The first of what we hope are several very interesting reviews of the Clementine, from Lovely Bicycle

[Patrick Moore]

http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2016/09/clementine-belated-befuddled-bedazzled.html

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

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The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Stat crux dum volvitur orbis. (The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) Carthusian motto

It is we who change; He remains the same. Eckhart

Kinei hos eromenon. (It moves [all things] as the beloved.) Aristotle

[Jim D Massachusetts]

Annie bikes also gave her first impressions of her new Clementine.  https://anniebikes.blogspot.com

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Just read the Annie Bikes Blog and although the jury is out from her perspective it didn't read like the bike was a hit.  I guess that is why being able to ride a model is important prior to buying.  I hope she grows to love it but then everything is personal and subjective so just ride what you like, I guess.

[Richard Rios]

Seems like alot of her beef with the bike is about the bars. I tried and really wanted to like the Boscos but never did. I think a switch to albas might straighten things out as she did seem to enjoy the ride quality otherwise.

[pb]

The combination of a handlebar which has substantial rearward reach, with a long stem to move the bars forward, suddenly strikes me as a kind of silly conflicting redundancy.  Does the total tube length of the bars make them flexy?

~pb

[John Hawrylak]

The review was confusing, mushy, and not particularly objective.  Why RBW sent a bike to this reviewer is questionable.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ 

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 7:26:19 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Zed Martinez]

pb - I use mine with a shorter stem (10cm, not 12 or 13cm) and don't have any problem with flex. The long stems plus the Clem still slightly confuse me for most uses, the whole reason for the extra length of the Clem's effective top tube length I gathered from the long development history was so you could use the Boscos comfortably without having to use the longest stem going. My 52cm Clem with 10cm stem is about the same as using the Boscos as a 54cm Hunq with a 13cm stem on paper.

John - Which reviewer, Velouria (lovelybicycle) or Annie? Velouria has a weird history with Rivs, but she's probably the biggest blogger going in the non standard bike scene, she has ridden and reviewed a lot of bikes in the Clem demographic.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 7:26:19 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

I didn't see where she complained about the bar; she did mention that she lowered it considerably. At any rate, she promises to post further reports. I for one am chuffed that a respected bike blogger thinks so much of it.

On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 12:35 PM, Richard Rios <richard...@gmail.com> wrote:

Seems like alot of her beef with the bike is about the bars. I tried and really wanted to like the Boscos but never did. I think a switch to albas might straighten things out as she did seem to enjoy the ride quality otherwise.

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[Patrick Moore]

I suppose one could ask why Rivendell loaned her the bike. Let's see. Why? Let us count the many possible ways. Perhaps because she is a well known and well respected bike blogger; because she has reported about other Riv models; because she has a history of well considered opinions; because showcasing the Clem in Irelands emerald landscapes is good PR; I could go on and on and on.

I was really chuffed at the review, since "Velouria" has graduated toward road bikes and road riding over her 9 years of blogging. That her first impressions (and NOTE: she rode it all summer!) are positive makes me all the less skeptical of RIv's new "cruiser" designs.

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[Daniel D.]

She hasn't posted a review yet.   I liked her post ...

[Mark in Beacon]

I'm imagining John was referring to the review by anniebikes. I agree with Patrick in that Velouria builds and presents her thoughts well, and she is an all-around excellent writer --though of course I don't always 100 percent agree with her conclusions when I have firsthand experience of what she is writing about. I agree with John (if he was, as I suspect, referring to the annie review) in that it was vague--mainly focusing on her expectations not being met in the first five minutes (where did she read it was not a cruiser?!) and about rack choices and colorways.

If one is not used to this style of bicycle, it seems to me it would make sense to spend a little time with it. I eased myself in by building up a Le Tour mixte with Albatross bars, but the Clementine with Bullmoose Boscos took this body position to a whole nuther level, and I gave myself plenty of time to adapt. Though the ride quality--smooth, fun & relaxed but peppy when you hit the gas, great at carving the turns--was there from the get go.

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 7:52:07 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

I suppose one could ask why Rivendell loaned her the bike. Let's see. Why? Let us count the many possible ways. Perhaps because she is a well known and well respected bike blogger; because she has reported about other Riv models; because she has a history of well considered opinions; because showcasing the Clem in Irelands emerald landscapes is good PR; I could go on and on and on.

I was really chuffed at the review, since "Velouria" has graduated toward road bikes and road riding over her 9 years of blogging. That her first impressions (and NOTE: she rode it all summer!) are positive makes me all the less skeptical of RIv's new "cruiser" designs.

