Lightweight wheels question: J bend vs straight pull (Ritchey vs Hunt)

[Andrew Turner]

Hey there group,  

As far as pre-built, lightweight alloy wheelsets are concerned, I'm currently looking at 3: 
Pacenti brevet, Ritchey Zeta II classic, and Hunt but leaning towards the last 2. I've had experience with Ritchey's and really enjoyed them and their clever J-bend design, but Hunt's are better stocked. Does anyone have positive experience with Hunt wheels or do they lack longevity? 

I'd also be inclined to hear about your custom-built lightweight wheelset experiences. My goal weight is something in the 1600g range w/ skewers.  

Cheers, 

Andrew

[Piaw Na]

I would consider Ted Neugent's wheels: http://www.neugentcycling.com/Alloy-Wheels.html

The TwoX technology (16 drive side spokes, 8 non-drive side spokes so you can have equal tension of spokes on both sides, with washers on the non-drive side so you can tension them safely without the rim cracking) makes a lot of sense to me. I've ordered a set and will report back when I get some real riding experience. I build my own wheels and they're reliable but his approach makes sense and he has the scale to get the right parts drilled correctly in this case, and I can't build anything  as light.

[Andrew Turner]

Wow yes, these look fantastic on paper. I actually went ahead and pulled the trigger on a set of them so I suppose we'll both see how things go.

Thanks for the tip!!

[Nick Payne]

Here's pair I built myself - Newmen Fade 28h thru axle hubs, Light Bicycle AR28 (22mm internal width) rims, Sapim CX-Ray straight pull spokes. Weight 1380g. They've been perfectly reliable and have remained dead true in the 18 months I've been riding them. All-up cost of the parts was about $AU900 (~$US600).

Nick

[Will Boericke]

DT Swiss 240 to a 450g rim (Archetype, DT 450, Kinlin TL-21, etc) all day long.  I own 2 sets of these - bombproof and light.  All parts can be easily found (no proprietary badged hubs that you need bearings for 10 years down the road and cannot find).  J-bend spokes for the win.  ERD of the standard 22mm deep 450g rim is pretty constant (in the 597 range), so when it dies you can replace easily.  You could go fewer spokes to save some grams, but unlikely you'd regret 32.  

Alternatively, I have a set of Bitex hubs to older Pacenti SL23s that definitely make that weight cut and have been low-maintenance (well, THOSE Pacenti rims were okay; the ones on my cross bike were not).  But I like DTs freehub design better.

I would avoid a straight pull hubset because they're a little more finicky to work with down the road, but not a deal breaker.  I'm about to lace one up for my fatbike but that's because it was a deal.

Will

[lconley]

So if the spoke tension is equal on both sides, why would one side need washers? Makes no sense to me.

Laing

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

The drive side still has higher tension, and the way to get durable wheels is to get high tension without cracking the rim. The washers spread the load of the spoke nipple over a wider area and prevents the rim from cracking. With lowish spoke count wheels and dished wheels, you can easily exceed the rim's cracking threshold.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/ZbYSPOltKqI/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/f5654f86-76e0-4646-a346-7eb20511d895n%40googlegroups.com.

[Will Boericke]

Not a huge fan of the 16/8 idea for this reason.  Seems like a solution in search of a problem.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAPh0EZ6z9WOFSyR1babbE7oF9S9c3yjWybdQtBuwrEHsHYZjYg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Bill Lindsay]

I wonder when we'll see a new Gus Boots Willsen build with a 16/8 rear wheel?  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

If you feel that your wheels are already plenty strong and durable enough, sure. But what I've discovered over the years is that hubs have gotten their wR smaller and smaller, which reduces the bracing angle and increases the difference in tension between drive and non-drive side wheels. 

https://blog.piaw.net/2009/07/hubs.html

Back in 2009 when I did the above measurements, the Campy Record was the hub with the smallest wR at 15.2mm, which makes the wheel much weaker --- you pretty much needed an offset rim to have any kind of durability with those hubs. At this point, with the industry having moved to 11-12 speed wheels, wR has gotten worse. At this point, most hubs have less than 16mm wR. Of course you can also make the wL smaller by introducing disc brake rotor mounts on the non-drive side but that really doesn't solve the problem of weaker wheels.

If you're still living with 6 speed hubs with wR of 22mm or less, I'd agree with  you. But that's not the world I live in. So for me, anything that makes the wheel stronger is a feature, not a bug.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAFwrbzrLcNNOqxV9K%2BsH6D5FSfu2ZVf%2BdU1N%3Dmz7W3FBfGtCjg%40mail.gmail.com.

[lconley]

So if the drive side spokes have higher tension, why are the washers put on the non-drive side spokes? Again, makes no sense to me.

Laing

[Andrew Turner]

Washers are put on the drive-side rear spokes. 

Andrew

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

Andrew is correct. I made a mistake --- the washers are on the drive side, not the non-drive side.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/97eaf9af-0e93-4d23-9095-0e187de75e8en%40googlegroups.com.

[Andrew Turner]

John at Neugent Cycles strikes me as "the real deal" with the right connections and knowledge of modern wheel-building practices. Plus I could be wrong but I think he's building these wheels himself, regardless they're hand-built here stateside. (He let me mail some SimWorks' raw brass nipples to use for the wheel build to his home address). 

I'm still rocking 8 speed cassettes so yes, it's a bummer 11 speed systems screw with the structural integrity of the bicycle wheel. But frankly, I'm not looking for these to last me 20 years. I'm a very light rider, on a budget, ride 90% pavement, and I wanna lose 1.5lbs off my wheels if I can! 

Bill made a joke about seeing these wheels on a Gus and I can do ya one better: Neugent offers a carbon tubular wheelset at a sweltering 1000g that I think would pair nicely with a Gus if anyone's looking to get up Mt. Diablo with some pep! 

- Andrew, who jokes aside is a little curious about those tubular wheels... 

[Will Boericke]

Totally agree with John's wheels.  If I didn't like building wheels so much, I'd buy his for sure.

As far as spoke tension imbalance, I'll reserve judgement until I have a problem.  Currently, I have 8 bikes with 9+ speed freehubs.  I've never had a spoke tension related problem with any, including wheels that I have abused unduly (I really shouldn't ride singletrack with 24/28 wheels, but....).  In my sample size of 8, spoke tension is not an issue.

Will

[Piaw Na(藍俊彪)]

Spoke tension wasn't an issue until hubs with wR went down to ridiculous level. On one of my recent builds I discovered that the non-drive side was definitely too loose if I tensioned the drive side to Velocity's specs. So I made the decision to just tension the spokes to beyond velocity's specs for maximum tension and live with a shortened rim life. That was not a trade off I needed to do in the past. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/63e39d22-034f-4e5b-97de-6b48f26c201fn%40googlegroups.com.

[ascpgh]

What I've always wondered about straight pull vs. J-bend spokes is the risk/benefit comparison. 

The fixtures necessary to create on the straight pull hub that receive force concentrated by the head of the spoke need to be more robust than a conventional drilled hub flange. They have greater contact surface and tangential distribution of energy gained through the contact of the spokes' J-shape, particularly the outbound, against the hub flange material. The straight pull hub must transfer all energy directly by only the head of the spoke. 

Seems that to make the spoke head fixtures on a straight pull hub body you must ensure enough material for strength and avoid stress risers by design that a weight comparison isn't the highlight. Weight savings at the hub are much less impressive to me than those outward on the circumference. 

For load bearing parts the importance of experience weighs very well against garage innovations. Shimano or Campagnolo know some things about hubs institutionally and would not focus on any single aspect of a hub design unless able to address the rest of their corporate secret soup. Having lived through the CNC '90s in a bike shop I've seen lot of boutique maker parts after the fail and the wrath of owners unhappy their money didn't buy them out of being concerned for simple failure such as axle of spindle breaks. Whether from less than professional machine work, material selection or tolerances not as tight as they should have been, I saw those things come back in parts.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Monday, January 16, 2023 at 6:44:42 PM UTC-5 Nick Payne wrote: