On tire supple-itude

[ian m]

Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am confused by how this topic is often discussed. With how BQ and Compass/Grand Bois talk about their tires it seems as though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple tires vs. non-supple tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their tires vs. the rest. But what is even being discussed when we talk about suppleness? Am I confused in thinking that there has long been differing levels of casing quality with TPI being a good indicator of suppleness (and why doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on their tires)?

It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple, from maybe the steel belted kevlar enforced urban assault Schwalbe to the hand sewn from the finest silk undies race only FMBs. In that continuum you have your clincher and your tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI and your puncture-proof belt. But where in the continuum are they?

I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer. My only Riv bike is a Clem and I love it. But I know and appreciate quality bicycle components and, as they say, am too poor to buy cheap things. While the rising interest in wide tires in the performance bicycling world will mean more options for us balloon bikers, that also means more companies making all sorts of unverifiable claims about their tires. I remember when I switched from Schwalbe Delta Cruisers to Clement 120TPI USH tires on a previous touring bike. I was not let down. But would I notice the same change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to Compass tires?  I would like to upgrade from the bottom of the line wire bead Schwalbe's currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) to a lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the supple-itude?

- Perpetually Confused by Marketing

[Deacon Patrick]

Easy. Ride washboard. The lower the dental bill the more supple the tire. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

A recent BQ claimed to show that TPI doesn't necessarily correlate with suppleness; apparently there are other factors that make Compass tires supple with relatively low TPI counts.

In my experience, one element that correlates (I don't say "causes") suppleness is light weight: when a tire casing is light and thin, the tires seem to roll better.

On the other hand, tires with thick, heavy sidewalls in particular, and -- less so, but still so -- thick treads, as with puncture belts, have felt relatively sluggish. I say "relatively" because some of Schwalbe's belted tires -- the Big Apple and the Kojak -- in fact roll pretty well despite their reinforced tread.

OTOH, I used to ride 559 X 32 Paselas, non-Tourguard, which weighed 240 grams consistently on a mail scale, and these rode pretty well, as well as, say, the Kojaks. I remember once adding Mr Tuffy's to my Paselas, riding 30 miles rt to work and back, and immediately removing them -- so noticeable did they add drag to the tire. (Note that these Paselas, no longer available apparently, had suppleness and low price on their side; against them was fragility and great sensitivity to pressure.

The best tires I've used to date, and my current defaults, are the Compass 559 X 32 (actual 28-29) Elk Pass -- 175 grams each! -- and the 622 X 50 Schwalbe Furious Fred -- 360 honest mail scale grams each! Both these tires, the FFs run tubeless for added effect, are very noticeably easier to pedal in a given gear in given conditions at given cadences; I find myself riding, on pavement, in road gears on the FFs, instead of gearing down as with the (again, relatively nice) Big Apples.

As for fragility: well, yes, every benefit comes with a defect; I'd not ride either tire in sharp gravel. But for smooth or light gravel and firm dirt, even the Elk Pass does fine; and with Orange Seal in the tubes (EPs) or, sans tubes, in the tire carcase (FFs) I blithely ride amongst the goatheads with near impunity.

Really, after the frame (fit, feel), the quality of the tire makes the bike; and really, for me, the EP and the FF have literally transformed respectively my paved road and dirt road riding (again, modern sealants let me use them with impunity).

Lastly: It has been some years since I used Jack Brown Greens, which, IIRC, were as far as ride quality goes, on the level of non-tourguard Paselas. The EPs and the FFs are much better.

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[Deacon Patrick]

The supple, all road tire I ride and put on my daughter's 650b Clementines for all road/trail bikepacking is Schwalbe's Thunderburt (no snakebite or other protection). Rides like a dream. They very much noticed (and love) the difference from the stock tires. We ordered from Germany and that brought the price down to something reasonable per tire.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Jeremy Till]

There are certainly many variations on supple out there.  TPI is not always a good guide for suppleness because there is variation in the number of plies (layers) in a tire and there is no standardization in whether or not TPI refers to the threads in an individual layer or the cumulative TPI of all of the layers (e.g. one 180 TPI layer vs. 3x60 TPI layers).  Jan has also said that there is variation in the thread material which affects suppleness, which I think is what distinguishes the "extralight" Compass/GB tires from the "standard" ones.  There's also the thickness of the rubber and any puncture resistant material, coated vs. non-coated sidewalls, etc.

I too would like to see more discussion of the vagaries of suppleness among the sub-compass tires, and how other factors might affect ride quality for those of us interested more in compromise (puncture resistance, long wear, price) rather than suppleness above all.  For instance, the sidewalls of my Schwalbe Kojaks feel very supple, on par with high-end road tires, but the tread area is very stiff (yet thin), probably due to whatever puncture resistant belt they put in there.  Do the supple sidewalls or stiff tread play more of a role in its bump absorption and/or rolling resistance? 

