San Marcos or Straggler 650B?

[se...@austin.utexas.edu]

Hi Group,

I am contemplating a new bike build for long distance riding (centuries, rando rides, etc.). I have neck issues so comfort is a must. I currently ride and commute on a LHT with a very upright riding position. I'm considering a Soma (Riv) San Marcos or a Surly 650B Straggler. Both are appealing in different ways. As a former Rambouillet owner, I miss the Riv geometry and liveliness but the Straggler has the ability to handle 42mm tires and has brakes (of which I was a reluctant convert but now love...I know..."retrogrouch heresy!").

From a recent post it seems the San Marcos is very well regarded. Both frames are 650B (needed for my short stature - frame size 50-52). Any one have experience with both? Hard to find info/reviews on the 650B Straggler. San Marcos might be a more lively long distance ride, but the disc brakes and versatility of the Straggler sure is appealing. Would probably set both up with pull back bars of some sort.

Thanks for any insight!

Sean

ATX

[se...@austin.utexas.edu]

Sorry, missed the "disc" brakes of the Straggler (in the first paragraph). Luckily both bikes can handle brakes :)! - Sean

[Tim Gavin]

FYI, the 650b San Marcos fits 650 x 42 tires, or 650 x 38 tires with P45 fenders.

The San Marcos would be a lighter, more compliant, more road-oriented bike.  The Straggler would be heavier, more tour-capable, more off-road-capable bike.  The Straggler would be more similar to your LHT, where the San Marcos would be more similar to your Rambouillet.

Compare the geometry closely.  The San Marcos has more stack, but a longer top tube for roughly the same size.  You could fit an upright cockpit easily with a tall/short stem, like a dirt drop or Technomic 7-8 cm.

The Straggler has less stack, so a funny stem or a steerer extender may be required to get the bars really high.  But, the Straggler does have a shorter top tube.

The San Marcos is sold as a frameset, so your custom cockpit wouldn't add to the cost.  The Straggler comes as a complete bike, so you'd have to change out the cockpit, and the total cost may be higher.

I can't deny the appeal of disc brakes (I have them on my cyclocross/gravel bike and my fat bike); I've never used caliper brakes with anywhere near the stopping power and control of the average BB7 mechanical disc.  But for a road-oriented distance bike, I'd be perfectly satisfied with the R559 calipers.

The mint color of the 2016 Straggler is pretty great, though.

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[Bill Lindsay]

Some people run the SOMA Wolverine with 650B wheels also.  If I wanted to set up a 650B disk road bike today, that would likely be the frameset I'd work with.  

[cyclotourist]

I think the Straggler looks like a great bike (loved the purple), but
I think it would be overbuilt for your needs (randos, centuries). I
mean you can do it of course, but the bike is going to be still &
solid. That's going to work against you at the 237 kilometer mark! As
Bill mentioned, the Wolverine would be pretty coo, but maybe the same
problem (overbuilt for needs). Don't forget the Salsa Vaya as well,
although still a bit overbuilt for what you mention
http://salsacycles.com/bikes/archive/2015_vaya_2 Comes with 26" but
should be able to convert to 650X42B but you would need to confirm
that.

Also the Elephant NFE. Low trail fat tired goodness. That would
probably be my pick from all the above, but costs a bit more as well.

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Kieran J]

+1 on this. The Straggler/Cross Check is not optimized with high bars in mind, and that aspect is complicated by a threadless steerer design.

Considering you would likely go with swept-back bars, the San Marcos appears to be the better match of the two for your needs.

KJ

[se...@austin.utexas.edu]

Thanks for the replies and feedback all! I am thinking the San Marcos would probably be perfect. Up to this point, I am able to get the bars high enough on my LHT due to having an uncut steerer, but the quill stem certainly would provide easier adjustment not to mention be more appealing than a giant stack of spacers. Also, the lighter nature of the San Marcos tubing is certainly appealing as well. If I can replicate the ride quality of my old Ram, then it will probably be worth it. I'll have to double check the geometry, but I think with a dirt drop stem and some Alba/stache bars it may be upright enough. Can't seem to handle drops anymore (currently using Jones loop bars and love 'em). Looks like 42mm tires could be squeezed in there too with fenders.

