upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things more steady?

[eddietheflay]

I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front like you find on all drop bar bikes?

[Joe Bernard]

Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots of upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference in steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call tiller effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos without needing the longest possible stem. 

*I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. 

Joe Bernard 

[Joe Bernard]

Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. 

[Richard Rose]

Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either my Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has been a long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with relatively straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little bit. But other factors might be in play, geometry in particular.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. 

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[eddietheflay]

So Joe I understand the concept of tiller as in the olden days a did a couple of years on bents. My more specific question is if a bike has a shorter top tube which requires more stem length to "reach" proper reach, then does some of the tiller affect get reduced?

[Garth]

Well Eddie there are cans of worms and then there are #10 can of worms , and this is a whole case of them !

First off, the amount of sensitivity in steering inputs, that feeling, largely depends on the design of the frame.  I've had two bike set up as identical as they can be with Albatross bars and 130mm stems, with similar frame reach(relatively long) and stack and all, but very different design otherwise,. My custom Franklin road bike has no tiller effect, I could stand and do dances but it's decidedly European road racing feel remained, albeit the higher bar height was disconcerting at times. Too high of gravity, despite my hands being near the curves all the time as I used bar end brake levers. It helps for sure in handling, but it was just the wrong application for the frame. That bike excels long and low with drop bars.

The Bombadil on the other hand has a notable tiller effect which I'm fond of at all. I'm in the process of changing it to much lower drop bars for comfort reasons. That may lesson the tiller effect some, but it will still be there. Going long and low in drops is to me the most comfortable and best way for handing a bike. While I've never ridden a Riv road only bike, I highly doubt any Riv road bike would handle the way I prefer, the design philosophy of Grant doesn't vary that much.

The bottom line is no bar is going to change a frame into something it's isn't. It's like a guitar, you can tune it in, or tune it out, but it's always the same guitar.

This just scratches the surface anyways, as the placement of the rider in the frame in relation to the BB also alters one's perceptions of steering and everything else. Everything effects everything, in the story of cause and effect. Without the story... it doesn't. Yippie !

[Joe Bernard]

Garth opens up another can of worms with perception. Am I aware that there's a smidge of tiller effect on my custom and significantly more on Cheap Old Hybrid? Yes. Do I actually perceive this on rides? Nope. I like the bars and the bikes go and turn and stop and I haven't a care in the world, I ride them and it's fun. 

[Garth]

More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride them. I found just the opposite myself..... it's like wanting to get from Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle. .... "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which one enjoys. 

I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something more than they ever are. .... a means to "the ride" ! That quest for "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't absent in any way. What a paradox ..... things that seem to appear missing aren't missing at all..... they're revealing in the Light the actuality of What IS :)   How cool that is ...... Ride on. 

[eddietheflay]

I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my head is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. I guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach to the hoods on drop bars comfortable.

[Doug H.]

Eddie,

When I first rode a Clem with Bosco bars it was so different from drop bars below the saddle level that steering seemed odd. It took a few rides to settle in to the upright position and having the bars above the saddle and coming back toward me, if that makes sense. Like you though I was having neck pain. I see many folks my age and older still riding drop bars and good on them. But, we are all different and thank goodness there are options! I guess my advice would be to give upright bars 100 miles or so to see if the steering becomes more palatable for you. 

Doug

[eddietheflay]

I have never tried really high-mounted drop bars like these ones: http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/05/drop-bar-diaries.html

And for me that would be mostly about the aesthetics. Swept back bars look cooler and less weird that high-mounted drop bars. I wonder if the steering would "seem" significantly less twitchy and if for me it would require a smaller frame with shorter top tube?

Here are photos of my current twitchy setup: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nn7Pzb61yBhXaKCE6

[eddietheflay]

Hello Doug, I have been riding Billie bars on three bikes for nearly two years. I can do just fine but still notice I am less steady when my hands are on the grips while descending at speed. Could be that I am so upright that my center of gravity compared to drop bars is making things a less steady.

[Doug H.]

I do wonder if the long wheelbase makes my Clem more stable in general. I hope you find the right setup for your bike.

Doug

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[eddietheflay]

Doug, my guess is that headtube angle and trail on the Clem probably adds to steadier steering. Riv does not seem to publish trail numbers but as I understand it trail is key to steering characteristics.

[Richard Rose]

Precisely.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 10, 2023, at 9:43 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Garth opens up another can of worms with perception. Am I aware that there's a smidge of tiller effect on my custom and significantly more on Cheap Old Hybrid? Yes. Do I actually perceive this on rides? Nope. I like the bars and the bikes go and turn and stop and I haven't a care in the world, I ride them and it's fun. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/eea974cd-bef0-489e-a560-6bd7dc03e715n%40googlegroups.com.

[Steve]

Eddie, your initial post asking " how does shorter or longer stem effect steering?" has generated a a lot of interesting discussion about steering dynamics - but it seems that what you really want to get at is which size Roadini will work best for you with upright bars. 

You might start by taking a look at the geo for the 54 & 57 Roadinis and comparing  them both to the diagram of your current bike. (try the link to Bike Insights I've pasted below).   My suggestion is that the larger frame will better lend itself to a more upright riding position by virtue of its taller stack and shorter effective TT.   Both of the Roadinis have a longer wheelbase, slacker ST & HT angles, and more neutral trail than your current ride. I think you would discover that either of them  provide a more stable feeling front end than your current bike (which looks like it has maybe been pushed a bit beyond its design intent).  

Ultimately I agree with the suggestion that if you are looking for a bike that handles well with an upright position that you should consider a frame set intentionally designed for that style of riding.. 

https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=5bb29e327581960016665a31,5bb29e327581960016665a32,

[Ted Durant]

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 4:59:17 PM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:

 My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things more steady?

My experience with a Quickbeam was similar - upright bars (Albatross) and using the ends of the bars made for a very quick, "twitchy", light steering feel. I attribute this to two factors. The first, and IMO more important one, is that my position on the bike was far more upright, resulting in much less weight on the front wheel. The second is that my hands were much farther from the steering axis.

So, if a shorter top-tube and longer stem results in a) your position being the same, and b) moving your hands closer to the steering axis (which it would if on your current setup your hands at the ends of the bar are behind the steering axis) then I'd expect a slight reduction in twitchiness. I'd expect it to be maybe imperceptible, though, because the change in hand distance to steering axis will be tiny, as the bigger factor in that regard is the handlebar width.

Hand distance from the steering axis does two things. First, it gives more leverage, so less effort is required to put an equal amount of force into turning the fork or (what's really important) changing the angle of the bike relative to the ground (or resisting other forces trying to change the angle to the ground). Second, the flip side of that, for a given amount of fork rotation (or body/bike/ground angle changes) your hands have to move a greater distance. It's worth noting, only because some things I've seen written seem confused on this issue, that if you change the stem length and also change the bars, such that your hands wind up in the same place relative to the steering axis, you will have zero change on steering feel. You can put a 1000mm stem on there and super long backward reaching bars and your leverage won't have changed. The amount of flex in that system will likely have changed though, and that could impact "feel" in other ways.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee WI USA

[J J]

Eddie, for what it's worth: when I bought an old Atlantis (that has the much more compact size and geometry than current Atlantis models) it had a Noodle drop bar on a medium length stem — a pretty standard Rivendell build. I couldn't ride it for more than a few miles without experiencing terrible pain in my wrists, neck, and shoulders due to an old injury. Importantly, it felt extremely twitchy to me, maybe because I couldn't ever get quite comfortable enough.  

I replaced the Noodle with an Albatross using the same stem, and it was a world of difference. The twitchiness was gone — maybe because I was no longer in pain and uncomfortable? The bike suddenly felt super stable. I even noticed that the toe clip overlap that annoyed me so much when riding the Noodle was also gone, a nonissue, with the Albatross.

The takeaway for me is that it's one thing to discuss how stem length and type of handlebar affect steering and handling hypothetically, in the abstract. But it is quite another to assess how stem length and type of handlebar affect steering and feel for a particular body actually riding a particular bike. There are so many idiosyncrasies and variables in each of us that what might be common sense and obvious for one body just doesn't work for another, no matter what the putative rules and accepted wisdom about it might be. Each of us has our own goals and purpose for riding, which also play into feel. 

Jim

[Bill Lindsay]

In your original post you refer to your "current bike" with Billie bars.  Is that the Curtlo that you are selling over on the iBob list?   If so, for the benefit of the commenters, you said that Curtlo was designed to emulate a Rambouillet.  

I've got two comments:  First, I'm not crazy about your comment "I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old".  There are plenty of cyclists into their 80s who have the flexibility and general fitness to ride drop bars, and there are plenty of cyclists of every conceivable age that need their bars quite high in order to enjoy cycling.  If you in fact are old, and in fact need your bars high, the causal relationship between the two is not universal.  

Second, I think you'd experience a huge improvement with just a longer wheelbase.  Just going from a Rambouillet to a Leo Roadini would probably be a big improvement.  An A. Homer Hilsen may be even better.  The Hilsen is a road-oriented bike designed for uprights.  Try to arrange a test ride of a 54.5cm Hilsen.  It may be just your thing.  The go live on Thursday!

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

I have no dog scheduled for participation in this most benign of discussions, but I do have a question. I as Garth like a riding position that bends my hips sufficiently -- so, sufficient saddle setback and sufficient bar drop and distance -- and I as he expect that a Roadini designed for a drop bar will handle awkwardly with a Billy Bar. I'm speculating but that would certainly be true with my blue Ram or even first edition Sam.

But the Clem and similar designs: I have a practical interest as I have seriously considered buying a Clem. So my question is, to Garth and others: doesn't the very design of the Clem frame "optimize" it for a sweepback bar and an upright riding position?

So, isn't the Clem designed for long sweepback bars by having a very long tt so that despite your Billy Bar you still have to learn forward enough for decent hip angle?

There is a discussion currently over on iBob about sta and whether steep stas allow more power, and one thread direction has been rod brake roadsters and omafietses which of course have very slack stas. It has been asserted that these very slack stas are good because they allow you to sit bolt upright while getting enough hip angle to put needed torque on the pedals -- and God knows that RBRs are overgeared by modern standards: 68' or 72 and that's before you add a SA AW hub with 133% overdrive!

I realize that all of this has nothing to do with "tiller effect."

On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 6:17 AM Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride them. I found just the opposite myself..... it's like wanting to get from Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle. .... "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which one enjoys. 

I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something more than they ever are. .... a means to "the ride" ! That quest for "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't absent in any way. What a paradox ..... things that seem to appear missing aren't missing at all..... they're revealing in the Light the actuality of What IS :)   How cool that is ...... Ride on. 

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[Joe Bernard]

Patrick: 

You are correct, the very long effective toptubes of Clems makes it possible to run a sweepback bar without sitting bolt upright. Leah (Bicycle Belle Ding Ding) might want to chime in here, she has much experience with this on Clems and Platys. 

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Joe. This information keeps the Clem on my "Someday" list.

[Garth]

Patrick, from my experience with the Bombadil, which has a rather long TT for it's given size, (the 60cm size has a 63cm TT), and riding it with an Albatross bar and 130mm stem, about 2 inches above the saddle...... yes I could lean forward going up steep hills, but the high bars limit just how low you can go. Compared to my now drop bar Franklin, which formerly had high mounted Albatross bars like the Bomba, the difference is substantial as I have absolutely free hip rotation now with the bars 2-1/2 to 3 inches below the tip of the saddle. Tat's a big part in being able to lower yourself comfortably, efficiently and powerfully, having low bars. I feel like a kid in candy store riding my Franklin like this. I want no part in ever riding with such high bars again. I'm in the process of changing the Bomba to a drop bar as low as possible given the frame limits. Plus DT shifters. There are however +/-25d and even 35d stems these days though. so I should be able to get it at least 3 inches below the saddle.

While the TT on the Clem and Hilly bikes appears long on paper, the actual practical reach(saddle tip to hands), once you move your saddle far enough forward, plus the very shallow HTA which comes towards you dramatically as you raise the bars, it really isn't all that long. I suspect the practical reach would be no longer than my Bomba as I described above.

Do you remember the post about Rivsters wanting a more setback post ? They were mostly looking for extra reach on their Clems or Platy frames. That it was the wrong direction to go notwithstanding, I found it telling how anyone on such a long bike would want more reach on such a long frame and wayback bars.

As for STA, my Franklin is 72.5, the Bomba 72. I used to think the shallower was what I needed, but now I realize I had that reversed, I don't want anything less than 72.5(my Franklin), and this is with 150mm cranks pedalling near midfoot. My newly arrived VO Rando frame has a 73.5 STA, for which I'll use the setback Nitto S84 post with the saddle mounted well forward(rearward on the rails). The post is a leftover, so I may as well use it for something. Even on the Franklin, with a Cobb San Remo saddle, a "classic" saddle not unlike a Flite or Ritchey Skyline, I currently have it mounted about halfway back on the rails(far forward) with a Ritchey Classic seatpost. When I first got the saddle I had mounted on the S84, so now on the Ritchey post it's about 40mm or more forward of where I started ! The lower I've been going in bar drop, the more forward I have been moving the saddle. The wonderful thing is I've never been more comfortable riding a bike ! I have a -17d stem on order so I can go lower by 20mm. It feels totally natural. In terms of "power" in relation to STA, I'd say I don't have more than before, I'm just using it most efficiently/effectively now. Able to push really hard and recover quickly, things like that. I've also noticed how day to day I don't have the sore legs I formerly did with the seat way back and sitting more up. I don't have sore anything on the bike anymore. Having the hips able to rotate totally freely is something I don't ever recall experiencing. The combo of low drop bars, a more forward saddle position and 150mm cranks is awesome !

Obviously I have no idea how you'd like a Clem or Hilly bike, it's just something to experience for yourself !

I hope I covered everything for you Patrick .... :) !

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 1:19:04 PM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:

I have no dog scheduled for participation in this most benign of discussions, but I do have a question. I as Garth like a riding position that bends my hips sufficiently -- so, sufficient saddle setback and sufficient bar drop and distance -- and I as he expect that a Roadini designed for a drop bar will handle awkwardly with a Billy Bar. I'm speculating but that would certainly be true with my blue Ram or even first edition Sam.

But the Clem and similar designs: I have a practical interest as I have seriously considered buying a Clem. So my question is, to Garth and others: doesn't the very design of the Clem frame "optimize" it for a sweepback bar and an upright riding position?

So, isn't the Clem designed for long sweepback bars by having a very long tt so that despite your Billy Bar you still have to learn forward enough for decent hip angle?

There is a discussion currently over on iBob about sta and whether steep stas allow more power, and one thread direction has been rod brake roadsters and omafietses which of course have very slack stas. It has been asserted that these very slack stas are good because they allow you to sit bolt upright while getting enough hip angle to put needed torque on the pedals -- and God knows that RBRs are overgeared by modern standards: 68' or 72 and that's before you add a SA AW hub with 133% overdrive!

I realize that all of this has nothing to do with "tiller effect."

[Steve]

Apologies to Eddie (as the OP)  for veering off on a tangent here, but I find Patrick & Garth's discussion of STA interesting -- and I think it makes an important point regarding what sort of bike works well with swept back bars and a more upright riding position. Now that it's been pointed out, I realize that a slack STA is an attribute of pretty much every classic bike intended for a heads up riding that I've seen. I'm thinking of the Dutch and Danish city bikes I've ridden in the past - their seating position is nearly bolt upright with a super slack STA, and they give a graceful and surprisingly brisk ride.      

So...back to Eddie's original post; if you're seeking a bike that will handle well with sweptback, upright bars then it makes good sense to look for one with geometry that is optimized for that kind of riding position. It's not just the length of the stem that determines how a bike handles with any given handlebar or riding position, it's the sum of all the parts. 

Steve

[Garth]

In regards to being "old" and needing high bars as an accommodation, well that isn't true at all. I'm more flexible now on the bike than I ever was in my teens to 20's. All that's needed to express one's inherent abilities, it to express it. Yes that's sounds funny, and it is, because it's that simple. 

Do I need permission or an education to sing, to speak, to breathe even ? Because I'm of a certain age, does that there are certain limits within the certain age frame ? Says who, and where, and by what authority ? That'd be no-one, no-where, and none. That's just how wacky those thoughts are. I say "use it, you can't lose it !" It's obvious to me that the "frames of limitation" are their own limits. They don't pertain to anyone, the limit is it's own limit, limited of itself, to itself. 