I applaud Jan et. al's efforts at testing and quantifying a lot of this stuff but the OP is right that it can be hard to figure out if you're considering something other than super-supple tires.  In my experience it often comes down to how a tire feels in hand; how easy it to flex the sidewalls and tread.  Floppier tires are more likely to roll better and be smoother, but you're probably giving something up in price and puncture resistance.  Until you've felt and tried a bunch of tires it can be hard to know where the balance lies for you, and even then it can be hard to know before purchasing a new tire, unless you have the chance to feel it. 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/22/2016 06:27 PM, ian m wrote:

But would I notice the same change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to Compass tires?  I would like to upgrade from the bottom of the line wire bead Schwalbe's currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) to a lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the supple-itude?

Ride on chipseal and badly alligatored pavement, something with a nasty coarse surface that looks like this



or this



You'll feel the difference right away.

[Tim Gavin]

From my experience:

Solid rubber tire = 0

Super cheapo heavy tire (aka stock tires on box-store bikes) = 1

Studded, heavy (Nokian W160) = 2

Studded, huge (Dillinger 5) = 3

Huge (Ground Control 4.6) = 4

Armored, heavy (Schwalbe Marathon) = 5

Armored (Pasela PT/TG) = 6

Stout (Jack Brown, Ruffy Tuffy) = 7

Light (Super Moto, ITS MK2) = 8

Supple (Thunder Burt, Compass, Grand Bois, Pari-Moto) = 9

And I reserve 10 for those hand-sewn 320 tpi tubulars, though I've never ridden them.

On this scale, each increment in rating indicates a noticeable difference in ride quality and rolling resistance.  I.e., if I ride a "7" and an "8" back to back, I'll say "nice!".  If I ride a "7" and a "9" back to back, I'll say "wow!".

-Tim

[John A. Bennett]

I've had the same pair(s) of Schwalbe Marathons on my Saluki and Atlantis for over 5 years. Never had a flat. Never had a tire fail.

They feel fine over every surface, and I don't live in fear of potholes, nails, pointy rocks, broken glass, or switchblades. 

To me, that's the smoothest ride of all.

[olof...@gmail.com]

How much to drift on the side of safety is of course a personal thing, but methinks you´ve got to take some risks in life. I have ridden many pleasurable miles on the Heron Touring with Paselas on bad roads without mishap, but my custom Riv sports Pari-Motos. Just wonderful. Otoh they have alternated with Jack Brown Greens and I must admit that on a good road I can´t notice any difference, that comes on bad roads and trails which also means that it comes with a risk. I´ve had one sidewall fail under me and that was not smooth. Still worth it.

 

To everyone her/his pleasure, but it´s good to know what you are doing. The same with loads and loading.

 

Olof Stroh

Uppsala Sweden

[Lungimsam]

0 the worst - 10 the best:

700c Kenda -5
700c Specialized Armadillo-5
700c Gatorskin-7

650b Swifty-4
650b original Rumpkin-6
650b Marathon Green Guard-8.5
650b Hetre-10
650b Cypress-10
650b Loup Loup-10

[Mark in Beacon]

Patrick--I notice in your photo sets you and the girls are usually on non-paved surfaces. The Thunderburts look to have a pretty decent set of knobs, especially on the edges. How does this affect riding on paved roads and also cornering at speed? Any loss of contact issues, or buzzing? Also, seem to come in a bewildering array of options. Jensen has what appears to be a big sale going on these if they are the same tire.
2.1" Pacestar Liteskin
2.1" Snakeskin, TI Ready
2.25" Pacestar Snakeskin TI Easy

Sheesh.

Does a 2.1 fit under Clem w fenders, or do they come 1.9?

On the more general idea of supple tires for a bicycle like the Clementine, I am feeling pretty good with the not quite stock tires on mine (a packing incident led to me getting the stock Kenda in front and a Schwalbe Big Ben in rear) but I do notice the bike does not roll as far as other bikes on the same route. I was initially going to go for the Compass Switchback EL and run them with Orange Seal, as that seems almost as failsafe as an armored tire (and, knock wood, I do not generally get many flats). I'm skeptical that the TBurt treads will work for my mostly paved commute, so I'd like to hear from others who have tried 48-50mm 650B tires for performance.

[Tim Gavin]

I have 26 x 2.1" Thunder Burts (Evo Liteskin) on my '88 Schwinn KOM.  They are surprisingly quiet and fast on pavement, no buzzing.  They are just as quiet and grippy when cornering as the nearly-slick Super Motos.  They fit great under SKS P65 longboards.