On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 4:23 PM, John Hawrylak <john.h...@verizon.net> wrote:

The review was confusing, mushy, and not particularly objective.  Why RBW sent a bike to this reviewer is questionable.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ 

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 7:26:19 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2016/09/clementine-belated-befuddled-bedazzled.html

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

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The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Stat crux dum volvitur orbis. (The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) Carthusian motto

It is we who change; He remains the same. Eckhart

Kinei hos eromenon. (It moves [all things] as the beloved.) Aristotle

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[John Hawrylak]

Zed

I was referring to the "Lovely Bicycle" review.  Frankly, the write ups by the list members are better.  The review seemed to have wandered.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Zed Martinez]

John, she does say it's not the review itself. Just some initial thoughts since she's already had it so long while she tries to finish figuring out what makes it ride like it does without having to use the word 'magic,' and also to test it's haulin' abilities a bit more. Personally, I can say with 3000 miles on mine I agree with everything she's said in those initial impressions. I look forward to her formal review, they have historically been pretty good. It was her review of the Simcoe Roadster Signature that convinced me to plunk on one a couple years back for riding with my then-fiancée instead of cheaping down to the (then much better than now) Trek Allant for that use.

I will go ahead and go where she won't though, the Clem is magic. It's my heaviest and upright bike. It feels like I'm going slower and more relaxed every time I ride it, but my times are all as good as they were on any other bike I've been through, sometimes faster, and I'm happier riding it farther than I am any of the others. Mine's been down this week as I have the front wheel rebuilt, so, I've been riding my original commuter and my Simcoe, and they both just feel a little... meh, now. I think the Clem's ruining other bikes for me.

[John Hawrylak]

Zed and others

I read the "Annie" review for a comparison to Lovely Bicycle.  IMHO Annies review is significantly better than "Lovely Bicycle", not as cutsy, not as wandering.

Annie's review got to the point:  'I don't like the bars, but the rest seems good"  I understand.  Suggest calling GP and ask him what bars would work better for her.

Lovely Bicycle wandered and seemed to want to impress the reader with "clever" writing versus factual reporting.  Frankly, the RBW blugs are much better and you know they are selling.

Annie BOUGHT the Clementine.  "Lovely Bicycle" was LOANED the bicycle.  IMHO, this makes the Annie review much more credible.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ,  perhaps a little too critical today

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 6:57:18 PM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:

[john.h...@verizon.net]

Zed

Thanks for the clarifications.  You said everything in 1 paragraph.  Lovely Bicycle took more than 2 pages, along with pics, did not approach your review, and still needs more time!!!John   One got to question LB on the length of time.  All summer, and the review is not done???  GMAB.

I think the RBWs are great, although I don't have one. My 88 Panasonic Schwinn Voyaguer rides fine and is set up in a RBW fashion.

What do you think accounts for the fact your times are as good as or better than your other bikes, and why do you enjoy the Clem more?????

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

 

 

 

On 09/08/16, Zed Martinez<iamzedm...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

John, she does say it's not the review itself. Just some initial thoughts since she's already had it so long while she tries to finish figuring out what makes it ride like it does without having to use the word 'magic,' and also to test it's haulin' abilities a bit more. Personally, I can say with 3000 miles on mine I agree with everything she's said in those initial impressions. I look forward to her formal review, they have historically been pretty good. It was her review of the Simcoe Roadster Signature that convinced me to plunk on one a couple years back for riding with my then-fiancée instead of cheaping down to the (then much better than now) Trek Allant for that use.

I will go ahead and go where she won't though, the Clem is magic. It's my heaviest and upright bike. It feels like I'm going slower and more relaxed every time I ride it, but my times are all as good as they were on any other bike I've been through, sometimes faster, and I'm happier riding it farther than I am any of the others. Mine's been down this week as I have the front wheel rebuilt, so, I've been riding my original commuter and my Simcoe, and they both just feel a little... meh, now. I think the Clem's ruining other bikes for me.

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 9:01:44 PM UTC-4, John Hawrylak wrote:

Zed

I was referring to the "Lovely Bicycle" review.  Frankly, the write ups by the list members are better.  The review seemed to have wandered.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 6:57:18 PM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:

pb - I use mine with a shorter stem (10cm, not 12 or 13cm) and don't have any problem with flex. The long stems plus the Clem still slightly confuse me for most uses, the whole reason for the extra length of the Clem's effective top tube length I gathered from the long development history was so you could use the Boscos comfortably without having to use the longest stem going. My 52cm Clem with 10cm stem is about the same as using the Boscos as a 54cm Hunq with a 13cm stem on paper.

John - Which reviewer, Velouria (lovelybicycle) or Annie? Velouria has a weird history with Rivs, but she's probably the biggest blogger going in the non standard bike scene, she has ridden and reviewed a lot of bikes in the Clem demographic.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 7:26:19 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2016/09/clementine-belated-befuddled-bedazzled.html

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

****************************************************************************************

The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Stat crux dum volvitur orbis. (The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) Carthusian motto

It is we who change; He remains the same. Eckhart

Kinei hos eromenon. (It moves [all things] as the beloved.) Aristotle

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[Mark in Beacon]

My bad, sorry for assuming. But in that case, you probably did not get to this part of her post:

Despite the epic length of this post, this is not yet a review. And the blog post title does admit that the bike befuddled and bedazzled her.

I look forward to her actual review. I enjoy her insights and her precise but casual writing style.

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 9:01:44 PM UTC-4, John Hawrylak wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Well, I think L B did a very good job with her preliminary review; I don't understand the animus. And I for one look forward very much to subsequent impressions. The "annie" review, on the other hand, told me very little.

I do have a personal stake in this, which is why I posted the L B review. I may eventually buy a Clem.

[Mark in Beacon]

I have the exact opposite take. Annie is "beside herself" after a five minute ride around the block because she "expected to immediately fall in love with the Clementine...but unfortunately the upright stance reminded me of a cruiser"  What Clem owner opinions was she reading that did not mention its cruise factor? And what does any of that mean in terms of telling me something about the ride quality?

 I am much more likely to listen to the opinions of a reviewer who spends a good amount of time with a bike before pronouncing judgement. Despite prepping myself by building up a Schwinn Le Tour mixte with Albatross bars a year or so before getting my Clementine, the Bosco Bullmoose were significantly different in terms of body position that I gave myself 6 months with them before making any swaps. But the "cruise" ride quality--fun, relaxed, fluid handling, but responsive when the pedals get pushed hard--was there from the start. It is this surprising blend that give the Clementine (or Clem) that addictive quality. Plus in person, they are substantial and beautiful machines, despite lacking the (once) signature Rivendell lugwork.

[Zed Martinez]

John, I think I mentioned somewhere else on here in one of my own reviews of the Clem (which, I won't repost here so as not to excessively hijack the thread, but you should be able to find them and a link to my longer write up if you search for'em), but, to at least answer your questions quickly:

One thing is, there's only so hard I can push myself on a bike before the energy demands and exertion leave me a sort of walking zombie. So, there's a certain cruising speed I'm good at maintaining and it's a rare day I feel spirited enough to really 'push' myself past it, so, there's probably some performance I've left on the table with previous, sportier bikes. That's part of it. Another part is I built my Clem from frame, and I'm using VO's good sealed bearing hubs and Compass tires, so, honestly, my Clem has the best wheels of them all. Add in the sensible gearing that works well for my flat homeland and the 650b wheels that let me spin up from a start really fast, and that's most of the difference. I mostly commute, so, coming fast off a stop changes my commute times considerably more than top speed ever will.

As for why I like it, once I learned to cope with the Boscos and work with them, not against them, I found I had a bike with three entirely different riding postures. I can be totally upright (which I like on calm mornings, or when I'm tired, or jockeying in traffic), I can have a more relaxed stance more akin to my roadster (still upright, but enough lean to engage all my leg muscles and get to the optimum cruising speed), and I can tuck down to the flat near the stem clamp for a position very similar to a performance hybrid (which is really great when I actually feel like putting some effort out, since it's really rather aero and gives me a good weight distribution for putting force behind my legs). Combine that with how the upright stance plus the long chain stays are really stellar for climbing, the relaxed stance at the bend is the most comfortable one I've ever had for mashing out of the saddle, and the long wheelbase and fat tires just wiping away basically all surface bumps and you can begin to guess why going back to a bike that will at most offer me two of those riding positions and half the float gets less appealing by the day...

[Patrick Moore]

I have to repeat my enthusiasm for the L B report, because over the several years that I've read her blog, I've been convinced that she tries hard to do justice to pro's and con's. Velouria/Constance has shown a very definite preference for road bikes (I know she rides other things, but her real loves seem to be road bikes), and that she should at first impression like the Clem as much as she does goes a very long way to removing the remnants of my skepticism about the Clem, that listers' reviews had already undermined. In short, if L B likes the Clem, I daresay I'd like it too -- much to my surprise.

[Shawn Granton]

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 6:47:34 PM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:

I have the exact opposite take. Annie is "beside herself" after a five minute ride around the block because she "expected to immediately fall in love with the Clementine...but unfortunately the upright stance reminded me of a cruiser"  What Clem owner opinions was she reading that did not mention its cruise factor? And what does any of that mean in terms of telling me something about the ride quality?... I am much more likely to listen to the opinions of a reviewer who spends a good amount of time with a bike before pronouncing judgement.

Well, the title of Annie's review in question is "Rivendell Clementine - First Impressions" (emphasis mine). So this wasn't supposed to be a full-on objective review of the bike after riding it for weeks or months, just her "first impressions". I'm sure we'll get a more substantial review after more riding has happened (and a possible handlebar switch.) So let's not be so harsh on her. Besides, she ends it in a positive note with this: "For now, I just need to get to know my Clementine. I am confident she has potential."

-Shawn

 

[Mark in Beacon]

Good points, Shawn. I didn't mean to be harsh on Annie's first impressions while defending Lovely Bicycle's non-review! And I don't care so much even if they end up not liking the bike (though really, how could that be ;^) just that any reviewer give it a fair shot. Especially with a bike that is, in some ways, a bit of a game changer for many riders. Sounds like both gals will have more to say about their Clementines.

[Garth]

   Spot on pb !!!   I also feel the same way about the tallux stem, using a really long quill but with a negative rise to get high-er bars. Head scratcher ........  (anyone please save the rationales...).  

    It seems the me the Clem would also be better served having more slope in the tt to get the bars higher rather than resorting to really high rise bars in addition to a high rise stem.  As I recall the Riv design thing used to be to design a bike so that you did not need alot of seatpost or stem length..... not sure .....
The few sizes fit many idea fails in this regard. Great to sell bikes and keep minimal inventory but odd for some customers.

   As for reviews of the Clem, so what if someone does or does not prefer it ?  It's just a preference of that person and has nothing to do with the one who reads it. Feeling offended or boasted by it , both are but vanity, nothing blowing in wind.  How can nothing blow in the wind you ask ?  ..... exactly ! 

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

She's working at GRRM's writing pace! We want our book/review now!!!

[Tim]

Patrick, I've never heard the term "chuffed" before...is that an ABQ thing? To stay on topic, I just had my hip replaced week and one day I'll get a Clem L (I guess there are no more Clementines, right?) or Betty or Yves or such. Before the surgery it really hurt to swing my leg over all my bikes. I don't expect any problems mounting for many years (I'm 55 now) but eventually...

[Steve Palincsar]

A Britishism. 

chuffed

adjective \ˈchəft\

Simple Definition of chuffed

• : very pleased

Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

Full Definition of chuffed

British

1. :  quite pleased :  delighted

[Lynne Cooney]

LB always makes me want one. She sold me on the Brompton and three years later, it would still win the "you only get to keep one bicycle" contest. Now I really want a Clementine. But I already have a Retrovelo, which was why I went for a Cheviot instead.

Curse you, Velouria. I want one.

[Chris Birkenmaier]

I hear you.  The way she writes about bikes makes me want to run out and purchase whatever it is she is discussing.  I bought a Mike Flannigan/ANT bike after seeing the one she commissioned from him.  It was/is a gorgeous bike.  However, it kind of looks like that bike did not make the journey over to Ireland with her.  Been wondering where it ended up.  Regardless, I continue to enjoy my ANT truss bike.

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

ME TOO re my ANT Truss Bike

Sent from my iPhone

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[Wally Estrella]

Me too and three on the ANT Truss.  I loved it, but ended up trading it off to get an actual Iver Johnson truss and other stuff.

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[Chris Birkenmaier]

Don't want to hijack this thread but just wanted to add that my ANT truss ended up being toward the end of his individual production although he now does a touring bike on the side.  Now back to Clems!

[masmojo]

I think Rivendell sent her one to test, because clearly it's highly influenced if not by her, then by the types of bikes she enjoys. When I got mine, my very first thought was "Velouria would love this" as far as upright bikes go it's got just about everything she might want, especially with a rack & dynamo lights. I think she may be a little conflicted on it, she's already commented on it's "magic" qualities, but maybe her objectivity has gone straight out the window!? Sounds as though she is trying to wait until she's found something that's not too gushy. "I really loved this bike, but . . . " LOL
I guess we'll see!?

[Patrick Moore]

I can't decide between a Clem and a 10 lb Calfee fixed gear gofast, with 32 mm EL Compass tires run tubeless. Choices, choices.

(Seriously, had I more $$, both would be on my short list. Perhaps I should aim for a Calfee Clementine?)

On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 9:22 AM, masmojo <mas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I think Rivendell sent her one to test, because clearly it's highly influenced if not by her, then by the types of bikes she enjoys. When I got mine, my very first thought was "Velouria would love this" as far as upright bikes go it's got just about everything she might want, especially with a rack & dynamo lights. I think she may be a little conflicted on it, she's already  commented on it's "magic" qualities, but maybe her objectivity has gone straight out the window!? Sounds as though she is trying to wait until she's found something that's not too gushy. "I really loved this bike, but . . . " LOL
I guess we'll see!?

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