Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Tim]

Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

[Mojo]

I call out "I'm passing on your left." Then nearly immediately ring my bell as I approach, with my left hand at the ready on the front/effective brake lever. That mostly works.

[Christopher Cote]

I usually do the "on your left" thing only if they're blocking the whole path. I recently bought one of the bells Rivendell sells. It's so pleasant and kind, but doesn't move people out of the way like a good yell. The other day I passed a jogger, and just as I got alongside her, she wheeled around to head the other way. We didn't collide, and there wasn't really any chance of it, but I really startled her. She yelled "nice bell" as if to mean that I should have rung a bell. I guess she was right. I'm going to try and be better about ringing at everyone now.

On another note, I bought the Riv bell specifically because they said it was prone to ringing itself on bumpy trails. I want that for when I'm on 2-way singletrack. The bell I got doesn't ring itself, ever, though. I even bought the extra heavy clapper, which turned out to be identical to the stock one. Major bummer.

Chris

[Deacon Patrick]

The other day I had to negotiate MUP passage with an 8 point buck and his does. We just watched each other for what felt like several minutes. Then they went into the woods.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 6:33:06 PM UTC-7, Tim wrote:

[ted]

I try and ring my bell after I've moved over hoping that the audio queue indicates which side I am on.

I tend to think the need for warning diminishes as the relative speed decreases and separation increases. But some people may not be happy no mater what you do.

More generally these sort of issues are part of why I generally prefer to stay off MUPs, and really try to stay off MUPs that are heavily used.

[eflayer]

Use your mouth in a different way. Down bike paths, when I see walkers out front, I say "beep" "beep" in a rather pleasant and playful and loud enough way that works nearly every time the first time. If you say it early enough, you can watch them move whichever direction they choose before you ever get there. Their response is sort of like making eye contact with drivers at a 4 way stop sign. Folks with ear buds on multi use trails deserve little mercy...bikers or walker or runners. Beeping is more interpersonal than ON YOUR LEFT :). 

[Joe Bernard]

More conversational with families works well for me. I slow up and start talking, "Hi, you're fine where you are, I'm gonna come around on your left." This seems to give people time to feel like they have control of their situation. "On your left" tends to cause a 'fight or flight' reaction, like they're under pressure and don't know what to do. The less abrupt conversation works much better for me.

[Ashwath Akirekadu]

I have always wondered this. Alerting pedestrians felt like I was annoying them 99% of the times to avoid that 1% chance of collision.  I love the beep beep suggestion.  Whenever my toddler son is riding with me, I'm going to delegate beep beep responsibility to him.  Natural fit.  Win-win!

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

More conversational with families works well for me. I slow up and start talking, "Hi, you're fine where you are, I'm gonna come around on your left." This seems to give people time to feel like they have control of their situation. "On your left" tends to cause a 'fight or flight' reaction, like they're under pressure and don't know what to do. The less abrupt conversation works much better for me.

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[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Most seasoned MUP users are OK with passing without warning, but they appreciate it when I do warn them, and especially if the relatively velocity is fairly low (10mph?). I try to do so gently, with rings of the "polite" Japanese brass bells at 40 feet, then 20 feet, and finally just when I am passing. The intent is to offer them a sense of progression, so they are not startled. Sometimes I get a "thanks!" in reciprocation. Of course, one can't help those who have earbuds on, but I've found that those aren't the ones with the nasty attitudes.

The ones with unfriendly attitudes are usually the ones who are new, and are frightened and maybe startled by bicycles passing by (99.99% safely, but they don't care). So I try to be as obvious as I can when I see peds who don't keep to a particular "lane". I'll ring my bell (most of my bicycles have one), change my gears or do something fairly noisy; strangely enough, I don't typically yell whatever it is we're supposed to yell.

For the record, I don't particularly see a need to alert others when passing on a MUP (do we do that in cars?), but it is nice to do, and who doesn't appreciate an inexpensive brass bell jewelry with some patina?

Interestingly enough, in these winter months, for my commuting hours, my headlight usually supersedes the need for bell ringing.

[Christopher Murray]

I think you got it right with "you just can't win" bc no matter what you decide you will never please 100% of the people. Someone is ALWAYS going to be upset regardless of what you do (ring, on your left, beep beep, etc.). Be confident that you are doing the best, most polite, respectful thing and just let the haters hate. It is them, not you.

Cheers!
Chris

[Ian A]

I would say always ring the bell.  I've been relegated to walking the last few weeks following hernia surgery and I've had a number of cyclists pass me without warning.  I assume they feel that there's enough room that there's no chance of a collision and that I'm walking in a predictable fashion, but it scares the beejeesus out of me when I think I'm alone and suddenly there is someone passing me at speed.  I don't admonish, having been guilty of it myself many times, but I do feel annoyance.  I have a similar reaction when a car passes me too close when I'm riding.

Ian A/Canada (burning off some Karma).

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 6:33:06 PM UTC-7, Tim wrote:

[Tim]

Thanks for that perspective, Ian. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure that I've been on an MUP as anything but a cyclist. Back in the day when I was a runner (thus the fake knees today) I ran on the sidewalk, and today I don't really go for walks, so I've really only cycled on the paths, and haven't experienced walking with a bike coming by. Incidentally, there are 2 bells on the Riv order that should be arriving today, one for the Roadeo and one for the GFs Sam.

