Racer loves Rivendell

[Patrick Moore]

There's a definite negative attitude on this list toward racers. Me, I like watching racers in a well-coordinated paceline or climbing efficiently or descending skillfully; never raced worth mentioning myself. Our local roadies are friendly, and I think 40 year old racing bikes have much to recommend them as road-biased all rounders.

That said, I rode my (modestly racer-like, albeit fixed gear) gofast to Fat Tire Bicycles this afternoon to pick up a new (black, clamp on, 1 1/8") stem for the Fargo (new, longer reach bar) and a tandem rd cable (running the housing along the bar to exit with brake housing near stem). The young man at the register saw the '99 Joe and praised it and described the Legolas he races local cross on. He installed a straight bar because his background is downhill mtb racing, but he finds it much more comfortable than his CF cross bike, and says that it doesn't slow him down (he loses ground to roadies on the flats/straights, but gets ahead on twisties thanks to his mtb handling skills.

So, there. 

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

*************************************

The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. Aristotle

The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. Dante  

[George Millwood]

I love watching the BORAF.  Here in Oz, I have to sit up to 02:00 to watch the live broadcast on free to air.The scenery is fabulous, the photography is stunning and the peleton is a riot of colour and movement.  What's not to like?  This year there seemed to be some human frailty in the riders and a genuine contest but I was really watching for the aerial shots of twenty one (21) corner switchbacks.  We also get a chef doing an insert on the gastronomic specialities of the region they are visiting that night/day and the commentary gives the lowdown on the Chateaux and villages the route passes. 

[Lungimsam]

The pro cycling people must have very good reasons to ride what they ride. I don't think these people are dummies.

While I am not enamoured with them, I have respect for people who can go 20+mph average speeds and pump out sustained 400+ watts on mountain climbs for 40+ minutes at a time. They worked awfully hard for it. And while speed isn't everything in the whole picture of bike riding, I think it is a valid form of bicycle use. and it is quite an accomplishment to be able to ride like that.

But I do think it would be fun to kid them though in some good-natured, chiding-fun way by stationing people with signs 2/3rds along the TdeF routes that say: "If you were on a Roadeo, you'de be done by now.".

[Patrick Moore]

Make that: "If you were on a Clem, you'd be done by now."

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[Mark Reimer]

I'm another Riv rider who loves racing. I'm actually a co-organizer of the Canadian Cyclocross National Championships for the past two years, and also race the odd road race and (gasp) even a crit or two. Racing can be a LOT of fun. Not racing is super fun too. Point being, riding bikes rules, period. 

[Doug Williams]

I just think that racing has a negative impact on bike design for the general public. Keep BORAF and races like that if you want, but I would like to see many more "real world races" on "real world bikes" which would influence bicycle purchases in a POSITIVE rather than a negative manner. Current races glamorize super lightweight, super fragile bikes. Have "equipment endurance racing events" (or whatever you want to call them) and make the racers start and finish on the SAME bike, carry all their tools and spare parts, and make all their own in race repairs.This would glamorize USEFUL bikes and encourage bike makers to make useful bikes available to the public, instead of the ridiculously impractical bikes glamorized in most races. Who goes on their daily ride with a van with 3 spare bikes, spare parts, and a mechanic following? Why would you want to buy and ride a bike that requires that logistics trail?

True, we all know about RBW and other such bikes on this list. But I bet that the average bike purchaser does NOT. Equipment Endurance type races on durable and repairable bikes would help educate the buying public and steer them onto a bike that would be much better for them than the typical MCRB. Again, the only race rules would be:

(1) Start and finish on the same bike.

(2) Carry all your own repair parts and tools.

(3) Make all your own in race repairs.

No other design rules would be necessary. Bike manufacturers would be encouraged to manufacture and advertise bikes that would be useful to the public. 

Doug

[Eric Daume]

What useful bikes are being kept from buyers? Hybrids, city bikes, cyclocross bikes, fat tire gravel bikes... All are easily available. 

I think it's time to stop the narrative that people only buy MCFR bikes because that's all that's available, or they're somehow forced to. People have more options than ever, and can buy what they want. 

Eric "but no MCFR bike for me" Daume

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[Doug Williams]

Nobody ever said that only MCRB's are available. I just said that only MCRB's are raced and glamorized, and that "real world" bike design could benefit from the same testing and glamour that MCRB's receive. I'm advocating "race testing" of practical, durable, and reliable bikes. Reliability would be "race tested". That would provide useful information to the public. Wouldn't you be interested to know which "fast bike" could complete a long race with the fewest repairs and the most reliability? I might buy that bike.

Doug

[Bill Lindsay]

Is there any form of competition that glamorizes real world equipment? Certainly not cars. Too many golfers buy the clubs and balls the pros use. I can't think of an example. Glamorizing the normal would make it not-normal, at least partially.

[George Millwood]

The Dutch love bike racing but the country is awash with normal bikes.  I have friends who live in Hilversum, a village outside of Amsterdam, and it is a real education to sit at a cafe in the shopping centre there and watch the horde of people turn up on normal bicycles to shop at the supermarket, go to the chemist, get a snack all on bicycles.

[Doug Williams]

Good point, but we really need bike education here in the US. The Dutch have extensive bike education starting in early school and going all the way up. I am an LCI, and I have taught "How to Choose a Bike" classes. I assure you, the level of ignorance among the general public is breath taking. People really think that MCRB's will make them 10 MPH faster than a normal bike. When I do the "One MPH faster for every 12 pounds" math and show them that the difference in their commute time is more like 30 seconds, their eyes open up. Then I tell them that they spent more time than that putting on their special shoes and jersey. The Dutch know that...Americans do not.

Doug

[Ron Mc]

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 8:17:29 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

There's a definite negative attitude on this list toward racers. 

no there isn't.  

We don't like bike snobs on racing bikes, we don't like an industry  that models itself after cutting-edge racing, and 30-something salespersons trying to put everybody on a cutting-edge racing bike or a cheap cookie-cutter facsimile, and pigeonholing everybody else.  

A nice enough guy otherwise looking over my upright at a water stop last weekend - after our in depth conversation was near over - said, "so you built yourself a cruiser"  

I made a point to pass him and leave him in the dust from my Italian Huffy.  

Made up for it yesterday on a greenway trail - ran across a fellow Grant Kool-Aid imbiber, who was riding a really nice upright built on a Miyata Triple Cross.and we shared a great stop  

[Daniel D.]

Here's this years Tour Divide winner, Josh Kato's Salsa Fargo TI.  Clipless pedals, shocks, XTR, drops, and disc brakes it is :p.

http://www.bikepacking.com/gear/salsa-fargo-ti-josh-kato-tour-divide/

[Montclair BobbyB]

There are lots of similarities between the car industry (and how they appeal to individual tastes) and the bike industry... and it shouldn't surprise us that the type of person who gravitates towards sleek, fast sports cars may also gravitate towards sleek fast sporty bikes, that's all...

I drive a Honda Element. I like utility-focused bikes that can do many things in all kinds of weather on all kinds of terrain... gee, kinda like my car... I'd love to drive someone's Corvette, but I'd never want to own one... same as I'd love to take my friend's Pinarello Dogma around the block and declare "WOW that's so light and so fast"... but I'd never want to own one.

To each his own, that's the beauty of having a robust and healthy industry that can appeal to many different tastes. 

Peace and Love of All Bikes... BB   

[Mike Schiller]

now that Fargo is a race bike!  no pansy bike with upright "prairie dog" bars.  and a carbon fork too!!

[Bill Lindsay]

What is a "pansy bike"? What are "prairie dog bars"?

[pb]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 9:53:51 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

What are "prairie dog bars"?  

 

[Ron Mc]

I didn't even know prarie dogs consumed alcohol

[pb]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 5:26:29 AM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 8:17:29 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

There's a definite negative attitude on this list toward racers. 

no there isn't.  

Gosh, I sure perceive one, and it started at the source.  It pervaded the Reader for years.  I'm not slamming Grant -- he and I have subsequently handled this, and we're good.   

 

We don't like bike snobs on racing bikes, we don't like an industry  that models itself after cutting-edge racing, and 30-something salespersons trying to put everybody on a cutting-edge racing bike or a cheap cookie-cutter facsimile, and pigeonholing everybody else.  

A few months back, after reading a boblist statement along these lines, I called every sizeable bike shop within about 15 miles of my house in San Diego.  San Diego has a culture of racing, and especially of triathlon, so you'd think that might pervade bike shops.  I told the sales people I was going to send a friend in, who wanted to start cycling.  I don't remember how I described that fictional friend ... a middle-aged normal non-cyclist person.  I asked the salespeople what bike they would show such a person, and then subsequently I asked what tires the bikes had.

The responses were 100% either touring bikes or hybrids.  Tires were typically 32c. Some were 38c.  The shops ranged from Performance to two large Specialized dealers and a Trek Superstore.  100%, the responses had nothing to do with racy bikes.

So where are these bike snobs?  Where are these salespersons?  I suggest (1) it's a generalization that is perpetuated by a group which tends to have a certain set of opinions (gee, that sounds like religion or politics), and (2) when you go out in the world, you often encounter what you are pretty sure you are going to encounter.      

 

A nice enough guy otherwise looking over my upright at a water stop last weekend - after our in depth conversation was near over - said, "so you built yourself a cruiser"  

I made a point to pass him and leave him in the dust from my Italian Huffy.  

Why?  After a pleasant, in-depth conversation, you didn't like one word he chose, so You. Showed. Him.  Wasn't he giving you the opportunity to tell him why you liked your arrangement?

Made up for it yesterday on a greenway trail - ran across a fellow Grant Kool-Aid imbiber, who was riding a really nice upright built on a Miyata Triple Cross.and we shared a great stop

Well, that makes things easy.  No cross-pollination.  Nice, safe, comfortable, bicycle apartheid.

Conversations like this remind me of a time a couple years back when I was entering my own neighborhood in the evening.  I was on a fully racy carbon Look, and I'd just ridden the 45 miles/3500 feet of elevation, home from a long day of work at the office.  I'd also ridden to work that morning, leaving  the house at 5:15 a.m.  I had office clothes and shoes and a laptop in my Timbuktu bag, and I was moving quite slowly, because I was three blocks from home, and, as the Brits say, thoroughly knackered.  A 20-something fellow in street clothes on a Surly with an upright set-up caught me and passed me quite emphatically.  He said nothing, and looked straight ahead with a grin.  Yanno, when I pass other cyclists, especially if I am moving much faster than they are, I usually pass slowly and say hello, because I don't want to be perceived as being an a*****e, because I hate to startle people, and because I want other cyclists to feel happy and encouraged. 

So, did he go home and post online, "you should'a seen the stupid racer dude on the Look I smoked with my Surly today"?  I don't know -- maybe he didn't even notice me.  Regardless, every group of people has about the same percentage of jerks and the same percentage of regular folks, and the choice of which side to be on is always available.  :-) 

Peter 

[Ron Mc]

I'm very glad your friend had a good experience.  I could recommend bike shops here that likely sell exactly what he wants and others that can make any of us drool.  The people you can't seem to find are out there. I can give you a bad bike shop reference if you want. 

[Ron Mc]

and no, the guy didn't hear a word I said

[Ron Mc]

and yes, you can find jerks right here

[Garth]

   Laughing ..... Oh No !  .  . .  . there's "attitudes" here ?   Implying one "attitude" is somehow better or worse than another ?   How silly am I !    So I ask myself . .  .. when I detect an "attitude" , or a "jerk" , or see "snobs" on the road and in all walks of life  . . . . .  can I even recognize these "negatives" without being that "negative" myself ?  HaH !   I cannot !  So who would have the "attitude" , who' would be the "jerk" , but me ?  Laughing . . . .Say it ain't so datty-Oh ! 

[Eric Norris]

Well said. 

“I think he doesn’t like me, so I don’t like him” did a lot to get this world where it is today. 

Everybody has problems, and everybody thinks they’re right. Keep that in mind when you’re snobbing on someone who’s different from you.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
www.campyonly.com
campyonlyguy.blogspot.com

On Jul 30, 2015, at 11:47 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

   Laughing ..... Oh No !  .  . .  . there's "attitudes" here ?   Implying one "attitude" is somehow better or worse than another ?   How silly am I !    So I ask myself . .  .. when I detect an "attitude" , or a "jerk" , or see "snobs" on the road and in all walks of life  . . . . .  can I even recognize these "negatives" without being that "negative" myself ?  HaH !   I cannot !  So who would have the "attitude" , who' would be the "jerk" , but me ?  Laughing . . . .Say it ain't so datty-Oh ! 

[Patrick Moore]

The young pup still has to learn how to pass someone with credit. First, you blow past at at least a 5 mph differential; second, you control your panting so that you can keep your mouth closed and nose breath as you go by. Third, you must be in the hooks. Fourth, you casually lift your right forefinger in greeting with a very brief sideways glance -- angle of head turn no more than 30*. Fifth, in a very casual, conversational voice you say, "Nice bike." Lastly, and most important, you turn off no more than 400 yards ahead and disappear before you start puking up your guts.

Patrick Moore, going out right now to chase down some roadies on his Fargo in humid ABQ, NM (who finds local roadies pleasant, and finds this list pretty forgiving in fact).