Teach me about sealant in tubes?

[Brett Callahan]

Friends, I know it has been discussed here before, but I'm awful with the Google Groups search function. Would anyone be willing to share about their experience using Stan's or Orange Seal in tubes? 

I've got a set of Compass tires that I'd like to ride, but it seems they always have a slow leak from a small puncture. From what I gather, sealant in the tubes may help combat that. 

Specific questions are: which sealant do you use? Which tubes do you pair it with? With a tube with a removable valve core, do I need to do anything specific to get it in, or just up end the bottle? How much do you put in in a go? 

Thanks for any willing to share their knowledge. I appreciate the brain trust that is this group. 

Brett, PDX

[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Brett,

I use Orange Seal in tubes (butyl and latex) with Compass 584x38 and 584x42 (regular, not EL casing).

I think it helps, but my frequency of flats was low before sealant. My rides are generally commutes, and getting a flat can be an expensive nuisance if I'm late for child pickup. 

For set up, I install tube+tire and air it up (without sealant). If it looks good, then I deflate the tube and remove the valve core. (BTW: Park chain tool, probably others, can be used to remove the valve core; the "arms" are the right distance to engage the flats of the core.) 

With valve ~4 o'clock position (and tire off the ground), I inject ~4 oz of Orange Seal. I could probably get away with less sealant, but... half of 8 is 4 and I figured that if I stored the bottle, the remaining sealant would probably dry out. (My LBS didn't have the 4oz size.)

Next, reinstall the core and air it up. I recently read someone advising adding Boeshield or similar to the core before installation (to prevent clogging). Maybe I'll try that next time. I can't say that it's been much of a problem for me, though.

Good luck!

shoji

Arlington MA

[DarinM]

I have used sealant in tubes for 6-8 months. I use standard Stan's sealant in Schwalbe tubes for 26x54 and 650bx42 tires and have not had a flat I had to stop and deal with since starting. The tubes have removable cores, which I remove and then use the Stan's injector to add 2-3oz. I think I topped them off once before a tour as a precaution. 

I've been using sealant with Compass standard and various Schwalbe, including the Liteskin casing which is very thin. I think it's been pretty effective.

I've noticed that the sealant is still very much liquid when handling the tube while changing tires, so longevity hasn't been an issue for me. I have had to swap valve cores on one set of tubes when pumping started taking a little too much effort.

Darin

[Drw]

I actually just did this last night for the first time and basically did it just as Shoji describes, though I used about 2-3oz of orange seal. It's pretty easy, and i cant see a reason to not do it, especially if you have removable core tubes. Someone mentioned that the installer tube for orange seal is too big for the valve opening, but the basic lid on the 4 or 8oz bottle actually fits in the hole just right. if you bought a bigger bottle, it might make things harder. 

my only note is that i bought schwalbe extra light tubes and either they are not great, or my tire installation skills are not as good as i though they were. 2 out of 4 leaked upon initial pump up when on the wheel. Not sure if they are faulty or if i did something wrong, but I've swapped normal tubes probably a hundred times and never had that happen. 

[Brett Callahan]

Thanks, this is just what I was looking for. The tip about the chain tool is great. I was planning on attempting it with needle nose pliers or tweezers. Chain tool seems easier!

[Brett Callahan]

Thanks, I'll avoid the extralight tubes and go with something heartier. I just verified that the stack of Specialized tubes I have at home do have removable cores, so I'll start there. 

[Brett Callahan]

Thanks for the notes, very helpful. Did you remove the valve cores from another set of tubes, or are they available as a part on their own? 

[DarinM]

Both, I've removed them from other tubes and bought them at the bike shop. I'll also add on to the negative experience with Schwalbe Extra Light tubes, I've had four split at the seam at typical pressures in Compass 26x54 tires. At least they had removable cores...

Darin

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Tubes have to be built with removable valve cores from the start. You can't swap them out, as it's the entire valve that is different. It's hit or miss at a LBS when you're trying to find them, so check first.

