Discs versus calipers

[Patrick Moore]

I'm putting this in a new thread, because I have some questions. Note: I'm not disagreeing, I'm asking because I want to know more. 

Clayton said, in the Rivs On Block thread:

- More margin betw. rim and brake to adjust for rub. Disc brakes usually have much tighter clearances and make it a much more fiddly affair to get rid of rub (applies mostly to hydros)

- Typically lighter weight

[...]

- Pads tend to last longer

#1: I agree that this is very true for mechanical discs, but for hydraulics? I thought that pads for hydraulics allowed more gap than those for mechanicals, at least once-sided-pull mechanicals. For me, this isn't merely academic; it may influence my choice of mechanicals over hydraulics one day.

#2: Yes, calipers are lighter, but then disc-specific rims can be much lighter than rim brake rims, at least in the wider sizes.

#3: I've read that this is true; I've also read the opposite (recently, in a review of some disc setup -- Bike Radar? Which one is true?

I do know that my Kool Stop salmons seem to last years if not decades.

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[Ed Carolipio]

As with others, I definitely like discs for muddy riding or lots of stream crossings, mostly for avoiding the sandpaper effect with wet, dirty pads and the no-brainer braking consistency after the rim gets doused.

Also, as with others, I've found setup to be finicky, pad wear to be meh, and it's hard to tell how low the pads are. There's also disc brake rub - just noise, not real friction - which provides a pinging soundtrack to your ride and tends to come and go, and come and go, and come and go...

Hydraulics are butter, but need to be bled periodically, and, please, just replace the innards if you think there's a leak somewhere. I maintain my own bikes and am now in the "ride more, wrench less" stage of my life so I've moved away from the MTB braking heaven that is hydraulics.

I found discs to be overkill in my road applications. I've heard on a fully loaded touring rig it could make a difference, but I don't have first hand knowledge.

I like plus sized tires for singletrack while some folks like fatties (>3.5" wide), and those tires may not work with a rim brake. I would not be surprised, though, if some crazy fool is using a set of 26 x 4.8 Surly Lou's with cantis and extra long straddle wires. Bike geeks are awesome.

Finally, since this is a Riv board, a disc option Riv custom 650b with Hunq-y lugs that can take a 3" (or even 2.5") wide tire would put my bank account and marriage in serious jeopardy.

--Ed C.

[Garth]

I'll just add this in addition to something you mentioned Patrick in the "Riv sale reason" topic, and that is basically never say never. Many of us would have scoffed at the idea of tig'd frames years ago, that's for sure. Disc brakes have not been around very long compared to other brakes, so who knows what future designs or implementations may make disc brakes more appealing compared to today. Maybe another brake altogether, who knows.

[RJM]

I'm a disc brake lover for mountain biking, but not a mechanical disk brake lover. Every mechanical one I've had has performed subpar and given me setup issues...especially compared to hydraulic discs.

It has been my experience that with a good set of hydraulic brakes (one that squeezes both pads onto the rotor and not the kind that have only one piston that squeeze one pad and then the rotor onto the other pad. I hope that makes sense) and a quality initial setup, brake rub isn't an issue unless you bend a rotor. At that point, the fix is using care to bend the rotor back without adjusting the caliper.

[Jeremy Till]

Pad/rotor clearance isn't really different between hydraulic and mechanical disc brakes in my experience.  Just like with rim brakes, it depends more on the brake itself and the leverage ratio.  SRAM/Avid brakes, for instance, tend to be fairly high leverage for a light lever feel and "modulation," and in my experience their pads run pretty close to the rotor, just like high leverage rim brakes (V's, for instance) need to run fairly close to the rim.  At the opposite end of the spectrum would be some of the Tektro hydraulics which are becoming commonplace on hybrids and city bikes, and tend to have less leverage and a firmer lever feel, something more like a high-profile cantilever (you have to squeeze harder to get the same stopping power).  Like the cantilevers, their pads have plenty of clearance, which also makes setup easier, especially with looser caliper mount alignment  and rotor trueness tolerances.  

Basically, no matter the type of brake, their ain't no free lunch: high leverage and more stopping power per unit of lever squeezing force comes at the cost of tighter clearances.  The only thing that changes are the location and scale of those tolerances.  

It's been my experience that I've blown through pads faster on a disc brake bike but that's not really fair since the disc brake bike was being used for the most braking-intensive type of riding (mountain biking on steep terrain).  I've never had a disc brake bike that replicated a rim brake bike in terms of use patterns so I can't really compare.

On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 8:09:11 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

(I don't know you name): I've used enough of Avid's different BB7 models to know that even one-sided (only one pad is moved) mechanical discs can be set up to provide outstanding and consistent power with little problem from rotor rub (I do find that, when the pads are contaminated, as when they are wet, or after riding through 1/4 mile of 3" sand, I might hear a few "whiff-whiff-whiffs" until the environment returns to more normal). 

I have been very pleasantly surprised at the performance of Avid's current Road BB7. Using stock Shimano aero levers, I can set the pads comfortably far from the rotors, get solid braking, yet preserve that "solid" lever feel that I never got with the Mountain version of the BB7 and both Tektro and Cane Creek V brake levers. In fact, I could easily release my pads even more, for more lever travel, and still have all the qualities described.

Secrets to setup: most important, learning that while lever travel is linear, actuation arm travel increases with pull, so that you must clamp your arm to your cable until the arm has moved 25-30% through its arc. Also: I switched from generic housing to Jagwire; perhaps this helped too, though I've not isolated the arm attachment from the different housing.

At any rate, while I'd probably buy -- Spyres? -- the model that actuates both pads, if I were to do this again, the current BB7 Roads are impeccable.

Patrick Moore

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[Patrick Moore]

Basically, no matter the type of brake, their ain't no free lunch: high leverage and more stopping power per unit of lever squeezing force comes at the cost of tighter clearances.  The only thing that changes are the location and scale of those tolerances.  

Well said. I guess that, by attaching my cables to the Avid BB7 Roads' arms only after the arm has moved through part of its arc, I've basically changed the leverage ratio. It works for me! And I don't notice any diminution of braking power.

As for modulation, I don't find that these are any more abrupt than the other mechanical discs I've used.

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[Bill Lindsay]

Jeremy

None of the hydraulic brakes I've ever worked on have any way to change the pad to rotor spacing.  I've only worked on like 20 bikes worth.  For somebody like Patrick Moore who carefully and fastidiously sets up his mechanical disc brakes for maximum pad clearance, I would call that a major difference.  From my perspective, hydraulic disc brakes are self-adjusting, and you better like how they self-adjust, because you can't meaningfully change them at the caliper, from any adjustment perspective.  There are reach adjusters at the levers, but that just sizes the levers to your hand. 

Am I missing out on some class of hydraulic calipers that allow you to adjust pad clearance?

Bill

[Jeremy Till]

Hey Bill--no that's right, hydraulic calipers don't really give you any adjustment other than alignment.  I was noting that some hydraulics seem to run with their pads a bit further from the rotor than others, and that as with mechanical rim brakes, this seems to be related to the leverage characteristics of the braking system.  

[Bill Lindsay]

Thanks Jeremy

This is the reason that I suspect the OP Patrick Moore would dislike hydraulic brakes.  Or, more accurately, why his reaction to hydraulic brake X would be binary.  Either it will self-adjust to perfect, and he's love them, or they would self-adjust to imperfect, and he'd hate the inability to do much about it.  

Bill

[masmojo]

I came to disc brakes by accident; I have always favored Cantis, but I really wanted a Rawland Drakkar & they were disc only!
Thus far I've only used mechanicals, Hayes & BB7's. Initially, I thought they were frustratingly fiddly, but I've gotten to the point were I can actually adjust them easier then any other brake.
I get the argument that they don't offer superior braking; in theory it's true, but in real world use, from experience, I would say they are better!
This all leads up to the million dollar question: would a Rivendell still be a Rivendell if it had disc brakes, 1 1/8 steerer, and clamp on Stem? YES! Yes it would.
My basic standpoint is this; do you gotta go with the latest and greatest? No, but, 1 1/8 inch steerers, threadless headsets/stems & disc brakes have been around for 20ish years (plus), they are so old they are almost retro themselves. And, if they weren't good, if they weren't an improvement, they would have gone by the wayside ages ago.
I am hopeful that forrays into these areas by the recent tandem will help to break down resistance to these advancements.

[Bill Lindsay]

What resistance are you trying to break down?  Are you trying to break down resistance at Rivendell Bicycle Works, and trying to convince them to make more mainstream bicycles?  Or are you trying to break down resistance of readers of the RBW owners Bunch google Group?

Rivendell offers bikes that you can't get anywhere else.  If you want a disc brake bike mountain bike, there are literally a hundred different vendors to sell one to you.  Rivendell would say "godspeed" to you as you go enjoy that bike.  

Asking Rivendell to make vanilla mainstream bikes strikes me like asking a sushi restaurant to sell you pizza.  If you want pizza, why not just go buy pizza from a restaurant that likes making pizza and is good at it? 

 

Is it that you are looking out for Rivendell's best interests?  The mainstream is over here, and if Rivendell made more mainstream bikes, they would be more profitable?  You can buy a Bombadil frameset today for $3000.  If Grant redid the Bombadil with new dropouts and new 1-1/8" lugs and with new disc brake attach points, and it now cost $3800, and Grant told you it would be available in two years, would you buy one?  

My approach is to let Rivendell make what they are good at.  Offering constructive suggestions is great, but I trust Rivendell knows more about their business than I do.  I trust them to offer products they like.  If I like the products they offer, I'll continue putting money in their register.  When my broad cycling interests take me to products Riv doesn't offer, I buy those products from businesses that like selling them.  

Bill who-owns-two-disc-brake-Niners Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Patrick Moore]

What defines a Rivendell for me are:

1. Ride characteristics and quality.

2. Quality of build -- strength, but also appearance.

3. Aesthetics, or more simply, the way they look; but this is more general than lugs: even a tigg'd Rivendell would have a sober but not dull appearance with nice graphics and, above all, a general sense of proportion among the parts.

Anything else IMO is secondary, even if desirable.

I can see some Rivendells quite happily accepting disc brakes and keeping the qualities above. I don't think a Roadeo with discs would be Rivendellian, but a Hunq with discs would be, or even a Sam.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:22 AM, masmojo <mas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

... would a Rivendell still be a Rivendell if it had disc brakes, 1 1/8 steerer, and clamp on Stem? YES! Yes it would.

[Patrick Moore]

This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical discs, then I have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really steep technical stuff, but for my sort of riding, any good cable operated brake, disc or rim, is easily adequate.

So, I'll scratch hydraulics. Now, to learn if the 2-sided actuated mechanicals are easier to set up for less rub and more power than single action ones like the BB7. Once again, I am very happy with my BB7s, so seeking out Spyres or whatever they are would be like dropping Julia Roberts to pursue Cindy Crawford (I'm out of date, I know it, but these are the only pretty faces I can think of at the moment). But if Spyres (or whatever) allow bigger pad distances with the same or better power, then they might be worth buying at some point. Me, I haven't found adjustment for pad wear a matter needing attention, with the BB7s I've used.

