Ventile Exploration

[Deacon Patrick]

Andy Cheatham asked in my Coffeeneuring #2 thread how I like my Foinaven cotton analogy ventile smock by Hilltrek. I’m starting a separate thread so folks can follow or not as they desire.

Simple answer, absolutely.

Fuller answer is more complex as it involves the question of what factors will make single, double or cotton analogy ventile options work or not for any given person. Here are some of the factors I know make a difference.

Humidity and temperature and precipitation. The higher the humidity, the more challenging it is to get rid of moisture inside any garment. The higher the temperature, the sooner the body will sweat. In high humidity and/or temperature increased ventilation levels help significantly. Even a single layer of ventile blocks all wind, so ventilation means loosening the hood/neck/waist. Depending on the amount/type of precipitation coming down, finding a balance is key. All of this is true for any rain garment, and is why less breathable jackets include pit zips. In my experience, these are not needed with ventile as all three types are far more breathable than synthetics. The general range I use my ventile cotton analogy is as warm as 60’s, raining, close to 100% humidity (wearing jacket only), down to -20˚F and colder, humidity ranging for near 100% to very low, wearing whatever layers are required under. For moisture management, the most challenging conditions are cold and wet and high humidity, with temperatures ranging from 50˚F down to 25˚F. For me, this is where cotton analogy ventile shines easily above all other comers, because it actively pushes moisture out. Fishnet underlayer is key to moisture management, allowing even a small amount of air flow to remove moisture, but also actively removing sweat (vapor and liquid) as I ride and when I stop. I experience double ventile as staying cold and clammy much longer than cotton analogy. 

Exertion level. When I bike harder, I sweat more. I climb a lot (essentially half of my riding as there are no flats around here), and there is no getting around warming up and sweating on these climbs. I generally stay aerobic, so could hold a relaxed conversation while riding. If I rode (as I used to) anaerobic much/all of the time, I would sweat a lot more and the amount of moisture needing to get out would be significantly higher. It took time to build my aerobic base, but now I ride faster aerobically than I used to anaerobically, and for far longer, requiring less water along the way. I also nearly always breathe only through my nose and this helps regulate temperature in ways I don’t fully understand. 

Ventilation level. How open is the hood, neck and waste? Closed enough to keep out precipitation, open enough to maximize air flow and direct removal of perspiration. 

Breathability of the fabric. Single ventile is most breathable. I experience cotton analogy as next most breathable (but more insulating, which may be what Will experiences and mentions in the other thread), followed by double ventile, which is still far more breathable than synthetics.

Insulation of the fabric. Cotton analogy is the insulating equivalent of a thin wool shirt under a single ventile jacket. I don’t experience much difference between it and double layer ventile. Because of this, the cotton analogy is bulkier, but I also don’t need to carry an extra layer of insulation. I just plan accordingly. Double ventile is slightly less bulky and single ventile is smaller yet. All are bulkier than many synthetics. All are quieter than synthetics. All breathe more than any waterproof synthetics.

Waterproofness of the fabric. Single layer ventile: 10 minutes of good rain will start to soak through. Double layer and cotton analogy are nearly the same, but I experience the cotton analogy as superior at actively pushing moisture out so I stay dryer, which matches the descriptions from Hilltrek and many of their customers.

Longevity of the garment: I’d have to look, but I’ve had my first cotton analogy jacket for over four years of hard, dirty use and I rarely wash it (they suggest washing far more than I do) and it works just as well now as they day I got it except the exterior spray on coating is long gone, but the jacket works just as well. The outer layer just gets stiff when wet from holding moisture, which is how ventile is supposed to work.

Which is right for you? No idea. But hopefully these factors combined with my and others experience will help narrow things down as to what to try first.

With abandon,
Patrick

www.CredoFamily.org
www.MindYourHeadCoop.org

[William deRosset]

Dear Andy,

EDIT: back on topic, just moved my discussion from the coffee thread here to help motivate the discussion and keep this one more compact (not that encouraging folks to go look at the lovely photography in the prior coffeneuring thread is a bad thing).

