Appaloosa; need or want

[Mike in BK]

Hi gang. I'm itching for my first Riv and decision time is upon me. In Brooklyn I'm rather relegated to paved rides, usually laps in the park. I was never fast, but now I'm rather slow. I don't have a computer on my bike and can't remember the last time I did. I'm tired of clipless pedals and lycra shorts. I want to indulge in "the art of taking it slow" and have a bike that expands on that magic sensation I feel when I ride my 1981 Trek 710 with 531 tubing and longer chainstays. Bigger tires for starters and Grant's progressive designs. I built a '93 Rockhopper with Toscos, a B17, and 2.2 tires for riding upstate and it's fun! That frame's position doesn't really work for longer rides and getting distance covered at a reasonable rate. I had the idea that I would go down to just one bike and pick my perfect do-it-all Riv. I don't think that's very realistic, so maybe the Trek will always have a use for strictly road rides. That leaves commuting, leisurely rides, and some gravel and trail riding when I can get to it. Hillborne you say? Not a bad idea, but I don't hear the same glowing reviews of "Cadillac" type ride, and supreme comfort like I do when folks write about Appaloosas, Platypi, and Charlie Gallops. Slack headtube; long chainstays; I'm buying in. The geo for the 61cm Charlie resembles the 57cm Appaloosa more than anything else. (I noticed the headtube of the Joe went from 72 degrees to 70 degrees not too long ago, maybe that started with the Sergio green run). I don't think the Charlie would be ideal for trails under my 200 lbs, so I'm getting interested in the Joe. Antonio at RBW advised me that the Joe might be too long and heavy for my needs and recommended the Sam. I'm not sure if I'm jazzed about the Sam the same way, and no less important for such an investment, the lime olive Joe coming up is a way preferable color to the offerings of the Hillbornes pre-selling next week. I'd buy a used olive Hillborne (57cm) but no one ever sells their Riv! Any feedback from folks riding recent issue Appaloosas and Hillbornes would be very welcome. Thanks!

[Justin Williams]

FWIW, I'm in a similar position and own a Sam and it's an amazing bike: I live in Chicago, most of my miles are commuting, limestone paths, streets and roads. I have a Hillborne and it is dreamy for all that, plus loaded rides on paved/good condition gravel roads. I'd describe the ride as super comfortable, stable, agile, responsive but not at all twitchy. From what you describe you do and aspire to do, it seems pretty ideal. It's really a wonderful bike that's so versatile.

Having converted a vintage Rockhopper to be rivish in the past, there is just no comparison to the Sam. The Sam is so much livelier, more comfortable, beautiful, stable, and fun. That Rockhopper was a lot of fun and inexpensive, but to me, they are totally different rides.

Re chainstays: They're long by standards of most contemporary bikes, just not quite as long as an Atlantis or some other Rivs. Some folks on the list find that relative shortness to be an advantage, as it makes the bike more maneuverable both on an off trail. If you find yourself lifting your bike up stairs, onto trains, into elevators, you might appreciate the shorter wheelbase, too. I know I've been in some situations where I thought: good gravy this is a big bike (57 Sam from 2021); thank goodness I don't have one of the longer models!

All that said, I'm lusty for an Appaloosa, because I'm planning on some long distance dirt touring where I want big chunky tires, and a different setup than my Sam. But if that wasn't in the works, I wouldn't feel the need for any other bike.

[maxcr]

I have owned a Sam (or two) from the older generations, currently have an Atlantis (old toyo) and a Hunqa and a few others... I think the new Sam with the wider 50mm max tire is perfect for what you describe. It will be fast and won't mind 200lbs plus a small load. It will feel great in pavement or gravel as long as you have the right tires.

Now, if you lust after a Joe, just get a Joe... it will work great too. I rode one at Analog Cycles a million years ago and it was a great bike. 

Rivs are very versatile and you can configure them for your type of riding. Change tires from knobby to RH slicks, add/remove racks and you have a different bike!

You can't go wrong with either. The only thing I wouldn't do is buy a color I didn't like.

Max

[Lucia Matioli]

I have an AHH and I am planning on getting an Appaloosa for a bit more sturdiness. 
I have thrown the Hilsen around on dirt and it's pretty amazing-i can handle a lot of tech as a rider, so it's not been an issue. I also run 48's on it in 650b and it can handle a lot. 
I want some fatter tires and to be able to do more off road bike camping. I think the Appaloosa is going to be perfect for this. 
Plan on building up myself, but we shall see!

I have a PBH of 78.5 and plan on getting the 46...

AND THE LIME OLIVE IS INCREDIBLE. 

Cheers,

Lucia

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[Mike in BK]

Excellent insight. Would be great to see a pic of the Sam. Maybe the Appaloosa will be your go-to and you can sell it to me, lol! Half kidding, but always like to see a well loved Sam if you have pics to post. Thanks!

On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 10:56:29 AM UTC-4 alltheworl...@gmail.com wrote:

[Ryan Schlichting]

Mike,

I had the same thoughts as you on the Appaloosa.  I started with a Sam before they were cantilever braked.  At the time, I was able to test ride both the Sam and the Joe since I'm local to East Bay.  They were similar, but the Sam definitely felt more road like and more responsive in that way.  Being more of a road rider then, I decided to get the Sam.  It was a great bike but then my riding changed and I wanted something that could handle more rough trails and heavier touring but still feel good on the road.  So I went back to the Joe and I couldn't be happier.  I'm doing equal parts road, dirt, and touring and it's the perfect bike for all that.  I do think it's the closest to the bike for everything if you're willing to compromise  some on the outside edges of the spectrum.  For example, Joe feels great on the road if I use drop bars and stay on flat or light hills and descending.  It's not a great climbing bike though.  On the other end, it's good on most trails except for super technical, downhill type stuff which is fine for me because  I have no business on those trails.  And touring it is a dream, no complaints.  

So I'd suggest you just really look carefully at the type of riding you'll do and then make the decision based on that.  They are both great bikes.

Ryan, super happy Appaloosa rider

[Mike in BK]

Thanks all. Just the kind of insight I needed. Not having the opportunity to test either out makes it tough to decide.

[Al]

Hi Mike,

I've owned both. I currently own an Appaloosa (2023 production run), I sold my Hillborne (2017) to make the switch. There is more of a Cadillac-esque ride to the Appaloosa. The first time I rode it my brother-in-law and I took it out and kept commenting on how we'd never ridden a bike that felt so smooth and stable. The longer chain stays and geometry do give it that unique riding experience that so many people talk about. 

I made the switch for a variety of reasons (fit bigger tires, longer wheelbase ride, be able to carry more weight comfortably). All that being said, there are things I miss about the Sam and I think it might make more sense for the riding you're describing. The Sam is lighter and accelerates faster, it's also more responsive and 'springy'. For context, I used the Sam as a daily commuter in Seattle, grocery hauler, light trail shredder, and loaded multi-day tourer/bikecamper. It held up to all of those uses very well. The Sam is a very fun bike and I think it's as close to an all around bike as Rivendell makes.

Hopefully I didn't make you more confused. Like others have said they are both great bikes. 

Al

Grand Rapids

[Mike in BK]

Very helpful, Al. Thanks! If you look on Bike Insights and compare the 2017 (May) geometry of the first Atlantis MIT frames it's amazing how the 61cm Atlantis is so close to the current 57cm Hillborne geometry, just with more slope to the top tube for the Hillborne. The Hillborne definitely is an all-rounder and the Atlantis and Appaloosa moved toward heavy hauling or fat tire trail bike. The Appaloosa has lingered in my mind for so long because I was intrigued when Grant made the Charlie Gallop. On paper that looks like an Atlantis or Appaloosa, including a 70 degree head tube and extremely long chainstays, yet it's a lighter weight, lighter duty, road bike. It's so damn funky I can't imagine shelling out $1750 without having ridden one, and it isn't for trails. I just figured that this must be a geometry Grant thinks is the path forward for us who have decided to commit to sweptback bars. Check this Charlie - Joe composite below (sorry, I meant to line up the bottom brackets, but you see the similarities).

[Alex DeNooyer]

Oh thats super interesting. Cool to see those frames overlapping. Ya it does make it harder given how the certain frames have shifted over the years. Not being able to test out all the different bikes you’re trying to decide between is an unfortunate predicament, especially with how much money you’re spending. When I was buying my Hillborne Rivendell still had a dedicated dealer, Rivelo, in Portland. They had a number of Rivs on hand so you could test out different bikes.

Keep us posted on what you end up going with.

Al

On Nov 3, 2025, at 9:06 PM, Mike in BK <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:

Very helpful, Al. Thanks! If you look on Bike Insights and compare the 2017 (May) geometry of the first Atlantis MIT frames it's amazing how the 61cm Atlantis is so close to the current 57cm Hillborne geometry, just with more slope to the top tube for the Hillborne. The Hillborne definitely is an all-rounder and the Atlantis and Appaloosa moved toward heavy hauling or fat tire trail bike. The Appaloosa has lingered in my mind for so long because I was intrigued when Grant made the Charlie Gallop. On paper that looks like an Atlantis or Appaloosa, including a 70 degree head tube and extremely long chainstays, yet it's a lighter weight, lighter duty, road bike. It's so damn funky I can't imagine shelling out $1750 without having ridden one, and it isn't for trails. I just figured that this must be a geometry Grant thinks is the path forward for us who have decided to commit to sweptback bars. Check this Charlie - Joe composite below (sorry, I meant to line up the bottom brackets, but you see the similarities).

<bikes-mm.jpg>

On Monday, November 3, 2025 at 4:34:00 PM UTC-5 Al wrote:

Hi Mike,

I've owned both. I currently own an Appaloosa (2023 production run), I sold my Hillborne (2017) to make the switch. There is more of a Cadillac-esque ride to the Appaloosa. The first time I rode it my brother-in-law and I took it out and kept commenting on how we'd never ridden a bike that felt so smooth and stable. The longer chain stays and geometry do give it that unique riding experience that so many people talk about. 

I made the switch for a variety of reasons (fit bigger tires, longer wheelbase ride, be able to carry more weight comfortably). All that being said, there are things I miss about the Sam and I think it might make more sense for the riding you're describing. The Sam is lighter and accelerates faster, it's also more responsive and 'springy'. For context, I used the Sam as a daily commuter in Seattle, grocery hauler, light trail shredder, and loaded multi-day tourer/bikecamper. It held up to all of those uses very well. The Sam is a very fun bike and I think it's as close to an all around bike as Rivendell makes.

Hopefully I didn't make you more confused. Like others have said they are both great bikes. 

Al

Grand Rapids

On Monday, November 3, 2025 at 3:44:33 PM UTC-5 Mike in BK wrote:

Thanks all. Just the kind of insight I needed. Not having the opportunity to test either out makes it tough to decide.

On Saturday, November 1, 2025 at 6:19:46 PM UTC-4 rds...@gmail.com wrote:

Mike,

I had the same thoughts as you on the Appaloosa.  I started with a Sam before they were cantilever braked.  At the time, I was able to test ride both the Sam and the Joe since I'm local to East Bay.  They were similar, but the Sam definitely felt more road like and more responsive in that way.  Being more of a road rider then, I decided to get the Sam.  It was a great bike but then my riding changed and I wanted something that could handle more rough trails and heavier touring but still feel good on the road.  So I went back to the Joe and I couldn't be happier.  I'm doing equal parts road, dirt, and touring and it's the perfect bike for all that.  I do think it's the closest to the bike for everything if you're willing to compromise  some on the outside edges of the spectrum.  For example, Joe feels great on the road if I use drop bars and stay on flat or light hills and descending.  It's not a great climbing bike though.  On the other end, it's good on most trails except for super technical, downhill type stuff which is fine for me because  I have no business on those trails.  And touring it is a dream, no complaints.  

So I'd suggest you just really look carefully at the type of riding you'll do and then make the decision based on that.  They are both great bikes.

Ryan, super happy Appaloosa rider

On Saturday, November 1, 2025 at 6:54:14 AM UTC-7 Mike in BK wrote:

Excellent insight. Would be great to see a pic of the Sam. Maybe the Appaloosa will be your go-to and you can sell it to me, lol! Half kidding, but always like to see a well loved Sam if you have pics to post. Thanks!

On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 10:56:29 AM UTC-4 alltheworl...@gmail.com wrote:

FWIW, I'm in a similar position and own a Sam and it's an amazing bike: I live in Chicago, most of my miles are commuting, limestone paths, streets and roads. I have a Hillborne and it is dreamy for all that, plus loaded rides on paved/good condition gravel roads. I'd describe the ride as super comfortable, stable, agile, responsive but not at all twitchy. From what you describe you do and aspire to do, it seems pretty ideal. It's really a wonderful bike that's so versatile.

Having converted a vintage Rockhopper to be rivish in the past, there is just no comparison to the Sam. The Sam is so much livelier, more comfortable, beautiful, stable, and fun. That Rockhopper was a lot of fun and inexpensive, but to me, they are totally different rides.

Re chainstays: They're long by standards of most contemporary bikes, just not quite as long as an Atlantis or some other Rivs. Some folks on the list find that relative shortness to be an advantage, as it makes the bike more maneuverable both on an off trail. If you find yourself lifting your bike up stairs, onto trains, into elevators, you might appreciate the shorter wheelbase, too. I know I've been in some situations where I thought: good gravy this is a big bike (57 Sam from 2021); thank goodness I don't have one of the longer models!

All that said, I'm lusty for an Appaloosa, because I'm planning on some long distance dirt touring where I want big chunky tires, and a different setup than my Sam. But if that wasn't in the works, I wouldn't feel the need for any other bike.

On Friday, October 31, 2025 at 9:24:37 AM UTC-5 Mike in BK wrote:

Hi gang. I'm itching for my first Riv and decision time is upon me. In Brooklyn I'm rather relegated to paved rides, usually laps in the park. I was never fast, but now I'm rather slow. I don't have a computer on my bike and can't remember the last time I did. I'm tired of clipless pedals and lycra shorts. I want to indulge in "the art of taking it slow" and have a bike that expands on that magic sensation I feel when I ride my 1981 Trek 710 with 531 tubing and longer chainstays. Bigger tires for starters and Grant's progressive designs. I built a '93 Rockhopper with Toscos, a B17, and 2.2 tires for riding upstate and it's fun! That frame's position doesn't really work for longer rides and getting distance covered at a reasonable rate. I had the idea that I would go down to just one bike and pick my perfect do-it-all Riv. I don't think that's very realistic, so maybe the Trek will always have a use for strictly road rides. That leaves commuting, leisurely rides, and some gravel and trail riding when I can get to it. Hillborne you say? Not a bad idea, but I don't hear the same glowing reviews of "Cadillac" type ride, and supreme comfort like I do when folks write about Appaloosas, Platypi, and Charlie Gallops. Slack headtube; long chainstays; I'm buying in. The geo for the 61cm Charlie resembles the 57cm Appaloosa more than anything else. (I noticed the headtube of the Joe went from 72 degrees to 70 degrees not too long ago, maybe that started with the Sergio green run). I don't think the Charlie would be ideal for trails under my 200 lbs, so I'm getting interested in the Joe. Antonio at RBW advised me that the Joe might be too long and heavy for my needs and recommended the Sam. I'm not sure if I'm jazzed about the Sam the same way, and no less important for such an investment, the lime olive Joe coming up is a way preferable color to the offerings of the Hillbornes pre-selling next week. I'd buy a used olive Hillborne (57cm) but no one ever sells their Riv! Any feedback from folks riding recent issue Appaloosas and Hillbornes would be very welcome. Thanks!

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[Dan]

Great comparison!

For what it’s worth I think you have there a pre-2024 Appaloosa with its 72-degree head tube angle. The difference in front wheel offset to the Charlie (with its slacker head tube angle) is noticeable. 

And yes, with its 50mm tyre clearance I can’t help but feel that the Hillborne is now similar on paper to the earlier Atlanti and hence worth looking at for people pining over those frames!

[Mike in BK]

Hi Dan! Thanks for checking it out. That is a 70 degree HT Appaloosa in Sergio Green with the second set of hour glass rack mounts on the fork and the DT bosses. The angles don't match up because the pictures are probably from different points of view. I mashed a couple of pictures found online to see if the step over Charlie offered a noticeable amount clearance for when one falls on to the top tube. A very unscientific methodology, lol! 

[Dan]

Aha, clearly my sleuthing wasn't enough! You're right.

Nevertheless I think your point is spot on about the Charlie and Appaloosa being similar geometrically.

If only I could ride both...

[Mike Gillespie]

Last spring I sold my 1st generation Appaloosa to purchase a 2025 Atlantis. The older Appaloosa had an annoying toe clip overlap, which didn’t work well with larger tires and fenders. The ride on the Atlantis was like a revelation to me! Not only was the toe clip overlap gone, but the ride seemed vastly smoother (really hard to describe). The most significant difference in the two bikes was the change in head tube angle from 72° to 70°. The change was so significant that it perked my interest in adding a more roadie ride that replicates the smoothness of the Atlantis.  From the geometry charts, the only other model offering this geometry is the Charlie. Conveniently, another round of Charlies are now available and I’ll be further investigating this experiment in the next few months. So, call me a convert to the newer Rivendell geometry! It’s been something I’ve been slow to embrace since all my other bikes (traditional Rivendells, et.al.), seemed perfect already. The new Charlie was shipped out yesterday, so the wait will be over soon.

Mike

[J]

Analog Cycles has a size 60cm Appaloosa with some choice parts on sale for $3981 down from $5059 https://analogcycles.com/products/rivendell-joe-appaloosa-demo-60cm-sergios-green?

I think you'll have to reach out to them using this doc https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XaZno3uWcuIc7lNVYtQimxgbz6afF_BGNnsL-S9Inr0/edit?pli=1&gid=0#gid=0

[AppaLanta]

Confirming that the Appaloosa pictured in the mash-up above is a 2024 model (it's mine). It is a 57. So the geo is 70 HT, 71.5 ST, etc... chart is attached. After riding for a year, a would add a few observations. Overall I love it. The ride is super smooth and not twitchy, I can feel the frame soak up the bigger bumps when the 48mm tires don't do it already. It is long-steering, meaning I kind of lean into turns rather than turn into them. It is a do-all, sturdy and stately.  My only question is whether the tubing and overall set-up is too stout for me. It has Cliffhangers and tubes, a couple of racks, and a Choco-moose bar (which I love)... and with a front Acorn and at least one rear panier when commuting for the day, it is a big rig.  Sometimes I wonder about lighter Charlie frame and wheel set-up... a guy has to dream.

[Mike in BK]

David (AppaLanta). I sent you a PM to your email. I hope you saw that. Thanks so much for the insight.

[AppaLanta]

Return PM sent! Happy to answer any more questions about the build or ride.  Cheers

[Mike in BK]

Nice Mike! Those should compliment each other nicely. What size Charlie did you get? And what size Atlantis do you have? I REALLY want to hear what the Charlie is like from someone with experience on all these different Rivs. Thanks!

On Wednesday, November 5, 2025 at 8:41:33 AM UTC-5 Mike Gillespie wrote:

[Mike Gillespie]

I ordered a 61cm Charlie. My Atlantis is a 55cm.  With a PBH of 86.5cm I’m at the low end of the size range for the 61cm Charlie. I’m taking a bit of a leap of faith with the larger size. But, I’m hoping to maximize the Cadillac effect of the ride. You can read more about some of the pros and cons of my sizing deliberations posted on a previous thread here:

https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/tzjrP3_z2uI/m/idcyWqWxBAAJ
Mike

[Mike in BK]

Show us the pics when you get it built up, Mike. Not enough photos of the big Charlies out there. Congrats!