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[Orc]

In my experience, the fiddly bit of hydraulic brakes is the tubing; otherwise they're about as well behaved as a good pair of rim brakes.  And you don't pay the Spyre or Hy/rd premium for them (if you care at all about how single-piston brakes need to shove the disk into the other caliper.)

(And there ain't anything about a Riv that keeps anyone from brazing disc tabs onto it, except the initial frame cost.)

-david parsons

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 10:57:38 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical discs, then I have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really steep technical stuff, but for my sort of riding, any good cable operated brake, disc or rim, is easily adequate.

So, I'll scratch hydraulics. Now, to learn if the 2-sided actuated mechanicals are easier to set up for less rub and more power than single action ones like the BB7. Once again, I am very happy with my BB7s, so seeking out Spyres or whatever they are would be like dropping Julia Roberts to pursue Cindy Crawford (I'm out of date, I know it, but these are the only pretty faces I can think of at the moment). But if Spyres (or whatever) allow bigger pad distances with the same or better power, then they might be worth buying at some point. Me, I haven't found adjustment for pad wear a matter needing attention, with the BB7s I've used.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Jeremy

This is the reason that I suspect the OP Patrick Moore would dislike hydraulic brakes.  Or, more accurately, why his reaction to hydraulic brake X would be binary.  Either it will self-adjust to perfect, and he's love them, or they would self-adjust to imperfect, and he'd hate the inability to do much about it.  

Bill

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Till wrote:

Hey Bill--no that's right, hydraulic calipers don't really give you any adjustment other than alignment.  I was noting that some hydraulics seem to run with their pads a bit further from the rotor than others, and that as with mechanical rim brakes, this seems to be related to the leverage characteristics of the braking system.  

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[Bill Lindsay]

"If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more fiddly"

I guess I need a definition of the term 'fiddly'.  When I hear the word 'fiddly', my brain hears "I'm not a mechanic, and I don't know how things work, and no matter how much random wrenching I throw at this subsystem of the bike, it never works well.  Don't ask me what I tried because I don't remember"

I think you, Patrick Moore, mean something other than that when you say fiddly, but I don't know what that definition is.  The point with hydraulics is that you don't adjust them.  They adjust themselves.  If 'to fiddle' is a synonym of 'to adjust' or 'to tune', then you don't do any of that.  You basically set them up.  

Setting up a hydraulic disk brake involves resetting the brake pads (spreading them wide open with a suitable plastic brake pry-bar).  Then you put the wheel in, and you pump the brake lever.  The pistons work their way in until the brakepads find the rotor.  Only when they hit the rotor to the return springs make the pistons open a tiny bit.  That's it.  You are done.  If you think the caliper is off center in some way, reposition it and start over.  There is no adjustment, no fiddling.  So, I think you would say they are less fiddly because you don't have to fiddle with them, but you better like them, because you can't fiddle with them, at least not in the way I think you would consider important (pad clearance from the rotor).

Bill

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 10:57:38 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

This is good to know. If hydraulics are just a fiddly as, or even more fiddly (depending on the make and model) than good mechanical discs, then I have no need for them. I suppose I'd want them for riding really steep technical stuff, but for my sort of riding, any good cable operated brake, disc or rim, is easily adequate.

So, I'll scratch hydraulics. Now, to learn if the 2-sided actuated mechanicals are easier to set up for less rub and more power than single action ones like the BB7. Once again, I am very happy with my BB7s, so seeking out Spyres or whatever they are would be like dropping Julia Roberts to pursue Cindy Crawford (I'm out of date, I know it, but these are the only pretty faces I can think of at the moment). But if Spyres (or whatever) allow bigger pad distances with the same or better power, then they might be worth buying at some point. Me, I haven't found adjustment for pad wear a matter needing attention, with the BB7s I've used.

On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Jeremy

This is the reason that I suspect the OP Patrick Moore would dislike hydraulic brakes.  Or, more accurately, why his reaction to hydraulic brake X would be binary.  Either it will self-adjust to perfect, and he's love them, or they would self-adjust to imperfect, and he'd hate the inability to do much about it.  

Bill

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, Jeremy Till wrote:

Hey Bill--no that's right, hydraulic calipers don't really give you any adjustment other than alignment.  I was noting that some hydraulics seem to run with their pads a bit further from the rotor than others, and that as with mechanical rim brakes, this seems to be related to the leverage characteristics of the braking system.  

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[Clayton.sf]

"Fiddly" to me means: something needs a higher amount of repeated fiddling-with to achieve desired results than is reasonable to me.

Example: Two wheelsets with the same rotor and hub that still require me to re-center the hydro disc caliper after each swap and then one more time after the first hour of riding after the wheel beds in the dropouts.

Clayton Scott

SF, CA

[Patrick Moore]

For me, the bottom line is having the pads sufficiently far from the disc to prevent that frequent rubbing that comes from very small changes in the rotors' trueness, or from dirt or water on the pads; that's part 1. Part 2 is, to get this distance without compromising braking power and without compromising lever feel, which practically speaking means that the levers don't bottom out as you reach peak braking power.

With my former MTB BB7s and Tektro V brake levers, I could get the pads far enough from the rim, as above, but then the levers would almost bottom out when squeezing hard. 

Doubtless I could simply ignore how the Tektro levers felt, but I didn't want to ignore it.

By "fiddling" I mean finding it hard to achieve this balance, and finding it only by involved adjustment and re-adjustment. Once again, my disc benchmark is my current BB7 Roads and Shimano road levers: pads far enough out, levers feel and act surprisingly like those on my road bikes with good quality single pivots (the discs stop at least as well, if not better).

So: the question for me is, will hydraulics keep the pads from rubbing as well as my current BB7s do, yet have good lever travel and feel, and brake at least as well? I assume that the last criterion is an easy "yes", but what about the other 2? From the earlier discussion, I understood that hydraulics will not as easily accomplish 1 and 2 as my BB7s.

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[Clayton.sf]

One more thing. Thru axles so far have eliminated the second re-centering that used to be required after the first few miles of riding after wheel re-installment. 

Disclaimer: I am super sensitive to things. Other people may not notice or care to this degree.

Clayton "Princess and the pea" Scott

SF, CA

[masmojo]

Bill, it would be a stretch to say I want Rivendell to go more mainstream. If that were the case I wouldn't even be here. But, embracing classic design, materials & craftsmanship need not come at the expense of practicality or functionality.
I could totally go either way with respect to disc brakes, but I do think they might make sense for certain models, like the Hunq.. No need to go there, but no real need to avoid it either.
One thing they've clung to though is 1" steer tubes and I am sorry, but there's a reason why nobody uses them anymore. They bend much more easily then the now standard 1 1/8".
I am a former bike shop employee from back in the day when 1" was all we had and we would regularly see bent steerers not from some extreme use or running into something; just from normal use over many years they would/could get a but of a bow in them, especially longer ones. But, I've never seen this with a 1 1/8" steerer.
Just about any custom builder these days will build with 1 1/8" it's just better, plain & simple. Additionally, for a company like Rivendell thats perpetually cash strapped; going to a 1 1/8" steerer could save them tons of money! Instead of needing a different fork for every size of every model. They could build one fork that could be used on a variety of models & sizes. And replacing a fork, should it become necessary would be a breeze and less expensive. No it's not quite so easy to raise and lower your stem, but honestly once I get my stem height dialed in, I never change it anywayz!
As Patrick said these things are not what define a Rivendell to me anyway. People don't stand around waxing about their bikes quill stem or caliper brakes; nothing wrong with those, but they are not critical elements.

[Clayton.sf]

Patrick, 

To answer your last question. I have never used BB7, but my XT and SLX hydros have kept the pads away suffiently after setup. 

- with QR axles setup involves initial centering in the stand with a follow centering after a few miles on the trail.

- with Thru axles setup involves initial centering in the stand with no follow centering (so far at least).

Best,

Clayton Scott

SF, CA

[Garth]

       Then again, I hope Riv never ever makes a disc brake frame.  As been said, there are countless people who will make you a  frame just the way you like it. 

      Also, try demanding a custom frame be designed in a very specific way from any given builder , and questing that builder when they don't want to do it that specific way for whatever their reasons , and see how that goes. After all, it's their business and craft, not yours.   You are free to shop somewhere else.

       Sure, you can have a frame made just like Riv, made to similar specs and ride qualities, but it will never be a Rivendell brand product. Is this so important , a name ?  

This reminds me all branding and how we get attached to brand names.

   Yeah , I hope "classic bike" style remains , no disc brakes for these .
     
 

[Patrick Moore]

But perhaps not as Rivendell would make it -- which is the point here.

[Patrick Moore]

Good to know; the question is becoming clearer. Your experience is with XT and SLX hydros which presumable have the sort of greater leverage Jeremy spoke of.

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[Brewster Fong]

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 11:53:11 AM UTC-7, Garth wrote:

       Then again, I hope Riv never ever makes a disc brake frame.  As been said, there are countless people who will make you a  frame just the way you like it. 

      Also, try demanding a custom frame be designed in a very specific way from any given builder , and questing that builder when they don't want to do it that specific way for whatever their reasons , and see how that goes. After all, it's their business and craft, not yours.   You are free to shop somewhere else.

Agree. I had this exact situation happen to me. Let's just say I tried to get a frame built by an established builder with one of the best reputation. However, what I wanted was to match modern components - i.e., e-shifting with his frame.  Basically, I was asking for a track bike with brakes and a RD hanger. He wouldn't do it. We went back and forth and he kept talking about building something similar for a guy in the 90s using Mavic Zap shifters. When that died, he ended up having to redo the frame to add shifter bosses and he swore never to do another one. 

Bottom line - you want something specific, find a builder that will do it!

       Sure, you can have a frame made just like Riv, made to similar specs and ride qualities, but it will never be a Rivendell brand product. Is this so important , a name ?  

This reminds me all branding and how we get attached to brand names.

   Yeah , I hope "classic bike" style remains , no disc brakes for these .

Then again, I haven't been following Riv for a while and was kind of disappointed that they now offer tig-welded frames?!  That to me is disappointing as I love their lugs and there's plenty of tigged frames out there. But hey, it's a business and I understand the need.

Good Luck!

     
 

[Peter White]

Oh, no! Put a disc brake onto any Rivendell fork I've ever seen and after the first hard braking you'll have a severely bent left fork blade. Fork blades must be quite a bit stiffer to work with disc brakes.

PJW

In my experience, the fiddly bit of hydraulic brakes is the tubing; otherwise they're about as well behaved as a good pair of rim brakes.  And you don't pay the Spyre or Hy/rd premium for them (if you care at all about how single-piston brakes need to shove the disk into the other caliper.)

(And there ain't anything about a Riv that keeps anyone from brazing disc tabs onto it, except the initial frame cost.)

-david parsons

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[Clayton.sf]

Yes, those 2 are the only one I have experience with.

[Bill Lindsay]

I have no dispute with your opinions, masmojo.  It's totally fine to suggest them.  It's admirable that the suggestions are motivated by goodwill towards Rivendell's business.  My own stable has multiple bikes with 1-1/8" steerers, multiple bikes with hydraulic disc brakes, and multiple bike with threadless.  You are right that all three are very good things.  

1-1/8" steerers are stronger than 1".  Fact.  Even fatter would be even stronger.  There is something that is strong enough for riding, and Rivendell thinks 1" is strong enough.  Rivendell also thinks a fork SHOULD fail to save the frame.  There are plenty of options out there for folks who think 1" steerers are too weak for normal riding.  

Hydraulic disc brakes are more powerful.  Fact.  Dual hydraulic disc brakes would be even more powerful.  There is some amount of braking power that is powerful enough and Rivendell thinks rim brakes are powerful enough.  There are plenty of options out there for folks who think rim brakes are too weak for normal riding.  

Threadless steerers allow for cheaper manufacturing of bicycles.  Fact.  If a model comes with only one wheelsize, and if you don't have any qualms about using one fork rake for all sizes, then there is money to be saved.  Most Rivendell models have multiple wheelsizes through the size range, and different fork rakes for different sizes.  There are multiple options out there for those who want to know that more attempts at manufacturing efficiency were made in the design of their bike.  

[masmojo]

Bill, part of my concern is also long term viability. As it stands it's getting very hard to replace Rivendell parts, because they are such throw backs. For forks you gotta go back to Rivendell or go custom & even custom might get hard to source at some point. It's doable now, but what about 10 or 15 years down the line?
Can I go somewhere else yeah, but I'd rather not.
VOs new Polyvalent should be in soon. It'll have low trail, 1 1/8" steerer & disc brakes! I am afraid I might hafta get one of those, but a Rosco Bubbe with those features would get my money faster.

[masmojo]

Correction it looks as though the new VO will have a quill stem after all. Strange.

[Bill Lindsay]

masmojo said "it's getting hard to replace Rivendell parts".  

Let me know what Rivendell part you are having a hard time finding, and I'll try to help you out.  If you are fretting about hypotheticals, I think that's a little bit unnecessary.  Jones makes awesome bikes.  I don't think it would be productive to fret that you might have to go back to Jones if you damage a Jones truss fork.  I don't think it would be productive criticism to inform Jones that they should stop making truss forks.  

[Philip Kim]

also to add, i don't think rivendell has ever made a choice based on saving themselves money, moreso saving the customer money. i rather like the quill stem even if for aesthetic reasons. never had a problem with them.

OTOH i bought an old raleigh (before they moved production from UK), and the steerer tube was bent inside the headtube, so it stuck if you turned too far one way. Of course, it was also a few decades old before I rode it and who knows what the previous owners did to it before it got to me. I still rode it for a few years until it finally seized.

[Brewster Fong]

I have to agree that thoughts about parts becoming extinct or hard to find is becoming paranoia. Really, quill stems? There's nitto. But don't forget that kalloy and sunlite, chinese made stuff, still sell quill stems.  Steel forks? Come on, as long as there are steel framebuilders, there will always be a way to get a steel fork - custom or not!

OK, now maybe if you're talking french or rarer Swiss bottom bracket threads.  Well, guess what, Phil Wood still offers bb with french and swiss threading! Heck, you can get a bb for Raleigh Super Corsa and Chater Lea threads too:

We offer the following bottom bracket cup threadings (all cups are sold as a set and include thread retaining compound):
• British (1.370 x 24 tpi, RH/LH thread) in stainless steel and 7075 aluminum
• Italian (36mm x 24 tpi) in stainless steel and 7075 aluminum
• French (35mm x 1mm) stainless steel
• Swiss (35mm x 1mm, RH/LH thread) stainless steel
• Raleigh Super Corsa (1.370 x 26 tpi, RH/LH thread) stainless steel
• Chater Lea (1.450″ x 26 tpi, RH/LH thread) stainless steel
• T47 (47 x 1 tpi, RH/LH thread) 7075 aluminum

link:  http://www.philwood.com/products/bbhome.php

Now it may not be cheap, but at least it is still available!  So instead of fretting about what may or may not be around in 20 years, I say get out and enjoy whatever you got!

Good Luck!

[Garth]

  Steel frames are not going away.  There are many large and small operations that do custom frames and repair. Here in Ohio for example is Jack Franklin who makes his own and repairs any steel frame. He also does Al and Ti makes of his own. By far he said he thrives on repairs, often fixing them for manufacturers too.  He's not a big name you see, we think framebuilders are just those with a fancy website or famous name and such. Jack for example works out his own farmhouse workshop, no overhead to pay for so he doesn't have to charge a ton of $$.

   Frame building is always an art, and there will always be artists.

   For the small parts ..... fear of the future does nothing but ruin today.

[Justin, Oakland]

The reality about parts is this:
- you can fit a modern outboard bearing crank on a Riv. 68mm bb shells aren't going away.
- rim brakes aren't going away.
- seatposts? Always there
- saddles are fine
- quills stems are produced constantly by several makers
- tires we have MORE of now than 10 years ago!
- we now have more dynamo hubs too!
- plenty of nice rear hubs, including MUSA
- Microshift has reinvigorated thumb and bar end shifting
- we have so many choices of racks and bags nowadays

The worries are
- 26" & 650b rims for rim brakes.
- forks? That's a weird concern. I think the number of forks that Riv has had to replace is pretty low as illustrated by their selling off of forks and building weirdo bikes around them recently
- ??

There's a lot to be said of why Riv should do x, y or z but scarcity of parts is silly.

-J

[RJM]

Yeah, I don't think scarcity of parts would be on my list for worries with a Riv. Build quality, ride quality, and ease of maintenance has always been great with Rivendells for me.

But, and this is just for me and my current riding life, Riv is unfortunately not making a bike for my riding style currently. I've gone to another company for my steel mountain bike which fits my riding more and checks the boxes more. If I started doing more touring or bike camping a Riv would be on the list. The riding I'm doing the more modern components and features like disc brakes, threadless steer tubes and headsets, and some other stuff are important.

[lconley]

My 2 cents:

Three cheers for building weirdo frames around surplus forks. I have a Rosco V1 and am patiently awaiting my MMM (Medium Mountain Mixte)

Disc brakes (and V brakes) are ugly and a pain to adjust. I have two bikes with discs (hydraulic) not counting the HHH. My Bike Friday has V brakes.  None stop as well or have better feel than my cantilevered Bombadil.

Threadless headset stems are ugly except for maybe the Cunningham based VO Cigne.

I have two Gitanes with French threads, I can still get parts for them, no problem. The correct tool for the fixed BB cup, not so much.

Let Rivendell be Rivendell. Does the high / low trail tiff get as passionate as the disc debate?

[Orc]

You've gotta put a reinforcing rib on the back of the caliper-side fork blade;  it's fussy, but it doesn't spoil the look of a riv fork NEARLY as much as jackknifing one of the fork blades.

-david parsons

[Orc]

On Friday, June 23, 2017 at 1:16:58 PM UTC-7, masmojo wrote:

For forks you gotta go back to Rivendell or go custom 

   If you want the Riv look, yes, but there are still plenty of third-party forks in the 1" steertubeway out there if getting a replacement is necessary and you can't afford the time or money for Riv/custom.

   -david parsons

[Jay Connolly]

I used only canti brakes a quite a while. Then I went ro discs. When I discovered v-brakes, I wondered why I had bothered with discs. For true MTBs, I think discs are an advantage in mud, and I prefer XT-level hydraulics, which have been faultless, for me. Most mechanicals are fiddly, though the best I've found are TRP Spyres, which are less so. Back to v-brakes: TRP CX9s are the strongest brakes I have used--bar none, including discs. They don't allow much more than a 35mm tire with fenders, but they are strong enough to pitch anyone over the bars. On my Appaloosa I'm running Avid Single-Digit 7s, ands they are more than strong enough for me--as good or better than any mechanical disc I've used.

Having said that, there's this: Riv can't win the battle against industry "progress" on this issue, unfortunately, because the perception will be that the bikes are pre-obsolete and the fear will be that replacement parts will be unavailable. Both will hit sales harder and harder as time marches forward. I ride with 30-year-olds who have never owned a bike without discs. As these people age and acquire the earning power to embrace a wider set of values in their bicycles, they will likely reject the bikes on the brake issue. I love everything about the company, including their collective stubbornness, but I would also like to see the business survive and thrive.

Jay

[ascpgh]

I don't see it as any battle against industry "progress", but rather the preservation of options. Objectively it can be argued that something is better for whatever scalar  you choose, that does not make me like it. Preference is very important when you have persisted in an equipment dependent activity such cycling. 

I prefer a manual transmission and when my car requires replacement, I'm going to be in a very dark place for a very long time since that option is becoming rare as hens' teeth. I realize how much faster modern cars are with more gears in their auto boxes than a single stick could shift, I get all the "improvements" and "benefits" but I'm talking about subjective experiences here (and don't get me started about electric assist power steering). Web pages are filled with the ranting inexperienced, reciting numbers and data points substantiating their objective position on the issue. I rebuilt several of my early cars' gearboxes, hydraulic clutch systems and replaced clutch discs while opportune. I know how they work, I appreciate that and operating them. The same goes for my bike gear. I have preferences that are independent of "advances" that would make me (fill in a performance scalar used by ad copy for latest cycling gear here).

I ride with a bunch of 20-30 year olds from spring through fall and often I am the only ferrous framed rider present and the only rider with fenders. I don't even talk to them about having eight cogs that I operate with a friction bar end shifter. It is notable that I make more time on them in our urban rides when stop lights turn green. The combination of the apparent mysterious cycle leading to that surprise green light and the exhibited under-rehearsed clipping-in of their down foot when the color change occurs gives me almost a half block lead without mechanical advantages. I have too many years of commuting to draw the ire of surrounding motorists for slow uptake of the "GO" signal or mechanical fumbling slowing my departure from the intersection. 

I recently switched out the original Shimano side pull (double pivot) calipers with a pair of Paul's Racer center mount center pulls to grow some tire and fender space on my Rambouillet and I love them. My commuter has BB-7s and for its uses, I'm fine with them too. Subjectively I am having more fun on my Ram because I am not going to or coming home from work. Both kinds of brakes have a clear purpose to go on existing, and should. 

Rivendell is a very good example of how to promote a set of options not in resistance to any particular technology coming form the industry but rather finding peace with a segment and promoting the ease of achieving cycling happiness they find in their segment of the full bandwidth. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh,

[ascpgh]

Meant to say "often" the only ferrous framed rider present some weeks.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Bill Lindsay]

Jay Connolly prophesied what will happen if Rivendell doesn't make a disc-brake single bike.  

