Tech question.

[Hugh Smitham]

I have a right dura ace bar con shifter that misses some of the index positions. It works fine in friction but I like my index. Does anyone know whether the internals are repairable? 

~Hugh

[Bill Lindsay]

The internals of a shimano indexed barcon shifter are not repairable.  

1.  What model exactly is your shifter?

2.  exactly which index positions are missed?

The answers to 1 and 2 might imply a setup mistake.  Very often people rotate the shifter base by 90 degrees by mistake because the shifter has been on and off its based several times in its life and people just lose track.  The base piece fits onto a square protuberance on the shift pod.  The shifter itself has a round recess with a single rectangular keyway.  The corresponding round feature and keyway on the shifter base must be oriented correctly.  The correct orientation has the keyway pointing DOWN towards the ground, tilted slightly towards the REAR of the bicycle.  

If you are missing random middle shifts, and are not missing one end or the other, then this setup error is not your problem and your shifter is just shot.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Hugh Smitham]

Very often people rotate the shifter base by 90 degrees by mistake because the shifter has been on and off its based several times in its life and people just lose track.

I tried that Bill.

Sounds like the shifter is shot.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/Wz8uc5aFq0s/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[dougP]

Is it possible to buy just the indexing washer?

dougP

On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 10:43:05 AM UTC-7, Hugh Smitham wrote:

Very often people rotate the shifter base by 90 degrees by mistake because the shifter has been on and off its based several times in its life and people just lose track.

I tried that Bill.

Sounds like the shifter is shot.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/

On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 10:40 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

The internals of a shimano indexed barcon shifter are not repairable.  

1.  What model exactly is your shifter?

2.  exactly which index positions are missed?

The answers to 1 and 2 might imply a setup mistake.  Very often people rotate the shifter base by 90 degrees by mistake because the shifter has been on and off its based several times in its life and people just lose track.  The base piece fits onto a square protuberance on the shift pod.  The shifter itself has a round recess with a single rectangular keyway.  The corresponding round feature and keyway on the shifter base must be oriented correctly.  The correct orientation has the keyway pointing DOWN towards the ground, tilted slightly towards the REAR of the bicycle.  

If you are missing random middle shifts, and are not missing one end or the other, then this setup error is not your problem and your shifter is just shot.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 10:30:49 AM UTC-7, Hugh Smitham wrote:

I have a right dura ace bar con shifter that misses some of the index positions. It works fine in friction but I like my index. Does anyone know whether the internals are repairable? 

~Hugh

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/Wz8uc5aFq0s/unsubscribe.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

[Hugh Smitham]

I wouldn't even know where to start looking for that? Nor what that is. I think the issue is the small internal ratchets.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

[Hugh Smitham]

And to my understanding not replaceable.

[dougP]

Now you've got my curiousity.  I'm thinking the wear part is the silver plastic goodie that Bill mentions having to be in correct alignment.  It's a loose part so it is replaceable.  Whether they're readily available is another question.  On my 8 speed, I just switched to friction a couple of years ago but admit having index would be nice. 

dougP

[Hugh Smitham]

Doug,

I think that part rotates 90 degrees and changes the pull ratio.  The part I think that's broken is the plastic ratcheted pieces. When I get home I'll pull it apart and investigate.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

[dougP]

This may be it:

https://www.modernbike.com/shimano-sl-bs78-rear-shift-lever-boss-cover

But this doesn't say how many speeds.  It does say what levers it fits.  When Shimano first brought out SIS, those little tabs inside these washers used to break off.  Bike shops had bags of them & just handed out replacements.  I haven't taken mine apart to see what's failed.  It could be some of the tabs are worn to the point of not accurately indexing.  Now I've got a project for tomorrow. 

dougP

[Hugh Smitham]

So yours is broken too?

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

[dougP]

A couple of years ago the indexing got imprecise on a couple of the most commonly used positions so I switched it to friction.  I'm guessing some of those little tabs are worn.  Used to be when you disassembled the old SIS shifters little bits of broken plastic would fall out.  I just never took my current ones apart to see what the problem was. 

dougP

[Hugh Smitham]

Well it sure would be nice if they were repairable.  Bill L. believes they're done.

I know this much the washer you showed is on both sides. Meaning the left shifter non indexing as well as the right rear deaurailler shifter. On the left you can rotate it 90 degrees to change the pull ratio from a double to a triple. I fiddled with that ring on the right and sure enough the shifter had more range of motion. But when I counted the clicks (there should be 9) the middle was smooth, no clicks, which led me to believe the finer more intricate mechanism was stripped. So I decided to ask whether it was repairable?

On the bright side, even when the indexed part fails like you did by just switching to friction you can still get by. With my old MTB rapid fire shifters when they went they went.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

[Tim Gavin]

That plastic ring says it's for BS78 shifters, which are 10 speed indexed (no friction option).  FYI

Tim

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

[Jeremy Till]

First off, the washer that goes between the pod and the shift lever doesn't actually do the indexing, so replacing it probably wouldn't have any effect.  What the washer does is firmly hold one side of the mechanism so it doesn't move when you move the lever.  The indexing is integral to the shift lever mechanism; I've never pulled one apart to the point of being able to see or replace the indexing bits, and I doubt replacements are available.  

However, if the issue is that you get a few clicks and then smooth action, I wonder if the internals might not be worn but some how out of alignment, such that you are actually only clicking through the lowest few gears of the shifter and then moving past the indexing.  My thought is that worn internals would not result in smooth action, but rather crunchy and/or imprecise clicks.  