Sean

ATX 

[A CT Cyclist]

I own a 51 cm Soma San Marco and I love it I have wide drop bars set up ~3 inches above my saddle with a 50 cm stem and I love it. I haven't ever ridden a Straggler but there are a few things that keep me from pursuing it.  1- the geometry is quite different, seat tube angle for Straggler = 74 San Marco = 71.5. The slacker angle allows me to ride a Brooks saddle without issue and I find it a little kinder to my knees.  Reach for Straggler = 383 San Marco = 356 even though the San Marco's top tub is  2.1 cms longer. BB drop for Straggler = 54 San Marco = 65. which means the San Marco has a low bb ht.  Stack for Straggler = 523 San Marco = 576. Chainstay for Straggler = 405 San Marco = 455. Front center for Straggler = ? San Marco = 591 and I have not experienced any toe over lap. The Straggler's geo is fairly typical for a smaller modern bike. San Marco's geo is fairly typical for Rivendell Bicycle these days. 

2. Threadless stem vs threaded, I prefer the threaded it allows me to get the bars higher without having to use an ugly stem extender and personally I like the aesthetics of the threaded stem better.

Another difference is the steel, Soma uses Tange and Surly uses 4130, draw your own conclusions. As far as using the Soma for touring, I have done it. Granted I never carry more than 20lbs. but I have hauled loads of grocery's without any issues. Small frames  are inherently stronger than larger frames due to the smaller diamond.

[A CT Cyclist]

I don't think you can squeeze 42 mm tires with fenders. Soma's website states 38 mm without fenders 35 mm with. From what I can tell you can get the Straggler as a complete bike or a frame only.

[Steve Palincsar]

According to Surly's web site  http://surlybikes.com/bikes/straggler/frame_highlights

Tire Clearance

Our Fatties Fit Fine (FFF) stays and our beautiful slope-crowned custom fork provide room for tires up to 700c x 42mm! With fenders!

[A CT Cyclist]

Of course fff on a Surly but I was talking about the Soma San Marco, which if I understand correctly Sean is now leaning towards.

[Philip Kim]

I fit 42 with fenders fine with Paul Brakes. Other San Marcos on this list has 42 Marathons with SKS fenders.

[Tim Gavin]

I agree that Paul Racers give you more fender clearance than Tektro R559 calipers. I use Racers on my Riv Road (where clearance is very tight) and I can comfortably fit VO "hammered" 45 mm fenders over 650 x 38 Pari-Motos.

The arms of the R559 calipers intrude more into the vertical fender space.  With those calipers, I could fit 38 mm tires and SKS P45 fenders, but not the VO "hammered" 45s (that are a little thicker).

On my girlfriend's San Marcos, I could probably fit 650 x 42s under the P45 fenders, but the brake caliper would push the front fender lip into the tire space occasionally.  650 x 38s give just enough room so the fender never rubs.

Pari-Moto tires are cheap, light, supple, and available in both 650 x 38 and 42 sizes.  Their actual width is 37-38 mm on PL23 rims.  They've held up well for us and they ride great.

Cheers,

Tim

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 7:24 AM, Philip Kim <phili...@gmail.com> wrote:

I fit 42 with fenders fine with Paul Brakes. Other San Marcos on this list has 42 Marathons with SKS fenders.

[Chad]

I've test ridden both bikes and liked them. I believe the Straggler will be a pound or two heavier depending on the build, though disc brakes are nice for "all roading". I think most Surlys come with uncut steerers, but I still think you will get a better fit and that "Riv" ride out of the SM. The Straggler will be more suitable for rough gravel/fire roads and light trails. Both are good values IMO.

[A CT Cyclist]

Tim what year is your girlfriend's San Marco? It looks like the tire clearance has gotten wider than the   first editions  were. Mine is a 2012, at that time the stated clearance was 35 mm without fenders, 33.3 mm with.

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[Chad]

You may be right. I was looking at the 650b SM a couple of years ago before I bought my Sam. Mark at Riv said he test fit a 650x41 Fatty Rumpkin and it was too tall at the fork.

[Utah]

Hi Sean,

I think the most important thing you have mentioned is that you want to rive very upright.  I own a cross check and an LHT.  I recently bought my wife a Rivendell (Betty Foy) because I could not get the cross check that I bought for her to be comfortable at all.  We almost bought the San Marcos but she liked the Betty better.