One other thing: When I was working in Louisville, there is a wonderful pedestrian/bike bridge (old converted RR) across the Ohio River. On nice days it is really, really busy. There were a couple of cyclists on one of those days, and the woman was incessantly ringing her bell. To me, that was the same as hollering "Coming through, clear a path for me!" I kind of thought that was rude, as if she felt by ringing the bell constantly it gave her the right of way. I rode across the bridge all of the time but on days like that, you just had to be very patient and really, really slow. There's way too much going on. But on the other hand, she was going slow, not ringing the bell and blowing by people, so I should give her a break too.

Peace,
Tim "who probably shouldn't cast stones" Kirch

[Ron Mc]

no, I don't.  

Bell.  I always ring mine twice.  As soon as I think be heard, and again just before I pass.  I usually get thanked for it by the pedestrian, and people who need to adjust their width and do so will get thanked by me.  

Dogs on leash, as much warning as possible.  Out of control masters, I may ring 6 or 7 times.  

For the rest, especially earbudworld and always with children, anticipate panic stop.  

[Ron Mc]

Bike bells are essential for deer.  They know where you are, they know your speed, and usually stop in their tracks.  My hilly neighborhood has a huge deer herd.  I've also been descending 40 mph from the Guadalupe/Pedernales divide and had a charging buck otherwise intersecting me stop dead in its tracks at the sound of my bell.  

[Ron Mc]

fair warning, There is a class of runners out there who will intentionally widen themselves when a bike is trying to pass.  I don't know if it's something kicked around in running bulletin boards, but it is an intentional act, pressing right of way, and seemingly wanting to force the bicycle to stop or leave the path.  

[Garth]

I was going to offer yet another "solution" but man oh man, it is quite apparent to me that the only real "solution" is to never be a problem in the first place, hence no solutions either as they are 2 sides of a same coin.  For all the solving ever solved, problems are as many as ever .....not one thing hss changed.

So Tim, just ride and enjoy the day :)

[Rusty Click]

I believe that you should always signal when passing on multi use trails.  It is often 'required' by the trail rules, and it is certainly common courtesy whether it is written on a sign or not.

Signaling could be verbal, or a bell.  Just because you are the only two people on the trail, and the pedestrian is far right (with or without pet), and you plan on cruising by on the far left, doesn't mean it is OK to not signal.  The pedestrian could be on a bluetooth headset getting instructions from their spouse, or paying attention to the dog who is paying attention to the squirrel, or engrossed in the social media wonders of their phone.  You just don't know, so call out, or ring the bell, or both.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 8:33:06 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:

[Les Lammers]

I've had that happen on trails in Big Cypress and am considering one of these: http://www.mtbbell.com/ 

[Jon Dukeman,central Colorado]

I find that using my bell that I bought from Rivendell gets a better response than :"on your left" because the bell is more audible at a farther distance giving the hiker/walker more warning.

The bell either gets a wave, a smile, or a smile and a thank you!

Jon

[Steve Palincsar]

Another vote for bells here.  Where I live, riding from home (i.e., without driving to a remote ride start) is impossible without riding on one of the most popular MUPs in the country (so much for avoiding the problem by not riding there) and especially near the District of Columbia many of the walkers are foreign tourists who don't understand English.  A bell is a universal symbol, understood everywhere.  But Tim's right about many people not noticing, no matter what the warning: runners lost in their own heads, people listening to music - they're just not paying attention.

[Kevin Lindsey]

I can tell that this is going to be a long-lived discussion.
My main route takes me on two relatively popular bike paths, both of which require that the cyclist make a noise before passing.  While the bell is a pleasant option, I found that it often doesn't penetrate through to those who are plugged in or otherwise distracted.  Further, it's not clear to me that all foreign cultures recognize a bike bell for what it is and means, and we have lots and lots of foreigners on our bike paths here in the Washington, D.C. area.  Also, as one of those who can't easily tell his left from his right, I find "on your left!" to be a chore, and I know what would happen if I were to try and pass someone who also is latitudinally challenged or who doesn't speak English.  Instead, I yell "passing!" when I'm reasonably certain that I'm close enough to be heard, then follow up with a "good morning" or "merry Christmas" when going by.  At a minimum, even those who don't speak English will know that someone is heading their way, and a short, punching "passing!" seems to penetrate better than a long, drawn-out "on your left!" 
This having been said, there are some pedestrians who are so lost in their thoughts or conversations that nothing short of gunfire will wake them out of their reveries.  Despite loud warnings before passing, I've been inadvertently spat on by oxygen-deprived runners who simply don't register my presence, and once had someone clear his nostrils on me as I passed.  All profusely apologized, but the damage was done.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 8:33:06 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/27/2016 11:50 PM, Ashwath Akirekadu wrote:
> I have always wondered this. Alerting pedestrians felt like I
> was annoying them 99% of the times to avoid that 1% chance of
> collision. I love the beep beep suggestion. Whenever my toddler son
> is riding with me, I'm going to delegate beep beep responsibility to
> him. Natural fit. Win-win!

It can't be 99:1 -- far too many people say thanks when you do for it to
be anything like that. If anything, it's 1% annoyance vs 99% anything
from thanks to indifference.

[Scott Henry]

Am I the only one who avoids paths like the plague?    Though I do have a brass bell on a few of my bikes, but only for the beautiful look of tarnished brass.

Ride on the road.

Scott

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[John A. Bennett]

On a related note regarding multi-use paths:

When riding at night, please don't employ your flashing strobe light to make us aware of your presence. Those things blind the rest of us when we're trying to pass you going in the opposite direction, and we really can't tell exactly where you are.

Further, they're disconcerting when you are overtaking us.

Use the solid beam. On low. And point it down.

This is especially true if A) You live in Portland, Oregon. B) You ride south on the Eastbank Esplanade. C) Between the hours of 5:30PM and 6:30PM.

Happy 2017,

John 

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-8, Tim wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

If the path is regularly and frequently used by cyclists, then I think normal people expect bicycles to come up behind them and keep their wits about them. 

That said, I also think it's polite to warn pedestrians, and when I don't have a bell, I do so by saying "Cyclist!", which works better than "on your left". It has the advantage of being just one word that is easily understood.

There are nasty people on recreational trails from time to time, and I try to ignore them. OTOH, there are criminally clueless people, like the 2 young mothers walking blithely toward me one day, straddling both lanes, who were utterly oblivious to my approaching yells until I almost ran into them.

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 6:33 PM, 'Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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[Patrick Moore]

I find women of a certain age and class to be the most self-righteously unpleasant among path users; and this one turned without looking and then blamed you?

[Patrick Moore]

Good advice; and I'll add: recall with confidence that you have as much right to the path as anyone else.

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[George Schick]

Many people using MUP's nowadays are just about as bad distracted drivers.  Here's a link from a recumbent rider's blog that pretty much sums it up:

http://www.bentrideronline.com/?p=4132

[John]

I see all the problems everyone has listed every time I'm on a MUP, and the only solution I've found to to slow way down and assume the person/people are going to move directly in front of me no matter how many times I've rung my bell and called out to them. People walking & talking are the worst for me, as they have successfully tuned out everything but the sounds of their own voices. I always prepare to pedal off into the weeds to avoid a collision. It feels safer to avoid MUP's altogether and ride with cars on the road.

It all reminds me of growing up in a place loved by tourists who didn't care if their Winnebago was going to drive right over the kid on the 10-speed hugging the very edge of the asphalt on the road. I don't how many times I was run off the road. My solution was to ride in bad weather, or at night when the tourists were off the road & headlights forewarned of any other traffic.

John (I want more cowbell!!!) Phillips

[ted]

I doubt it. Though I wouldn't equate my avoidance of MUPs with that of life threatening diseases, I definitely prefer to avoid them most of the time.

On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 6:37:19 AM UTC-8, Skenry wrote:

Am I the only one who avoids paths like the plague?    Though I do have a brass bell on a few of my bikes, but only for the beautiful look of tarnished brass.

Ride on the road.

Scott

On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

On 12/27/2016 11:50 PM, Ashwath Akirekadu wrote:

I have always wondered this. Alerting pedestrians felt like I was annoying them 99% of the times to avoid that 1% chance of collision.  I love the beep beep suggestion.  Whenever my toddler son is riding with me, I'm going to delegate beep beep responsibility to him.  Natural fit.  Win-win!

It can't be 99:1 -- far too many people say thanks when you do for it to be anything like that.  If anything, it's 1% annoyance vs 99% anything from thanks to indifference.

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[BenG]

I slow such that I can ring the bell and wait for their response without invading their space. If they wear ear buds, I slow and ring, and creep up such that they see me peripherally and can react before I pass. In all cases I yield my speed and momentum for the chance to make a positive interaction. Seems like folks appreciate that consideration.

[Tim Butterfield]

On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 1:25 PM, BenG <bguth...@gmail.com> wrote:

In all cases I yield my speed and momentum for the chance to make a positive interaction. Seems like folks appreciate that consideration.

Yep and especially around children.  No telling how they will react.

Tim

 

[Jon Dukeman,central Colorado]

FUNNY STORY...

A friend and I were riding a trail and we came upon a sharp, blind curve.

When we got halfway around the turn there were two guys jogging in single file.

I couldn't react quick enough to ring the bell so just as we were almost side by side I yelled "on your left, sorry". I felt bad but what else could we do?

They were obviously a bit erked at us.

One guy yelled back at us a couple of times...."on your right".

That's the first time that has happened.

Jon

 

[Ron Mc]

The greenways here are a treasure.  I can ride 50 mi on them and most of it feels totally remote.  There's a little more pedestrian traffic around park trailheads and especially dog parks, but pick your times right and you can go miles and miles without seeing anybody.  

I have two 32 mi routes picked out that I can haul bike into work then go for a ride.  

On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 8:37:19 AM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:

Am I the only one who avoids paths like the plague?    Though I do have a brass bell on a few of my bikes, but only for the beautiful look of tarnished brass.

Ride on the road.