I've run Stan's in tubes before, and have had marginal success. Maybe 75% of the punctures (all goathead) sealed. But that means the other 25% didn't, and that's a problem. You can't field-repair a tube with sealant in it, as the patch won't adhere to the tube. You can patch it back at home if you get it clean enough, but it could still be a problem. YMMV of course.

Full tubeless is the way to go. Save your pennies and get a wheelset built up. I am mostly converted over, and honestly don't ride the bikes that are not set up tubeless anymore.

[Patrick Moore]

If the pressures are high enough, both Stan's and Orange Seal work very well in tubes, OS better than Stan's. I found that neither sealant worked in low pressure tubes (sub 30 psi).

I use the smallest and lightest tubes I can find; 26 X 1" tubes or 650C X 23 in tires up to 32 mm with sealant. Works fine. 

Example of benefit: Several years ago I swapped out my 700C X 35 mm (actual width 31-2 mm) Kojaks for the original Parigi Roubaix clinchers. I had been riding the Kojaks sans sealant and averaged perhaps a flat ever 2 rides of 20 miles or so -- no problem, used to it, just bought lots of patches. Switched to the PR -- nicer ride! Got 5 flats within first 10 miles; used up -- forget; at least 25 and perhaps even more -- patches that week. Bought Stan's, put in tubes, and the clouds opened and angels sang. Later found that OS was even better. 

Now use 175 gram (actual on last one measured) 559 X 32 Elk Pass tires -- lighter and more supple than the PR -- with OS in 60 gram (claimed) SV 11 tubes in our goatheads, both pavement and firm dirt. Angels still singing.

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[Patrick Moore]

Darin an Shoji: what pressures do you use in your 2"+ tires with tubes and sealant? I could not get OS to work with 2" tubes in F Freds at 25 psi and lower; no good at all, so I went to tubeless.

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[Patrick Moore]

I'll add: OS seems to last longer in tubes than Stan's. OS seems to last as long as in the bottle; Stan's has turned into boogers after a year or 18 months. But both dry up in very thin-casing tubeless tires, at least around here in high desert ABQ and I have to replenish, in summer, every 3 months or so. Have been dragging my feet in opening up the tires, removing any dried stuff (OS leaves film, Stan's leaves boogers) and replacing OS Regular with OS "Endurance" (thanks, Joe) which is said to last longer than regular, but doesn't seal quite as well. I'll report when I do this. Right now, with winter temps, I'm pushing my luck with leaving the old stuff in for the 4th month. So far, luck has held.

On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 10:22 AM DarinM <darin...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

[Patrick Moore]

+1 on full tubeless, for fat and soft, but I'm not convinced that for at least supple tires, tubeless is better than tubed, and there's some support for this position. 

I did however get sealant into many prestas without removable cores; just remove them anyway and pinch tube to keep them from disappearing into the abyss of the tube (even if that happens, not hard to get cores back in place). 

Someone on CR list uses large veterinarian syringes for his sealant; sealant itself heals the hole. I've not tried this. Now of course I buy removable cores, but I had a stash of old tubes.

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[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Patrick,

I use 38mm Loup Loup and 42mm BSP... so quite a bit narrower than 2". With those tires, I inflate to 25 - 40psi.

For 2" or larger, I'm with you and would go tubeless.

Also, I'm another person who tried Schwalbe extra light tubes, and had splitting problems (and sealant leakage). Didn't remember that bad experience.

Good luck!

shoji

[Marc Irwin]

I used Stan's for a season on my touring bike and was happy (no flats). So, when I replaced tires, I replaced the tubes with Flat Attack prefilled tubes. The sealant is gauranteed for 5 years. I haven't had a flat on the road in two years, and I ride about 10k per year. I get a puncture now and then, lose a little air, remove whatever caused it, add some air and ride on. The only hiccup is when a valve core gets gummed up, it creates a slow leak that's frustrating but I have learned to keep a few spare valve cores around.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Shoji. So perhaps 25 psi is some sort of threshold for the effectiveness of sealants.

[Patrick Moore]

Sheesh: for the effectiveness of sealant in tubes.

[Craig Montgomery]

Yesterday I OS'ed for the first time the 35mm Compass (Bon Jovie Pass?), with tubes. Had a goathead flat. What I didn't know was that there was more than one goathead lurking in that tire. Those little suckers hide in the tread and just barely protrude into the tire. You can feel for them but sometimes it takes a boomp to make it stick into the tube. Got a mile and poof, that's what happened. Pumped up the tire. Gave it a spin and bingo, fixed. Keep these tires at 45-50 pounds.

      I also run tubes with the Rat Trap Passes on my All Rounder. Mostly out of fear. This happened twice. Imagine you're two days out of Whiteriver, Arizona. Two days into the backroads of the Apache Reservation where you may see a car a day. Maybe not. You're going down a steep rock-strewn road to Wildcat Crossing on the Black River to do a little fly fishing and BAM! A rock has just sliced your tire from rim, up thru the sidewall and a wee bit into the tread. Tubeless? Going to be a bear to boot and seal that split and get the extra 4 ounces of Orange Seal you brought into the tire and keep it there. With tubes you just throw in a new one, butterfly stitch up the sidewall, throw in a piece of filson cloth as a boot and ride away...delicately. Keep the pressure at about 40. That's the minimum with my lard butt and camping loads. For 99% of you this is a non-issue but for that 1% it's something to consider.  

Craig in Tucson 

[DarinM]

I can’t answer that question because I stopped checking pressure and just add/release air when I see the need. I think I’m probably around 25-30psi according to the pump I sometimes use with a gauge, which may or may not apply to the gauge you use.

Darin “no pressure gauges, no masters” in Pullman, WA

[Ron Mc]

Coming in late, in Barlow and Stampede Pass ELs, I use Challenge latex cross tubes.  Up front, living with latex tubes requires pumping every day when you ride, and once/wk when you don't.  

Or if you store the bike, store it on a stand that keeps the wheels off the ground.  

I don't add sealant until I get that first leak, but carry a 2 oz bottle of Stan's, valve core tool and spare valve core.  

First thing to check on a slow leak, btw, is whether your valve core is tight or not.  .  

First flat, I'll add one oz of the Stans, save the second ounce, and use it later as needed.  

That usually takes care of me, but have gone through the exercise of a second 2 oz bottle later, though I normally don't get a lot of flats.  

I definitely get fewer flats than my friend who rides city tires - I think thinner, softer tires will throw away a lot of sharp stuff that will plant in harder, thicker tires.  

I've also been getting a lot of miles out of my tires.  The last one I replaced, a 27mm Vittoria, was flopping casing fibers when I replaced it.  

[Brett Callahan]

Thanks, everyone, for your input. I put sealant in my tubes last night using a chain tool to remove the cores. It was an easy process. 

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[Victor Hanson]

IMHO not worth it.   The time used to get sealant in tubes is royal pita. You would be better going with a tubeless ready tire and tire sauce.   As I have stated before, you ride a lot, experiment with making your own,, if you ride less than 100 miles simply use one of the many available sealants. 

VTW

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[Patrick Moore]

Huh? Good thing I learned about this, since I've been doing it all wrong (and stopped buying patches in lots of 100 twice a year, really) since about 2013!

Of course it's worth it if your options don't include tubeless. I agree that (in my experience, which is limited to tubeless tires that are fat and low pressure) tubeless is better, but man, Orange Seal in light tubes inside of 175 gram Compass Elk Pass extra lights is a hellofalot better than even Kojaks -- the best tire in the 559 size for use in my area without sealants.

And even more seriously: "Time used to get sealant in tubes..." ??!!! About as long as it takes to brush your teeth!