I've prophesied that Rivendell is not going to make a disc-brake single bike.  

BUT....if they did decide to make a test run of disc brake equipped bikes, what would you have them build?  In my opinion, the way they should do it would be to take the tandem and hack the middle out of it:  https://www.rivbike.com/collections/web-special-frames/products/tandem?variant=39171992845

The segmented fork design allows them to use 9/8" threadless steerer without having to cast a new fork crown.  The existing braze-on headtube rings also are established components.  

They'd need a disc-brake tab solution, maybe off the shelf, and (I hope) a through-axle fork tip.  

The rear end is also close to done.  They could stay with the existing vertical QR dropouts, but a through axle would be much more forward-looking.  Mike Varley collaborated with SoulCraft to design the through axle solution for the SoulCraft Treehorn.  Maybe Riv could buy those dropouts.  

The result might be an even-beefier disc-Hunqapillar, made in Taiwan, and could be significantly less expensive than the $1800 price point of the tandem, maybe half-way between the $850 Clem and the $1800 tandem.  Maybe a $1300 frameset.  Build 50 of those to test the waters.  That wouldn't be impossible, and in the Rosco-Bubbe kind of batch-format, wouldn't involve any deep apostasy to their core values.  

I don't think they will do it, but if they did something like that, it would not be insane, in my opinion.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Hugh Smitham]

All very interesting comments.

I see a Rivendell like I see a vintage volvo or vintage muscle car in regards to the enthusiast values the aesthetic of a different era of manufacture. This is why I would not expect Rivendell to change. They exist as a niche within the greater whole. If you want a modern bicycle for a specific reason then as others mention there are ton's of off the shelf or custom way's to go. 

On the OP about disc brakes. They have their place and purpose. In the continuum of all things mechanical a mechanical device is not without its specific peculiarity always a compromise. On my Bantam adventure (bikepacking) rig I have Paul Clampers mated to Shimano ice tech rotors. They stop great! They work great on a descent with a load and my hands aren't aching later. There is a point where no matter how good your braking is there will be lock up and a momentum slide, to me this is user error coming up to an obstruction/ feature too hot.  In loaded descents you can keep the rim brakes. What's annoying about the discs. On initially applying the brakes there's squeal on the rear then it's gone. And then there is the caliper/rotor rub, I loosen the caliper squeeze the lever and re-tighten the caliper. 

I think for purpose built bikes meant for the road or cross bikes rim brakes are plenty good. I have some mini-motos and they're awesome. On a quill stem v threadless. The quill wins on beauty but the 1 1/8 or tapered headset wins in the function arena. 

We are in what feels like to me the renaissance of bicycling similar to the late 19th century when 1 of every 2 patents was for a bicycle. Glad to be alive in this era.

~hugh

On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 8:09:11 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

I'm putting this in a new thread, because I have some questions. Note: I'm not disagreeing, I'm asking because I want to know more. 

Clayton said, in the Rivs On Block thread:

- More margin betw. rim and brake to adjust for rub. Disc brakes usually have much tighter clearances and make it a much more fiddly affair to get rid of rub (applies mostly to hydros)

- Typically lighter weight

[...]

- Pads tend to last longer

#1: I agree that this is very true for mechanical discs, but for hydraulics? I thought that pads for hydraulics allowed more gap than those for mechanicals, at least once-sided-pull mechanicals. For me, this isn't merely academic; it may influence my choice of mechanicals over hydraulics one day.

#2: Yes, calipers are lighter, but then disc-specific rims can be much lighter than rim brake rims, at least in the wider sizes.

#3: I've read that this is true; I've also read the opposite (recently, in a review of some disc setup -- Bike Radar? Which one is true?

I do know that my Kool Stop salmons seem to last years if not decades.

[Patrick Moore]

I think discs have been oversold in the bike market, and IME V brakes are ideal brakes if you want stopping power, wide tires, and ease of setup. But discs do have this advantage, that they allow you to use a very light rim -- practically tubular rim weight. The Velocity Blunt SS has a claimed weight of 430 grams in the 700C size -- that's the claimed weight of the old MA40 - and this rim is 35 mm wide on the outside (forget inside measurement). This is a big plus, IMO.

And, once you learn the technique of setting up mechanicals, they're not that hard. Certainly, I've found them easier than cantilevers! Frankly, I think mechanicals have a very useful niche in the brake world -- cheaper and simpler than hydraulics, as far as I've read, and again, once you know the technique, easy enough to set up. Don't dismiss the BB7s, either -- they're very good brakes.

I don't understand the animus against a Riv with discs. Disc brakes are just brakes; they have their uses, as do all the other types. They oughtn't to be tarred with the "marketing hi tek hype" brush.

That said, I think that most bikes ought to have rim brakes simply because they are a simpler, cheaper way to get the effects you need, compared to discs of any sort.

As for disc brakes on road bikes: I think that I am right in believing that they are popular on road bikes because rim brakes don't work very well on carbon fiber rims. Is this right?

(I wonder if cork pads would work on cf rims, as they do on wooden rims. Come to think of that, why not wood rims instead of cf? But enough of the tangential questions!)

Jay

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[Patrick Moore]

Andy: I take it that you are riding no-retention?

Aside: interesting: I used MKS RX-1 track pedals on my gofast for a while, with clips and straps and strap buttons (very useful little doodads), and excessively kool old skool Rivats with leather soles and 2-bolt slotted cleats. I found it quite easy to slip in and tighten the right foot. When I switched to Keos, I never was able to clip with with the same aplomb and elegance as with the Rivats. (Now I use almost-as-cool-as-the-Rivats 8 speed era Dura Ace single sided SPD pedals with old, adapted, Mavic road shoes -- much easier than the Keos but not as easy as the Rivats-cum-RX-1s.)

[Patrick Moore]

The defect of this point of view is that one would not be able to get a bike that handles and fits and feels like a Rivendell, but that has disc brakes, short of taking your Hunq or Atlantis to a local builder.

I'd swap my Matthews, as much as I like it, for a disc-brake Hunq! (But single top tube only!)

[Orc]

On Monday, June 26, 2017 at 12:16:46 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

Jay Connolly prophesied what will happen if Rivendell doesn't make a disc-brake single bike.  

I've prophesied that Rivendell is not going to make a disc-brake single bike.  

BUT....if they did decide to make a test run of disc brake equipped bikes, what would you have them build? 

Disc Appa or Rosco.   The new crown on the Appaloosa fork has a more industrial look, so a proper disc mount would not look out of place  (and a 12mm T-A dropout, in the world where mirror Grant went full disc fashion) would not overwhelm the fork blades plus it would open up a whole world of 650b wheelsets instead of the anemic selection -- not that I'm bitter! -- of rim brakeable rims that can be put under them now.

-david parsons

[Garth]

Canti brakes are not going away anytime soon. Of course "the industry" is pushing them because that is their business, to sell stuff and for no other reason. (Don't get me started on how the cassette wheel system is supposedly so superior to the fw system..... ahahahahahaa!, and save the rebuttals for babylon)

Here is an interesting read..... https://davidrroberts.wordpress.com/2016/02/16/cx-brakes/

Seems canti and all rim brakes are alive and well even in the mud, and thank goodness many in Europe are not so fast to jump on a bandwagon just because someone says jump on, it's what you need. America is eutopia for that, I'm suprised many shops don't have lines around the block with folks who just cannot wait to get a disc bike! "I want it because I want it"..... and why do you want it ? "Because I want it !"

[Hugh Smitham]

Lol. The defect. Hahaha. I think your point of view is a little fiddly. You have a Matthews, which is a custom builder of frames. So presumably you could have built whatever type of bike you wanted which would have the ride characteristic you seek. You could have told Matthews I want a single top tube disc Hunq and he may have told you to go find another builder. But some builder will build you what you want.

My point in your selection of my post is pointing out one reason Rivendell is likely to resist modern change like adopting discs or discarding quill stems. They did succumb to tig welding to achieve a price point and open up the pool of enthusiasts that value the Rivendell ethos and aesthetic. That was a smart business maneuver. If they go modern they risk watering down their brand. For better or worse Grant made their niche.

I'll take my Bantam 1.125 threadless headset, disc brakes and high stack height/ Jones bars over a hunq or Atlantis, which is exactly what I did. It does what I wished my Atlantis had been capable of. 

To be clear I love many aspects of what Riv does. Beautiful frames and forks, 7, 8 & 9 speed drives a get out there and ride ethos. But especially the people, the Rivendell people are the absolute best. This means you.

~hugh

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[Patrick Moore]

Chauncey builds great bikes, but he doesn't build bikes that handle like Rivendells, and I'm not sure another builder to do so would be that easy to find, and certainly not at Chauncey's prices. 

I must say though that my hankering for a Hunq is a very light or modest hankering; I'm very happy with the Matthews.

Moving back to disc brakes: the point I was trying to make is that discs are not some sort of evil modernity foisted on the hapless bicycle buying public, they are a brake option that has real merits that any reasonable builder will at least consider on these merits.

I think that much of the sales pitch is hype, but disc brakes as such are not in se mere hype.

Now, perhaps Grant will never, ever build a disc-braked bike, and that's fine; it's his company. But I don't think discs would dilute his product; after all, isn't what most makes Rivendells to be Rivendells the ride and the feel? If not, if it's just rim brakes and retro styling, then they're just pretty consumer objects.

And Hugh, I'm not picking on you at all, just used your post as the occasion to make my points.

Aside: read an old NYT review of Just Ride, and saw that Grant said that, after all, bikes should above all be fun, and that the highest accolade for a good bike is that it's a toy! Approve heartily! (A very useful toy, but it's the fun that is the most important thing, otherwise we'd just go out and buy cars, or mopeds, or utility bikes.)

But with this book, he’s trying to bring biking back to a state of moderation and rationality. If you like the gear, he’s fine with that, and if you don’t agree with all his advice, no problem. But he makes the case that at its core, biking should be a simple, democratic, sometimes ludicrously enjoyable means of getting around. “No matter how much your bike costs,” he says, “unless you use it to make a living, it is a toy, and it should be fun.” Amen. 

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[Ash A]

Someone else in this thread said why should it be one way or the other.  There are many, many aspects of Riv bikes that I swear by - which is the reason I spend 3x the money (as compared to off-the-shelf choices I had considered) building one.   Introducing discs doesn't make all the other fabulous things go away.  I had looked at one bike (maybe SOMA) that supported both discs and rim brakes.  Perhaps such design adds to the cost and changes certain ride characteristics. Just how today on my Joe I can chose a V-brake or Cantis, it'd be great if there was an option to go with disc if there's a reason.   

I don't have a reason to go with discs. I also think they would noise to the way my bike looks.  However, I can live with those mounts being there on my bike.

Question to Jay Connolly:  what's the bigger tire (with fenders) do you think I can have on my Appaloosa if I were to use Avid Single-Digit 7?  Thanks.

[Orc]

I know I'm sounding like a parrot here and I'll stfu after this, but Riv sells steel bikes and of the approximately 1,000,000 framebuilders in the United States (true, most of them are in Portland, but bikeflights is your friend) there are bound to be some are capable of and would happily put proper disc mounts onto the Riv machine of your choice.   Of all the niggling little things that Grant won't do, disc mounts are pretty much the easiest to do as an aftermarket change.

-david parsons

[ascpgh]

I use SPDs, or should I say I have mastered using them and have stuck with them 

I stay out of the clipless/platform conversations. This is an old habit and muscle memory I've had since rehabbing from injury/surgery. Had pretty serious neuropathy and proprioception trouble and kept my foot from floating off the pedal at top of the stroke with double strap toe clips at first, clipless when the walkable cleat matured.

Of all the higher tech, lower weight, improved float range and management pedals available out there, I seldom observe many on our urban group rides who have mastered getting in and out of them, resulting in very early unclipping while still moving along pretty well and braking, which seems like a a control issue to me. I stay connected until stopped. Riv content: my comparatively low BB and overall frame design lets me to steady myself adequately without coming off the saddle. So many of the plastic go faster bike riders have to come off their seats, unsnap their prop foot and brake in the group when approaching traffic controls.  

Failure to electrically shift to a gear permitting pedaling from a stop and finding the pedal with their cleat and overcoming their Nelson Vails degree of retention force adjustment just demonstrates that I prefer to master what I ride. 

Tonight's offering: http://www.teamdecaf.com/images/CaliforniaHereWeCome26%20miles.pdf

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Mark in Beacon]

Written in this thread:

But I don't think discs would dilute his product; after all, isn't what most makes Rivendells to be Rivendells the ride and the feel? If not, if it's just rim brakes and retro styling, then they're just pretty consumer objects.

Of all the niggling little things that Grant won't do, disc mounts are pretty much the easiest to do as an aftermarket change.

I think it is more than just what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, or Grant being a "retrogrouch" and simply not doing "niggling little things" for the sake of that label. (Also,  I would not call current Rivendells, with OS tubing, upsloping top tubes--and the long head tubes that creates--fat tires, V brakes, super long stems, super long chainstays, etc., particularly retro--certainly not l'eroica. But that's another topic.)

After not having visited in a long time, despite being only an hour and change train ride away, I found myself in New York City several times this past month on business. The bicycle infrastructure has certainly grown. But the biggest change I noticed was the proliferation of people riding bicycles that they were not pedaling.  And how they interacted with other traffic--particularly other cyclists. In the bike shops, even my local, tiny mom and pop that features mostly Kona commuters (and in a recent Compass email showing a bunch of wheels lying around) I am amazed at the number of discs to be found--a braking system adopted from motorcycles. On a recent group ride, several riders had electronic shifting. I know I read somewhere Grant talking about these emerging--and merging--trends, and what that will mean in 15-20 years. This is a person who's career has been defined by, not retrostyling or retrogrouching, but thinking about bicycles and what defines a good, useful, aesthetically pleasing, joyful one, and at the same time bucking trends that seem to complicate or distract from that.

For someone that thinks about these things, maybe it starts to become, not what makes a Rivendell a Rivendell, but what makes a bicycle a bicycle. And where would you come down to draw that line, based on your own feelings and opinions about it, especially as a small-scale designer and seller of bicycles. (I am not implying here that Grant thinks bicycles with disc brakes are not bicycles. In fact, I am not implying anything about what he thinks, just speculatin' on the internets!) Someone once mentioned to my tai chi teacher that they had heard of others who were combining tai chi with music and more dance-like forms, and was that okay. Master Yu replied "Tai chi is tai chi. Shaolin is shaolin. Dance is dance." I know, not a perfect analogy, but perhaps enough to make my point. But then again, there is that Reese's commercial, "Hey, you got chocolate in my peanut butter."

Grant has alluded to other staff members having various levels of input on some of the Rosco bikes. Some builds now feature STI, as configured by "staff name here." I would imagine if a disc Riv were ever to emerge, it could be, like a Mark's Rack, a Bob's HunqaDiscar, or what have you. Electronic shifting and seat tube motor optional (the full Reese's!)

Quote: I don't understand the animus against a Riv with discs.

I would not argue that these trends don't have their place. It could be a very good development in many respects, considering some of the problems of the world. But at what point should the vehicles featuring them be called something other than a bicycle? Anyway, as we know, Rivendell, tandem excepted, does not currently make disc brake bikes, for reasons they have explained any number of times. And in actuality, any animus regarding this design choice (too strong a word either way though--frustration?) would appear to be more from the Why won't Riv do discs camp.

[Patrick Moore]

Your colleagues' awkwardness with getting into and out of pedals makes me think of my younger self, some 25+ years ago, when I started using slotted cleats and early clipless systems -- Grafton! Sampson! -- I recall the (very carefully hidden) trepidation with which I approached every red light and stop sign. (I'd been using clips and straps with street shoes since the early 1970s.) I recall thinking myself pretty expert when I began using Specialized cyclocross shoes with slotted cleats and mildly spiked soles for mountain biking, and experiencing a small shiver of self congratulation when a riding colleague asked me, mixing wonder and doubt, whether they were safe.

Age brings expertise ...Except I still can't get into Looks easily! (No more Looks in the fleet, though.)

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 4:32 AM, ascpgh <asc...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

[Garth]

Here is a perspective from Rodriguez Bikes who custom builds tandem, road, mtb and touring frames and bikes.

http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/disco-fever/disco-fever.html

http://rodcycle.com/articles/brakes.html

And for those thinking they can just have some fittings brazed on to their Riv as-is, think again. Interesting about the wheel builds from RodBikes, they use a heavier rim and spokes for their disc setups than cantilever. 1.5 to 2 pounds total extra.

Grant has already his position on this whole disc brake deal btw, period end of story on their end. This is not the same as lugs, lugs have nothing to do with the actual riding experience of the bike, brakes do.

[Patrick Moore]

the V-brake was the worst of both worlds really, but that's a whole different article

Now why would he say that? 

[Garth]

He goes into that in the second link Patrick.

[Patrick Moore]

I just read it.

Good articles, and I agree with most of what he says. 

Still, disc brakes have their place, among the advantages is very light rims; that and not wearing out expensive rims quickly are the main reasons I like discs on my dirt road bike.

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

He goes into that in the second link Patrick.

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[ascpgh]

Mark wrote: " I would imagine if a disc Riv were ever to emerge, it could be, like a Mark's Rack, a Bob's HunqaDiscar,"

"DiscoHunq"?

Grant had said a rim is a rotor. Having never replaced a rotor on either of the two bikes I've had with disk, I find the argument that you don't have to replace worn brake web rims is a weak one for me. Mine usually need replacement/rebuilding for becoming less-than-round from the collected bumps not seen before being hit.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Mark in Beacon]

Oh, yes. DiscoHunq. Genius. Now they almost have to do it. Maybe a disco ball with a J. Travolta figure wearing Riv Spats as the headbadge...

[William!]

After almost 10 years of commuting and touring I wrecked my Atlantis when a car pulled out in front of me. Besides taco'ing the wheel, it needed a new fork and tube replacements. When I got it rebuilt, I decided to switch to disc brakes instead of staying with cantilevers.

I'll start out by saying that the canti's on my Atlantis worked fine. I love the classic look of cantis, and in my experience modern cantilever brakes are easy to maintain and adjust. I routinely run tires 45mm+ tires, so I never considered v-brakes or centerpulls. Had I not wrecked the bike, I would have happily kept riding cantilevers as long as my Atlantis held out.

That said, I live in Portland, where you may have heard it rains a lot. I bike in all weather, all year. On really rainy days, braking performance degrades significantly when my rims get wet. Usually this isn't a big deal – you simply learn to brake in advance to clear the rims of water and restore full stopping power. However, if you need to stop suddenly and unexpectedly it can be a problem. Over several winters of commuting in this city, this happened to me a many times. It never resulted in a crash, but I had close calls. And had it been raining when I crashed my Atlantis, I likely would not have walked away.  After a lot of thought and consulting with an experienced builder, I chose to switch to disc brakes on my resurrected Atlantis.

This is not to say I think Rivendell should offer a disc option on the Atlantis or any other frame they offer. Discs have plenty of trade-offs, and if my riding involved less commuting in cities, riding in the rain less often or running narrower tires then I likely would have made a different choice. The nature of offering production frames is that you make trade-offs that make sense for most of your customers. Rivendell knows their customers' needs best (and what kinds of customers they want to have in the first place), so all I can say is that it was it wasn't best for me and my bike.

Best,

William

[Hugh Smitham]

Good points William.

Now let's get a look at this resurrected Anlanti with discs.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/

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[Clayton.sf]

Safety! Now there is an argument to upgrade the whole stable! ;-)

[Patrick Moore]

I'd love to see a photo of your disc'd Atlantis.

As for Jan's take on discs, I don't consider him a disc expert. Certainly, in my 50 years of riding all sorts of brakes, from rods to rod/Bowden hybrids, to Altenbergers, to mechanical discs, I deny that mechanicals with 160 mm rotors are not as powerful as centerpulls; certainly not in my experience. And the modulation thing is hardly a defect, it's so small.

I wholly agree that discs are not magic; nor are they flimflam from evil marketers. They are one choice among others, with their own pro's and con's, and their own place given certain circumstances.

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[Jesse]

I've heard a handful of folks on either the iBOB or 650b groups say their Riv forks are too stout for their liking. Makes me wonder how much compliance a full blown low trail Jeff Lyon fork or somesuch has compared to the average Riv.

No experience w/ disc, but I'm guessing running fat tires tubeless @ low PSI compensates a bit for the overbuilt nature of disc forks.

I remember Matt Chester talking about why he preferred rim brakes.. something to the effect of disc use stressing the frame. Pretty sure Grant mentions this issue as well. Have always wondered if this is just a convenient data point for folks in the rim brake camp, or if it's a serious thing that would cause frame issues down the road.

[Garth]

Here's another perspective on the pro/con .

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/disc-brakes.html


  The more I acquaint myself with disc brakes pros and cons I can see where GP is coming from in not offering discs. For the intended uses and ride qualities of a frame of his design yeah, I can where there would be some changes required that do not agree with this.  It's just not as simple as slapping on disc mounts as is.

  So the merits/demerits of disc brakes along is not the matter here, it's "are they suitable for intention GP has for his frame designs ?" 

   Well gee, who am I to question what someone else intends ?   Laughable !...... utterly Laughable !!!

