Atlantis now redundant?

[Reid]

Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the Atlantis?

Reid

[Mattt]

My opinion is the Atlantis, AHH, Rodeo, and Hunqapillar are made in small batches by I believe Waterford. This is why it may take 4 months to get one. Rivendell has specific buyers already on order with a deposit. They don't have to worry about over ordering. They can still offer these bikes without too much worry on supply chain because they are a guaranteed sell when ordering.

The other bikes made in Taiwan are ordered in larger batches and why they do the pre order. Rivendell is ordering the Taiwan bikes with out having all specific buyers. They are taking a chance of selling them all.

Hope this makes sense.

[James Warren]

One thing the Atlantis has that the similar Taiwan bikes (Hillborne and Appaloosa) don't is the availability of more sizes for a more precise fit to one's body.

The Hillborne introduced the expanded geometry model which helps keep the cost down by fitting about as many body sizes with fewer available sizes. This means the buyer would be willing to accept more coarse approximating when it comes picking the correct frame size and then doing fine tuning of fit via the seatpost and stem.

With the Atlantis, more available frame sizes means greater resolution when estimating the frame that's appropriate to the rider.

I have a couple of friends who say they could go with either 56 or 58 cm Atlantises. But if they were Hillborne riders, I bet only one of the available sizes would be an option for them.

- Jim W.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 1, 2017, at 8:07 PM, Reid <reid...@earthlink.net> wrote:

Just read the latest Blug that goes on about the Appaloosa. Seems to make the case that the Appaloosa is better for touring in many cases than the Atlantis, and better for a wider variety of terrain. So why retain the Atlantis?

Reid

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[CMR]

Drop bars! Atlantis has its place absolutely.

[drew]

I didnt think it says much about it being better than the Atlantis over a variety of terrain. The geometry is different. Personally, I don't feel the draw of crazy long chainstays, and prefer a top tube length where I can use drops if I choose to. The Atlantis is also just a perfect bike though maybe less idiosyncratic than the More recent models.
I do get that the overlap of hunq/Clem/Atlantis/Appaloosa has some redundancy, and I wonder about the newer versions getting geometry upgrades that put them all even closer together.

[Garth]

The Atlantis is pretty much the signature Riv frame these days. It has been around since the very late 90's and as mentioned, since they are built to order they never have unsold frames to concern over. Back then I could have bought one in the very original geometry that had longer tt's, but I ordered a local custom frame instead so it was an apples oranges kinda thing.

Thia questioned has been asked every so often with the intro of the next latest greatest expando geo frame, but again for all reasons already mentioned the Atlantis will be. Any preconfigured frame geo is great if a specific frame fits you, not if it doesn't. Customs are always great ! Of all Riv models only a 60cm. Bomba works for me and I am so glad I have one. It still has the longest reach of all stock Riv frames. I look at it as others see an Atlantis.

[Mark in Beacon]

I enjoyed that long description of the Joe on the Blug. A couple of favorite passages:

If you go about riding thinking there’s nothing you shouldn’t be able to conquer, you’ll eventually wreck something; so don’t think it’s you vs terrain. ... The woods aren’t your gym and hiking isn’t failure, it’s just a way to rest your pedaling muscles, activate other ones, and slow down enough to look up and down and around.

Don’t save the Appaloosa for special rides just because it’s beautiful. If your heirs inherit a pristine bike they’ll figure you were a collector, and they’ll be afraid to ride perfect-condition pedal-bike, so they’ll sell it to a stranger.

As someone who has done many estate sales and cleanouts, and otherwise gone through dead people's stuff, that last one resonates with me. Just yesterday, an auctioneer was dropping off loads of smalls, and I said man, I hope I get rid of all my crap so nobody has to go through it all. They'll just find me laying among a big pile of bicycles and bicycle parts. All well-used, of course.

As for redundancies and overlap, all Rivendells are going to have attributes that make them functional, versatile, and comfortable. The Rodeo, never mind the Joe or the Atlantis, is no doubt six times better and more capable than 92% of the bikes that traveled the countryside coast to coast in the 70s. I would say, given their take on bicycles, they've done a good job of keeping things fresh and exciting, even if the differences between models are sometimes a bit subtle. But a significantly lower price point is not subtle!

[Stephen Kemp]

Check out this current thread which includes a discussion of Appaloosa vs Atlantis:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/SGTUAHh_npg

The take home messages for me are (1) your choice of handlebar is an important consideration in choosing between the two and (2) if you want an Atlantis then accept no substitute! The latter is a message I think many will echo.

[Philip Kim]

Atlantis is more size specific and can use drop bars. I just got an appaloosa, because after using the bosco and albatross bars, I don't think I would use drop bars on this type of bike

On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:

[masmojo]

I've ridden both & they are both great bikes and depending on size & use an Appaloosa may be perfect for you. I very nearly bought one, but was vasillating back and forth between that & a Hunqapillar. I was getting tripped up on the sizing when the Atlantis I bought came available & I realized it was exactly what I needed. I am so glad, because I was not even considering Atlanti! Now I wonder what I was thinking! Yes, the fact that The Atlantis comes in a wide variety of sizes means it will probably never go away.

[Jim Bronson]

This is a Rivendell geek-out group having esoteric discussions about model overlap.

The Atlantis marquee is a known quantity in touring bike circles, IMO.

For that reason it's important to keep it.

$0.02

On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 11:48 AM, masmojo <mas...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I've ridden both & they are both great bikes and depending on size & use an Appaloosa may be perfect for you. I very nearly bought one, but was vasillating back and forth between that & a Hunqapillar. I was getting tripped up on the sizing when the Atlantis I bought came available & I realized it was exactly what I needed. I am so glad, because I was not even considering Atlanti! Now I wonder what I was thinking! Yes, the fact that The Atlantis comes in a wide variety of sizes means it will probably never go away.

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[Christopher Murray]

Of course they are redundant but they aren't the same. Look at the number of road racing bikes the big bike companies sell. Are they redundant? Yes but each is different enough to justify a separate model. The differences between them may appeal to one buyer or another.

What's wrong with a little redundancy?

Cheers!
Chris

[Gossamer]

I can confirm that drop bars on a JA is a bad idea. It's why I'm selling mine. Riv tried to explain this to me prior to purchase but I thought I'd give it a try. Didn't work. They are different bikes and are meant to be set up differently. Expensive lesson. ;)

[Will]

Indeed.

I was juggling between a Hilson and a Hillborne. Then an Atlantis popped up. I'd been wanting big rubber for years. One test ride. Game over.

[dougP]

Interesting.  Conversely, I rode my Atlantis with drops for over a decade.  When I began having hand issues, I changed over to upright bars, using the same stem.  The bike still fits like a glove, and my hand issues are long gone. 

dougP

[Glen]

This versatility is one big joy of the Atlantis, I have Noodle and Albatross setups for mine and switch from time to time and it just works, The Noodle with interrupter brake levers may be the best of both worlds. 

[Joe Bernard]

I've used both (with different stems) on my Appaloosa, too. The Noodle was a bit of a stretch to the drops, but I rarely ride there; the hoods and flats positions were great.

[James Warren]

On my 15+ year old Atlantis I've had the following:

Drops

Mustache

Bullmoose

Straight mountain

Bosco

Albastache

Albatross

Bosco Bullmoose

None were ditched due to lack of comfort. Most of the changing above was for fun and curiosity. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Bill Lindsay]

That is an EPIC habitual-bar-swapper!  APPROVE!

[RichS]

You've just about covered the field! What is the current bar? 

Thanks,

Richard

[masmojo]

I originally built mine up with Albatross bars & it was great. I never considered drop bars, but I am sure it's great with drops. I like drop bars, but like a lot of people I rarely (if ever) ride in the drops! So to me it's sort of a waste, because I can still brake adequately most of the time while on the hoods, in a panic situation it's less than ideal. For this reason & because I ran my XO-1 with moustache bars for 23 years I switched to Albastache bars. I don't imagine I'll be switching bars anymore, the Albastache on the Atlantis is a sweet combo.
I really love the squirtyness of the 26" wheels & the Albastache bars just accentuate how guickly you can jump up on the pedals to hit a gap in traffic or catch a traffic light before it turns, etc. Both things I loved about my XO, but now with the Atlantis in a more refined, evolved package.

[Grant @ Rivendell]

The Atlantis won't go away forever and never for long and maybe not at all, and redundancy has been our calling card and anchor all along...because Rivendell bikes are all good for more than one thing. How is a good commute bike different than a good touring bike? You might have historical highbrow imagery of "classical touring bikes," but the bikes have the same requirements--strong wheels, a place to put a tent or milk, good handling with a load, and a comfortable position. You're more likely to pedal four hours (works both ways) on a tour than shopping, but isn't it then funny that most shopping bikes are more comfortable than most "classic" touring bikes, which tend to look better than they feel?

There couldn't be more two overlapped bikes than the Atlantis and Appaloosa--as, like, platforms and performance and feel and all. Our direction has shifted only slightly, world-record slightly, in our history. The bars have come up a hair and the chainstays are inching longer and there's less reverence for the past and certain associations with properness and style than there used to be. I (personally, as opposed to all of RBW) have grown more haywire and feel less apart of the main bike industry than ever before, because (I think) I am I'm slightly suffering from being on a private high horse when it comes to questioning the motives of why this or that is happening, and not liking the answers.     The bike MARKET is super crowded, and it leads to dozens of categoris and abberants and variety...and on one hand it's cool that bikes really can travel motorlessly over more terrain--that's one of the good things, although I'm not talking about eFat bikes penetrating the wilderness when i say "good"--but it also leads to overspecialization with too many categories, and then new riders go shopping and ask for bikes by category and not by this is how I'm gonna use it.

Am I off track here? What am I even addressing? Oh--Atlantis and Appaloosa. If the Appaloosa had Atlantis decals it wouldn't seem like a different bike. Longer stays is the big difference. There's not a quality difference, and they both ride well. The comparisons are inevitable and so I tried to address them, but the existence of the Appa doesn't make the Atlantis less or obsolete. Redundant for sure, but we have a lot of redundancy in our line. It's better than having less of it and a bunch of good-for-one-thing bikes, right?

[Wayne Naha]

From the Blug, on the premier of the Joe Appaloosa:

If it’s “half Sam, half Hunqa,” howzit different than an Atlantis?

Boy, that’s a good, tough question and the only way to answer it is with facts, so here they are:

• Atlantis has a thicker/heavier duty fork. Even though we call the Atlantis a road-touring bike, too, the heavier fork make it a heavier duty bike. Good for an extra 60lbs or so. 

So, it's clear that the overlap between the Appaloosa and the Atlantis has been known all along, and the main functional distinction is that the Atlantis is a heavier duty bike.

I have always thought that the Sam was a sort of lower cost analog of the Homer.  So it made sense to me to think of the Appaloosa as a lower cost analog of the Atlantis.  Not exactly the same in either case, but pretty close, and for almost half the price.

On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 11:07:18 PM UTC-5, Reid wrote:

[Grant Petersen]

The 2017 Joe Ap forks are Atlantis-weight. The 2016s were between Sam and Atl. Both are strong..

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[Bob Lovejoy]

I know the overall capability of the Atlantis and the Appaloosa is nearly the same, at least their design was aimed in the same direction.  That said, and referring to another thread here, the effective top tube on the JA is significantly longer than the effective TT on the Atlantis.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and if you are going to use upswept/upright bars, the Appaloosa may be even be a better choice.  But... that long top tube on the Appa, advantageous as it might be for the backswept bars of choice, makes it problematic to go with drop bars, given average human dimensions anyway.