Scott

On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

On 12/27/2016 11:50 PM, Ashwath Akirekadu wrote:

I have always wondered this. Alerting pedestrians felt like I was annoying them 99% of the times to avoid that 1% chance of collision.  I love the beep beep suggestion.  Whenever my toddler son is riding with me, I'm going to delegate beep beep responsibility to him.  Natural fit.  Win-win!

It can't be 99:1 -- far too many people say thanks when you do for it to be anything like that.  If anything, it's 1% annoyance vs 99% anything from thanks to indifference.

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[GAJett]

I am mostly familiar with the MUPs of the East Bay Regional Park District in the SF Bay Area.  I almost always use my bell when approaching from the rear, and from the front if other users don't seem to be paying attention.  I ring several times as I approach (e.g., ding-ding ding, ding-ding-ding, ding-ding-ding) before passing as far away as possible.  And I always say thank-you to those who move over, often getting a thanks in return.  If anyone is nasty, they still get the thank-you

Several rules for EBRPD trails that are relevant to this thread include:

All Trail Users:

For everyone's safety, keep to the right (so no real reason to call out "on your left").

For your safety, headphones are not advised (but not prohibited -- this has consequences).

Bicycles:

Bicycles shall not be ridden at an unsafe speed, or greater than the posted speed limit. (The speed limit is usually 15 mph. However even a walking pace could be considered an "unsafe speed" and a cyclist held responsible for an accident even if proceeding with the utmost caution.  As a corollary these trails are NOT for high speed training.  If you want to go faster then at least slow down when passing others, or find another venue.)

Bells are required on bicycles on Park District trails.  (I've known several people who have gotten tickets for not having bells!)

• Bicycles always yield to pedestrians. Before passing, SLOW DOWN, ring bell and establish verbal contact.  (Yes, slow down.  MUPs are for all users.  No one should use them in any way that endangers others.  But how do you establish verbal contact with the idiot on, for example, an i(diot)Phone with the volume turned up?
  

Pedestrians:

• Keep to the right when approached by others. (Again, stay to the right unless passing.)
  
• Look behind and to both sides before changing course.  (As mentioned elsewhere, runners are particularly bad about this.  I had one at the back of a large group literally turn on their toe to reverse direction.  I had slowed to a walking pace while waiting a chance to pass the group, so was able to stop.

Cheers.

[lum gim fong]

What kinda ticket?
Not one that gets points on your driving record?

[Garth]

  Ahahahah .. .  "The Bike Police !"  

Funny story about how great my mom is . .. . back in the 70's in Minnesota the city where I lived created a "bike patrol" just to write tickets to bicyclists.  One summers day I must have gone through a stop sign on a vacant city street or something , but all I recall is being chased by these guy on a bike yelling "stop" !   Now I was maybe 10-12 years old or so, and I had been chased and robbed before on my paper route so I stopped for no one at that point and just kept riding home. We are talking about all of this within a mile of my home. The guy rings our doorbell, making some demand and saying he wanted to write me a ticket or something, but my mom just basically gave him an earful of unpleasantness,  to stop harassing kids, that he should be ashamed of himself policing for kids on the street. All he could do was go away, never to be heard of again.  The Best Mom ! 

[Steve Palincsar]

Don't try that with a grown up cop.

-

[Garth]

  He was no cop, and our "grown up" cops had better things to do than police kids on bikes. 

Always the threat huh Steve ?    The dead squirrel images you post.. . .  blah blah blah . . . .   the ol' "comply or die" mantra.   Comply to who ?

[Philip Kim]

I use a MUP to work everyday. I always ring my bell to alert them once I'm within  20-15 feet or so. And if they don't acknowledge by moving to the side, then they probably have headphones in and didn't hear me, and I'll ring again once I'm within 7 feet and slow down. Then I'll usually say "How's going?" or "Thank you" as I'm within ear shot.

I've used the same MUP as a runner on the weekend and felt some sort of way when a bike sped past me without warning.

You don't really state how fast your ride, or how slow you slow down. Most bikers on the MUP ride around 15-20 mph, which is 3-4 times faster than a runner, and 5-10 times faster than a walker. Even if you slowed down to 10 mph, it's still pretty fast compared to someone who is walking. 3-5 feet when someone is going by that fast without warning can be pretty unnerving.

Of course passing without warning is fine if there are no accidents, but it mostly benefits you as a rider and not the pedestrian. So that doesn't really acknowledge pedestrians having the right-of-way.

You're right, it can be incredibly frustrating when pedestrians don't hear you or yell at you when you're trying to bike to work or go about your business and trying to do the right thing, and I've too questioned "what's the point?". I think more bicycle to pedestrian interactions can make the MUP a safer and bicycle-friendly path. It's hard enough getting paths to allow bikes to be ridden on it as is.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/29/2016 08:20 AM, Garth wrote:
> He was no cop, and our "grown up" cops had better things to do than
> police kids on bikes.
>
> Always the threat huh Steve ? The dead squirrel images you post.. .
> . blah blah blah . . . . the ol' "comply or die" mantra. Comply
> to who ?
>

You try running from a cop who wants to write you a ticket for running a
stop sign or in some jurisdictions, failing to come to a foot-down stop
at a stop sign. I'm not threatening you, just pointing out that what
you're suggesting could be a very dangerous course of action. There are
very few "kids on bikes" reading this list.