As you likely know the cross check is the same geometry as the straggler.  The primary problem they have is that they have a race geometry and a cyclocross race geometry at that.  The cyclocross geometry raises the bottom bracket a couple of centimeters so this in turn will put the rider in a higher position in relation to the bars which will make it feel like the bars are really low like a racing bike.  Look at the bottom bracket drop number for each bike.  The BB drop for the cross check will be much lower, meaning the cranks are higher off the ground (to clear logs and obstacles, etc.)

On the other hand, the Soma San Marcos has a really long head tube with a quill stem with will boost the handlebars way up!  

Here is a picture of my wife's (now my daughter's) cross check.

REB Cross Check

[Tim Gavin]

My girlfriends SM is a 51 cm 1st generation (pearly blue).

AFAIK, besides the color change (to tiburon blue), the only other changes from 1st to 2nd generation San Marcos are to the fork: new fork legs with a more "classic" curve, and mid-fork eyelets, a la Riv.

I don't believe there were any other changes to geometry or clearance between the generations.

The 650b and 700c San Marcos frames each have different tire clearances.  The 650b fits a wider tire (stated clearance 38 mm) than the 700c (stated clearance 35 mm).  

In fact, the 650b still has pretty generous room with 650 x 38 tires, enough for 38 + fenders or for a 650 x 42 tire (Hetres at least, which don't have the extra thick tread of the Fatty Rumpkin).  

Cheers,

Tim

[Zach Duval]

There is indeed a 650B San Marcos on eBay currently (no relation to seller) that sports Soma GRs in 42.

[Chad]

This is true, I have both the Fatty Rumpkins and Compass Babyshoes and the rumpkins are indeed a little taller with the extra thick tread.

[se...@austin.utexas.edu]

Thanks for the input, all. Very helpful. Thinking of pulling the trigger on a SM frameset and building one up. Or there seem to be a couple of 51cm completes on eBay right now. All reviews so far have been positive. Hoping I can replicate the feel of my Jones bars with some albatross/stache with a dirt drop stem. Still want discs but sounds like side/centerpull will be good enough for its use. Maybe someday Grant will drink the disc kool aid. That new segmented Appaloosa fork would look great designed for discs.

[cyclotourist]

My only thought on discs, is that stock/mass-produced bikes with discs
have VERY stiff forks. I've ridden my Salsa La Cruz back to back with
my Riv custom, same 40mm MSO tires, and WOW, what a difference in
compliance between the two. The La Cruz is like riding a jack hammer.
Riv is totally plush. YMMV of course, and discs are great IMHO, but
generic disc forks you would find on any non-custom are really
uncomfortable.

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 4:30 PM, se...@austin.utexas.edu
<se...@austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
> Thanks for the input, all. Very helpful. Thinking of pulling the trigger on a SM frameset and building one up. Or there seem to be a couple of 51cm completes on eBay right now. All reviews so far have been positive. Hoping I can replicate the feel of my Jones bars with some albatross/stache with a dirt drop stem. Still want discs but sounds like side/centerpull will be good enough for its use. Maybe someday Grant will drink the disc kool aid. That new segmented Appaloosa fork would look great designed for discs.
>

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[Evan Baird]

I've heard rumblings that the San Marcos may not be long for this world. I had hoped that increasing the tire clearance would give it a bump, but apparently they're talking about killing it off unless sales suddenly increase. I guess it's ultimately up to Riv, since it's technically their project, but it doesn't seem like that's the kind of thing they're very interested in these days.

[Chad]

That's a shame. The SM is such a great deal for someone wanting to join the Riv family!

[islaysteve]

But is it really Grant's call? I know that he killed the Bleriot but that was a diffent deal; Riv-badged bike. Soma may have something to say about this one. For course, they may not be selling well Soma also. I agree, it would be a shame. I'd probably have bought one if I hadn't found my Bleriot.
Cheers, Steve

[A CT Cyclist]

That's really a shame. Makes me want to buy another one. Perhaps if they did away with the double top tube in the larger sizes it would appeal to more non Riv folks.