Here's what I would try: remove the washer and shifter mechanism from the pod.  Hold them together in your hands, or rig up some kind of bolt and spacer to hold them together, and try to rotate the shift lever relative to the washer and see if you can't rotate to a place where you get the proper number of clicks.  If you are able to find the orientation of washer and mechanism where you get the proper number of clicks, move the shift lever to just past the most clockwise click.  If I'm right, you should be able to then re-install the shifter mechanism and washer (in the proper orientation, with the keyway down) and have the shifter be able to click through it's range on the pod then.  

One gotcha to remember: the proper number of clicks in an index shifter is one less than the number of speeds, since the initial position is also a speed.  So 10 speed shifters have 9 clicks, 9 have 8, 8 have 7, etc.  

[Bill Lindsay]

Jeremy is right.

I will add that the chrome washer piece http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/sh21space.htm is not a wear item, doesn't have anything directly to do with indexing, and is not plastic.  

Hugh indicated to me offline that he's already ordered new shifters.  Mail the old right side shifter to me and I'll tell you whether it's shot.  If it's shot, it is not repairable.  Or, maybe I will re-ask the two very direct and explicit questions that I asked in my first response on this thread:

1.  What model exactly is your shifter?

2.  exactly which index positions are missed?

[Hugh Smitham]

Bill,

1. RD 7700 9 & 8 speed.

2. Middle of the range skips two clicks.

Have not yet bought a new set.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/Wz8uc5aFq0s/unsubscribe.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

[Bill Lindsay]

On Thursday, October 13, 2016 at 10:35:55 AM UTC-7, Hugh Smitham wrote:

Bill,

1. RD 7700 9 & 8 speed.

RD7700 is a rear derailer model, not a shiftlever model.  Maybe you have the BS77 shifters?

When you say 9 & 8 speed, what do you mean.  Are you referring to the fact that the BS77 shifters are intended to be compatible with an RD7700 rear derailer in a nine speed application, or an RD7400 rear derailer in an eight speed application?  Or are you referring to the RD7700 derailer being applicable for both 8sp and 9sp setups?  Or are you saying you do cassette swaps or wheel swaps and use both 8sp and 9sp cassettes on this bike with the same rear der and shifters?

 

2. Middle of the range skips two clicks.

OK so you are in the smallest cog.  Lets call that position 9.  You click from position 9 to 8, and the derailer shifts.  You click from 8 to 7, and it works.  You click from 7 to 6 and it works.  Now you are in the middle, and 6 to 5 is not going to work.  What doesn't work?  You said 'skips two clicks'.  You mean that the shifter has no clicks, and acts like a friction shifter from 6 to 5, and continues to move like a friction shifter from 5 to 4.  Those two clicks are 'skipped' in the shifter.  Then from 4 to 3, the clicks reappear, and click properly all the way to position 1.  Is this what you are describing?  

Or do you mean the shifter does click from 6 to 5 and from 5 to 4, but those two gears are skipping when you pedal in those gears?  Is that what you are describing?  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

Have not yet bought a new set.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jeremy is right.

I will add that the chrome washer piece http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/sh21space.htm is not a wear item, doesn't have anything directly to do with indexing, and is not plastic.  

Hugh indicated to me offline that he's already ordered new shifters.  Mail the old right side shifter to me and I'll tell you whether it's shot.  If it's shot, it is not repairable.  Or, maybe I will re-ask the two very direct and explicit questions that I asked in my first response on this thread:

1.  What model exactly is your shifter?

2.  exactly which index positions are missed?

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/Wz8uc5aFq0s/unsubscribe.

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

[Hugh Smitham]

Sorry. Yes looked at the wrong number. It's compatible with 

RD-7700 & RD-7400 derailleurs.

Model SL BS77.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

[EricK]

Hugh,

Did the problem (missing indexed shifts) suddenly happen?  Or was it gradual??

If it was sudden, was it following a disassembly of the shifter?  Or perhaps you removed/replaced the cable??

[Bill Lindsay]

OK, well the offer still stands.  If you want to mail the shifter to me to confirm it's busted, I'm willing to look at it for you.  If you are convinced it's broken and want to throw it out, no problems.  If there really are clicks in the middle that have just vanished, I'm sure it's busted.  I've never seen that particular failure mode, so I'd be grateful if you'd let me inspect it.  If that's really what it's doing, I'm 100% certain that it cannot be repaired, but I'd like to see it for myself.   

[Hugh Smitham]

Bill,

My curious quotient has peaked. Tomorrow on my day off I'm going to disassemble the shifter. I'll take pics and share. 

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/

To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

[Philip Williamson]

Super interesting.
I've had to "wind a bar end lever back up" when it ran out of range due to disassembly and reassembly, but never encountered friction in the middle range.
I would need to change into indexed shifting on both bikes, to check, though.

Philip
www.biketinker.com
www.philipwilliamson.com

[dougP]

Funny that those are available many places for less than $3. 

Took my 8 speed lever apart far enough to see that the corresponding ring is fine.  The mating bits appear to be pressed together with the lever itself in the assembly.  My curiousity did not extend to prying this apart.  No loose bits of plastic or metal dropped out.  Everything was clean & not gunked up.  I just reassembled as-is & everything functions properly (not always a given when I start playing around).  I'll take it out tomorrow to see how the indexing does under load. 

dougP

Tim

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Michael Cinibulk]

I had the same thing happen to my 9 spd bar end shifter after about 14k miles. In the middle of the range where it spent the most time the indexing got very sloppy to the point where it didn't click positively in 2 or 3 gears. I used it in friction mode after that for a short while but eventually replaced them with a new set since the replies I got from the group were that they were not repairable.

Mike C
Bellbrook OH

[masmojo]

I had bar-cons on my Cross Check, it was leaned against the car and the wind blew it over. The rear shifter never worked after that.