[Patrick Moore]

That's not a bad article, though some of both the pro's and con's are nit-picky and not of real importance in real life -- eg, on the "pro" side, that you can slap reflective tap on your rims' braking surface. Sure, I choose my brakes based on reflective tape; and in fact, the light disc rims don't bother with brake tracks. (And not all light disc rims are carbon fiber, tho' this has me wondering about some nice carbon fiber 29er rims -- lessee, 40 mm wide, 375 grams ...). And on the "con" side, harder to maintain and more complex than rim or drum brakes. Not quite; cantis, at least for the masses? Getting the effing little cable hook re-attached on V brakes? Drum brakes? Drum brakes?

Also: " they're only slightly less maddening than a chain case to remove and replace a wheel.  I've yet to do so without a work stand and tools, since the caliper has required re-centering every time the rear wheel is replaced.  Rim and drum brakes don't have this problem, and they can be used with existing framesets."

What world is he from? That's bogus! At least, it applies only to an alternative universe. It's easier to remove and re-install a wheel with all the discs I've used, than with cantis or V brakes and this with rear-ward facing dropouts, too. True, you need a certain finesse -- you can't just shove the damned thing in anywhichway, but it's certainly no harder than getting a 32 mm tire in between the pads of a caliper brake.

But I do really think that, on the whole, he gives discs their due.

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[Grant @ Rivendell]

There must be some fork bounciness, but it's hard to isolate the effects of forks, tires, wheels, weight distribution, and front-center dimensions when you're riding over bumps. Also, there's the tremendous but usually neglected in "technical discussions" effects of rider-joint-springs. It's been my experience (so, I believe) that the rider and the tire are the two most important shock absorbers. I believe that so much that it seems almost insulting to even state it. If yoiur position allows relaxed arms (not under compression from too-low bars), then they'll soak up tons. If the tires are fat enough and soft enough, they'll soak up lots more. If your wheels are more ahead and behind you than beneath you, the bumps won't affect you as much. But mostly, joints and tires. To look for cush in steel forks...it's like looking for protein in broccoli when there's fried cow right there next to it.
A suspension fork can add an extra measure of shock soakup, but by its presence can also lead to less effective joint use, or harder tires, or worse technique. It may not, but it can.
At some point it's useful to pan back and ask how heinous an enemy a bump is, and what kind of artillary's needed to tame it.In a race, the more stuff you have, the faster you'll go. Not in a race, you have the fantastic luxury of slowing down and navigating btw the bumps at a speed that allows them to be a fun but not threatening part.
I don't have everything all figured out for the world, I just know what my preferences are, and I'm not dumb enough to think everybody's like me or should be...or like Rivendell. Plus, there's so much variety out there, and it's fun to try it. From a totally purely RBW business tactical approach--- which never kicks in entirely without being diluted by emotion and gut and laughs—all I can say  is that it's unlikely we'll put shocks or disc brakes on single bikes. Imagine the fear it would trigger at Specialized, Trek, and Giant if we did! (That is a joke).
The bike industry is suffering these years, and the biggies feel it most. Naturally they will grab any opportunity to grow or strengthen and not appear behind the times. If one of the three does something, the others will, too. Rivendell's not at that point. We have a few super fun things coming up in the next year or so, but they aren't conventional innovations or tech makeovers. (Our form of "innovation" is something like the welded-in lifter handle.) Last night, Mark, Roman, Will, and I talked for 20 minutes mostly after hours about moving things on the Cheviot 3mm on one size, four on another, to make a difference that nobody will ever notice except maybe Mark. We do tiny things!

[Patrick Moore]

Speaking of discs versus calipers, I've read in more than one place that discs are useful on racing bikes because they stop faster and therefore let you go faster into a corner before you have to slow down, so that you can negotiate corners faster than with calipers. 

I daresay that hydraulic discs will jam a wheel still with less finger pressure than any caliper, but so what -- when you have a tiny rubber patch, what advantage does a more powerful "squeeze" make?

Note that I'm not figuring carbon fiber rims into the equation here; i daresay that, since calipers work less well on cf rims than on aluminum ones, discs on road bikes with cf rims may well be useful in that regard. But consider the question asked for bikes with aluminum rims.

So, is this bogus, or is it true?

I think discs have advantages over calipers that make them useful for certain types of riding in certain conditions, but I am very skeptical of this claim.

[Jon BALER]

The tour de France made history today with disc brakes... But my rosco Bubbe v2 has been great with caliper brakes.

[Garth]

Here is a good discussion about rim and disc brakes . http://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/1092227-braking-stopping-power-question.html

Apparently carbon makes for a poor brake surface for any brake, unless you are an F1 team and have the unlimited funds to make some discs that do work well in F1 cars. The rims the pros use today are aluminum based and carbon fused on the exterior to all but the braking surface. So you get lighter rims than alloy alone and that still have an alloy braking surface.

While the bike industry would love for pros to adopt their brakes, many have tried them but prefer rim brakes. When it comes to riders safety they should always be the ones making the call. So both brakes have their place for certain riders and conditions. For many though the idea of adding signifigant weight to the bike trumps the endless argument of better/worse. Yes, for them it is signifigant. And then there are still some safety concerns of the roters since they are so sharp and the possiblility of a deep cut, different than a chainring.

Aa for the perceived power and race strategy, riding a bike is really an art. It's not just what you ride but how you ride it, your intuition of how and when and why to take corners let alone everything else about it. Each is unique, Such is life ! Bravo !

Winning a sprint has nothing to do with brakes of course, and what you see on TV of close-ups of Kittels discs makes for good advertising and all, as does the whole race. But discs are pereived as "new and hot", look, "our hero Marcel rides discs, buy some". Human see human copy .... that's the theory at least.... ahahahahahaa !

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks.

Gawd, this all-over-the-field "discussion" makes me happy to be on the rbw list.

Upshot of all the back-and-forth: discs (hydraulic? Not said) modulate better -- maybe.

I'm mot convinced. (Note origonal question.)

Sent from my iPhone

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[Matt B.]

On the subject of fork flex, as Grant has often pointed out, a good advantage of traditional disc (rim) brakes is that because a steel fork does not have to be so stiff, it will bend more easily in a crash and potentially save the frame.  As it happens I took advantage of this feature with my Quickbeam a few weeks ago on the local bikeway when a tree fell across the path*, landing directly on my front wheel and crushing it and bending my fork. The frame is fine as far as I can tell, whereas if I had a disc fork, who knows. I have bent forks before from more typical crash scenarios, so this flexibility does come in handy now and then :)

Matt


*yes I did have audible warning that this was happening (tree falling) but by the time I figured out what the hell that cracking sound was, it was too late. 

[Joe Bernard]

The problem with carbon isn't money but heat. Alloy rims and discs operate best when cool, then fade as heat builds up between pad and braking surface on a long descent. Carbon is reversed: They're crap when cold, then come in as heat is generated by high-horsepower F1 cars or MotoGP bikes. A bicycle doesn't have enough weight or velocity to keep a carbon brake at operating temperature.

[Mark in Beacon]

Whoa, dude. You need to play Lotto.

[iamkeith]

Jeesh, Matt! Hope you're ok, and hope it's just the fork that needs to be replaced.

I guess I'd completely overlooked that part of the argument for less-stiff blades, but now it makes sense.

Otherwise, I think this might be one of the few places where I disagree with Grant, and believe that there is a ride quality advantage too. Perhaps not "suspension," but definitely the ability to absosorb vibration or "chatter."

I can visibly see it happen on my clem (hunqapillar) and '93 MB-1 forks. I'd like to buy a go-pro and make a video like this, to illustrate:

https://youtu.be/uo-bastzh7c

[Matt B.]

Thanks Keith. Yeah I was a little banged up but amazingly nothing serious, definitely lucky.  I'm 90% sure the frame is fine / not bent, but guess I won't know until I can ride it again (once I get a straight fork).

Keep the rubber side down and watch out for aggressive trees man :)


Matt

[Max S]

"In a study of Americans ages 20-34, occupational therapists found that men younger than 30 have significantly weaker hand grips than their counterparts in 1985 did. The same was true of women ages 20-24, according to the study published online by the Journal of Hand Therapy a few months back."

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/06/13/481590997/millennials-may-be-losing-their-grip

Just sayin'. :-P

- Max in A2

[Mitch Harris]

Right, you hope they're not comparing discs to rim-braking on carbon brake tracks where rim-braking is not at it's best. 

I've noticed I do brake later into steep high speed road turns on my disc road bike, turns that require coming down from 50 mph to 20pmh on my canyon descents, but the biggest difference in late braking is with wider tires. When I compare are tires (41mm Baby Shoe Pass EL) with brazed-on Raids on A23 rims vs. TRP Hy/Rds 160 rotors with Modolo levers on Pacenti TL28 rims, I brake somewhat later with discs. But I noticed braking much later into these high speed turns on my most recent canyon descents on 47-48 Switch Back Hill EL tires. I'm guessing I'd also brake later on rim brakes with SBH tires too--they fit on my bike with Raids but not under the fenders so I may have to remove fenders to try it sometime.

In general I don't see a lot of difference in braking quality or power in these two road set-ups, rim vs. disc, except that the same amount of braking requires somewhat less hand effort with discs. Both seem to do really well with high speed descending on pavement with heavy braking for tight switchbacks. Hand effort seems really good to me with the Raids too, much less hand effort than required with the regular old single pivot Record brakes I'm used to. But hand effort is still noticeably less with discs. 

But the big difference in late braking for me has been with increasing tire width. This surprises me because I was doing these same 50mph to 20mph turns on 25mm tires with no complaints before I started riding fatter tires on the road. I'd hear descending was faster on fat tires and I would think maybe that's just for riders who aren't fast descenders. But I think the difference is there because I brake noticeably laters on 42mm tires compared to 25mm and then on 48mm tires the late braking is really noticeable. I think the reason for the late braking is probably two things (?): there is more grip with the larger contact patch, but also wider tires soak up more road irregularity and surface roughness through the turn and on narrower tires I feel like I need to get speed down a little earlier in preparation so I can manage that roughness leaned over while with the wider tires I'm more ok leaning the bike over and trusting the tires to handle more of that roughness than narrow tires can on their own. 

The late braking difference in lower hand effort seems to come from the fact that I notice I use progressive stages of hand effort when I scrub a lot of speed (50 down to 20). BTW, all of this braking I do on descents is from the hoods.  On rim brake Raids, I squeeze and lose a lot of speed, but then there is a harder squeeze I have to ramp up to with more hand strength to get down to the safe 20mph to go through the sharp sweeper turn. Some people might do this all with one progressively firmer squeeze but for me it does feel like two separate squeeze--one big firm one then a really hard one.  On disc Hy/Rds I don't require that second stage of harder. One stage of firm hand pressure on Hy/Rds takes me all the way down to 20mph. This simpler process lets me brake later I think, or at least that seems one likely explanation, all else being equal. (The old school Record single pivots handle the same 50mph down to 20mph turns just fine but it takes noticeably more hand pressure than the Raids.)

--Mitch 

[Clayton]

The most amazing bicycle horror story yet... Glad you are OK. 