On Jan 16, 2016 11:00 AM, "islaysteve" <alki...@verizon.net> wrote:

But is it really Grant's call?  I know that he killed the Bleriot but that was a diffent deal; Riv-badged bike.  Soma may have something to say about this one.  For course, they may not be selling well Soma also.  I agree, it would be a shame.  I'd probably have bought one if I hadn't found my Bleriot.
Cheers, Steve

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[se...@austin.utexas.edu]

Just got one through my LBS. Soma has a couple of 51cms left. May be worth pulling the trigger on a new one. Love the classic curve of the fork and the fact that the new ones have the mid fork braze-ons. It would be a shame to kill off this model. Seems to be a good bang for the buck compared to proprietary Rivs. Glad I snatched one up.

Sean
ATX

[cyclotourist]

This.

I'm not anti-DTT, but have fully consumed the Kool-Aide. I can't
imagine even trying to explain it to the general bike-buying public.

It's the equivalent of opening up a conversation with a description of
your favorite RPG 12th level elf-princess wizard with a stranger at a
bar. Not that I would know anything about that.

On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 8:48 AM, A CT Cyclist <amee...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's really a shame. Makes me want to buy another one. Perhaps if they did
> away with the double top tube in the larger sizes it would appeal to more
> non Riv folks.

[James Warren]

If they did away with the DTT on the 59 cm size, it would be similar to the largest size single-top-tube frames offered by most major brands. The Specialized's in "61" for example, have a seat tube that is really quite a few cm less than 61 cm. (What they call "61" is an effective 61 if you ran an imaginary horizontal line along the top tube to the seatpost.)

So what I'm saying is that a San Marcos 59, if that were the largest size made, would be the bike that sales people on the bike shop would be convincing the 6'3" and 6'4"'s among us to make work for ourselves. ("We'll just use a longer stem and a longer seatpost.") The situation would be a lot like the way it is when tall people buy a bike from "the other guys."

So along comes the 63 cm offering. The San Marcos true 63 with its sloping top tube is like what another brand would call a "66" or "67." That 63 cm San Marcos frame is a BIG frame in the mainstream bike sales arena. But the thing is that few other brands actually sell anything that they would call a 66 or 67. So in that respect, a salesperson could make a case for the San Marcos with its 63 cm actual seat tube. "This here frame is unique. This one will actually fit you, Mr. Tall Man. Most other brands don't design to your needs. These guys do. The double top tube is part of that design. It'll ride better for you this way, because you are so tall." Extra tubes in very tall frames is something that's been done for awhile, although in the late 20th century, I think it was more common in level top tube frames that got greater than 68 cm.

So I think the only thing hard to explain to the general public is the DTT in the 59 cm frame. Since the forthcoming Sam Hillbornes are going to single TT in the 58 cm frames (the logic being that people opting for that instead of Appaloosa are less likely to need it) perhaps a good idea moving forward (if the companies decide to keep the San Marcos going) is to do only DTT in the 63 cm. DTT in 63 cm make a lot of sense in my opinion.

-Jim W.

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James Warren

jimcw...@earthlink.net

- 700x33

[cyclotourist]

Good points, Jim. Basically the DTT shouldn't be a turn off for that
many people. Although I think the 59cm frame is pretty well with
standard frame size for a lot of people. Isn't a (traditional) 58cm
frame the most popular size overall? That or 56, I forget...

Still though, I don't think that helps sell to the general public.
Niche within a niche within a niche!

[joe kelly]

hi
soma announced some new sizes that included a 54cm and 57cm for 650b wheels. there are no pictures on the internet of either san marcos that i can find. has anyone here actually seen one of these? pics?
thanks
joe kelly

[Evan Baird]

There's a whole set here.

https://flic.kr/s/aHskmXiehz

[Evan Baird]

[joe kelly]

i couldnt find these at all. thats a good looking frame. thanks!
joe kelly

[Lungimsam]

That new model San Marcos fork looks like it has more of a nice bend than the earlier sky blue version. Did they change the fork style for the new version? 

[Evan Baird]

They never update their photos. They've been like that for about a year.

[Lucero]

I bought a new San Marcos frame about 8 months ago. Must have been a 'tweener, as it's the newer tiburon blue with mid-fork braze ons on the older banana bend fork: http://imgur.com/a/U12iY

On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 8:20:00 AM UTC-8, Lungimsam wrote: