Hilsen vs. rambouillet

[Donald Funke]

I have a 63cm Homer that I enjoy riding for many different surfaces. I have been getting into doing Brevets and considering swapping for a 60cm Rambouillet. The 60cm would fit a bit better and it looks like the geometry is a bit more roady. I like the ability to ride 38s with fenders, but it does at times feel a bit "bulky". Any thoughts? They are both in excellent condition BTW. 

[Cyclofiend Jim]

You might try playing with the tires first.  That's going to have a lot to do with how either bike rides.  I've run brevets and centuries on my Hilsen with Jack Brown-Greens (33 1/3) and have been very happy.  

If the 60 cm Rambouillet fits you better (yours or someone else's?) you might take a close look at saddle with respect to bb position, bar to saddle height/distance, etc.  There's really no reason that the cockpit cold not be made identical. 

Brevets are all about staying comfortable - so if you feel like the 63 cm bike is too big, it's not likely to feel better at the end of 7 or 8 (or more) hours on course. 

On the other hand a more "roadie" ride might be less comfortable on the homeward leg.  

Of course, either bike would be a great choice.  I'd lean toward the Hilsen simply for better fender clearance/tire size possibilities.  33 1/3 with fenders would be my choice rather than 28 with fenders. 

- Jim / cyclofiend.com

[Jim Bronson]

You could set your Hilsen up to be more "roady" with a stem change,
could you not?

I vote for keeping the ability to run 38s with fenders. That's what I
run on brevets.

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[John Hawrylak]

Don

I would concentrate on calculating the required the AHH stem to get the same saddle to bar distance as on the Ram, with the bars at the same drop with respect to the same saddle height on both, e.g, if the AHH saddle height is 75cm an bars are even with saddle, then set the Ram up to be same, measure the Saddle to Bar distance and compute the required AHH stem to get the Ram Saddle to Bar distance.

If the calculated new AHH stem is reasonable, not too short, then the AHH should fit like the Ram

It seems strange there is such a large, 3cn, difference in the 2 frame sizes.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 8:04:57 PM UTC-5, Donald Funke wrote:

[Michael Hechmer]

Donald, I have a Ram and a Saluki, which was the first version of the AHH.  I can't say much about riding brevets, although my experience of century rides certainly lines up with Jim's.   I run 38 mm pari moto tires on the Saluki and 29 mm grand bois cerf's on the Ram.  The Saluki is definitely the more comfortable and I prefer it if I am riding a lot of dirt or bad chip & seal routes.  The Ram is comfortable but not as much as the Saluki.  The Ram is however lighter, quicker and more responsive than the Saluki and I would bet that also holds true for the Ram vs AHH comparison.  The Ram feels like it climbs a bit easier and they are both rock solid on high speed descents.  To put it in Jan Hein's terms, the Ram planes better than the Saluki.

In the end it seems to come down to a slight trade off between comfort and performance.

Michael

On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 8:04:57 PM UTC-5, Donald Funke wrote:

[Lungimsam]

If these bikes are drop bar setups with exact same saddle and bars and hoods, measure these measurements of the bike you want to duplicate in cm:
Saddle setup:
1.Seat height
2.Seat tilt
3.Seat nose fore/aft to center of stem bolt measurement
Last,
4.Saddle height from floor to saddle top
Bar/stem setup:
5.Drop bar tops from floor to bar tops measured at close to the stem clamp.
6.Seat nose fore/aft to deepest part of brake hoods (along the inside curve where your hand rests on the hood.). Note tilt of bars on reference bike before measuring and recreate. If profile shows bar ramps in line with stem extension, etc.
#6 is the last thing you do once you get the bar height and tilt done. Get the left lever in place where you want it, remove bars and level them by getting the right lever adjusted with a table as reference like in the RBW handlebar setup video. Then reinstall at the correct bar to saddle height.

Combining the results of 4 and 5 gets you your bar height to saddle measurement to see how many cm below or above saddle your bars are. Measurements of saddle and bar height from floor must be taken with bike in same upright position for accuracy.

Adjusting hoods, individually moving them up or down along ramps to duplicate 6 can be tough.

Recreating these saddle and stem/bar measurements can be frustrating and a balancing act. Set up the saddle measurements first. The do bar tilt, height, and hoods last. Make sure the stem bolt is tight or your #3 measurement will be off.

[Lungimsam]

Forgot to mention seat tilt is measured with a board on top of saddle and a digital level. Make sure tires are inflated the way you want them for riding before measuring.

[Donald Funke]

I have the 38mm compass tires on the Hilsen. It's pretty comfortable. I have a 7cm stem on it and it feels a bit of a reach, even with the seat all the way forward, to get on the brake hoods where I spend most of my time. I agree with the whole planing idea. It does not feel like planing. With all my gear it's 33.5 #. 

[Dave Johnston]

You might consider moving the brake hood up further on the handlebar. Hate to see you mess up that nice tape job though. I run them so the bottom tip of the brake lever is about a 1/4" above a straight line from the drop portion of the bar.
I found this example of what I mean on google:
http://i.stack.imgur.com/5zifk.jpg

This is an issue of personal taste though

[ted]

From looking at that photo, I think you might find a 60cm frame a bit small if you want drop bars that high.

Though the Rambouillet is a bit lighter / sportier than the AHH I suspect that just changing frames won't make your 33+ pound rig seem much less bulky. I doubt the frame weights differ by more than a pound or two.

If you are referring to Jan Heine styled "planning", that is usually associated with standard diameter extra light gauge tubing frames. I don't think any Rivs fit that bill.

[Lungimsam]

Rotate the brake hoods up higher on the ramps and you could get them a couple cm's closer I would bet.

Like this:

 https://www.flickr.com/photos/70237737@N00/17361887561/in/album-72157651929761689/

[John Hawrylak]

Hi Don

Besides moving the brake levers higher as others hve suggested, here are 2 more to consider

1.  try a zero offset seatpost.  it will move you closer t the bar.  You need to check your knee vs pedal

2.  try 1 6cm stem to move the bars closer

If these do not work, your TT is  likely too long.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Will]

So put a 5cm stem on and move the seat forward a bit. Also... I couldn't tell from the picture... does that front fender has QR?

[Justin August]

You could/should also try a bar with shorter reach. Something like the Nitto x Fair-weather MOD 174 bar: http://store.fairweather.cc/store/p26/MOD174_ALL_ROAD_BAR_by_NITTO.html

Shorter reach, similar shape to the Noodle beside the stem, usable drops.

-J

[Reid]

On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 12:52:35 PM UTC-8, ted wrote:

If you are referring to Jan Heine styled "planning", that is usually associated with standard diameter extra light gauge tubing frames. I don't think any Rivs fit that bill.

 Maybe not in the current line-up? My Romulus definitely "planes". None of my other bikes do at all, so it's quite apparent on the Rom.

Reid

 

[Patrick Moore]

Aieee! Don't use your saddle to adjust reach! The saddle ought to go where it ought to go for comfort and efficiency, and everything else situated with respect to the saddle. I daresay it won't plane if your saddle is in the wrong place!

I know whereof I speak! Attend to me, children, and learn wisdom. Long, long ago, I bought my first good road bike, a 1989 tout 531C Falcon (tout Sante', too!). Although I had ridden enthusiastically long before this, I had only recently begun to read up on the "scientific" bits about bike fit and cadence and so on -- I think it was about this time I started to read Bicycling. You get the idea.

Anyway, I read about KOPS. I have short femurs. I like a high saddle. I added (1), (2), and (3) together and ended up with a replacement mountain bike seatpost for more height, the saddle (original Flite) all the way forward on the rails, and a 140 mm stem.

3 problems. 1) The saddle would slip in the cradle (Logic sp, basically the Nitto that Riv still sells). But it would slip forward and I had to resort to blue Loctite to keep the cradle still.

2) No torque: I was a young and fit 35, and could move fast even with a very inefficient position, and I was a 120 rpm spinner at the time, but I could feel the inefficiency as my foot went over the top of the stroke -- no torque!

