if not the same, while the Rodeo is a touch thinner. Disclaimer: I've only ridden one of these, and not for very long. So, yeah. With steel the OLD is not so critical, but I believe it is 132 for Ram, 135 for AHH, 130 for Rodeo. All in all, the AHH probably carries more Rambouillet DNA than the Rodeo (which IIRC was designed with a bit of help from Waterford).

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 5:12:47 PM UTC-5, Tim Gavin wrote:

The Road Standard had smaller tire clearance due to short-reach brakes.  The Roadeo specs medium-reach brakes, and it will fit a 700 x 36 tire comfortably.

My Road Standard also has upper rack eyelets on the seat stays, where the Roadeo does not.  Of course, you can mount a rear rack to the Roadeo using a diving board to the brake bolt, or clamps.

I'm pretty sure the Roadeo has 130 mm OLD.

On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 4:03 PM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

On 02/28/2017 04:38 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

What could you do on a Rambouillet that you can't do on a Roadeo?

1) you could buy it for under a thousand dollars, IIRC vs over twice that for the Roadeo

2) the Rambouillet had seat stay rack mounts.  I can't tell for sure, but it doesn't look like the Roadeo has them.   Riv's web site says of the Roadeo "Basically, it's not a "light touring" bike, or anything of the sort," while the Rambouillet did that job pretty well by all accounts.  (Now that doesn't say you couldn't clamp on a rack and go touring with the Roadeo, people did that with road racers during the Bicentennial, but "Just Because You Can Doesn't Mean You Should.")

3) use a 135mm OLN rear wheel?  (at least I think I remember the Rambouillet came with a 132mm go-either-way spacing)

In my mind, those two models are functionally identical, and you can buy a Roadeo if you want a Rivendell and want a 'not-dumb' stripped down road bike.  Rivendell also selling country bikes has not displaced the nice road bike.

Pretty much, isn't the Roadeo the functional equivalent of the old Road Standard also?

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[Sky Coulter]

For what it's worth, I've found my romulus to be a nice, quick road bike that can do a little bit more. Great handling, comfortable geometry and I've never felt it held me back in comparison to another bicycle.  My only complaint about it is the toe overlap with the front wheel, but I find it's responsive to all inputs -- the only 'mushy' aspect of mine is the engine.

Sky in new west

[bruce.h...@gmail.com]

Actually, the two are very close, but exactly the same. The 2007 RBW chart (which covers the blue period) shows a BB drop of 77, while the P is 76. Rake on the Ram is 4.25 while it is 4.3 on the P. The tubes are different suppliers, and the Kog page doesn’t give the thicknesses. They are super similar though.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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[Fullylugged]