I highly recommend Bike-discount.de for all your Schwalbe tire needs.  They have the Evo Liteskin (most supple) version for ~$34 a tire.  

http://www.bike-discount.de/en/search?q=burt

They charge a flat ~$23 shipping fee to the US, so you may want to pad your order with other stuff.  They have excellent prices on anything Shimano (including the non-US Trekking line), as well as B&M dynamo lights.

[Jon Dukeman in the foothills of Colorado]

As I age I think there are two ways to describe comfort...

The comfort you feel from a supple tire and the comfort you feel in the form of peace of mind that you are riding on tires that are very durable and will get you through nasty road conditions flat free, .

You have to pick your priorities and find a balance that makes you happy. 

Twenty five years ago if the tires were skinny and fast, that's all that mattered to me.

Jon

[Deacon Patrick]

Tim,

We have the 2.1 Lightskin Thunder Burts. They measure 2", but have never been inflated over 40psi (mine) or 20psi (theirs).

Where we ride, the paved bits are in the populated areas, so rarely do I take pictures, but yes, we do as much on dirt as possible. There is slightly more noise with my Thunder Burts on my Hunqapillar than my Compass Barlow Passes on my QuickBeam. It is a very quiet tire.

My take on it is its grip (which seems to exceed it's knobby size) comes from its suppleness. It forms to the terrain and grips it beautifully. When we have mud it's usually chunked with decomposed granite rocks (sharp edges), so plenty to grip as you slop through. Grin.

I hope that helps.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Jim Bronson]

I think we've gotten to the point with this discussion that people should just choose a tire according to their preference.

If a smooth, fast ride is a priority for you, ride supple tires.

If longevity and flat resistance are a priority for you, don't ride supple tires.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, ian m <darkg...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Toshi Takeuchi]

The change in tire is very dramatic when going to a supple tire.  You know the road buzz when you ride a mountain bike on pavement?  You change that mountain bike tire to a slick and you go aah!

--Do the same thing from an armored Schwalbe to a GB Hetre and the perceived result is just as dramatic.  Vibrations are gone--you think you are going slow because the road buzz is gone.

It truly is a different world--better is relative, but different for sure.

Toshi in Oakland

[Garth]

   Isn't it funny  . . . .  we all read of people trying out Riv bikes at their HQ and how wonderful they ride .  Notice we don't hear "boy I wish it had supple tires" .

The simple and profound joy of riding a bicycle transcends the make, model or type of tires that are on the bike   .  . . . weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !  

We only make tires a big deal when we turn away from that joy , jaded .  Yet the joy is always present regardless ! 

[Steve Palincsar]

That joy is greatly dimished, overlaid with a veneer of discomfort, when
riding over chipseal or alligatored pavement with tires that make your
teeth clack together and your hands to sting and go numb. Supple tires
help with that.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/23/2016 10:56 AM, olof...@gmail.com wrote:

How much to drift on the side of safety is of course a personal thing, but methinks you´ve got to take some risks in life.

Having a flat tire isn't what you'd call an existential risk.  It's more of a minor irritation.

[Patrick Moore]

Step 1: remove Marathons.

Step 2: Install paper thin and paper light Compass equivalents.

Step 3: Insert 2 to 4 oz, depending on tire volume, of Orange Seal into your tubes.

Step 3: Rejoice in the benefits and pleasures of both worlds.

Patrick Moore, who repeats ad nauseam that he rides lighter-than-Compass Furious Freds in goathadland thanks to Orange Seal.

Actually, I rode unprotected Big Apples in through goathead patches, and they rarely punctured, and rode pretty well for 900 gram (60 X 622) tires.

[Patrick Moore]

Actually, Tim, in my admittedly limited experience, even solid tires can be beaten in the "horrible to ride" contest. I once bought an early '80s Cyclopro mtb at Goodwill. It was shod with some early, heavily belted 1.9" slick, fortified with 1 cm thick thornproof tubes, with the protection augmented by the thickest Mr Tuffys. What an amazingly horrible ride!

By contract, several years ago I resurrected a cheap city bike that had solid tires. These were perhaps 38s, not 50s, but they certainly rolled better than the combination described above -- I was very surprised.

As I reported earlier, I swapped the Avocet city tires on the Dahon to Kojaks. The Kojaks still feel sluggish on 20" wheels compared to 559 or 622 Kojaks, but they are hugely better than the Avocets they replaced, and those Avocets were called "Race something" if IIRC.

[Patrick Moore]

I rode the Race Lite yestiddy, at least half on pavement. The Maxxis Ikons rode suprisingly well on pavement -- not as well as the road-fast F Freds, but very well give their heavy knobs. I attribute a good part of their rolling quality to the fact that I run the without tubes -- really, removing tubes seems to be the equivalent of going from, say, a Kojak to a Compass Extra Light. I daresay that the quality of the tires converted affects the degree of difference, but it is still striking.