[Garth]

I speak from a place of having given all, "complying" to all the implied powers that be, and yet all was never enough, more was never enough.  Yes, call it hell, but in the midst of nowhere left to turn but your Self . . .  funny things seem to happen, you ask true honest questions within yourself, and you receive true honest answers from within, not what someone else claims is true, but a truth not relative to anyone or anything, really your very Self.   So, who would the criminal be anyways , the "powers that be" ?  Garth, Steve, John/Jane Doe, the law, the lawyers, the cops, the perps, any of "they and them" ?   Nope . . . none are .....

    "forgive them for they know not what they do" 

and that's all

[Scott Henry]

Please if you are going to be disparaging the work of America's police forces, do it someplace other than a bike list.

Scott

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[Ron Mc]

Maybe it's the real estate - all our greenways are in the flood plains.  And so are the police stations - our greenways connect all the police stations.  There are always officers on the trails, in addition to Trail Stewards.  

It's a good thing.  

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 9:03:15 AM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:

Please if you are going to be disparaging the work of America's police forces, do it someplace other than a bike list.

Scott

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

I speak from a place of having given all, "complying" to all the implied powers that be, and yet all was never enough, more was never enough.  Yes, call it hell, but in the midst of nowhere left to turn but your Self . . .  funny things seem to happen, you ask true honest questions within yourself, and you receive true honest answers from within, not what someone else claims is true, but a truth not relative to anyone or anything, really your very Self.   So, who would the criminal be anyways , the "powers that be" ?  Garth, Steve, John/Jane Doe, the law, the lawyers, the cops, the perps, any of "they and them" ?   Nope . . . none are .....

    "forgive them for they know not what they do" 

and that's all






On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 8:44:13 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 

You try running from a cop who wants to write you a ticket for running a
stop sign or in some jurisdictions, failing to come to a foot-down stop
at a stop sign.  I'm not threatening you, just pointing out that what
you're suggesting could be a very dangerous course of action.  There are
very few "kids on bikes" reading this list.

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[Scott Henry]

OK, sorry.   I guess I didn't understand the first post.

Always do what they say, the first time, every time.

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[Ron Mc]

I narc'd on a lady who was running her bull terrier loose on the trail to an officer and he took off after her 

[Patrick Moore]

Can we somehow remove this sort of drivel from the list?

[LeahFoy]

Ah, the MUP etiquette. It's confounding, isn't it? I've tried ringing bells, but what I mean as a pleasant alert ends up seeming like honking to pedestrians. I took a leaf out of Grant's book and put jingle bells on the kids' bikes. They were clearanced at $1 apiece, and they wrap securely around the bars with a strong velcro closure. Thus, people hear us coming as we jingle down the path. But for the "zombies" - folks with ear buds or phones, I just call out in my cheeriest voice, "Good morning!" and that works splendidly. Sometimes I yell compliments - "Love your backpack!" "What a cute dog you have!" "Working hard! Looking good!" I know some folks are irritated initially because they don't expect us, but it's hard to be snarky with a rider who cheerfully calls out a morning greeting to you. "On your left" was dicey, as people often move left, and kids don't understand it. So, cheerfulness and compliments are the way to go, in my humble opinion!

Leah, who rides TBBITW (The Best Bike in the World) cheerfully through the suburbs.

[ted]

It seems not

[Richard Rios]

As to original question posed. I say yes it is absolutely ok, go for it and why not. My experience is that people you can pass in this manner are generally the more considerate and aware types. They don't seem startled or to mind. I know I dont, just slow down a bit and go on about your buisness. I find the issue to be with the groups of walkers or cyclist taking up the whole path talking loudly and in general showing no concern for others. But these folks tend to be a no win...if you just try to go around quietly they look at you all indignantly and don't seem to want to share the space or if you use a bell they seem startled and scatter in all directions causing even more of a ruckus and still look at ya all indignantly. People with kids and dogs I will generally try and give some warning because kids being kids will dart and I wouldn't want them or fido to get hurt. Point being everyone should keep a general awareness of others about them on multi use paths and be considerate / use common sense. Then there really is no problem and need to signal every time you go around. I dont honk before I pass in my car. The expectation is that as drivers we keep a general awareness of what is happening around us for everyone's safety. Think the same should be true of multi use paths as well. I also like my brass bells because they look, and sound great. I will ping mine at times just for shits and giggles because the sound makes me feel happy. What I actually find them most useful for is when going around blind corners or when or where sight is somehow limited. Then I will just ping away to let others know I am around. Just my .02

[Ron Mc]

even the most conscious people can't see behind them.  

One thing I like about the Crane Karen bell is you play it.  It can flam, it can ping, it can be a gentile ring, it can be loud.  

Pedestrians appreciate a polite warning that you're about to pass them.  

Just like the deer, from your approach ring they know your distance and speed.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/29/2016 02:00 PM, Ron Mc wrote:
> even the most conscious people can't see behind them.
> One thing I like about the Crane Karen bell is you play it. It can
> flam, it can ping, it can be a gentile ring, it can be loud.
> Pedestrians appreciate a polite warning that you're about to pass them.
> Just like the deer, from your approach ring they know your distance
> and speed.