Clay

[Patrick Moore]

Very interesting. So, upshot, at least per Mitch's experience: if you have sufficiently wide tires, the discs, at least hydraulics, can stop easier -- and "better" in this sense -- on road bikes with aluminum rims by requiring less concentration and "technique" in hard slowdowns at high speed. I wonder at which tire width this becomes significant? Probably at not much under 40 mm?

On Mon, Jul 3, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Mitch Harris <mitch....@gmail.com> wrote:

Right, you hope they're not comparing discs to rim-braking on carbon brake tracks where rim-braking is not at it's best. 

I've noticed I do brake later into steep high speed road turns on my disc road bike, turns that require coming down from 50 mph to 20pmh on my canyon descents, but the biggest difference in late braking is with wider tires. When I compare are tires (41mm Baby Shoe Pass EL) with brazed-on Raids on A23 rims vs. TRP Hy/Rds 160 rotors with Modolo levers on Pacenti TL28 rims, I brake somewhat later with discs. But I noticed braking much later into these high speed turns on my most recent canyon descents on 47-48 Switch Back Hill EL tires. I'm guessing I'd also brake later on rim brakes with SBH tires too--they fit on my bike with Raids but not under the fenders so I may have to remove fenders to try it sometime.

In general I don't see a lot of difference in braking quality or power in these two road set-ups, rim vs. disc, except that the same amount of braking requires somewhat less hand effort with discs. Both seem to do really well with high speed descending on pavement with heavy braking for tight switchbacks. Hand effort seems really good to me with the Raids too, much less hand effort than required with the regular old single pivot Record brakes I'm used to. But hand effort is still noticeably less with discs. 

But the big difference in late braking for me has been with increasing tire width. This surprises me because I was doing these same 50mph to 20mph turns on 25mm tires with no complaints before I started riding fatter tires on the road. I'd hear descending was faster on fat tires and I would think maybe that's just for riders who aren't fast descenders. But I think the difference is there because I brake noticeably laters on 42mm tires compared to 25mm and then on 48mm tires the late braking is really noticeable. I think the reason for the late braking is probably two things (?): there is more grip with the larger contact patch, but also wider tires soak up more road irregularity and surface roughness through the turn and on narrower tires I feel like I need to get speed down a little earlier in preparation so I can manage that roughness leaned over while with the wider tires I'm more ok leaning the bike over and trusting the tires to handle more of that roughness than narrow tires can on their own. 

The late braking difference in lower hand effort seems to come from the fact that I notice I use progressive stages of hand effort when I scrub a lot of speed (50 down to 20). BTW, all of this braking I do on descents is from the hoods.  On rim brake Raids, I squeeze and lose a lot of speed, but then there is a harder squeeze I have to ramp up to with more hand strength to get down to the safe 20mph to go through the sharp sweeper turn. Some people might do this all with one progressively firmer squeeze but for me it does feel like two separate squeeze--one big firm one then a really hard one.  On disc Hy/Rds I don't require that second stage of harder. One stage of firm hand pressure on Hy/Rds takes me all the way down to 20mph. This simpler process lets me brake later I think, or at least that seems one likely explanation, all else being equal. (The old school Record single pivots handle the same 50mph down to 20mph turns just fine but it takes noticeably more hand pressure than the Raids.)

--Mitch 

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[Ruben Flores]

I am going to throw in one more factor into this discussion (or at least I did not notice it in previous posts). On occasion I ride with a very experienced (past national champion) nearing 80 years old. He said as he has aged his hand strength has weakened and he must brake sooner into downhill corners. With discs he can return to his "normal" braking points and over all is not as fatigued in his hands and wrists. I am not saying yay or nay, just describing a specific situation.

On Wednesday, June 21, 2017 at 8:09:11 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

I'm putting this in a new thread, because I have some questions. Note: I'm not disagreeing, I'm asking because I want to know more. 

Clayton said, in the Rivs On Block thread:

- More margin betw. rim and brake to adjust for rub. Disc brakes usually have much tighter clearances and make it a much more fiddly affair to get rid of rub (applies mostly to hydros)

- Typically lighter weight

[...]

- Pads tend to last longer

#1: I agree that this is very true for mechanical discs, but for hydraulics? I thought that pads for hydraulics allowed more gap than those for mechanicals, at least once-sided-pull mechanicals. For me, this isn't merely academic; it may influence my choice of mechanicals over hydraulics one day.

#2: Yes, calipers are lighter, but then disc-specific rims can be much lighter than rim brake rims, at least in the wider sizes.

#3: I've read that this is true; I've also read the opposite (recently, in a review of some disc setup -- Bike Radar? Which one is true?

I do know that my Kool Stop salmons seem to last years if not decades.

[masmojo]

Bill, like you I have a box of old parts, but I am old and the pile is starting to dwindle. If I don't have the right stem I can go get on the internet, ebay or whatevewhatever. The problem is I have a box of 20+ 1 1/8" stems that I could cull from for just about any other build I do! So, it's a bit annoying to go back to the well for a stem when could've just pulled one from the wood pile.
True, if your Jones truss fork goes down, you will need to get one built OR you could just replace it with a fork you have around if the steerer is long enough. Point is the Jones forks use a rather mundane 1 1/8" threadless steerer, a 1" steerer is getting to the point of being proprietary.

Another log on the fire & it's all for naught, because no one here is racing; regarding disc brakes; although they are heavier, (as some have pointed out) the rim can be lighter and that weight is shifted to the hub area where it has less effect on acceleration & deceleration. Additionally, the mechanism is low on the frame & fork which lowers the center of gravity. Not taking sides one whether one is better then the other technically, but I no longer avoid disc brakes as I once did & I have disc brake bikes that are 10 years old, they are far beyond a new fangled contrivance. Lastly, any future advancements will be in disc brakes (not Cantis, caliper or V brakes) which will only solidify their ubiquitousness.

[Ash A]

I feel much less finger, wrist and forearm fatigue with flatbar (i.e. albatross or choco) levers as compared to brifters.

In spite of the fact that the road bike (campy Veloce brifters + caliper brakes) is 10 lbs lighter than my Riv (Albatross bars, cheap levers, cheap/horrible cantis), my hands feel they are done for the day after an hour of downhill ride. That's not a problem I have when I cruise down the same mountain on Appaloosa. The air drag might be a factor too, but more ergonomic brake lever position is a bigger reason as far as I can tell.

Squeezing those brifters never feel as comfortable or efficient.

[William!]

Apologies for resurrecting such a stale thread with a giant post, please feel free to ignore while I add yet another two cents to the discussion…

The reason I've always been attracted to Rivendell bikes is their resistance to the general trend of making bikes more complicated then they need to be. So much of "progress" with bikes (and with stuff in general) is about applying technology for technology's sake, making bikes complicated, expensive and generally worse to ride in the name of performance or "efficiency" or whatever. Before I discovered Rivendell, I mostly built and rode old bikes for this reason. But of course, not all new technology is bad. Sometimes new technologies come along and they really do make riding better. My general rule of thumb is, it's better if it makes things simpler. 

For me the perfect example is riding with dynamos wheels. They are new-fangled, technically more complicated, more advanced. And you do deal with some extra complexity during your wheel/bike build. But after that, you never have to worry about your lights again. For folks that ride at night, a bike with generator lights is far simpler. It feels freeing, it feels like less to worry about, the way a bike is supposed to feel. I sometimes wish dynamo hubs were easier to take apart and service, but in practice they last plenty long and like most sealed hubs the bearings rarely fail.

So what about disc brakes? I've owned bikes with disc brakes before, but they were always special purpose bikes like tandems or cargo bikes that needed tons of stopping power. I was never happy with how fussy they seemed, but I did like how well they worked in the rain. They seemed like they primarily belonged on special purpose bikes, and I never considered putting them on my daily driver.  It seemed like disc brake technology, driven by racers and extreme mountain bikers, were chasing things I didn't care about: theoretical stopping power and "modulation", weight savings, etc. Meanwhile, they were ignoring things I did care about by heedlessly making bikes more complex: lines to bleed, new tools to own, and an insane parade of new frame and hub "innovations" that promised obsolescence was just around the corner.

A few things convinced me to put disc brakes on my "normal" bike. One, I was in a wreck where stopping distance was the primary factor in me walking away OK. I knew that in the rain with cantilever brakes the result would have been different (which isn't to say disc brakes alone would have saved me). It rains all winter in Portland, and that experience had me spooked enough that I started thinking seriously about disc brakes for my commute. Two, the aforementioned wreck ruined the fork and buckled the down tube and top tube on my Atlantis. When I decided to repair it, I had a once in a lifetime (hopefully) opportunity to change the braking system at minimal extra cost. Three, there finally seemed to be some decent, no-nonsense brake calipers on the market. The Paul Klampers were particularly appealing. They are made by a company that I trust to provide support and replacement parts for the life of the bike. They prioritize simplicity in their design. They are unabashedly mechanical. You can completely take apart and re-assemble them with basic tools in a few minutes. And, in the name of dependability, they are wonderfully overbuilt, just like my Atlantis. It'd be a stretch to say the Klampers are designed for normal people (as their price belies), but they are the closest thing I've seen so far. So, with some reservations, I decided to go for it. But I wondered, would it be an improvement on a bike I loved dearly that already braked just fine? Would they make my bike simpler or more complex?

The answer for me is a mixed bag. Good disc brakes do make bikes simpler in meaningful ways. They are things technophile complexity-hawkers never talk about. Your bike and especially your rims stay far cleaner with disc brakes, so when you stop to change a flat you don't end up with filthy hands. That's a big deal, especially if you ever ride for practical transportation! Your rims don't wear our after a particularly hard wet season. You don't have to worry about stones in your pads or riding when a wheel is slightly out of true. You don't have to disengage the brakes or deflate to remove a wheel with a plump tire. With the Klampers at least, pad adjustment is easier than any brake system I have owned (which is important because you'll probably adjust them more often than rim brakes). Klampers have two big wheels you can turn with your fingers. It's more intuitive than adjusting brake shoes and it doesn't take any tools. Last but not least, disc brakes really do work better – not theoretically better but honest real-world better – in the rain. All these advantages are ones that make riding a bike nicer, simpler, more fun for just about anyone who rides a bike. Not performance-oriented gear heads, but normal folks who want to just ride.

However, there are also a bunch of everyday problems with disc brakes. Again, not stuff people usually talk about. Stuff that will be a nuisance for most people and a total bummer for some. Number one, reinstalling the wheel is harder. You have to align the disc into the very narrow gap between the pads. I have a friend who got a new commuter bike with disc brakes and the first time she got a flat she couldn't get the rear wheel back on without taking it to a shop. She's no newbie, she's changed flats before living in canti-world, but aligning the rotor into its tiny slot while holding back the derailler cage and getting into the dropouts was just too much. Her's were hydraulic disc brakes, and sometimes with those you also have to wedge something in between the pads to push them to back out far enough to fit the rotor. Could component makers make this easier? Maybe add a quick release function so it's easier to get the rotor between the pads? I'm not a component designer, but the point is I don't think the industry is trying to do these things. The goal isn't simplicity, it's lighter calipers or integration with the latest drivetrain fad or some other such nonsense.

