Almost OT, Mini Moto vs Neo Retro

[Michael Hechmer]

I have decide to get our tandem repainted over the winter and as part of that am considering moving from the Paul's Racer (studded) brakes to either Mini Motos or  Neo Retros.  I want to  increase brake clearance from the 38MM w/fenders of the ctr pulls, which otherwise are great brakes.  I have lots of experience and love my Neo-Retros but no experience with V brakes.  Can  someone help me understand a bit about steup/stability of the mini-moto and the braking power vs either good CP or the neo retros?

Braking on a tandem is rather different than a single.  On the one hand you have twice the mass and on the other hand the rear wheel has much less tendency to lift and therefore more braking power.

Thanks, Michael

[Justin August]

I don't think that the Mini-Moto will gain you much clearance, realistically. Mud clearance, yes. Stopping power, perhaps. For more clearance you'd be better off with the Moto-lites or the more traditional cantis. However, with the Moto-lites you'd have to get the correct pull levers.

I personally LOVE the Mini-Moto and if I got another bike with canti posts, I'd use them in a heartbeat if they cleared the tires. I had them on my SimpleOne and they cleared Nomad Resist 700x45 tires. No fenders, probably could have fit with some rubbing of the wire.

-J

[Tony McG]

The mini-moto work very well on my old Santana Noventa; they saves our lives twice on RAGBRAI last year.

[Michael Hechmer]

The Racers open just enough to clear our 26x1.5 Marathon Racers, which are near the end of life.  Those brakes have a 55mm opening at the top but I have managed to get 60 mm metal fenders under them by dropping them down a bit.  I want to go to the Compass 1.75 tire w/out having to deflate the tires to remove the wheel.  I think you are saying the Mini Ms will work but not as well as the Retros.  I don't want to change levers as I really like my Tecktros.

Michael

[Matthew J]

Mini-Motos have excellent stopping power, are easy to set up and look very good.  I was not able to get the front brake to work over a fender however as the cable between the two sides is relatively low compared to other Mini-Motos.  I did not want to use cantis so wound up using TRP mini-vs instead.

[Mark Reimer]

No way Neo Retro's on a tandem in my opinion. I have the neo-retros on my CX bike and the touring canit's on my Atlantis. The touring canti's have substantially more stopping power than the neo retros. However, they still aren't anywhere near what I'd consider safe when descending a steep hill/mountain with a heavy load, particularly in the rain. 

Mini motos would have tons more stopping power than the canti's, but fender clearance would be the bit challenge as the cable is quite low. As was mentioned, the moto-lite's would ensure you can use basically any tire you want (with a fender) and have the most stopping power of any Paul brake. Just need to have a long-pull brake lever.

[Justin August]

If the Moto-lites are out due to levers and not wanting to use a travel agent, you could always cut a slit in the fender to allow the Mini-Moto to have it's wire there. The Mini-Moto will definitely open wider than the Racer, since you can easily unhook the noodle. 

-J

[David Person]

If you went to a V brake that required a long pull brake lever or the use of Travel Agents (TA) I would avoid the TA's.  I tried them and did not like them at all.  The brake action did not feel smooth at all with them installed.  

David

On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 5:08:14 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:

[Tony DeFilippo]

Interesting thread to me!  I've got a Burley canti-braked tandem and a pair of Moto-Lite brakes I've been considering trying.  Actually the wait has been getting the 700C from 27" wheel conversion, 38mm tire install and fender install complete to make sure I retain enough clearance...

I'm only missing the fender install but they are in the garage now to so I'm about out of excuses...  I'll need to re-run cable housing/replace the cable housing of course which is a pain and I'll need to get some appropriate levers.  I'll try to move it up on the priority list so I can give you some feedback Michael!

[T.O.M.]

Here's another option (Canti's) from Rodriguez Cycles: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/bigsqueeze.html  Seem to have lots of fender clearance and perhaps allow  use of your current levers.  We've not tried them thus can not provide any opinion on their effectiveness. 

Our non-Riv-type tandem runs BB7 disc brakes, they're great.  Do have the Moto Lites that we briefly used on the tandem's OE wheels while we were sorting out rim failures with the disc brake wheels. The Moto's performed quite well while they were on; wet or dry conditions.  Much better than the (Tektro?) OE V-Brakes the bike came with. Must say though, we don't run fenders or do any loaded touring. YMMV

T.O.M. (The Other Manny)

On Sunday, August 30, 2015 at 5:08:14 PM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:

I have decide to get our tandem repainted over the winter and as part of that am considering moving from the Paul's Racer (studded) brakes to either Mini Motos or  Neo Retros.  I want to  increase brake clearance from the 38MM w/fenders of the ctr pulls, which otherwise ...............................................................................

[Julian]

Interesting. I've heard good things about Paul cantilevers, but is there something about the Paul cantilever designs that is problematic for tandem use, or are you saying you feel cantilevers in general are not tandem suitable? 

I run cantilevers (vintage Suntour XC Pros) on a custom 650b Bilenky tandem and have great stopping power -- we're a big team (I'm 6'7, 240 lbs, my stoker is small, 5'3", 110 lbs) but have no issues with those in normal use. We do have a drum brake we add for loaded self-supported tent-camping touring with a trailer, but cantilevers alone are fine when unloaded -- not only here in flat IL, but in trips in Western PA and in CO. 

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, IL 

[Michael Hechmer]

Mark, I'm disinclined to dispute someones personal experience, but yours doesn't match mine. I wonder if your experience comes from set up.  The neos want a hi straddle cable and the touring a very low one. This makes sense to me from my, admittedly limited, knowledge of Newtonian Physics. I have never used the touring cantis but have had a pair of neos on a pair of singles for many years.  They can easily lift my rear wheel off the ground and stop my bike in short order.

In addition the Paul's site says this about the neos:

These are very powerful brakes and have a tendency to over power thin tubed frames (in any material). For none-      too-stout frames and forks we recommend our Touring Canti.

And this about the touring canti:

The Touring Canti is a powerful cantilever brake with a similar design to the Neo-Retro, but with the arms angled upward. This gives the brake a much narrower profile without significantly reducing stopping power. 

I'm 71, and together the tandem team is 140, so we are not thrill seekers.  We ride the hills of Vt unloaded quite successfully with theRacers on our tandem and tour in gentler terrain with the tandem fully loaded.  I'm looking for increased tire clearance w/out any loss of power.

Peace,

Michael

[Michael Hechmer]

Thanks Manny.  I owe my life to Paul's and that is my default position, but the Rodriguez design is very interesting and their overall comparison of V brakes, disk brakes, and cantis rings true for me.  Except for the part about ease of setup.  I have found some cantis really easy and some to be nightmarishly difficult.  I suppose if you work in a shop you get past that.  I'll need to ponder this.

Michael

[Mark Reimer]

I can also lift my rear wheel off the ground on my CX bike with neo-retros, though it takes some doing. I have a high straddle cable for mud clearance and optimal straddle cable angle. The touring cant's have a lower straddle, same brake pads on both sets. I've always found the touring canti's to stop me much faster and have better modulation. 

When it comes to the physics of it, I usually defer to this article, which says it all much better than I can:

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/canti-geometry.pdf

And this one, for great photos of examples: http://www.blackmtncycles.com/2013/03/get-most-out-of-your-canit-brake.html

All this does make me curious to try lowering my neo-retro straddle cable for increased mechanical advantage. My experience mimics how the first linked article describes a straddle cable which is too high - feels great at the lever, but doesn't have as much stopping power as you'd hope for. I'll try lowering it a bit and see if I can increase my stopping power.

Either way, I love Paul canti's and canti's in general. But I still affirm that the next time I do loaded touring in the mountains and I'm coming down at 75km/h on a 90lb bike, in the rain maybe, I want v-brakes or discs.

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[Michael Hechmer]

Mark, as I wrote in my last post, I never dispute someones personal experience.  If you feel you are getting better braking out of the low profile brake, stay with it.

I don't have the energy now to wade through the mathematics of the first article you linked, but the second one clearly makes my point, the straddle wire wants to be 90o to the brake arm, hence hi profile wants hi straddle and low profile wants low straddle.  

Disks and V brakes were originally designed for mountain bikes and although they may work well on tandems and touring bikes, that is not their design goal.  Disks have a reputation for overheating and warping on tandems.  I have ver little experience with V brakes, but as long as they don't crowd the fender I can't see why they wouldn't work as well as traditional cantis.  I guess what we agree on here is how well Pauls brakes work.

Michael

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/01/2015 06:09 PM, Michael Hechmer wrote:
> I have ver little experience with V brakes, but as long as they don't
> crowd the fender I can't see why they wouldn't work as well as
> traditional cantis.

Don't most V brakes have a cable pull incompatibility with road bike
brake levers and integrated brake/shift levers like SIS, DoubleTap & Ergo?

[Matthew J]

> Don't most V brakes have a cable pull incompatibility with road bike 
> brake levers and integrated brake/shift levers like SIS, DoubleTap & Ergo? 

Many do not work well with modern road bike levers.*  Certainly the Motolites would prove touchy.  Mini-Moto's and the TRP Mini-Vs do work.

*Just goofing around a few years back I paired Motolites to vintage Campy non-aero levers which seemed to pull the Pauls just fine.  Maybe an engineer here understands the design difference from then and now?

[Brewster Fong]

Yes, "regular v-brakes" (i.e., 90mm or more length arms) are designed to work with levers that have a longer pull. However, the "mini-v" (i.e., 84mm or so length arms) works works well with integrated shifters.  On my old cross bike, I had a pair of crappy Suntour xc pro canti brakes with Campy ergo shifters. No matter what I did, I just couldn't keep the front brake from shuddering, squealing and vibrating. It was so bad that I could easy see my fork vibrating as I was braking, it was terrible!  Even when adjusted, it would last like a day or so and then back to the racket! 

 

Then I tried a cheapie $20 Tektro 926al mini-v on just the front and wow, night and day!  No more shuddering, squealing or vibrating!  The braking was as good as my road bikes that have single pivot brakes.  I gave away the suntour and am now a big believer in mini-v brakes for road levers. 

 

Good Luck!