The Hilltrek greenspot jacket in double ventile worked well for me for both commuting (and backpacking up in the Wind Rivers and in the various ranges west of me). I have an ventile+analogy anorak (in a slightly different pattern) and it was just too bulky/heavy/hot/doesn't breathe adequately for cycling or XC skiing use. For standing around in the cold rain it is fine enough. It also breathes substantially less than a SV Braemar anorak (which is not adequately waterproof for extended rain, though that is my preferred winter solution here on the Front Range). I am a heavy sweater, and live in a semi-arid environment. so take that into account when talking about rainwear.

I currently have one of their fuller-featured jackets after I left the greenspot in a restaurant, and kinda regret not getting another greenspot. It is a well-engineered garment. 

A note on sizing: the greenspot required a size large (sleeve length), while the Braemar/Foinaven/the other one whose name I cannot remember, which is the Braemar in a full-zip, all were Mediums to fit.

Best Regards,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[William deRosset]

Dear Andy,

A use-case summary: 

For winter use, I use a single-ventile anorak, the Braemar model "windshirt". It breathes exceptionally well, keeps wind off of you, and will keep a light rain off of your layers for a while. Heavy rain wets it out pretty quickly as Patrick notes. It works very well for highly-aerobic activities with appropriate layering to from 50degF (single wool t-shirt) to -12degF (wool t-shirt, either wool or polyester overshirt).

I really cannot use the analogy/cotton anorak above about 18degF for any kind of aerobic activity. I overheat, sweat it out even with the side vents and front zip open (I rarely use the hood) and the analogy pump layer stays clammy when wet in my experience. It is great for standing around in cold weather.

Patrick found the cotton/analogy combination to breathe better than the double ventile. My own experience was the opposite. For me, the ideal would be a single-ventile lower half, and a double-ventile shoulder/arms with something like the Foinaven pattern, all other things equal.

Good luck, and you won't go far astray with whatever you choose--Ventile cotton in its various iterations turns out to work really well as long as your criteria do not include extreme light weight and low volume when packed, and I use both my DV and SV jackets regularly. The SV one in particular gets heavy rotation, and I live with the very occasional wet-out in the shoulder seasons.

Best Regards,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

[John G.]

This sort of detailed write up is why I love this list.

[Deacon Patrick]

Will,

I'm pretty sure Hilltrek now has something like that. Your ideal may exist! Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

Aye, here it is: http://hilltrek.co.uk/clothing/smocks/braemar-hybrid-smock/

[Tony DeFilippo]

I was and still am deeply tempted by Will and Patrick's descriptions of the ventile jackets, particularly the Greenspot.

Regardless I received a very generous gift two Christmases ago of an Alpha Industries M-65 field jacket, it's a fairly accurate reproduction if the classic military coat in a 50/50 Nylon/Cotton blend. I've found it to have many of the same wearing properties that also describe the ventile experience. For my DC area commute it comes out once it starts to get in the 50's and I haven't needed anything heavier, and layering underneath is usually pretty minimal. And I do love the pockets and the long tail. The roll up hood does leave allot to be desired though it keeps my neck dry in the rain and my Gore helmet cover different the rest. Another option to consider!

[ascpgh]

Patrick and Will,

Many thanks for your detailed experiences with your array Hilltrek garments, both of your insights are helpful to my decision. 

I am always concerned when looking at "raingear" that many technical specifications are purposely overlooked or the item is demonstrated in high altitude or arid settings which use the physics of the environment to produce claimed performance. In my use around here (38" annual rainfall, 27" snow) I need breathability or could just cut arm and head holes in the bottom of a can liner for much less and pretty high resistance/proofness to water. I can manage some moisture inside by choosing base and insulation garments appropriately. 

Synthetic advancements of other raingear at lower prices have all performed somewhat as unfinished research projects at high costs, those being crunchy loudness and service life. I believe the previous is telling of the latter, any material has a flex to failure specification and the shell materials dependent on coatings or laminates with a bonded 3D inner surface mesh liner beg for both increases stiffness of hand and an earlier arrival of the end of functional performance. Even trying not to pack or manipulate my last shell, the stiffness of its build focussed flex and movement in wear at the from of the shoulders, right where you need the shell to hold out water the most. 

Will, I am likely to follow your path to the DV shouldered and hood, SV balance construction because while I seldom have to cope with the lowest temps, I can sweat thinking about the next hill and have a premium on breathability. Side note about pit zips and back flaps on lesser breathing shells: here in the non-arid, closer to sea level lands they lower the temp differential across the membranes/laminates and promote condensation on the inside face of the materials beyond what the lining mesh can handle. A bad thing if I am using the shell for wind blocking  instead of a water barrier. nothing worse to end up wet on a dry dark morning.