Ron's right about all that. As for "playing" bells -- the same is true
of "traditional" or "ring-ring" bike bells.

[islaysteve]

Leah, as usual, you are a model of positivity for us all. Happy New Year to you and your family, Steve

[Richard Rios]

Maybe I'm just weird but I do glance back every so often as I walk along. Do the same on my bike. Keeps me from being surprised at least 80 percent of the time. Also most bikes are not absolutely silent usually there will be some kind of noise that alerts me to a bike comming along. Tire buzz, chain squeek, brake squeel, friends talking and enjoying the ride, dirt or leaves being ran over. The only problem I find with that is if some one is playing out racing fantasies and being a bit inconsiderate, then they will close to fast to react to and it is a bit startling. But hey if having to pay some attention to what is going on in the environment is to much to ask ...maybe I'll just go into the mirrors for pedestrians buisness! That way they can just look straight ahead, with ear buds in, monitoring Fit bit, smoking a pipe, drinking a cup o' joe, while reading Ann Patchette and still see what is going on behind them !)

Richard "spider sense" Rios

[Garth]

 
  Yea Yea Leah  !  ! 

 I like the jingle bells idea too.

  Here are some practical tips  .  . . .

Put yourself in the "other" person shoes, forget who you think you are and who you think they may be, forget about the circumstances, forget they were known or unknown to you prior to this crossing .... just 2 or more people sharing the same time and space.  How would you like to be treated?, treat them that way without any consideration of yourself.  Do it anyways   .  . . .

Look at where you ARE as the destination, where-ever that may be at the time, not just "in your way" of getting somewhere else. We're always "on the way" and when we get there, oh . . . "I'm sooo busy . . I have somewhere else to be, something else to do".  Always some-where or some-thing else, but never where you ARE... You just kinda are . . may as be friends .

[Justin August]

The obvious solution here is for everyone to get Chris King hubs and coast at speed on MUPs. No one can miss you then.

-j

[Ron Mc]

Richard, for a bike approaching at 20 mph and even slowing to pass you at 10 mph, unless you're constantly swinging your head or wearing a rear view mirror, you can still get surprised.  

Sparing pedestrians the surprise and shock of our very quiet bikes is just polite - maybe it's just my very quiet bikes.  

In case of people with dogs, you want to give them as much warning as possible as an unfortunately majority need it to get their animals under control.  

I bet I haven't offended 3 pedestrians in 5 years, and the one I offended this week was randomly crossing from left to right across my path, was elderly, and I couldn't tell whether he was hard of hearing as he gave me no acknowledgement.  

The regular pedestrians on my routes all know me by my bell, smile and wave - even those who didn't used to.  

[Ron Mc]

And you can't please everybody.  Some people are looking for offense.  I about decided the old man was pushing and taking up the whole path on purpose.  

But you are doing the right and safe thing and someone is offended, it's all on them and not about you.  

There was this one guy several times - haven't seen him in a long time - who made fun of my bell, singing out ICE CREAM.  

I replied in my best voca musici, No, Gelato.  

[Ron Mc]

something else for sure - if I'm panic braking, my bell is also ringing

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/29/2016 03:21 PM, Ron Mc wrote:
> And you can't please everybody. Some people are looking for offense.
> I about decided the old man was pushing and taking up the whole path
> on purpose.
> But you are doing the right and safe thing and someone is offended,
> it's all on them and not about you.
>
> There was this one guy several times - haven't seen him in a long time
> - who made fun of my bell, singing out ICE CREAM.
> I replied in my best voca musici, No, Gelato.

Sounds like he was having a bit of fun - hardly the stuff of offense,
I'd think.

[Ron Mc]

I was having fun too

[Eric Floden]

It sounded like terrific fun

Eric

Middle Ontario

On 29 December 2016 at 16:06, Ron Mc <bulld...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was having fun too

[Garth]

You know Patrick of the Moore's . . .  . life really is just like a box of wondrous chocolates ...  . when you open the box it's gonna be everything it was ever going to be :)

[sameness]

But how can I put myself in the other person's shoes when there is no "other", only All and Now? Or... something. I mean, or... everything!

I'm off to treat myself. I hope you all enjoy it.

(On topic: "On your left!" = the other other invariably moves left into my path 92% of the time. I ring early and I ring often.)

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

[KenP]

A while back there was a discussion on using bear bells; jingle bells. Try a cowbell?  It constantly announces presence.  That seems to help with some of trail denizens..

[Ron Mc]

I had a really fast greenway ride today because the trails were all but deserted due to our s. Texas winter weather.  50 degrees, overcast and low humidity - it was great.  

I began in the middle, went to one end, crossed back and went back to the other end.  

Near that 3/4 turnaround, I could see a mother ahead through the trees herding 2 small kids, so I rang my first announcement bell, and another as I approached closer, and of course I slowed way down to ride by them.  

The mother apologized.  I told her no, you guys have a blast.  

On my way back, the mother did something really cool - she did nothing. She didn't lunge for her daughter on the tricycle or yell at her.  She left alone to broaden her own horizons.  

As I was about to pass the little girl I gave a soft ring and she looked over her shoulder to see where I was.  

Clearly, the mother felt safe with my awareness of her daughter.  