Just a few months ago I was riding my Franklin custom road bike with an Albatross bars 2-3 inches above the saddle. Now I'm riding it with drop bars 3 inches below and so much happier, and it handles so darn well in every way. I ride mostly in the drops too, having the hips rotated, the back naturally flattens, the shoulders relax.... it's the most natural thing to do.  I ride some fairly rough stretches of road, and what used to be fairly jarring with the high and back bars, is now more like a float. Having ones weight evenly distributed over the bike is a great thing, and you don't need a mega-wheelbase for that to be, you can do with any frame. Dare I say my opinion on the mega-wheelbase and high bar Riv's is that it's not necessary and is more likely the very cause it claims to cure.  In my experience I had more pains, pains I never felt before, from riding with high swept back bars and having the saddle way back. Now all that is gone, and I'm loving riding more than ever ! 

So all I can say about what bike to get and how to set it up, I say get what really moves you, what inspires you, what you love riding freely and joyously !  I know you already know. There's nothing else to live for :)
 

[Richard Rose]

Garth, of course nothing you say here is wrong, it’s simply not the same for everyone. And I know you know that. I am a 68 year old lifetime cyclist. I’ve been through many drop bar bikes and though my last one (Custom Richard Sachs) was easily the best, I was never truly comfortable. I mean, I routinely rode it 100 miles relatively fast but something always hurt. Most notably it was my hands. These days I am riding more miles, more often than at any time in my life - in total comfort - on my Clem / Gus bikes. The upright, swept back, long stay life is what works for me. It’s not about limitations but rather preferences & attitude. It’s been a revelation for me & believe me when I say it has challenged every single thing I thought I knew about cycling.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 13, 2023, at 6:39 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

In regards to being "old" and needing high bars as an accommodation, well that isn't true at all. I'm more flexible now on the bike than I ever was in my teens to 20's. All that's needed to express one's inherent abilities, it to express it. Yes that's sounds funny, and it is, because it's that simple. 

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[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 8:41:29 AM UTC-4 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:

Garth, of course nothing you say here is wrong, it’s simply not the same for everyone. And I know you know that. I am a 68 year old lifetime cyclist. I’ve been through many drop bar bikes and though my last one (Custom Richard Sachs) was easily the best, I was never truly comfortable.

This is a timely topic for me. I'm about to turn 61 and, until last spring, I thought I had dialed in my perfect bike fit. Doing a fair amount of yoga starting in my 40's really helped my flexibility and core strength, so I ride with a pretty low, flat back. I use pretty deep drop bars (mostly Noodles), set the tops a bit below the saddle, and spend a lot of time on the drops. My personal cubit is how I check seat-bar distance, and the backs of my handlebar tops at the stem have always been 2-4cm ahead of my fingertips.

When I was spec'ing out my new Sam, I spent a long time on stem length and finally decided to go shorter. This is also relevant to the previous thread, as the Sam has a much slacker seat tube angle than my other bikes, making it a bit more challenging to translate fit from the other bikes.  On the Sam, the bars are just a few mm ahead of my fingers. I was worried this would be too cramped, so it was a bit of a revelation when I found it was comfortable and still allowed plenty of breathing space. Thinking about it, I realized that it was logical that my seat-bar distance would need to shrink a bit. I have pretty severe osteoporosis and a couple of compressed vertebrae, so my torso length is shorter than it was 5 years ago. 

So, yeah, everybody ages differently, but we all age and need to be aware of how our bodies are changing and how that impacts position and fit on the bike. 

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[J S]

Ted, very timely. I took my Saluki out the other day and yesterday my back was screaming. I just turned 72 and my back has been an issue since my 40’s, why I started riding Rivendells.  Today I will ride my Hillborne. To make it fair I took the 48mm tires off and put 42’s on like on the Saluki. Maybe the Hillborne geometry is better. Both bikes are set up the same, 2 differences are tires and cranks. I have a Sugino on the Hillborne and a TA Zephyr on the Saluki. I got the Saluki last year to replace a Bleriot which rode great and transferred all of the components. I thought the geometry was similiar if not the same as the Saluki. By tomorrow morning I will know how my back did. 

[greenteadrinkers]

Regarding upright bars and shorter stems, wondering if an 8cm Dirtdrop vs. an 8cm 4-bolt Jim Stem would position a Choco bar in basically the same reach.

Thanks,

Scott