Number two, when you reinstall the wheel you typically have to do some fine tuning or the pads will rub slightly. Ideally anyone who rides a bike should be able to fix a flat themselves, but now they have to learn extra things and take an extra 5 minutes on each flat and boy is it a pain to get the pads to stop rubbing when you don't have a stand or a friend to hold the bike up while you spin the wheel and adjust the pads. There are some little tricks you can use but none of them are intuitive and it's just that much more to learn. Hydraulic disc brakes also claim to be adjustment-free but in my experience that just means you can't adjust them and they rub all the same. At least the Klampers make adjustments easy. Still, I can't help but wonder if brake makers could make this more practical if they were focused on the needs of normal riders. The industry probably thinks it has already solved this with thru-axels but you can count me suspicious. A brake system that demands a whole new frame and fork design (not to mention rack placement), a new hub design, new skewers – that doesn't seem simpler. What will happen when the industry moves on to some other standard?

Number three, you can't keep an eye on pad wear - to check it you generally have to remove the wheel. I don't see any reason why someone couldn't design a caliper where you could easily inspect the pads, but no one has. Perhaps because they are all busy chasing performance and the next thing? With Klampers, you can just barely see the pads from one angle but you'll probably have to get off the bike to see the front pads and you'll have to flip the bike over to see the rear. Perhaps some folks are not going to pay attention to pad wear no matter how obvious you make it, but it seems to me that hiding them away makes the bike more complex and maybe even more dangerous. If you can't see it, it's harder to check it, harder to understand it, harder to explain it – it turns the whole brake caliper into a mystery braking box instead of a simple machine.

--

More than ever I feel that Rivendell is both right and wrong to resist the disc brake trend. I believe disc brakes probably could make bikes simpler and more joyful but for an industry that pursues all the wrong things. And perhaps someday they will. More and more commuter bikes have them, and perhaps we will see the emergence of a new component line that priorities simplicity and maintainability over theoretical performance and weight savings. Will they be able to do that without inventing yet another frame standard? Will we ever see the emergence of a classic, timeless disc brake design that will still be available and work just as well 30 years down the line? One can only hope.

[lum gim fong]

Roadside maintenance easier on rim or disc brakes?

[William!]

Hard to say one is easier than the other. Fixing a flat is harder with discs but gets your hands a lot less dirty (a big deal for me). Adjustments with discs are somewhat easier (with Klampers anyway) but you do it somewhat more often. Replacing disc pads is simpler but requires taking the wheel off and pads may wear out faster (this seems to depend a lot on riding conditions and pad material).

[Patrick Moore]

I think it was you who shared with me the photo of your wonderfully repaired, disc-equipped, and repainted Atlantis -- as good as new and then some, IMO.

I see no reason why Rivendell might stick with calipers; but I don't think at all that adding a disc brake off road model to their line would compromise their principles of simplicity of means to effective ends. In my own experience, discs are superior for some conditions.

I've used discs now for thousands of miles on 3 dirt road bikes -- very sandy and gravely soil, if that makes a difference; I've also used every type of rim brake except some of the very rare exotic ones like the self energizing types. Hell, I've not only used stirrup brakes (I wonder how these would work, well set up, with Kool Stop pads?) but what I am sure is a very rare and exotic hybrid system joining Bowden cables to the stirrups. 

From this experience, I conclude that discs have 2 important advantages, one a great one in dirty conditions: no pads to collect grit and wear down your rims; and two, not particular to dirt road riding: they allow very light but strong rims, while adding weight near the center of the wheel.

A third, less important (to me) benefit is that they allow easy swaps between wheels with rims of different diameter, if you know how to install the rotor between the pads. Downside: You have to carefully adjust the rotors to match the same pairs of pads, but this isn't that hard to do with shims. I might one day buy a second, 650B X 80 mm wheelset to augment my current 50/60 X 700C one; I'll be able to do this pretty easily.

Downsides: rub: IME, rub is more frequent than with pads of any rim brake I've used, except for pads of very, very cheap stamped steel calipers and very, very cheap V brakes, where pad rub can't be permanently removed. OTOH, rub is very light and more annoying than an impediment. OTOH again, I've set up BB7s so that the front pads rub only very occasionally (the rears don't seem to at all), and this only after exceptionally dusty rides, and then the rubbing goes away after a mile or 2 of pavement; or after a thorough soaking; after which the rub goes away when it all dries out. Again, just enough rub to make a light noise; annoying, not slowing.

By the way, in the recent BQ, Jan speaks of "ineffective" Avid discs; not true at all IME, and I've installed and used at least 4 pairs. The BB7s are no more powerful than a good pair of double pivot calipers with Kool Stops, or the IRD cantis, Kool Stops, set up by Rivendell on my Sam Hill(these were the best brakes in very respect bar none that I've ever used), but they're easily as good as or better than any single pivot or centerpull I've used, and I've used many, many, many of these. I use 160 mm rotors f and r.

There is a trick to setting up BB7s: you have to attach the cable when the arm is partially moved along its arc, not when the arm is entirely slack. This removes a wee bit of torque, but allows much better pad clearance; and again, braking power is as described.

After much research and listening to others, if I replace my ~2015 BB7 road models, it will be with Spyres and not with any hydraulic system.

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****************************************************************************************

Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?

[Patrick Moore]

I mean; I see no reason why Rivendell shouldn't stick to rim brakes ...

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:47 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote: [...] I see no reason why Rivendell might stick with calipers; 

[Patrick Moore]

I personally find removing and re-installing wheels roadside at least as easy with discs as with calipers or cantis or V brakes, perhaps easier. I'd call this one an easy draw.

[Steve Palincsar]

Do you have to adjust pads when you R&R the wheels?

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Patrick Moore]

If your hands are getting dirty from the rims when you remove your wheels, then you are collecting a lot of aluminum dust on the rims -- not at all good! Even if the dirt were only road grit, still, that has obvious implications for you rims' life.

I've probably fixed more roadside flats than any 10 (I might even say, any 100) other listers, given our goatheads, but 99 times out of 100 in dry conditions, and I never got my hands dirty from rim dirt, only from the usual tire dirt. 

Patrick Moore, who is very quickly losing his knack for roadside patching because of Orange Seal!

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:32 PM, William! <william.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Patrick Moore]

Not me, not with discs, as long as you don't slam the pads when inserting the rotor, or bash the rotor against a convenient rock or tree, and bend it. I've had to adjust V brakes and cantis and single pivots more often in such circs than discs. This is my experience, and I've learned to insert the rotor very carefully.

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[Eric Daume]

I think hydraulic disc brakes would address most of your concerns:

- the pads basically stay centered, so wheel removal is easy

- once they're set up, maintenance basically involves changing the pads when needed (this takes about one minute). Yes, I guess you could bleed them every year, but so far I haven't seen the need.

- strong, progressive, etc. 

I bought some TRP Spykes, hoping that with their dual pad actuation they would be as good as my mid level Shimano hydraulics. They're nice, but the hydraulics just feel so much better. Sometimes I find myself braking just to enjoy the feeling of braking, which is pretty silly.

That being said, I really like V brakes as well, especially if I'm changing cockpit around quite a bit.

Eric

--

[Eric Norris]

I don’t have any disk-equipped bikes. I rode one a few times before deciding not to buy it (for reasons that had nothing to do with the brakes.)

One downside that would affect me is that the wheels would not interchange with any of my existing bikes. I can move around wheels in my existing stable a bit (I have 120mm, 126mm, and 130mm-spaced bikes with speeds between 5 and 9), but the disk wheels wouldn’t work on any of my existing bikes.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

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[Justin August]

Love my disc brakes. Low level Deore Shimano hydros. I’ve never done anything to them except change the pads - they came on the bike and I’ve swapped bars and wheelsizes and forks an never had an issue. Definitely the best brakes for any sort of “terrain” riding. I’m very happy the hydros came with the bike. Otherwise I’d have gone down the rabbit hole of mechanicals and finding “the best” ones. These are great and while I might choose Klampers on a more road or touring focused bike I’m not there yet.

-Justin

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[Patrick Moore]

Eric: question about hydraulics versus cable. I've read in more than one place opinions by experienced disc brake users that, when it comes to pad rub and adjustment to avoid it, there is little difference between hydraulic and at least the better cable systems (I include BB7s in this last category). Has this been your experience?

For my own purposes, the simplicity and trailside fixability of cable systems is a very big plus -- tho' I realize that having to stop trailside to fix a hydraulic system is a long-shot. I have also found that my 4 BB7 -- perhaps 1 was BB5 -- setups worked well enough that I have no real desire to improve them; the only time I tried a hydraulic system -- my nd neighbor's new mtb -- I found that a wee tweak with 2 fingers almost sent me over the bar.

I will add that, with BB7s, the pads stay centered when you remove, and when you replace, the wheel. I will add, also, that Jan's deprecation of BB7s in the last BQ is entirely wrong -- IME, as above.

So, the only reason for me, I stress "me", to swap would be pad adjustment and avoiding rub. In your experience, do hydraulic systems have fewer rub problems than cable systems? Your data point will be useful.

Thanks.

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[William!]

I expect your difference in experience has less to do with the caliper (BB7s vs Klampers are similar designs) and more to do with your dropouts or perhaps your skewers. The problem is caused by slight differences in how the wheel is seated before and after you remove the wheel. With rim brakes, those slight differences wouldn't matter so much, but with discs the tolerances are so low (that's the whole point after all) that even a slight change in alignment will require you to reseat the wheel and/or recenter the brake caliper. I use Pitluck locking skewers (city life) and I wonder if that explains part of my difficulty – QR's would probably be easier to create a consistent seating. And perhaps some dropouts are better than others for this (thru axel dropouts being an obvious example). Finally, it could depend on your brake levers and how much deadband you are trying to achieve in your adjustment. Backing the pads off a bit will allow more room for slight changes in alignment.

I've had hydraulic disc brakes on other bikes and they don't address the issue of pad alignment. Where they do help is in adjusting for pad wear. Newish hydraulic calipers with dual pistons have a seal around each piston that is intentionally designed to slip as the pads wear and travel distance increases. This has the effect of managing the deadband so that the pistons and lever always move the same amount before contacting the rotor.  It also means that when you do change the pads you'll need to pry the pistons back to reset them to their fully out positions – otherwise rotor won't fit between the new pads. Without this feature (ie with all mechanical systems), you have to adjust the pads as they wear thin and effectively move further from the rotor. Not a big deal if it's just turning knobs, but it is a thing you have to do. It's worth noting that this isn't unique to disc brakes – you have to adjust rim brakes to compensate for pad wear too – but, less often. Again the system is made more sensitive to adjustments as a direct result of the low tolerances that are a feature of disc brakes.

Best,

William

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