Reflections On My Riv and A Weight Loss Program

[Kiley Demond]

Now that my Riv is Gabriel's Riv, and seeing it stripped down to its original glory, I think about what wasn't perfect and what I would like to do for my next bike, a time-honored technique for dealing with loss; in this case, the loss of a bike. 

I love steel frames. I can't imagine not having a steel bike, but since I am 5'10" (the 91 PBH is the real issue), the frame is large, and even though I am strong, I am still a 60-year old woman. My pimped Cheviot was heavy. Getting it up the three steps to my front porch wasn't easy. Given that, what could be done to make one of these bikes lighter? I took Grant's "let's not quibble about weight" philosophy to heart, so when I added some essential accessories, they were all shiny steel. Like stacking tolerances, it all added up. I didn't know much about components when I first got the bike, but I learned from understanding and replacing what I didn't like (and I did end up with the Bosco aluminum bars because they were the "right" size). I could read about it, but I really needed to feel about it. (Speaking of which, I always thought that a Build-a-Bike program would be a great idea. It is a cross between Build-a-Bear and Book Club; you buy the frame and then learn how to build up a bike, and you can swap out components until you find the ones that work for you. The first class is the theoretical parts discussion over a beer or coffee depending on the time of day, where you pick your frame, and subsequent meetings are building and testing riding.)

Anyhow, thoughts on reducing weight on a bike? I figure this needs to be considered at the component level up (or is that down?), if the frame is a given. 

(My next bike will be another mixte or step-thru, which unless something changes in the next two years, will be a Cheviot or L-Clem. I also want it to be e-Bike "compatible". I cannot buy an off-the-rack eBike because no one makes a mixte or step-thru large enough, and I still want the bike to be a pleasure to ride!)

Kiley

[Lum Gim Fong]

My speculative thoughts on reducing weight on a bike but still keeping good functionality:

1. Luggage - use luggage that requires no rack. Try light bags: Sackville banana sax and sackville bartube, Brooks Milford, etc.

2. Lighter wheelsets.  Aerohead by Velocity I think is their lightest rim that is Rivish ( and will fit wide tires). One of the Mavic Open Pro models is like 405 g rim. Shimano 105 hubs may be lighter than typical Rivbuild Deore? Guessing?

3. Remove fenders (they act as hood scoops and sails to catch air and slow you down. I don't care what Bicycle Quarterly says.

4. Don't use a Rando box shaped front bag - flatness of the front of the bag pushes air, slowing you down, I don't care what Bicycle Quarterly says. Plus Berthoud bags are heavy, even empty, even without the stiffners. My GB25 is a little over 600 grams empty/no stiffner. Sackville bartube is a little over 100g. Of course, the GB25 is more functional than a bartube, but with the also lightweight banana sax...or 400+g Milford you are still at less weight than a GB25 bag.

5. Carbon non-structural stuff all over bike: bottle cages, derailers, bike pump, etc.

6. Go to DT shifting to save weight on cables/housings and give bike cleaner look.

7. Losing body fat - changing your power to weight ratio should help make it easier pedalling on down the road.

8. Any component replaced has to be lighter than the previous one.

9. Use lightweight tires like Grand Bois tires.

10. Remove any bike computers and fittings and use a cycling phone app instead if you carry a cell phone anyway when you ride.

I think it is a balancing act. Keeping the bike light but with the functionality you want.

[Deacon Patrick]

Hey Kiley! Sounds like you’re asking excellent questions. Not knowing you or the layout of your steps, my comments may be off, so let me know where I’ve buggered it! Grin.

First, how did you get the bike up the three steps? Lift and carry? Or roll up, pushing on the handlebars/frame/saddle while standing beside it? Bikepacking with an 85 pound rig (bike et al), I don’t lift it over much of anything, but I roll it up a lot. With some practice, this may make any bike easier.

Second, do you know what your last bike weighed built up? That gives you a target weight that you need to get x pounds under, once you have an idea of what you can get (lift or roll) up the steps. Were you happy with the bike otherwise?

Third, the simplest way would be to get the bike (frame and components) you like, but not add on extras except a (x)small saddle bag to carry bits and bobs, and water bottle cage(s). Get used to how that works, then add a rack etc and desired, one thing at a time and see what works for you.

Your build a bike idea is great! It’s kind of what we do here, via the buy/sell posts. Except beer and whisky don’t travel well through the compter. Grin. Whatever you decide, enjoy the journey — it’s a blast learning!