BTW, I am convinced that tall, heavily knobbed tires do add considerable wind resistance compared to a road slick when riding into a stiff headwind. Windy says here in Duke City!

[Mark in Beacon]

Yes, good advice in a clearly delineated, either/or, binary, black and white world. But the OP was asking about the confusing array of tires available, and what exactly constitutes a supple tire. Trying all the available tires out there is a bit daunting. While experimentation is inevitable, the great thing about a list devoted to bike stuff is that you can access lots of other experiences that would otherwise be unavailable.

Other than tubulars vs. clinchers when I was racing, I never paid much attention to tires. Just figured if you wanted good ones, buy the more expensive ones. Which, to a certain extent, is still true. But I think becoming more educated about the various qualities of bicycle tires is kinda useful, and relatively interesting. It will be particularly interesting to compare the stock Clem tires with a puffy, supple, lightweight. I did hear that Panaracer Gravel Kings will soon be available in a 48cm 650B that has a herringbone tread very similar to the Compass tires. Anyone heard anything further about a release date on these? I imagine Soma is cooking up an entry into the 650B 42+ field.

[Steve Palincsar]

You may be enjoying a special case.  Goatheads, horrible as they are, make a small clean puncture that is exactly what Orange Seal is best at sealing.  The holes that are made in the tire are unlikely to cut across large areas of fabric.  If you rode on surfaces that instead looked or acted as though they were made like this



Orange Seal probably wouldn't work at all.

[John Bokman]

Of all the tires I've ridden that come to mind (Schwalbe 26x2.0 Big Apple; Pasella 700c Tour Guard and non-Tour guard in 32, 35, 37 mm; Soma New Express 700x37; Jack Brown Green 700x33.333 and Compass Barlow Pass EL 700x38) they all have their purpose. Some are more "fun" than others. Some wear better, some have better grip on pavement, some are better off-pavement....To the question at hand: Would I notice the difference between a Jack Brown and a "Supple tire"? No, I would not. I think the Jack Brown Green is the best riding tire I've tried in 700c. It rolls as well as the Barlow and feels livelier. In fact I prefer the ride of my (albeit narrower) 700x33.333 Jack Browns vs. the 700x38 Barlow Els. But this is not to say there is no cost to this choice. The Jack Browns, in my experience, do not last very long, and puncture more easily than the other tires I've listed (can't compare to the Barlows on this score yet because I have not enough miles on them to know). Interesting to me, they're not as "supple" as the Barlows. Rest assured, the Jack Browns are supple enough to provide exceptional ride quality, if that's what's making them ride so well. In my mind, weight makes  big difference in the liveliness of the ride. Both the Jack Brown Greens (350 grams) and Barlow Pass Els (lighter still) are light. When I switch from Pasellas or Soma New Express to the Jacks or the Barlows, I notice an immediate improvement in liveliness. Depends what matters most to you. All are good tires for a particular purpose. I haven't yet found one tire to do it all - though I'm still looking.

[Garth]

  
Funny Steve .... I notice anywhere even as a "complaint" is registered ,  it's given so enthusiastically ! !

[Kieran J]

I completely agree with your assessment of the JBGs. 

A lot of people don't consider them to be in the same league as the Compass offerings, but I totally do. They get slagged a lot for being too stout or having too much rolling resistance, but I don't see it. There's something just "right" about the way they ride. It's the only tire I've ever had on my Rambouillet - no big desire to upgrade, in spite of the dearth of choices in 700x32-35. 

I have the standard Barlows on my commuter bike and they are as nice, but not measurably better than the JBGs, IMO.

KJ

[Kieran J]

Err, I meant wealth - not dearth.

KJ

[cyclotourist]

Jack Brown Greens are great! I think they're pretty far up there on
the suppleness scale. Just a step below Grand Bois or Challenge and a
step above Marathon Supremes.

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[ian m]

Living in Pittsburgh, PA these both look like the roads I ride daily, along with some nowhere-near-level brick and thrashed cobbestone streets thrown in for good measure. I think the smoothest surfaces I ride often tend to be the trail shortcuts through the large city park I live next to.

Interesting responses in here so far. The Thunder Burt stands out as a tire I would never have thought to look at. Unfortunately the 650b hasn't really made any inroads here yet so I have basically 0 options for looking at tires aside from the stray 27.5 MTB knobby that a couple shops might stock. Lots of fat tires though! So experimenting with a half dozen different models of tires I have to mailorder for $100+/pair is not a feasible option for me.

The supple vs. strong dichotomy is exactly what I'm hoping to get beyond. It's the in-between I'm interested in. I'm a light, non-aggressive rider and rarely get flats. I haven't flatted a Schwalbe in who knows how long and have only pinch flatted the Jack Browns running too low PSI.  I don't plan on replacing those until they wear down to the tube. Also, what makes them "stout"?

Longevity though is one of the deciding factors for me. It's kept me from getting a set of Bruce Gordon RnRs and also from Compass and the Pari-Motos. I'm not interested in an "event tire" no matter how nice it rides. I need something that will stand up to time in the saddle more than I need something that will protect me from poor road conditions.

[Steve Palincsar]

Compass is as close to you as it is to me, no farther away than the mailbox.

[James Chang]

Hi Lungimsam,

I recently switched Rumpkins to Hetre and it felt more like a bike change than a tire swap.  The difference is staggering and nothing short of amazing.

James Chang

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[Justin August]

I agree. I also have had the same if not fewer flats since swapping to wider, more supple tires at lower pressure. Adding in a couple ounces of Stan's to my tubes was more out of boredom and tinkering than real need.

-Justin

[Toshi Takeuchi]

The Grand Bois Hetre is renowned for its longevity and relatively low flat rate.  I use the regular version and it's cheaper than the EL.  I never heard of anyone regretting the use of these tires, although maybe someone here will prove me wrong! 

Toshi

--

[NickBull]

Except at 40mph downhill as you hit a tight curve and discover your front tire is going flat.

That said, "flatproof" tires are not flatproof in my experience, so then I figure I may as well go with supple.  But not without a slight increase in risk.

Nick

[Mark Reimer]

I'm also a big fan of jack brown green. I normally ride Thunderburt 2.1 or 2.25 in the lightest most supple variant (whatever it's called, Schwalbe naming protocol is in serious need of a rebrand) and Barlow Pass EL 38's on the pavement. They are all wonderful. But the Jack Brown rolls wonderfully as well (perhaps ever so slightly behind the Compass tire), but is significantly tougher and more resistant to flats. I would LOOOOOVE a Jack Brown green in a 42 or even 50 for loaded touring. 33.333 still seems so skinny to me when the bike is loaded to the max. Thinking the Schwalbe Super Moto might be the next tire I get...

[John Phillips]

Hi,
    My neighborhood roads are much worse than those in Steve's photos. My wife & I both thought something was wrong with our bikes, because we didn't experience that same "Wow!" when we brought our new Riv's home. Turns out, those road surfaces near Riv HQ were simply smoother than what's outside our door. Changing from Big Ben's to Compass Pass tires solved our road buzz/bump issues.

But this was with a Hunqapillar and a Betty Foy with albaross bars. On my new AHH, with noodle bars, I find I'm much less affected by these same neighborhood bumps & cracks, even riding Little Ben tires.

I have to admit, though, that I inflate all my tires enough to insure they don't get squirrelly on the turns. Deflating stiff tires enough to be cushy is not an option in our traffic & on our hills.

OTOH, I could see myself putting up with all the buzz I would get if I was commuting on Marathons simply because I need to get there on time everyday, come hell or high water.

John

[Mike in WA]

I rode Schwalbe Marathons for years, because I knew they were high-quality and tough and I was ignorant of alternatives. I also believed that high pressure = fast and ran the 33.33's at about 75-80 PSI. I used to live in a college town that was strewn with broken glass where I logged about 15,000 Rivendell miles. I would often have to pull little bits of ground glass out of the Marathon tread. After seeing some testimonials for Compass tires on the list, I had to see what this supple tire deal was about.

I got about as many flats (hardly any) on Barlow Pass tires run at ≈40 PSI as I did with Marathons at 80 psi. When I put the Compass tires on it was like getting a new bike, with a much livelier and more comfortable ride. I was a bike-only commuter and feared the possibility of getting flats from road debris, but it never came to pass. I think this is because of the lower pressure I was very comfortably and capably running. That idea sounded like a wishful marketing pitch when I bought them, but just wanted to pass along an anecdotal piece of evidence to say that comfort and reliability aren't mutually exclusive.

[Ron Mc]

Similar testimonial on Barlows.  I thought Strada Biancas were the be-all, end-all tire.  After the best part of a year on Barlows, went back to my fender bike that won't fit bigger than the 32mm, and while I admit it was notably faster on the SBs (and should be for the size difference), the ride was shocking compared to what I've become used to with the Barlows (ditto for size difference).  I've ridden through tread on both tires, but won't go back to a smaller tire on a bike that will fit Barlows.  Also not saying the Barlows are slow, at all, because they are very fast, and I've surprised many roadies with us passing each other back and forth.  

[Kieran J]

Similar here, as well. I ran regular Barlows last summer and fall, and now again in the spring commuting on winter crud and debris-strewn downtown streets. Probably a couple thousand KM on what were already used tires. I've only had a single rear flat so far in owning them, which I feel is pretty darn good.

KJ

[JohnS]

I recently bought a pair of standard Barlows from a list member and I'm very glad that I did. Last year I rode Paselas with tour guard. They worked fine and never had a flat, but I was always curious about the Compass tires, so I jumped when the were listed here a little while back. So far I've completed two rides and I've noticed a couple of unexpected differences from the Paselas. First is the cornering, hard to describe but seems to be me like going from a bias ply to radial. There isn't a transition from the belt so cornering seems more fluid. The second unexpected difference is that some road surfaces just seem smoother, as if I'm gliding over irregularities rather than being jarred by them. I would highly recommend giving a more supple tire a try, you may be surprised as well.

JohnS

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 10:47:28 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

" I admit it was notably faster on the SBs (and should be for the size difference),"

Ron Mc,

When you say the Strada Biancas are notably faster than Barlow Pass, do you mean objectively measured to be faster?  If so, what was your measurement method and what was the measured difference in speed?  Or do you mean they were subjectively faster?  Like "wow, these feel a lot faster", or "hey I used to ride this section in Gear X, and now I'm in Gear Y"?  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Jim Bronson]

And is that compared to the regular Barlow or the Ultralight Barlow?

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[Ron Mc]

yeah, it's like, hey I'm riding with my hair on fire (see, Bill, I still got hair)

also, a really good qualitative test is chasing your long-time riding buddy and his college-age daughter on their tandem.  

[Bill Lindsay]

Understood.  Thanks for that clarification.  That makes sense.  

[Lungimsam]

It is interesting to note that BQ riders in their tire or frame tests (forgot which) did not accurately report which tire or frame was faster.
Their objective impressions did not match the timer, iirc.

Like, they claimed a certain tire or frame felt faster, when in fact, one of the other ones they just rode during the test was faster, according to the timer.

From this, BQ concluded that the riders (in their study), could not accurately say which frame/tire was faster.

[Ron Mc]

but most riders think the feel of road vibration = speed, hence the desire to pump to max rated pressure.  I was specifically talking about two different tires but both running well below rated pressure - no vibration whatsoever and only one of them giving occasional shock - and yes, you know for sure when you're trying to chase a tandem with two healthy riders.  

[Jim Bronson]

That's true about the vibration.

One other way of gauging resistance is to note the perceived effort it takes to sustain any given speed say 15 mph.

I've been riding supple tires since late 2007 but one metric that I noticed right away when I switched from 700x28 Conti UltraGatorskins to Grand Bois Cypress 700x30(labeled, 32ish inflated) was that the amount of effort it took to sustain 20+ mph was much less, and the ride was better to boot.  And this was even with the GB aired up to the max sidewall PSI of 85.  If I knew then what I know now I would put less air in them.

Of course the Gatorskin is one of the heavest rolling slick tires made, so YMMV.

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[Ron Mc]

another datapoint is making the same route and checking your watch.  I have a long commute, get to my office crazy early and leave when I want (or when the work allows).  But I also have close access to two really nice greenways from my office, so I frequently bring the bike in and bail out to ride.  I have a standard 31-mi route I normally make in 2 hours including water stops.  If I cut 10 minutes from that, I know I'm going faster.  But I can tell you for sure, Strada Biancas are faster than Barlow ELs, but not that much faster, and the comfort of the Barlows more than makes up for the difference.  

[Patrick Moore]

I don't believe that this is nearly as true as claimed. At any rate, it certainly isn't my experience, which is instead ease of maintaining a given cadence in given conditions in given gears. In fact, my own "sense" of speed is much more tied to smoothness than vibration -- Elk Passes, Parigi Roubaix, F Freds, etc feel fast in part because they don't vibrate.

[Close parenthesis.]

On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:27 PM, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

but most riders think the feel of road vibration = speed, hence the desire to pump to max rated pressure.  I was specifically talking about two different tires but both running well below rated pressure - no vibration whatsoever and only one of them giving occasional shock - and yes, you know for sure when you're trying to chase a tandem with two healthy riders.  

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[Mark Reimer]

Would a suitable way of measuring this be testing tires with a power meter? 

IE: Same power output on the same stretch of road with the same wind conditions, then compare speed between tires? 

Or then again, who cares. Ride what makes you feel good :)

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[Ron Mc]

that would be more accurate than a dyno test on a tire, because there are a lot of road variables, including parachute factor, weight split between tires.  My go-fast bike will lunge up grades in tall gears (Open Paves) with a fairly gentle mash, and I would want a lower gear and spin on a different bike.  And yes, it's all about enjoying the ride.  Back to the Open Paves, they are a remarkably comfortable ride for 95 psi 27mm - they just don't last long, I get 600 mi from a rear.  

[Lungimsam]

This is a fascinating subject. And I cannot comment on Ron's experience.

Speaking from my own experience:
It is really hard for me to know if one bike is faster than another, or if a component makes it faster/slower. Maybe because of the engine and wind. Maybe my bikes are very closely related.

The condition of the engine changes. Wind does too. Here in central Maryland it is subtly breezy year round.

I know that some days I feel like I can't even get outta my own way on my Bleriot and Sam. Other days, I feel like I'm flying along easily. Is it the wind? Is it me? This happens regardless of which tires I use.

I had a Giant carbo/alu bike that felt fast, and it seems that I have dropped 1mph on my overall route on bike time average speeds since I switched to 650b steel, even on Compass/BQ tires. But, the fastest commute on bike timings were done on my steel bikes with both Marathons and Compass/GB tires. I'm also a few years older. Bith Rivs beat the Giant. Me? Wind?

But my overall avapeeds were faster on the Giant with Gatorskins.

So I I dont understand it and cannot say for sure which bike with which version of components is faster.

I can say the Rivs are more comfy, better handling, and smoother than the Giant bike.

[Mark Reimer]

Ohhh, now check this out!!

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews/schwalbe-big-one-2016

Quantified data on tire rolling resistance as it relates to pressure. This is very cool. A review of the new Schwalbe Big One 2.35 nearly-slick tire, supposedly their fastest tire EVER (including compared to skinny road tires). I need these on my Atlantis!

[Ron Mc]

Read again, rolling resistance ID only a small piece of the puzzle

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/29/2016 04:21 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
> Ohhh, now check this out!!
>
> http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews/schwalbe-big-one-2016
>
> Quantified data on tire rolling resistance as it relates to pressure.
> This is very cool. A review of the new Schwalbe Big One 2.35
> nearly-slick tire, supposedly their fastest tire EVER (including
> compared to skinny road tires). I need these on my Atlantis!

Another drum test. It may be "quantified" but that doesn't necessarily
mean it means anything.

[Ron Mc]

We're all throwing out a lot of extremes for direct comparison on this thread, and trying to justify minor differences with empirical lab data that may or may not relate to the reality of the road.  I will say the fastest tires I've lived with 320 tpi, 95 psi, 27mm (probably 26).  But not until they warm up (also demonstrated trying to chase the tandem, which is a steady 2 mph faster than I normally ride).  The good news is, there are many great tires out there for our personal preferences of longevity, cozy, and fast.  

[John Phillips]

Aside from the question of speed, I did notice the tires listed here

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/mtb-reviews/schwalbe-big-one-2016

as having less resistance corresponded to the tires Riv listers enjoy more on the road / trail, for example the Thunder Burt tires.

And I see the Conti Race Kings with flat protection are not far behind the Thunder Burts.

John

[Bill Lindsay]

Ron Mc and Steve Palincsar are right that drum testing is only a small piece of the puzzle, but I will point out to those two that this is the first time (that I know of) where a wide, thinwalll, low pressure tire has measured FASTER on a drum than skinny, hard, high-pressure tires.  Normally, we're all used to seeing the drum-data tell us that skinny tires at 120psi are the lowest rolling resistance, and we've grown to be skeptical of those results, because of suspension losses when there is a real rider and bicycle involved.  We've learned that our wide, supple, low pressure tires are "slower" on the drum, but those losses are more than covered on the road because of a reduction of suspension losses.  This is a shocking result because this fat, low pressure, thin sidewall tire is actually FASTER on the drum.  Add to that the expected suspension loss benefits, and you've got a potential rocketship tire.  I just finished ordering a bunch of stuff from Chain Reaction, too.  Dangit!

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[cyclotourist]

A drum test, but on irregular diamond plate surface rather than a smooth drum.

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Jan Heine]

Interesting tread... and I am glad so many listmembers enjoy their Compass tires as much as we do. (We developed them for our own bikes, after all.)

I'd like to clarify a few things about the TPI (threads per inch) of the Compass tires. The Extralight models actually use the thinnest casing fibers that Panaracer makes. If packed tightly and measured the "Italian way", these would result in 360 TPI casings. However, by using the same thin fibers, but weaving them a bit looser, you get an even suppler casing, but of course, the TPI is lower. More on the subject is here:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2015/01/05/tpi-and-tire-performance/

There is a lot that goes into making supple tires, and like so many things, it's hard to put that into a single number. It's like "How do you make a great-riding frame?" In the end, you go by experience - if many experienced riders tell you that a certain frame is great, it probably is. The same applies to tires.

As a final note, if you want to compare the performance of tires, you have to do it on the same bike. With different bikes, small things like aerodynamics (if your stem is just 20 mm lower, your wind resistance is about 5% lower) or the frame flex characteristics of the frame (what we call "planing") will affect the speeds you can achieve on the road, so even if your measurements are accurate (you need a lot of repeats to reduce the noise in the data), you may not be measuring tire performance. That said, the Challenge tires mentioned by one poster are very nice, too, and in our performance testing, were about equal to the standard Grand Bois/Compass casings.

Jan Heine

Compass Bicycles Ltd.

www.compasscycle.com

[Ron Mc]

thanks Jan, in a way the casings thing is apples and oranges, in that, manufacturing vulcanized tires and hand-glued tires is apples and oranges.  The casings that Jan worked out with Panaracer are special, and Panaracer has jumped on it in several new lines of tires.  Since Jan brought up Challenge again, the Strada Biancas are noticeably quieter than Compass ELs (in 32mm or 38mm).  The energy producing that sound has to come from somewhere.  Still not a bad thing, again apples and oranges - I love my Barlows and will be buying more as I wear them out.  They are very fast and ridiculously comfortable.  Something else that is nice about the Barlows is the confidence that big footprint gives you when cornering.  

[ascpgh]

Funny how the sensation of being on the knife's edge of performance on a bike, with increased vibration and increased feel of the road surface is processed as "faster" in the brain. 

Sensory inputs that release the fight or flight substances in the brain must be at play. Scientific interpretation of that is tough. A roller coaster purposely plays with those, a take off in an airliner is a much greater demonstration of physics but feels much less impressive. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Ron Mc]

sorry to bring up OT, but I'm reminded of a favorite Car and Driver editorial - speed v. velocity.  100 mph in an exotic GT is velocity.  100 mph in a bugeye Sprite is Speed.  

[ian m]

I appreciate that the TPI factor was addressed. I wonder who is making tires with multiple layers of casing and slathering them with rubber and puncture protection and marketing them as 300+TPI high-performance tires? 

Everything else is just reinforcing the idea of supple Compass tires vs. all other tires. I'm glad people like those tires, I really am, but I still wish sense could be made of the varying continuum between those and cheap heavy duty wire bead tires, because I know there are variables in all those tires, I know they ride differently, and knowing the qualitative differences in how they ride is actually what this thread was supposed to be about: how to measure the suppleness of tires that are not "THE supple tires".

[Patrick Moore]

Short of a comprehensive testing and measuring project, the only way to compare stiff to suppler to supplest is to try a lot of them. Come to think of it, without actual riding experience, even accurate numbers wouldn't mean much.

But others posted their continuums earlier in the thread, no?

On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 3:46 PM, ian m <darkg...@gmail.com> wrote:

I appreciate that the TPI factor was addressed. I wonder who is making tires with multiple layers of casing and slathering them with rubber and puncture protection and marketing them as 300+TPI high-performance tires? 

Everything else is just reinforcing the idea of supple Compass tires vs. all other tires. I'm glad people like those tires, I really am, but I still wish sense could be made of the varying continuum between those and cheap heavy duty wire bead tires, because I know there are variables in all those tires, I know they ride differently, and knowing the qualitative differences in how they ride is actually what this thread was supposed to be about: how to measure the suppleness of tires that are not "THE supple tires".

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[Ron Mc]

if you run the pressures appropriately low, Challenge does a very good job of adding limited puncture resistance to fast cozy tires.  I've put many thousand miles on them on 3 bikes.  Their belts don't prevent flats, they just slow them down - it takes a couple of weeks for the glass shards to get through to the tube - but that gets you home.  And guess what?  They are 260 tpi high performance tires.  

For that matter, I've only had one flat on a Vittoria Open Pave (also a Kevlar belt), and it was a big cut in the tread.  

If I was lumping tires together, I would put Challenge (and Vittoria) open tubulars and Compass ELs on the same end of the spectrum.  

Marathons are very fast tires, but you can't call them cozy.  Panaracers to me fall in between, mostly because they're lightweight, but they have to run high pressures to perform well.  

[Ron Mc]

I'll report for my daughter, also.  I put Jack Brown greens on her upright and she didn't like anything about them (she never thought they were fast enough, though her nature is fast), but I have to think the 60 tpi made a difference.  

She's ridden many miles on three sizes of Challenge on two different bikes and loved them.  Right now her go-fast has Veloflex, which only come in 25mm, but are essentially Open Paves made in Italy (and 20% cheaper).  

Also her upright now has Soma Supple Vitesse in 42mm, but hasn't ridden them enough to report.  

[Lungimsam]

Based on what I have read about tires, there are different testors who have come out with their tire testing results. Whether the results are reliable and valid is contested by many. Each would probably say their tesults are reliable and valid, and give convincing arguments. So, at this point, you have to do the reading and then decide who is most convincing to you, and then try those tires. That is sbout as good as it gets as of 3/2016 as far as I can tell.

Therefore, probably the best thing to do is to decide what features in a tire you are looking for and then ask for recommendations in a new post on this forum. There are many forum members who are tire enthusiasts who could give recommendations, being as they have already run the gamut of tire trial and error, trying to find the best of the best.