Patrick, I've been quietly following your chronology of experience with Hilltrek products and Ventile itself. Thanks for being a font of information and freely sharing. Once again the usefulness of this list over coffee each morning is more productive than my wife ever thought!

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Tony DeFilippo]

Question on specifically DV garments, how packable are they? I ended up wearing my M65 on the ride in this morning (first commute in the 40's here for me) and this afternoon it'll be 60 and I'll be stuffing it into my saddlesack medium where it will pretty much fill the bag. I can't imagine the M65 being particularly good for a long day with varying temperatures it a multi day trip unless it was truly cold. Also the dry time seems to make it better for shorter, well defined ride periods (perfect for my commute). I'm curious if the ventile products do better in packing or dry time.

[Deacon Patrick]

Much like wider tires, more supple tires, steel bikes, higher handlebars, and longer chain stays, ventile changes how I think about and use rainwear and clothing in general on any given ride.

It's a wind shirt, insulating layer (more so if it's cotton analogy), and waterproof. So pack size is far less a factor than with a synthetic garment because it can be effectively and comfortably worn far more often. On long day rides, I no longer take anything but my jacket. Yes, the jacket takes up more room. I'm fine with that. Remember, though that I ride in the Colorado Rockies, where we can get all four seasons in an hour, regardless of what the forecast called for.

Redefining waterproof, for the better. Ventile is waterproof BECAUSE it gets wet and this swells the fibers and prevents more water from getting in. It also stiffens the garment. I'm always surprised how quickly it dries (vs. a cotton shirt, for example) after a rain. But on cool, high humidity days, it can stay wet on the outside for a long time. This is actually the garment working properly. I stay dry on the inside, regardless of activity -- or more accurately I rapidly become dry if my activity level was such that I was sweating a lot. But the layering under matters. I find far greater range of comfort wearing fishnet base layer shirt.

All that is to say, Tony, I have no idea how to answer your question, because ventile is an entirely different way of addressing an outer garment.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Tony DeFilippo]

Well Patrick I appreciate your attempt to answer it just the same and I'm definitely still interested by ventile. It does sound ideal for your climate and riding style.

Thanks again, Tony

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[William deRosset]

Dear Tony,

The M65 is the duck tail model--the one issued with the extreme cold equipment (I got to spend three winters in the thing professionally)? If so, no--a ventile jacket of the same construction will not be less bulky nor dry faster. 

In general the greenspot was a less bulky jacket than the Braemar in analogy (the Foinaven is similar), but nobody is going to mistake it for a compact jacket if compared to a W/B synthetic one, and it won't be especially quick to dry if packed. Like Patrick, I tend to take things off underneath of the jacket rather than stow it....

Best Regards,

Will

William M. deRosset

Fort Collins, CO

On Tuesday, October 17, 2017 at 5:57:43 AM UTC-6, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

[Tony DeFilippo]

Thanks Will,

In spite of my very good jacket situation I'm still tempted by the ventile. You and Patrick should be writing advertising copy for Hilltrek!  Thanks again.

Tony

[ascpgh]

Sold me.  I just ordered a Braemar Hybrid Smock with hand warmer and compass pockets. 

I have to acknowledge an accountant that worked for my dad who had run away to Canada and joined the RCAF when he was 15, ended up in England for the Battle of Britain as a fighter pilot and survived multiple downings, two in the channel, for which he surely owed his survival to Ventile. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Deacon Patrick]

Ventile was a miracle fabric when it was first created the RAF to allow pilots to survive more than a few minutes in the North Sea and it is no less so now. What a connection you have with it's origins through your dad's accountant.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Peter Turskovitch]

Very interesting! Thank you Patrick for sharing your experiments with us. I was motivated to do a bit of research about where to buy the raw fabric so that I can make a pair of pants. If anybody else is interested, here's what I found out.

The name Ventile refers to a fabric originally made in Lancashire, but hasn't been produced in england for some decades. Now the fabric is made by Stoltz Fabrics of Switzerland, under the name EtaProof, and rebranded by British clothes makers to "Ventile".

Unfortunately most of the clothes for sale are coated with a "DWR", aka C8 fluorocarbons, which, unfortunately, are incredibly persistent environmental toxins. They have been found in the livers of polar bears, in the remotest alpine lakes, and there's some in your blood and mine. They are currently unregulated but are expected to be phased out as the toxicity studies start to trickle in.

--------- side note about environmental toxicology, which is my field. skip this to rejoin the bike clothing discussion --------------

People often wonder how it can be that so many chemicals are used safely for years and years and then get withdrawn from the market due to alleged "toxicity". A lot of people even wonder if these "toxins" aren't just some overblown malarky invented by tree-hugging greenpeace types looking to justify their outrageous research grants.

Sadly the answer is simple: chemical manufacturers are simply under no obligation to prove that their products are safe, nor are they required to report what new stuff they're releasing into the environment and our children's bones. Thus it was that Pb entered the atmosphere - and, not to belabor the point, your blood and mine - for decades, that's how CFCs stripped the ozone layer such that melanoma rates are now 3X higher than 1970 despite the invention of sunscreens, and that's why your nalgene bottle contained BPA for like 20 years and your toothpaste in 2015 contained microplastic beads that are, again, now a permanent component of your flesh.

The second reason is that many novel toxins display effects at incredibly dilute concentrations. So dilute that it can be nearly impossible to measure them. (We call these microtoxins). This renders the science doubly difficult. First, it is incredibly challenging to create lab experiments that include realistic concentrations of the chemical. A microtox PhD student can expect to spend their first year or two trying to even determine whether their solutions contain any of the target at all, or, alternatively, if their control water isn't hopelessly contaminated by toxins already present in the groundwater supply. The second difficulty is that it can be very hard to detect whether these toxins are present in lakes, drinking water, etc, because the instruments used to do so are simply outrageously expensive to buy and operate. They are well out of the reach of drinking water managers, and perhaps only available to national laboratories of countries who prioritize such things. So it was that my former employer, the Swiss National Institute for Aquatic Science, has the capability to detect micropollutants since 2016, but neither Germany, France, Italy, or the UK yet have the ability. The US EPA was ramping up their program under Obama but are now screwed.

Finally, lots of compounds are "toxic" in ways that won't be visible for decades. BPA turned out to be one of those, in fact we still don't know what it's doing to us. DWRs on rain jackets are currently a toxicological black box, but one thing is clear: they are persistent, and they are everywhere.

------------ end side note ----------------------

ANYWAYS the good news is that you can get this fabric in a version that is waxed instead! It's called EtaProof Bio, and you can buy it by the yard. I plan to make a pair of cycling pants, if nothing else to redeem myself for this shamelessly off-topic post.

Peter, Zürich

[Deacon Patrick]

I will be stunned if waxed cotton cycling pants are the droids, er, pants you're looking for, Peter. Do you realize the heavy weight and non-breathability of waxed cotton?

With abandon,

Patrick

[ascpgh]

Even my fastidiously maintained waxed cotton bag begins to leak through the stitch holes of the seams. Even thought the base material is not nearly the functionality of the EtaProof/Ventile, the needle holes and threads of fabrication which leak. If similarly made of PVC sheet, my Carradice Nelson would seep just as it does. 

Absolute waterproofness is a pretty high standard and one that comes with some very clear negatives for which I have formed my own threshold. 

Selective ("hybrid" per Hilltrek) use of the waxed EtaProof/Ventile might be useful. Front of thighs and shins, hack half of the seat area from belt line to crotch gusset, the rest being single layer unwaxed. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Will]

You might want to surf over to Wiggy's (Riv sells their bags) and check out the Ducksback windshirt. I do not have one, but I have several other Wiggy's products. They work well and breath well.

[Peter Turskovitch]

Hi Patrick, I'm with you, I have been very unimpressed with waxed cotton trousers in the past. The (expensive) pants I've used from Fjällraven were simply horrible: neither breathable nor waterproof, they were really the worst of both worlds.

However, the wax that is typically used on these things is a mixture of paraffin and beeswax. It washes out easily with normal detergents. My hope is that the de-waxed Ventile will keep it's fabric-related waterproofing qualities - I'm hoping that the tight weave and swelling capabilities do actually work even in the absence of a hydrophobic coating.

Thanks again for bringing this material to our attention. I've really been enjoying looking back through your blog.

Peter.