With abandon,
Patrick

[Bill Lindsay]

The novelist E.L Doctorow gave a lecture that I attended 25 years ago.  His novel "Billy Bathgate" had just been made into a movie.  He was amused by the movie making term about budget "bringing it in".  The movie was "brought in" at $65million, or something like that.  He said he was able to "bring in" the novel at around $27.75.  I've used that term ever since for builds with a objective weight target, or a qualitative weight objective.  I recently brought in a Legolas build at 19 pounds, a Leo at 22 pounds.  I imagine somebody could bring in a Cheviot at 24 pounds or so.  I estimate that would be about a $5000 Cheviot and would not have fenders, racks, bags, or a kickstand. 

The fact is: the weight of your bike matters only as much as you say it matters.  If you say it doesn't matter, then it doesn't.  If you say it does matter, then it does.  Do you have an objective target?

Teh straightforward approach is to make a comprehensive build list and weigh everything.  Your bike will weigh the sum of all its parts.  Weigh them all and add it up.  If it's not the total you want, take things away and replace parts with lighter ones on your list until you get to where you need to be. 

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Ryan M.]

I got a Roadeo to 19 lbs by using Rolf Vigor wheels, Compass Stampede Pass tires, Ultegra 11 speed groupset, and a decently lightweight saddle setup. I still had a threaded fork and a Nitto lugged stem on that build. Never once had a problem with that bike.

You can lose weight on a bike by not going with a Brooks and instead go with a quality modern saddle using Ti rails. I have a Bontrager saddle that is just stupidly light, but still tough and comfy.

Ditch the fenders (just get wet if you happen to ride in the rain), racks (use rackless bags), dyno hub lighting systems (bontrager Ion lights are light weight and super bright and last), heavy canvas bags (look for modern bikepacking bags made of x-pac), get a cassette and crank that are unheavy. ;)  It all adds up. Just remember that modern groupsets from Shimano, especially in the Ultegra/Dura Ace range are really quite light and work very well. I got e-tap on my cross bike and the stuff is just amazing and not heavy at all. (yes, I would have no problem sticking electronic groupset on a Rivendell...it wouldn't be my first choice though.

My Appaloosa is not built like I just described (no fenders or dyno lighting setup, I'm using Cliffhanger rims and Deore hubs, and I have chaco moose bars even), but if I were really looking for weight savings you can find it in the drivetrain components, wheels, and saddle.

[Reid Echols]

I'd second all this advice, and suggest that if you start anywhere, the wheels will probably pay the largest dividends, not only when you carry the bike, but when you ride as well. A good set of thoughtfully chosen and handbuilt wheels set up with your main use case in mind, with some light and supple tires, will feel like a whole new bike.

Reid in Austin 

[LeRoy]

I may have missed something obvious, but it didn't seem that your issues with the bike's weight involved dissatisfaction with the actual riding. The issue seemed to rear it's head when it came to physically lifting the bike up a set of porch steps. Forgive me if I've misunderstood the root of the weight issue, but I wonder it the matter might be solved with something like the "lift handle" built into one of the Rosco Bubbe models (called the Bubbe Lifter Tube)?

Lifting a bike can be unwieldy, all the more so when you have to grab it up high on the frame (poor leverage position + poor front-to-rear load balance), then lift and carry while trying to keep the fork and front wheel pointed in the right direction. For most people, lifting with an ergonomically positioned "handle" at a low, balanced point on the frame is much easier: Stand on the left side, lift with the right hand, stabilize the front wheel with the left hand on the bars.

Might there be some sort of add-on lifting handle or device that makes this part of the job easier for you?

LeRoy

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 2:56:35 PM UTC-4, Kiley Demond wrote:

... My pimped Cheviot was heavy. Getting it up the three steps to my front porch wasn't easy.

[Joe Bernard]

All things being equal, parts wise, you're not going to get much lighter in Riv World than a stripped Cheviot. Roadini would do it, but you want a step-thru/mixte, so that's out. Then there's the matter of e-kitting it, which erases any practical weight-savings you accomplished..in that situation you'll be pushing the "walk" button so the motor helps you guide the bike up the stairs. If that is your ultimate goal I would forget the weight concern and get a Clem L: it's a great bike stripped or racked up, and a good base for a motor because of the strong frame and brakes. In my opinion - having built both - Cheviot isn't quite up to an ebike build.