[lum gim fong]

I hate when approaching loquatious cyclists and they maintain their abreast tracking even when they see me coming towards them. As we pass it feels like there's only inches between our handlebars.

[lum gim fong]

Meaning the cyclists are approaching me and I'm approaching from opposite directions. .not overtaking

[Jon Dukeman]

It's annoying....They are usually in lycra with skinny tires.

I always say" WTF is wrong with the other side of the trail??"

Jon

"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE JUNK "....

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 8:40 AM, lum gim fong <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

Meaning the cyclists are approaching me and I'm approaching from opposite directions. .not overtaking

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[George Schick]

Agreed (and also with Lum Gim's comment).  And BTW, those "in lycra with skinny tires" are usually known by the slang term "freds."  What's equally annoying is when riders (usually freds, it seems) are approaching a rider(s) from behind while there are runners or bikers coming from the opposite direction and they can't slow up and wait for the oncoming traffic to clear, but just have to dodge around them with split seconds to spare before colliding, often without even any announcement that they're doing so (and, of course, bells are out of the question for freds).

On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 9:50:17 AM UTC-6, Jon Dukeman,central Colorado wrote:

It's annoying....They are usually in lycra with skinny tires.

I always say" WTF is wrong with the other side of the trail??"

Jon

"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE JUNK "....

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 8:40 AM, lum gim fong <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

Meaning the cyclists are approaching me and I'm approaching from opposite directions. .not overtaking

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[Rod Holland]

Yeah, Chris King hub angry bees are a safety feature. Badly adjusted, squealing cantis do the job, too, and penetrate earbids reliably...

rod

[lum gim fong]

A noisy drivetrain and flicking one's brake levers works too on the unearbudded.

i'm surprised that joggers jog along with earbuds in both ears. I think I remember my wife telling me that the local library had the police there to talk give a seminar on safety or something like that and they said not to have earbuds in when you're on the trails.

[Patrick Moore]

I hold my line and let them move. Works every time.

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 8:38 AM, lum gim fong <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

I hate when approaching loquatious cyclists and they maintain their abreast tracking even when they see me coming towards them. As we pass it feels like there's only inches between our handlebars.

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[Patrick Moore]

Many Rivendell owners ride road bikes with sub 35 mm tires while wearing lycra; let's not be foolishly elitist. 

[Eric Norris]

Very true. In my experience on the local MUP, rudeness/cluelessness is an equal opportunity ailment, affecting bikers and walkers of all stripes. Where I ride, most “racers” are pacelining single file, but both racers and un-racers alike can be seen riding 2 or more abreast, oblivious to the other people using the trail.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com
www.campyonly.com
campyonlyguy.blogspot.com

On Jan 2, 2017, at 9:19 AM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Many Rivendell owners ride road bikes with sub 35 mm tires while wearing lycra; let's not be foolishly elitist. 

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/02/2017 11:14 AM, George Schick wrote:

Agreed (and also with Lum Gim's comment).  And BTW, those "in lycra with skinny tires" are usually known by the slang term "freds." 

Are you sure?  When did that happen?  When they first started using the term, it applied to us, not to them.  Googling the term, I retrieved this:

Fred is a derisive term used by “serious” road cyclists to describe other cyclists who do not conform to serious road cyclists' norms with regard to dress and equipment, and appear amateurish to them. The term is generally reserved for men, while the female Fred is sometimes called a “Doris.”Apr 2, 2011

Sure sounds like a "roadie's" view of us...

[George Schick]

The term "fred" seems to have morphed into a myriad of meanings nowadays (according to a look-up in the Urban Dictionary, anyway), but the way it gets used "locally" implies someone who portrays him/herself as a racer, decked out in the some of the priciest gear from head to toe, rides an expensive professional-class bike, and goes out on the MUP's instead of the street where he probably belongs, to seemingly prove to everyone else out there how great he is.  There are lots of riders in this area who depart from an LBS just down the street from me most every evening during the regular riding season in a large pack; but they ride and carry out their training entirely on the streets and roads.

As far as attire is concerned, I wear lycra and have sub-35 tires, too (though not by much), and it's all fine.  But the freds seem to like to take things to the extreme even where it's impractical.  Most of the MUP's in this area are surfaced with compacted "limestone screenings," the fine and often powdery stuff that's left at the bottom after all the other sizes of crushed limestone rock have been sorted.  How anyone can ride on the stuff with something like 25's is beyond me, but you see 'em out there.

[Ron Mc]

Our greenways and users are all pretty nice, but always expect the unexpected.  

The stupidest thing of all, today there was a road bike group with 25+ riders on the greenway, and heading toward the busiest part of our greenway system.  

Luckily I had already done that part earlier in the morning and was heading the opposite direction.  

[Scott Henry]

I have never heard the term Fred to denote a racer type persona.   It has been used since the mid80s in person and in magazines to describe what now is a BoB.  

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[Ron Mc]

exactly

[lum gim fong]

What's a Bob?

