Seeking wisdom of 29+ bikepacking vs. 2.1”

[Deacon Patrick]

I’m toying with the idea of a Boots (fixed gear version). I’d love to hear your experience of bikepacking with 2.6” to 2.8” tires vs. 2.1” or similar tires. This is for a bikepacking rig, so will be on pavement, dirt, and trail roughly equally. How big the cost in climbing? How great the gain in just rolling over stuff? My reference point is 38mm tires on the Quickbeam vs. 2.1” on the Hunqabeam, but I’ve not bikepacked with the 38mm. I was delighted/astounded at what I rode over fixed gear on the Colorado Trail last year on the Hunqabeam.

With abandon,
Patrick

www.CredoFamily.org
www.MindYourHeadCoop.org

[Justin, Oakland]

I think that if you can do plus tires you won't regret them for the type of hilly-bike-riding/packing that most folks here tend to do. The larger tires give you traction on the uphills and whatever is lost can be made up with intelligent gearing, muscle and the speed gained on the downhill. Downhill they feel much more surefooted and grippier while also providing enough cush for most to go faster than they would with "narrow" 29r tires.

Now 38mm is narrow for road and 2.1 is narrow for dirt (at least for me)!

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Justin. Keep in mind, I’ll have decidedly unintelligent gearing. Grin. Thinking of 30/34 x 17/21 (dinglecog) for usable gears of 57” high and 41” low. I may need to gear lower, but then I’d get a freewheel on the flip side for those 10+ mile descents. “Speed gained on the downhill” — that works great for the first quarter mile of a climb. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Eric Daume]

I know you love Riv and this is the RBW list, but a Jones would give you an EBB for easy fixed gear setup, all the braze ons you could ever want, clearance for 3.25" tires, and disc brakes. And it's cheaper.

My Jones LWB is surprisingly enjoyable on pavement, even with 3" knobbies. And off road, it's the best mountain bike I've had. And I've gone through quite a few.

Eric

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[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Eric. I talked with Jeff. Fixed gear is a no go due to rear width. Pretty confident after my conversation with him that I’d go Riv even if it was an option. Jeff was telling me all the things that don’t work about my Rivs, and couldn’t hear that he had it very wrong, I love my Rivs and they work wonderfully and I do not have the issues he thought I have. Grant listens and that’s huge, so I know the solutions he suggests for me are actually ... for me.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Eric Daume]

Hmm, that’s a good point on a fixed gear hub for a boost rear end.  I’m not aware of anything made for this either. You would have to weld up a free hub, or find an original Jones Plus with the 135mm rear end. 

As for Jeff, he’s a talker with strong opinions. It can be tough to get a word in edgewise at times.  

[tc]

I, too, have been curious. There are a ton of fans of plus bike bikepacking rigs. This guy included, who loves his Krampus for bikepacking and singlespeeding.

http://ridingwithron.com/surly-krampus-an-ideal-bikepacking-rig/

Tom

[Reid Echols]

Would a Crust scapegoat allow for a fixed setup? I know it’s a decidedly esoteric kind of bike that can be tricky to set up geared, but this may be a strength for the chosen use case.

[Deacon Patrick]

Good question, Reid. Maybe. For me, though, it’s Boots or I’m sticking with the Hunqabeam.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Philip Williamson]

Fixed Boost hub?
Would a Paul Boost Disc Word hub with a six-bolt fixed cog work?
https://www.paulcomp.com/shop/components/boost-disk-word-148mm/

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Philip Williamson]

What issues did Jeff imagine you had with your Rivs?

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[Tony DeFilippo]

I haven't bike packed, but I've ridden 2.1, 2.3 and 3" tires on singletrack, paved, and towpath... If the terrain is anything other than paved my preference is wider the better. If climbing on non paved routes the wider, knobby tires become magic Velcro and add a nice stability margin for the slow grinding...

Obviously you can do without and are doing it with style already. But unless you have trouble dialing in you're tire pressure on the larger volume plus tires I don't see a downside. I'm not terribly sensitive to being off a bit on the pressure so no down side for me.

If love to see you riding a Boots, or if you can forgive the unpleasant conversation and find a 135mm rear spacing Jones I really agree with Eric that you'd be thrilled with the riding experience.

Tony

[Justin, Oakland]

I feel like you could probably just ask Paul to make a WORD fixed Boost hub. It seems like it’s be up their alley.

[Eric Daume]

Does anyone still make six bolt fixed cogs, or is it strictly DIY? I have a Tomicog or two still in my bin somewhere, but I don’t think he’s making anymore. 

Eric

[Tom Palmer]

Hi all,
I have done several bikepacking trips in Michigan. Nothing crazy bike a lot of sandy, loose soil especially near Lake Michigan. The switch from 2.25 to 2.8 made a big difference and with more gear on the bike, even more so. I have a hunting bike to hunt a non motorized area with 2.8s as well and it works where the 2.25 did not. I also have a 4” tire bike that is usually overkill. For tires, I love the WTB Rangers in 2.8 and 3.0.
The Boots does look pretty cool.
Tom Palmer
Twin Lake, MI

[Deacon Patrick]

Philip, I don’t remember the details, something geometry based.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Tom Palmer]

Hi Eric,
VeloSolo in England has/makes them. As I recall not crazy expensive either and ship to USA.
Tom

[Richard Rios]

On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 2:08:03 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

Maybe try one of these while waiting for gus to arrive...

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/motobecane/fat-bikes/fat-bikes-fant29-ss-fatbikes.htm

Throw on a fixed cog and give it a go. Compared to other options not really all that expensive to try a long term test. After sell it, prolly wouldnt lose to much, or keep it around for kids, Wife, or as a beater / loaner.

Best,
Richard

[Eric Daume]

It's strange, but even with my Jones, I find myself eyeing one of those BD 29+ SS bikes every now and then. I wonder how its 480+mm chainstays would like up against the Jones. Maybe someday when I'm feeling a need to add a bike option to the garage.

Eric

[A. Douglas M.]

I have a pugsley running 26x4, and Im not sure cost is the right word regarding climbing. The traction is unbelievable (a good thing) as is the ability to roll over obstacles. Another facet in the GBW’s favor would be the long chainstays.

The downsides would seem to come into play more on the third of your travels which happen to be upon pavement.

Best,

Aaron
Poconos

[Chris Corral]

Glad to discover at least one other person dumb enough to ride the Colorado Trail fully rigid!

I recently built a modern mountain bike with 27.5x2.8 tires to replace some 29x2.4 tires. the 2.8" was a lot of heft at first but I got used to it. At higher pressures, it can roll pretty quickly. Even at 20-25 psi you can plod along pretty fine. The ability to ride through any terrain, including the loose sand found in Baja, has been indispensable. 29x2.8 would, of course, be heavier and better suited for a larger rider.

Now I couldn't tell you about the fixed gear part. Sounds hard.

On Friday, January 11, 2019 at 2:08:03 PM UTC-8, Deacon Patrick wrote:

[Deacon Patrick]

Hey Chris! Are you in Colorado? Always great to connect with others here. If you’ve not seen it, here is my post on one of the CT trips I did last year: https://thegrid.ai/withabandon/fixed-gear-bikepacking-the-colorado-rockies

With abandon,
Patrick

[Kevin Mulcahy]

Don’t want to derail things, but I thought Boots was 27.5+. Will it also be 29+ in some sizes?

[chris]

I'll take a look on my desktop! 

I love in California, born and bred in El Paso, TX. I will often incorporate visits and bike tours from Denver, Durango, Santa Fe and ABQ to home.

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Chris Corral

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[Deacon Patrick]

Final specs will shoe all, Kevin, but my understanding is it depends on frame size.

Chris, you get around nicely!

With abandon,
Patrick

[Kevin Mulcahy]

I was giving your question some thought and although I've never ridden mtb fixed, I have ridden about 2,000 miles of trail on my 29+ over the past couple years. One thing I've noticed with 29+ is that holding momentum is key. I've found that you've got to accelerate earlier and with more effort through corners and up and down the rollers in order to hold your speed on the flats. Although it feel like more work at times, it kinda evens out because those big wheels carry the momentum well since they aren't hampered as much by rolling over roots and rocks. The way I ride is that I hammer at the top of rollers and just kinda steamroll though any trail chatter, mongolian stlye, in order to get me up the other side. We've got a lot or rollers and short/intense climbs here where I ride. the same goes with rockgardens and root bunches, I just point 'n shoot and unweight my bike as much as possible and try to let let the tires do the work.  I'm not sure you'd be able to do that in quite the same way while riding fixed, is that right? 

So what I trying to say, is that those techniques that I use that seem to make 29+ work for me, all involve coasting!

[Deacon Patrick]

Kevin said: “I'm not sure you'd be able to do that in quite the same way while riding fixed, is that right? ... those techniques that I use that seem to make 29+ work for me, all involve coasting!”

Mongolian style 201: Fixed Gear Mongolian riding. Students learn that coasting isn’t essential, or even always preferable, for allowing the bike to move freely beneath you absorbing terrain. Through field work, students experience how to eliminate those odd jerking motions through smoothly pedaling a flywheel constantly whether climbing, descending, or striving to maintain or even accelerate on the flats. Well, who are we kidding. No flats here. Discover advanced secrets such as lower seat, forward vs rearward weighted climbing, half-weighted climbing for traction, crest line selection to decrease pedal strikes, and posting while spinning like a whirling dirvish. Class taught by the rocks and roots of your local trail. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Adam Leibow]

ive had 29+/3" tires on a mountain bike before, and i've had plenty of knobbies in the 2.1-2.3 range. There is something special that happens around the 2.8 range (with wide rims) where the tire becomes more "dreamy" and floats over thick roots and rocks exponentially better than a 2.1ish tire (where, IME, you still feel a good amount of the obstacle as you roll over it). 

I don't know if you'd feel this sensation with a 3incher on a narrow rim-brake compatible rim. i was using 40mm wide rims with my 29x3" tires, and this definitely added to the magic. Tubeless also adds to the magic.

this being said, i think 3" is overkill for much terrain, and IME you do lose speed on the road (or just flatter, simpler dirt) with so much beef to your tire. for me it would come down to the exact terrain i'm planning to ride, and this would determine my tire choice. if you can handle the slower speed of the 3incher, the fun will make up for it in spades. 

-a

[Deacon Patrick]

Thank you all for the input. You’ve helped me tremendiously. I will be practicing contentment and continue to delight in riding the Hunqabeam and Quickbeam and passing on Boots.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Scott Calhoun]

Late to this thread, but I will chip in as I have some recent experience with plus tires. Last spring, I got a 2018 Salsa Fargo with 27.5 x 3" tires (WTB Rangers set up on wide SunRoc 50mm rims) and I've been off road extensively on the bike on single and multiple day trips, loaded and unloaded. I like the plus tires much more than I expected. The low pressure and volume float over all sorts of surfaces, and on loose climbs, the brute traction is wonderful. I had originally thought about building a second set of wheels with narrower tires, but can't imagine doing that now. In fact, I'm building a Jones LWB Plus to see how I like 29" x 3". 

I should have prefaced my comments above by saying that I also owned a Surly Pugsley and found the 26 x 4" wheels with heavy tires ponderous and prone to self-steering--whereas the current crop of lighter 3" tires for plus bikes seem more lively and responsive.

Scott Calhoun

Tucson, AZ USA

[Deacon Patrick]

Great to hear Scott!

My wife told me I was too hasty, so we shall see. This is the first bike that is a want not a need, so challenging for me to justify. Apparently, she has less challenge. Sardonic grin.

With abandon,
Patrick