[Kiley Demond]

Oh, I would lift and push/drag. I could lift it, but not a pleasant experience. Mind you, I had come from a 50lb Dutch bike so initially, the Chev felt spritely. I always wished it had one of those crossbar "handles" like some bikes have. One of the few cons of mixte frames is carrying it. Slinging a standard frame bike over the shoulder is so easy by comparison.

I wish I knew what it weighed. It wasn't overdressed; it was tastefully pimped, and I want to explore options. See the photo I added to the main post.

[Deacon Patrick]

You can have a leather handle made, similar to a leather briefcase handle (or a quick version is to tie leather on yourself, beef up the handle as you please) to make a carry handle. Entire challenge solved!

With abandon,
Patrick

[Andrew Letton]

In lieu of a Bubbe Lifter Tube, you could try one of these:

Bicycle Frame Handle - The "Little Lifter" - Leather Bike Handle

Bicycle Frame Handle - The "Little Lifter" - Leather Bike Handle Our Little Lifter Frame Handle offers a solution to a common bicycle commuting problem: it makes lifting and man...

Disclaimer: I haven't used one...but they look like they'll work well.

cheers,

Andrew

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From: LeRoy <bobsh...@gmail.com>
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 7:04 AM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Reflections On My Riv and A Weight Loss Program

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[Deacon Patrick]

Sure you want to sell all those beautiful part and bits now? Grin. Right size frame, those parts, and a handle, and you’re right as rain!

With abandon,
Patrick

[Kiley Demond]

Aw, geez. You must be one of those linear thinking sorts. I’m not. I have flashes of organizational brilliance, love databases like life itself, but I lack spatial cognition. The spatial cognition department is responsible for any sort of measurement: weight, distance, length. I shall spare you some hilarious stories about the consequences of errors I have made in those areas. Do I have a weight objective? No. Just better than before. Everything has a trade off, weight vs. cost vs. aesthetics vs. ???. 

Here’s how I would describe different approaches: my boyfriend (who I have probably mentioned passed away of pancreatic cancer in March at 61), was an excellent foil for me. In 1974, he became the youngest certified auto mechanic in Arizona history, and went on to be an airplane mechanic, professional pilot, and entrepreneur. He was very rational. I will refrain from describing myself beyond saying I am creative and resourceful, capable of generating a lot of possibility. When we talked about buying cars, he would always say, how much do you want to spend? I said, I figure out the kind of car I want (I am rational in this area), and then utilize every means possible to locate it at the best cost possible. He said, he figures out how much he wants to spend and then looks for the most car he can get for the money. 

RE: Stacking tolerances. I worked for a computer manufacturer back in the '80s and '90s. We built computers in Fremont, CA. Sometimes, the computers didn’t go together. The engineers were puzzled. I was a materials manager and all the parts were built to spec, the suppliers were not at fault. Well, it turned out that if enough parts were at the outer limit of their tolerance, it added up to enough that it didn’t all fit. So, while I can say weight doesn’t matter for this part or that part, if there are enough of them, not mattering can add up to a lot. Or as my son would say, it’s not spending on the big things that makes you broke, it’s all the little things. 

I will bring it in the best way possible. 

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[Kiley Demond]

One thing to remember is that it is a 60cm. This was before fenders (which were the SKS plastic. Thank heavens I nixed the steel ones!).

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 11:56:35 AM UTC-7, Kiley Demond wrote:

[Kiley Demond]

Thank you, your post has a lot of good information. 

[Kiley Demond]

I knew it was time to learn about wheels... one area I have not spent much time because it was not something I intended to replace on my Cheviot. But now that I am starting from scratch.... 

[Kiley Demond]

A lifting handle would definitely be a benefit and I had wished for one. How the weight contributed to riding pleasure was when I had to dismount and lift it over a chain across the trail entrance (it holds a gate closed so larger vehicles can't gain access, or if I had to park it in a rack. So, yes, much of the impact was when I was off the bike, although mounting/dismounting is more unwieldy as well. I do miss my youthful days of just swinging the leg over the back tire while moving...! I am searching my neural database for actual issues when in motion and I think it has to do with not being or at least feeling, nimble. 

[Edwin W]

If you ever do want an ebike, my wife’s Faraday Cortland S in M (they don’t make the step through model in L) feels very comfortable to me, at 6’ with 90 PBH. I’ve even ridden my business partner’s Small many miles comfortably.

Disclaimer, I am a Faraday dealer!

