Albastache + brifters

[Ashwath Akirekadu]

When I wondered about usability of brifters on Albastache/Mustache type bars sometime ago, I couldn't find much info on interwebs. 

I decided to get an Albastache anyway and give it a try.  Turns out it works ok with Campy brifters.  Shimano/SRAM brifters aren't likely as suitable since  they don't have the thumb button. 

I was happy to trade slightly reduced brifter usability for increased usable handlebar positions that Albastache offers (in 3 years of riding this road bike, I had never  felt the need to use the lower part of drop bars. I did, however,  frequently looked for ways to be upright).  Folks optimizing for speed may feel differently.   

Next experiment was handlebar height.  

I've never felt uncomfortable to grab a spoon or use fingers, if I thought those options were more optimal when everyone else was using chopsticks or forks.  Proliferation of skinny fashion didn't make me change my jeans.  And so on.  I rank usability/practicality way higher than coolness.   Still, when it came to bike, somehow, I wasn't at ease raising handlebar above saddle level, regardless of how stupid (and pain-in-the-neck-inducing) the default setup felt.  Last weekend I raised the bar like no one was watching.  Picture attached.  It does look more comical than giraffe and lama, IMO.  After several short and couples of long rides, I'm concluding that this is how it is going to be now on.  Don't care if other bikers in the neighborhood cringe.  My neck is already thanking me. 

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[Patrick Moore]

I'm glad the bar is comfortable, but it's too high: first, is it safe? I ask that question very seriously. With the extender and then the long quill toward the end of its travel, you are going to torque those joints far more than usual, and perhaps to the point of some sort of failure.

Second, if you want a bar that high, you really need a very different frame, one with a much higher head tube. When you go to such an extreme measure as on your Bianchi, you know right away that you are trying to make a silk purse out of something else.

And third, there are other ways of getting torso/neck/arm/hand comfort than merely by raising the bar to an extreme height. It goes against the imagination, but often (I don't say always), putting your saddle further back, so that your core takes over the work of holding up your shoulders and head, is the first step in setting up a bicycle comfortably. You'll notice that bikes designed for very high bars, like the Dutch city bike, also have very, very slack seat tube angles, and I don't think that this is merely coincidence.

All of this is entirely removed from any question of a "racing" position. (Note too that the drop bar design is among the oldest around because it has been proved one of the most comfortable when properly set up.)

I chose the 2 images below at random and only afterward noticed that both show Velo Orange bikes.

I don't mean merely to be critical. You will do yourself a real favor by finding either a more effective way to get comfort, or else, a very different design that does safely allow such an extreme bar position.

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Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

****************************************************************************************

The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Stat crux dum volvitur orbis. (The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) Carthusian motto

It is we who change; He remains the same. Eckhart

Kinei hos eromenon. (It moves [all things] as the beloved.) Aristotle

[Patrick Moore]

Whoops! sorry, I didn't mean to post the same photo twice. Still working on cupa coffee #1.

And of course:

​

[Clayton]

My Dirt Drop stem brings the bottom of the drops up to where I ride. I ride mostly on the drops. It is about the height of most drop tops, about seat height. I never understood why someone (except racers) would run drop bars so low, that the drops are basically unusable (disclaimer; I have had three back surgeries). The bar tops are way up there and give my back a break when needed. 

Clayton (Bend)

[Ashwath Akirekadu]

Patrick,

I'll play with saddle position as well (as I said, I'm experimenting).  Thanks for the idea.  Although my issue is less with arms and more with the neck.  Using typical drop bar position feels similar (to my neck) to watching a TV mounted 25 ft above the floor during the entire ride.  

Also thanks for bringing up safety part.  It might be a significant factor for some riders out there who are thinking using stem extender.  For my use though it does not *feel* like there is a safety issue.  The upright position significantly reduces the amount of weight that goes on the handlebar. Also, my rides are mostly on flat roads.  I never exceed 15mph.    With the stem and the extender both tucked all the way down, the setup is probably sturdy enough.  (which won't be the case I were to be climbing hills or riding fast downhill).

A better suitable bike frame is on the way, btw.  I've ordered an Appaloosa frame.  Nitto Dirt Drop stem + ChocoNORM bar combination works great for me on that (based on the test ride).   I acquired a Raleigh Record Ace from a friend, which I'm planning on using for occasional fast rides.