[Garth]

  Everyone is a Fred to somebody !  Ahahaha ....so much for definitions as being anything definite, since everything is up for interpretation, everyone walking around trying to figure out the meaning of things  . . .  Eventually it just makes no sense, since every definition depends on another definition, a comparing of relativities, but in relation to what source , what Absolute ? Whats being compared ?   . . .. and in the silence you hear a laughter like never before

  Yeah. . . .  Like the Dean Martin song goes . .. . Everybody Loves Somebody Sometime ....   even a "fred".   "Ain't That a Kick in the Head"  indeed  . . .   "That's A-moore-eh" !!!

[Patrick Moore]

Garth: f there are no definitions, and one thing means the same thing as anything else, why does that leave you room to pontificate on meaning? So, why do you bother to speak at all? And why should anyone bother to read what you say?

Do you really believe yourself what you say below? I expect you really don't, and that you are really just trolling.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

.....so much for definitions as being anything definite, since everything is up for interpretation, everyone walking around trying to figure out the meaning of things  . . .  Eventually it just makes no sense, since every definition depends on another definition, a comparing of relativities, but in relation to what source , what Absolute ? Whats being compared ?   . . .. and in the silence you hear a laughter like never before

[Steve Palincsar]

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/internet-bob


On 01/03/2017 09:49 AM, lum gim fong wrote:
> What's a Bob?
>

You, basically, only you haven't found the group yet.

[Steve Palincsar]

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[Ron Mc]

Except to George Carlin.  If you're slower than him you're an idiot, and if you're faster than him you're a maniac.  

[lum gim fong]

Last year in my town a cyclist hit a child, breaking the child's femur on a MUP.
He was described as a 30-40 year old white or latino person in racing kit with a red and white bike with red rims.
As far as I know they still haven't caught him.

[Garth]

Patrick, that's my sense of humor , some get it, some don't . .  it's all good .

 I ams what I ams and that's all that I ams .  . .   Pop-eye the sailor man , toot toot !  Or in this case . . . ding a ling a ling long along the trail of life .

[Garth]

Yes - exactly !  !   
ahahahaahahahahahahahah

[Rod Holland]

The term "fred" used to be associated with touring cyclists (c.f. the old phreds mailing list), and was sometimes expanded to Fenders and Racks Every Day. Some time in the last decade there was a sense inversion, and the name started getting hung on kitted carbon riders (with the implication that their gear is faster than their skill); I associate that shift with the Bike Snob, but only because that's where I first encontered it.

Seems to me the old usage was actually embraced as a positive identity by many of those it described, while the newer usage is merely derogatory.

rod

[Garth]

everybody can relate ......

 

[George Schick]

Rod - yes, that's my understanding of how the term changed, too.  That's happened to lots of other words and terms over the years, as well.  Take "hacker" for example.  That used to mean an electronics hobbyist who fooled around with bread-boarded components back in the day when personal computing was in its infancy.  Then it got morphed into the evil meaning it has nowadays, largely by the media, I believe.  But, again, the meaning of "freds" appears to be location dependent to some extent.

[Bob K.]

I first heard the term "Fred" as applied to roadies from BikeSnobNYC. He may've been partly responsible for the change in meaning.

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Steve Palincsar]

It's amazing: he uses it wrong and everyone follows along...

[Bob K.]

So it goes, or so it seems.

http://ideas.ted.com/20-words-that-once-meant-something-very-different/

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Steve Palincsar]

Well, there's a difference between the evolution of word meanings as show in that article and what we have here.  This was not gradual evolution, it was a charismatic writer who simply used it wrong, exactly opposite to the accepted meaning, and all his acolytes simply went along.  A bit like a plumber deciding this

belonged on the right side...

I find BSNYC contemptible.

[Robert Keal]

Steve commented:

Well, there's a difference between the evolution of word meanings as show in that article and what we have here.  This was not gradual evolution, it was a charismatic writer who simply used it wrong, exactly opposite to the accepted meaning, and all his acolytes simply went along.

But the same thing happened with the words on the TED list, right? Someone, at some moment in the past, used a word incorrectly. Their incorrect use of the word influenced someone else (an "acolyte") to do the same, and so on and so forth, nice no longer means silly. It means pleasant or agreeable. In other words, what we now see as an evolution of the meaning of the word nice was really just a choice made by one person that ended up catching on, just like BSNYC's use of the word Fred, and I don't think it makes a difference if it takes ten years or 100 for the new meaning to catch on.

On a related note, I think BSNYC is hilarious.

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Tim]

I only started cycling for recreation and fitness n 2001, at the age of 40 so maybe it is understandable that I only know the term Fred through BSNYC, whom I find to be quite funny. He is, to be sure, merciless on amateur riders who buy wheelsets that cost more than a new Roadeo frame. To be fair, though, he is merciless on himself as well. And he's buddies with Grant, which is a plus in my book. Before discovering Riv I was well on my way to becoming a carbon fiber riding weight weenie, although I still wear (on rides longer than 2-3 hours) lycra. It does work well for that.

[Garth]

 Yeah .... it's just some guy's blog ,his opinions and such, who by his own profile page :

While I love cycling and embrace it in all its forms, I'm also extremely critical. So I present to you my venting for your amusement and betterment. No offense meant to the critiqued. Always keep riding!

   I too see the humor of it all , it's just one person's opinions. He his who he is .... whoever he is !!! 

Words are fluid, and all you gotta do is look around and word meanings are far from "standardized" and universal, even yes and no.