Edwin
Morebikenashville.com

[Kiley Demond]

Probably a Clem L in the future in any color as long as it’s orange. It was what I went to Riv to buy when the darn lugs and deeper orange on the Cheviot caused me to misplace my rational mind.

I am keeping the alum Bosco bars. And the BrickLane front rack and basket. And the cables. None of the other parts I’m parting with are right for the next bike. If I think they will go on the next bike, I’m keeping them. Even keeping the pedals which are crazy heavy, but they are the ones that were best for my riding by a lot, although I might entertain the form factor out of a lighter material.

[Joe Bernard]

Ooh, my Roadini's orange on a Clem L would be sweet. Hey Grant!

[Kiley Demond]

Yup, I saw those. I didn’t like the aesthetic and it interfered with something more important already on the bike. I used to carry it into my bedroom to work on while staying at my sister’s. My Cheviot just had a big footprint: Bosco bars, high seat. Hard to explain, but the bike looked like the rider would be about six inches taller than I am. It was the price of comfort.

[Wally Estrella]

Kiley,

For the steps I'd suggest installing a board to the outer edge of the steps to roll up or down. Keep it wide enough for getting the bike on, but narrow enough to not become a trip hazard.

CHEERS!

Wally

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 2:56:35 PM UTC-4, Kiley Demond wrote:

[phil k]

IME changing tires has the best cost to benefit, in some cases it may not even cost more. I switched from Schwable to Compass tires (Compass tires were a bit cheaper actually), and lost almost 2 pounds.

Your other biggest value is figuring out how much you actually NEED to carry. I used to carry a few patches, a couple of tubes, large air pump, and multiple tools. I now only carry a spurcycle multitool (super light and very convenient!), a patch, and a spare tube if I'm going on longer rides. Probably saved me another pound or so.

My next biggest weight was bags and racks. A Marks front rack is about a pound or so. Then a basket is another pound. Then another canvas bag can be another pound or as well. I switched to rear bag that just straps onto my saddle loops. XPAC also makes the bag weigh much less. I also run a rackless front bag. This also saved me some weight as well.

I think the thing to keep in mind is how useful and convenient you want your bike to be. A basket with a front bag is super convenient. Running triple crankset is super convenient. Sometimes convenience has a weight penalty. I'm actually thinking of going back to the basket up front, just because it was so convenient. 

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 2:56:35 PM UTC-4, Kiley Demond wrote:

[John Phillips]

Hi Kiley,

    Wally's idea of installing a ramp on the steps is a good one, unless your steps are too steep and your new bike too heavy to push up as you climb your steps.

Even better, could you remodel your porch? Put in something like a wheel chair access ramp?

We are 56 & 59, and live on the 3rd floor of our building. We carry our Betty Foy, Hunqapillar & A Homer Hilsen through narrow twisting hallways, up and down 2 flights of stairs at home, plus stairs at train and metro rail stations, and so we have a little experience with your problem with carrying bikes up down stairs, and here's what works for us:

1) Those leather strap handles really work. Your bikes center of gravity is nice & low and much more comfortable. I ordered ours from Walnut Studiolo:  Walnut Studiolo "Little Lifter"

2) I took the racks off the bikes. Back racks make carrying a bike more difficult. Carrying a bike with the weight of a rack in the front is easier than carrying a bike with a rack in the back, but no racks at all makes carrying easier. I use a lightweight daypack or messenger bag, something left over from my commuting days. If your stuff if secure on your back, it's much easier to carry your bike.

OR: I use a Pass & Stow porteur rack on the front, and use a lightweight porteur bag with a shoulder strap. Some people are making them out of X-PAC these days. I skip the basket. This is heavier than a small front rack & basket, but more secure, and the weight distribution is still good when it comes time to climb up or down the stairs. I carry the bag on my shoulder when I need to negotiate stairs.

Best of luck,

John

[Patrick Shea]

I used to take the train to South San Francisco for a horrible job loading trucks for UPS. Some trains, usually the ones at night (11pm-ish) had steep steps with the bottom step being about two feet off the ground. I had to lift my fendered, large Wald-basketed, Schwalbe-tired, and Surly-racked Fargo up these killers. The new trains have lower, and fewer steps which was a big improvement but they rarely came at night. Oh yeah, this is Cal Train in SF that I'm referring to.

Anyway, there were nights when I'd grab the rail to help myself up and the bike was so heavy I'd find myself falling backwards. Getting off the train was slightly easier but once I lifted the bike and stepped down, all bets were off.

I solved my problem by switching to my Moots fixed gear. It has a Carridice Camper on the back with a ti Bagman support. True, I carried a buch of items in my large PAC messenger bag but the Carradice had cans of water for the train, rain gear if needed, sweaty clothes from work, and an assortment of lights.

Once I quit my job, the problem was instantly solved!

Once I removed the fenders, the basket, the Surly front rack, and the weight dropped off like I was eating bacon and not jogging. But the Fargo is still too heavy to lift up or carry down stairs.

Now, my commute is about two miles and I use my Moots. I took off the XTR pedals and installed MKS metal ones so I can ride in my work boots. I'm going to reinstall my Schmidt lighting so I can dump the Niterider and the whole recharging issue. It's still got the Camper and a Brooks Swallow ti saddle. I'm going back to a steel fork and Jintensha bars. It will still be a pretty light, easily carried bike.

Way more info than anybody but me needs but I felt your pain!

Anyone need a medium Fun Guy 2008-10ish Salsa Frago f/f/silver CK hs, and Deore triple crank/BB30?

$250 plus shipping? I'll put up a separate FS posting but I figured if you made it this far...

Rock On, 

Patrick "where did this flab come from" Shea

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[Kiley Demond]

Thank you for the great reply! I agree it is a balancing act.

[Kiley Demond]

Thanks, Wally. The steps were really only an example; prior to my Chev going to Gabriel, I moved it to the shop so there were no steps involved. It's just the overall agility. I know it is all about tradeoffs and options to consider when deciding on those tradeoffs.

[Kiley Demond]

Thanks, Phil. Tires and wheels will be the object of my next OCD research binge. I really didn't focus on weight at all during my Cheviot build; it only needed to be shiny, preferably steel, and not made in China.

[Clayton]

Lose the double kickstand and the wheel lock and get a Titanium bow lock. Replace the kickstand with a rear triangle mounted one like a Greenfield. Like you, I originally didn’t worry too much about the weight of my Atlantis. I ordered a double kickstand as that was what everyone said was the Bees knees, but it was ridiculously heavy. My old Tubus rack was lighter than my current Nitto if for additional weight savings too, but the esthetics are not quite as nice on a Riv.

Here is a link for the lock: https://www.tigrlock.com/store/tigrmini/?utm_content=99

Then there is a single chainring set up, with carbon cranks and a hollow bottom bracket which is very expensive, but would dump a lot of weight. I have them on my Atlantis.

Last little bit of advice..... lift weights. I am 62 and the muscles are falling off my body, so I lift light weights to stay functional. I live on a second floor walk up, and I live without a car, so my bike gets carried up my stairs daily (my weight lift program😐). I get it.

For technique, I reach down with my right hand and grab the seat tube (over the top tube) down around the front derailleur area, and with my left I grab the front rack to lift the front wheel above the stairs. A leather handle just adds weight. Lightening a bike is about taking stuff off.

And last, but not least, lightening a bike is a rabbit hole and can get expensive. I love my Atlantis and have been slowly perfecting it and lightening it over the past twenty years. Name you bike “Lola”, because she always get what she wants, 😀.

I hope this helps.

Clayton
#DirtDanceDesigns

[Kiley Demond]

Thanks, Clayton. My Cheviot was “Heidi”. I know about Tigr locks (it will be hard for someone to tell me about a product I don’t already know about; just part of my crazy). My Dutch bike (Matilda) came with a frame lock and I loved its convenience, and the Tigr was so expensive — but, at that point I wasn’t weight conscious, very likely the Tigr will be the next lock. Thanks.

Yep, staying is shape is priority! I grew up in NYC and walked everywhere so even now driving as the main mode of transportation is strange to me. In college, rode my bike all over southern California because I didn’t have a car, but I was used to having everything at my fingertips. I would ride 10 or 15 miles just to see what a store carried. A big adjustment was driving to go running. What? Driving to the Rosebowl to run around it?  Lifting weights is a good idea. I lifted weights since 1978 in So Cal and only stopped when my life went off the rails in 2014. I have always been crazy strong and I don’t want to lose it or mobility, so thank you for that reminder as well. 

Yup, tried the Tubus and the aesthetics lost. I’ll have to think about a future rear rack. I will have racks because I like them much more than bags. That’s one of those tradeoffs.

Great bits of information; Riv 2.0 will be patience-driven black hole — in the future. The Cheviot was a pell-mell, silver-only, aesthetically-pleasing black hole. 

-Kiley

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