3) Lastly, handling was horrible, especially on windy, fast downhill sweepers. The frame was designed for a rear weight bias -- very short front-center, long stays -- and I would skip the rear tire when I stood on hills; and I was scared to go much over 30 mph on downhill curves. And I daresay that, properly set up, this frame would have suited my physique and style well.

At any rate, some time after this, Grant told me: Get thee they saddle back, and raise thy bar and bring thy bar back. And this was done. And LO! Torque and comfort were realized, with much rejoicing amongst the people.

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[Donald Funke]

Great ideas from all! I will be doing a pro fitting later this spring. Maybe I'm just being fussy. I look at what other have done brevets on and I guess I can give it a go with just about any bike. I'll try the brake hood adjustment. The tape is getting dirty anyway. Going with a shorter stem hampers the handling a bit. For the fenders: I got tired of futzing with my honjos, trying to make them fit over the 38mm tires. I don't like the look of the SKS fender mounts so I used honjo fender mounts on sks longboards.  I drilled out the sks mounting brackets leaving the rivets. Now  no rattle and they protect as well as the honjos. I admit they still don't look as cool as the honjos.

On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 6:04:57 PM UTC-7, Donald Funke wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

For what it's worth, the rider that rode away from the group, off the front, in the most demonstrative, alpha-dog manner, that I've ever seen in ~20-something brevets over the last 5 years, was riding an A. Homer Hilsen. 

[David Johnston]

A pro-fitter might try to fit you like a "pro", with handlebars 4"
below the saddle and a foot of seatpost showing. I'm not sure that's
going to be useful in your case. I would be very wary of a typical
pro-fit session at a local bike shop. I'm sure there must be some good
ones out there, but I haven't seen it.

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[Brian Campbell]

FWIW, I ride a 61cm AHH and  completed a 200k this past October. I run 38mm Compass EL Barlow Pass tires w/ 50mm VO aluminum fenders ( I think they are a diamond or snakeskin pattern). My bike weighed about 33lbs with all of the stuff I had attached to it. I could feel it sucking the fun out of the longer distances I was riding, particularly while climbing.

I put the bike on a diet for the 200k and got down to just north of 26lbs. This includes saddle/pedals/empty water bottles/cages/Dyno hub with lights and fenders. Basically everything but my saddle bag. With the saddle bag added, it come is at 29lbs. I know 4 or 5 pounds is not the end of the world when considering the total weight of bike and rider but I noticed the difference in climbing and bike handling.

I had an large Acorn handle bar bag and Nitto Mark's rack with Shimano 10 speed bar end shifters. I removed the rack and handlebar bag and the bike handled much better for me. I also replaced the bar end shifters with a set of 10 speed Dura Ace downtube shifters. The VO Aluminum fenders replaced the SKS Longboard and the Supernova E3/Busch & Mueller lights were replaced with Schmidt Edelux II and Velo Lumino taillight. All in all, I am pleased with the changes. I don't feel that the bike needs to be lighter but I am also more mindful about what I add and carry, as it affects my enjoyment.

I would try and remove the excess weight  and see if that help the ride quality. If the AHH is too big, than I would sell it. No reason to be uncomfortable on a bike that is set up for long rides. Running  short stems has never worked well for me when it comes to the bikes handling. Good luck!

[Donald Funke]

I know what you mean about "Pro fitters". I am mostly concerned about the relationship between the saddle height, saddle for and aft, and for me, possible cleat wedging. Right now I am focused on a painful lumbar disc that is preventing me from riding at all. Who knows maybe I will be on a recumbent in the spring. 

On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 6:04:57 PM UTC-7, Donald Funke wrote:

[Will]

I'm not sure how shorter stems hamper handling. I've used long stems on smaller frames and shorter stems on larger frames, both worked fine.

Steering a bike, as we all know, works mostly by rotating the front wheel a couple of inches and leaning a bit. It's hard to see how a 7cm vs 5cm stem changes that level of rotation or weight balance. Riv frames have long top tubes. GP suggests using dirt drop stems for long tube mitigation.

[Shoji Takahashi]

Hi Will,

Among other things, stem length changes weight distribution. This can change the handling of a bike.

Dirt drop stems (at least the ones sold by Riv) are not very short: 8cm or 10cm. They do go up high.

I'd recommend trying to raise the bars a few cms and see how that goes.

shoji

[Donald Funke]

Also 7cm is the shortest stem I could find.

On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 6:04:57 PM UTC-7, Donald Funke wrote:

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I have an AHH (650b) and Ram.  The Ram was converted to a 650b with 42 mm Hetre tires.  I highly recommend the conversion and would buy a Ram for that purpose.  I have done 600k brevets on both the Ram and AHH.  I think having a 700c Ram vs 700c AHH would be almost a wash and not worth the trouble.  If you want to notice a real difference then go for a Roadeo, which is definitely quicker than the Ram and AHH.

Toshi

[John Hawrylak]

Nitto Techonomic are available down to 50mm stem length, see

http://www.benscycle.com/p-2515-nitto-technomic-quill-stem.aspx

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Will]

Which is why I originally suggested moving the seat forward slightly and going to a shorter stem to mitigate that long top tube.

We're talking moving the rider mass forward about 1/2" via seat adjustment, and reducing arm extention by an additional inch via going from 7cm stem to 5cm stem. These are typical adjustments everyone makes to fine-tune a cockpit. And they balance. His body position will be less stretched, so his shoulders/head will be very slightly higher, but his weight shift between the axles is negligable.

If we were moving 3-4 inches, I'd agree with you. But these are really minor tweaks... and worth exploring, since the alternative is a bike with less tire and fender clearance.

[Patrick Moore]

In the 45 years since I built my first bike from scratch at age 15, I learned very thoroughly that moving a bar or saddle back or forth 1/2" -- a full cm -- can make a huge difference in the fit and feel of a bike! I find that with such a change I have to adjust other things to compensate; as, when moving the saddle forward, my legs want the saddle raised a bit, and so forth.

I recently relented, due to no doubt to age-related strain on the aft thigh muscle in my left leg, and moved my Flites about 3 mm forward from absolute, rubber mallet-impacted, rearmost position (I should have listened to Grant and had my frames built with 72* angles, not 73*) and I immediately felt a difference (and a good one). I did not change the bar position, which feels just as good now as before; so not every such change demands compensation. But a full cm is very certainly often noticeable!

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[Will]

Ok, Ok, Ok.... where do you put the water bottle? Down tube, seat tube, over or under the seat tube? Seems to me these adjustments are easily as important as moving a rider by 1cm. :-)

I still don't see how moving the saddle within the narrow range Brooks gives us, or changing to a slightly shorter stem IS WORSE than the lack of comfort the OP has now.

I see no situation where I would trade a Hilsen (if I could tweak the cockpit) for a Ram with less tire options. In my hierarchy, wheels dominate. I'd rather have those additional pesky mms on the tires.  I'd sacrifice a few mms' in the cockpit, to have better tires any day.  

My Atlantis with Mustache bars had me a bit stretched. I swapped for Albastaches. Shortened the cockpit by 1"... do I like it? Yes. Is the handling better? Yes... I am more comfortable on the bars. Bar comfort counts. I think the OP is looking for bar comfort. Telling him he cannot adjust the cockpit within normal variance b/c every millimeter matters is a bit hard, don't you think?

[Patrick Moore]

110%+ agreement here! From the discussion, I get the impression that the OP's frame is simply too big.

Slight Segway: My experience with 5 different Rivendells (I still own 2, both customs) is that one great signature virtue of the breed is the comfort -- ie, the comfort that comes from a frame allowing just the right postion. As I was riding the gofast yesterday, well warmed up from climbing, I was struck again for the 10 billionth time in coming up to 17 years for this frame how "just right" it feels: butt back, back bent but not too much, arms relaxed, hands lightly gripping hoods, powerful stroke over the pedal top dead center ... And this is matched by the unerring handling.

FWIW, Segway (tm) #2: the new Compass Elk Pass Tires are the perfect tire for the perfect frame.