Chees,

-Ash

On Wednesday, 28 December 2016 07:14:03 UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

I'm glad the bar is comfortable, but it's too high: first, is it safe? I ask that question very seriously. With the extender and then the long quill toward the end of its travel, you are going to torque those joints far more than usual, and perhaps to the point of some sort of failure.

Second, if you want a bar that high, you really need a very different frame, one with a much higher head tube. When you go to such an extreme measure as on your Bianchi, you know right away that you are trying to make a silk purse out of something else.

And third, there are other ways of getting torso/neck/arm/hand comfort than merely by raising the bar to an extreme height. It goes against the imagination, but often (I don't say always), putting your saddle further back, so that your core takes over the work of holding up your shoulders and head, is the first step in setting up a bicycle comfortably. You'll notice that bikes designed for very high bars, like the Dutch city bike, also have very, very slack seat tube angles, and I don't think that this is merely coincidence.

All of this is entirely removed from any question of a "racing" position. (Note too that the drop bar design is among the oldest around because it has been proved one of the most comfortable when properly set up.)

I chose the 2 images below at random and only afterward noticed that both show Velo Orange bikes.

I don't mean merely to be critical. You will do yourself a real favor by finding either a more effective way to get comfort, or else, a very different design that does safely allow such an extreme bar position.

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 9:35 PM, Ashwath Akirekadu <ash...@gmail.com> wrote:

When I wondered about usability of brifters on Albastache/Mustache type bars sometime ago, I couldn't find much info on interwebs. 

I decided to get an Albastache anyway and give it a try.  Turns out it works ok with Campy brifters.  Shimano/SRAM brifters aren't likely as suitable since  they don't have the thumb button. 

I was happy to trade slightly reduced brifter usability for increased usable handlebar positions that Albastache offers (in 3 years of riding this road bike, I had never  felt the need to use the lower part of drop bars. I did, however,  frequently looked for ways to be upright).  Folks optimizing for speed may feel differently.   

Next experiment was handlebar height.  

I've never felt uncomfortable to grab a spoon or use fingers, if I thought those options were more optimal when everyone else was using chopsticks or forks.  Proliferation of skinny fashion didn't make me change my jeans.  And so on.  I rank usability/practicality way higher than coolness.   Still, when it came to bike, somehow, I wasn't at ease raising handlebar above saddle level, regardless of how stupid (and pain-in-the-neck-inducing) the default setup felt.  Last weekend I raised the bar like no one was watching.  Picture attached.  It does look more comical than giraffe and lama, IMO.  After several short and couples of long rides, I'm concluding that this is how it is going to be now on.  Don't care if other bikers in the neighborhood cringe.  My neck is already thanking me. 

--

www.freerice.com

play and feed a hungry person

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[Ashwath Akirekadu]

Clayton- This type of cockpit is something I'd want to try at some point.  What stem is that?  My Nitto Dirt Drop does not seem that tall.  Are you using an extender?

[clayton bailey]

Ashwath,

No extender...just a long quill. This is a newish one I ordered through Ben's Cycle; a 100mm Nitto Dirt Drop Stem. The quill is longer than my old dirt drop stem (bought it in 98 or so), but not by much.  

Clayton (Bend)

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[Patrick Moore]

Please post photos of the built Appaloosa and of the Ace. The Appaloosa is one of the Rivs I'd like to own, along with (in order of seriousness) the Roadeo, the Hunq, the Atlantis, and the Legolas. The A would come in about here.

And who doesn't want to own a new/old Raleigh?

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[Ash A]

Rode the Raleigh 21 miles to work today.  My neck is not a happy camper today.  Can't wait to ride like I want to ride once the Appaloosa arrives!

I'm going to try the seat adjustment you suggested before I ride back.

Here's picture of the Raleigh (more https://goo.gl/photos/Ha4YXYY7WoPgZgVw8)

-Ash

[clayton bailey]

The L.D stem.

$ 125.00 The L.D stem. This is our version of the Limp dick stem which was designed by Charlie Cunningham. This steam is designed to ge...

This might help Ash, on the Raleigh...

I bought one, to build a bike around...lol. 

Clayton (Bend)

On Friday, January 6, 2017 3:07 PM, Ash A <ash...@gmail.com> wrote:

Rode the Raleigh 21 miles to work today.  My neck is not a happy camper today.  Can't wait to ride like I want to ride once the Appaloosa arrives!

I'm going to try the seat adjustment you suggested before I ride back.

Here's picture of the Raleigh (more https://goo.gl/photos/ Ha4YXYY7WoPgZgVw8)

-Ash

On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 07:04:21 UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

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Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

****************************** ****************************** ****************************

The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Stat crux dum volvitur orbis. (The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) Carthusian motto

It is we who change; He remains the same. Eckhart

Kinei hos eromenon. (It moves [all things] as the beloved.) Aristotle

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[Bill in Roswell GA]

Ash,

Great that you ordered an Appa, but no reason to put the old horse out to pasture when there is really nothing wrong with the bike other than it has not been setup to fit your current situation. 

I had a neck problem develop after sitting at a computer for years combined with riding a racing setup with bars well below saddle. My neck could no longer take being in the "crane neck" position. 

 After much research about bike fit and discovering that traditionally cyclists did not ride a racing setup but used what is now referred to as a French Fit.That helped me learn how to make most properly sized frames bit me comfortably. Properly size frame, stem length/angle to get proper/comfortable position on bike. Saddle position is much more a personal preference and should not be used in an attempt to get a bike to fit and even then, saddle shape and angle have a lot to do with being comfortable.

That is to say, your bars are too low, partly because the stem is flipped into the downward position. That stem is a 6 degree stem, so flipping it over will raise the bars a few mm.

 Using a 17 degree rise stem would raise your bars a good bit. You could even get a longish 25 degree rise stem that would give the dirt drop stem effect. There are online stem calculators that will give you the amount of vertical and horizontal difference that stem length/rise can give. 

Enjoy the new Appa with Alba bars, but make the Raleigh fit properly with the correct stem. More bikes is a good thing!

Cheers,

Bill in wintery Roswell, GA

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 6:08:35 PM UTC-5, Ash A wrote:

Rode the Raleigh 21 miles to work today.  My neck is not a happy camper today.  Can't wait to ride like I want to ride once the Appaloosa arrives!

I'm going to try the seat adjustment you suggested before I ride back.http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/01/04/508213332/105-year-old-cyclist-rides-14-miles-in-an-hour-en-route-to-a-world-recordro

[Dave Johnston]

Here is a good stem calculator.

http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/stem.php

Velo Orange makes an LD stem that is much less than Crusts $125 and has a double bolt removable face plate to make stem swaps easier.

[Mark in Beacon]

Hi Ash. Before you make the seat adjustment, you may want to turn the seatpost around to its proper position. You have your saddle slammed all the way back already, but your seatpost is facing the wrong way.

Also, like Patrick, I would also question the safety of that setup, but for a different reason. If, as you say, the extender is inserted fully, that is a mighty short head tube, and you may be creating this situation, described here by Sheldon Brown:

Danger!

Note: Steerers are butted at the bottom, so the hole in the steerer is constant-diameter until near the bottom, then the walls taper inward in the butted section.

It is vitally important that the steerer extender (or stem) is not inserted so far that the wedge is installed where the steerer is narrowing, or it could come loose unpredictably.

When this happens, only the edge/corner of the quill or wedge contacts the steerer, and it is trying to "grab" a slanted surface.

This is sometimes a problem on smaller frames if you try to insert the stem or a stem extender too far down into the steerer.

The stem may also loosen unexpectedly if the steerer has been bulged out by overtightening the expander or wedge.

I highly suspect that your Raleigh setup may fall under the above scenario. Even on flats at 15mph, having your handlebars disconnect can be disconcerting.

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 6:08:35 PM UTC-5, Ash A wrote:

[Ash A]

Bill,

Thanks for this idea.  Got myself a raiser stem.  Rode it for couple of hours today.   It was way better!

Feels like I need it another inch higher.  However this setup is something I can live with.

Considered getting a steerer extender.  It would need changing cables and re-wrapping bar tape.  Too much hassle. 

[Ash A]

Hi Mark,

Reg seat position, DOH!  Apparently while struggling to install the saddle I turned the seat post around!  Didn't ever realize.  I felt like something was wrong, but figured it is something to do with the handlebar experiment.  Thanks for that.

Appreciate you alerting me about the stem position.  I had read Sheldon's article a while ago.  While tweaking the Bianchi I had totally forgotten about it.  The Bianchi is for sale, however, I will pull the stem slightly up for the safety of the next owner.

Cheers,

-Ash