So, I guess my point is I definitely see them as two distinct bikes, though they may have the same goals, they approach those goals in some important and different ways.

And, if I could(!), I would have one of each.... yes I would.

Bob Lovejoy

Galesburg, IL

Just because I think it is one of the most righteous looking bikes I have ever seen... I refer you to "Jonathan's Appaloosa".  It is certainly bikes like this that will let you see the essence of Atlantis, newly interpreted...

http://theradavist.com/2016/03/jonathans-rivendell-joe-appaloosa-touring-bike/#16

[Grant @ Rivendell]

On the tube top question---

There is "on paper" length and "anatomical effect." On paper the Joe Ap is longer, but that means you ride a 9 instead of an 11 stem. And the higher bars possible with the Appa bring back them back toward you more and at the same time have a lengthening effect on your arms (see "Vitruvian man"). Finally — well, I actually kinda doubt that, but it's all fun anyway — the original Atlantis midsise small wheel was 26, and the Appa's is 650B, and when we came out with Atlantis, 35mm to 38mm tires were common on it, and now--the combo of 650+fatter in general, raises the requirement for longer front centers. As I like to say, "these things get ultramajorly thoughten about before they show up in steel!"
But also yes, there has been an emotional and an actual shift away from locking into drops on a touring bike. Touring and generally useful bikes aren't anymore the poor kin of racing road bikes, and with so many good non-drop bar shapes out there, it's not necessary (tho still not stupid) to ride drops. Freedom from drops means freedom to design around the other good bars with grip areas for the most part behind the stem clamp, not in front of it, as on a drop. When you throw that into the pot, there's room to increase the bike's front wheelbase a bit, too, and adding a cm or even 3m to the tt  is a good way to do that.    If we had to make only one bike, it'd be the Appa--no question, for me. But for better or worse we have about 6 models. Wait till you see the Roadini. I think any of the latest Rosco Roadish bikes with tons of clearance and cantilever ride as well as any road bike and have tons of clearance, but we've wanted to do a cheaper version of the Roadeo for a while, and we're gonna do that this Spring or Summer. Sidepulls, 130 rear wheel, all the road stuff.

[Abcyclehank]

Grant,
Will the Roadini come in a 68cm? JK. Thanks for all the great bike you have put out for us vertically challenged riders in the 100cm pbh range. You have provided a freedom, and returned that childlike existence to my riding career. Forever indebted to you, your vision, and RBW as a whole. The staff and team you put together is amazing every one I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with.

sincerely,
Ryan Hankinson
68cm Atlantis
68cm Custom
Future owner of
"Jumbo" large HHH
Will's Rosco Mountain Mixte

p.s. I know those on the other side of the spectrum are just as happy as I.

[dougP]

Grant:

While you're fielding questions, what is the significance of frame sizes listed in red on the new geo charts?  I realize they are new, but does this indicate they will be the only ones offered in the future, with the black ones as historical references?

Doug Peterson

[Garth]

Yes, in regard to tt length I gotta say the addition of the stack and reach give a much clearer picture for comparing frames. I was surprised to see how 2 seeminngly very different tt length frames could be so close in actual reach, so 3 cheers for the reach and stack listings☺ Really helpful to visualize.

[John Hawrylak]

Grant

I agree with your points on JA vs Atlantis.  I remember the Top Tube Ruse article and Mutton Chop Marv.  Just 1 question:

If you were riding 6 to 8 hours, would you take the JA with swept back bars and more upright position, or the Atlantis with drop bars even or slightly above saddle height?  Ignore any weight or tubing differences. 

Thanks

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[R Shannon]

John, just my 2 cents but my Atlantis has drop bars and I've done all day rides with no problem as I'm sure other Atlantis owners in the group have too.

My limited experience with upright bars (Albatross) leads me to believe doing an all dayer would not be as comfortable but YMMV.

Full disclosure: I currently have Noodles on all my rides. The drops don't get much use but all the other locations do.

Regards,

Richard

Sent from my iPhone

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[Matt B.]

+1 on drops being more comfortable on all day rides, especially multiple consecutive all day rides.   And especially Noodles :)

[Grant Petersen]

So far the plan is something like (by memory, I'm not at work)
62-16
58-22
55-22
51-20

48-10   90 total

From my point of view it should be easy to sell those, because if you WANT a road bike the Roadini should stop you in your tracks...but I am not good at those kinds of predictions.

I expect some will go to dealers, and we'll end up with about 60 bikes to sell. I'm working on a flyer--attached. We'll start including this in orders and put it online soon. It may have typos, but it's not final.

I expect this will be our only run of them. We have to be careful, we can't afford to store bikes...and if it so happens that OUR customers don't want this kind of bike, we aren't going to get any more of them, and lesson learned. I'll get one myself--it's been years since I've had a road bike, and I do come from there and don't hate them, and it IS my company and all...and when, in the flyer, I talk about a prospective buyer who kinda wants a road bike but can't or won't spend a lot of money on it and likes variety--- it's entirely about me there--but there must be some others.

To get to Ryan's question: If these sell well, we'll do one more run, and if we can get commitments for six big-boy Roadini frames, we'll make ten of them.

The graphics are good. There are some neat things on it--it's far from a generic cheap tig bike. Too early for geometry stuff. I have that, of course, but basically it's a predictable Rivendell, and I hope that gives some comfort to anybody who might worry. I didn't look up "contemporary road bike frame geometry" and go from there.

That's all I can say about the Roadini until we get our samples.

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[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

Besides all the technical differences....there's a deep and abiding appreciation that I have a choice between a MUSA frame and import frame with similar design considerations across the Riv spectrum.  RBW is beyond unique in that respect.   

[Grant @ Rivendell]

I had to check out the red to see. Red seems to be new--like, the 650B Hunqa sizes and the 65 Atlantis. That's another Venn diagram overlap functional problem. If we had room and money we could have bikes in stock all the time, all sizes and models -- kind of like what Surly's like, I imagine--or any other big bike company. Our way is to break ourselves and risk a lot on one run of bikes/frames after another, and hope for the best. It's probably good for the models, because we don't commit to things we're not fully behind, but it's bad in other ways---

[John G.]

COSIGNED! I just recently purchased an Atlantis, and having a choice was a wonderful thing.

Also, everyone should just get an Atlantis. 

[Wayne Naha]

It's all about having the choice!  Joe Appaloosa may cover the same functional range of the Atlantis, but that's not the end of the story.  The Atlantis has a style and grace all it's own.  The Appaloosa has it's own, too, but different.  And that's the choice.  An embarrassment of riches, perhaps.  A good problem to have.

On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 9:11:39 AM UTC-5, Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles wrote:

[Stephen Kemp]

I have done all-dayers (~80 miles on mixed terrain) on albatross bars. Enjoyment all the way - no issues whatsoever. Hoping to do a 100 mile day this year.

I haven't used it for multi-day long rides (i.e. touring use).

[Bill Lindsay]

The Roadini frame and fork for $800.  That's an incredibly good price.  And that new ball and socket seat lug!  Gotta have it.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

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[Patrick Moore]

Bill: where is all this info and display about the Roadini? I did too look, and I still can't find it.

How does the Roadini compare with the Roadeo:

Tubing?

Geometry?

At just more than 1/3 of the Roadeo, it won't look as nice, but then all the Riv bikes I've seen, in person and in photo, look far better than many of the bikes I've yearned for in the past. I'm sure that a $800 road frame from Riv will look better than most on the road.

[Tim Gavin]

I'm still curious how the ball-and-socket seat lug will be finished.  Will the ball be brazed into the socket?  Seems legit.

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[Bill Lindsay]

Patrick Moore inquired about the brochure.  He doesn't (can't?) view this google group on a web browser, so he doesn't have this entire thread conveniently laid out before him.  

Grant attached a pdf brochure to his post about 12 hours ago (Lob knows why he was up so late).  It had no geometry chart, but it did have a list of nominal sizes and the PBH ranges for each.  It says nothing specific about tubing, except that it's heavier than Roadeo tubing.  The brochure invites us to email grant to register interest.  I'm sure he'll send you a copy of the pdf brochure if you are unable to see it as a determined email-only viewer.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Ray Varella]

Patrick,
I just sent the PDF that Grant posted.
Check your email and see if you are able to open it.

Ray
Vallejo CA

[Mark in Beacon]

I agree. The fact that it is a tig-welded bicycle is about the 87th thing I think of when looking at my Clementine. Which means I've never really thought of it as such.

On Monday, March 6, 2017 at 2:30:50 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

...all the Riv bikes I've seen, in person and in photo, look far better than many of the bikes I've yearned for in the past. I'm sure that a $800 road frame from Riv will look better than most on the road.

.

[Will]

You retain the Atlantis because it is the seminal design that put Rivendell on the map. If you ride one you will get this. It's a great bike.

[Clayton]

Reid, 

Because....It's an Atlantis. If Grant quit selling the perfect bike, I would have such an anxiety attack, that it would be fatal. (He can't kill me....He has a conscience.)  He can't quit selling them either, it would be like an ice cream store that didn't serve Rocky Road, or a pretty girl who refuses to smile, or a springtime without flowers.  Rivendell just wouldn't be Rivendell without the Atlantis. I bought mine in '98-ish (Toyo) and have ridden it almost daily ever since (except downtime from surgeries and ALL THIS FRICKING SNOW) . It is just one of those things that happens.... I have had three back surgeries, (12 total) and my Atlantis is more comfortable than my old Easy Racer recumbent... True story... 

Clayton (Bendite)

[R Shannon]

Clayton, bravo to you! And a passionate case for the venerable Atlantis.

Regards,

Richard

Sent from my iPhone

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[dougP]

I'll second that.  Whenever I yearn for a new bike, I can never think of anything that I do that my Atlantis can't handle (granted, my demands are not great).  So a new bike would be redundant.

BTW, Clayton, there's a list member in Canada who often posts photos from his snow camping S240s on his Atlantis.  So snow shouldn't be an impediment.  Easy for me to say; I've never lived with the stuff.

dougP

[Bill Lindsay]

" So a new bike would be redundant."

you say that like it's a bad thing.  N-PLUS-ONE!!!

[Les Lammers]

It's just nice to have choices. :-)

[Dave Johnston]

Did the top tube length change on the 2017 Appaloosa? In the old chart (attached) the 51cm model says Top Tube of "56.5cm", the new chart shows the Top tube as "57.5".  Or is this just a matter of effective vs actual?


https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry
vs

[Bob Lovejoy]

Not that I know for sure but I am guessing it is actual vs effective.  That said, having two different numbers out there can be confusing unless you are paying pretty close attention.  I was looking at the 58cm Appaloosa figures the other night and noticed the 59.7 vs. 61.5 top tube lengths given.  The 61.5 is noted as effective TT and I think that is right (though an assumption).  I take it the 59.7 must be actual, but again... 

I will throw in that Grant came in to another thread to talk about TT lengths as applied to bikes designed for higher bar positioning and I do get that.  I also really appreciate his input on these things!  That said, the two numbers do bug me and might confuse someone making the big decision(s).

In my wanderings that night, I re-read the Adventure Cycling review of the Appaloosa, a 58cm, that they state as having a 59.7 "effective" TT.  Wrong I am guessing?!  But they saw that number in a chart and assumed effective.  Or, heck, maybe it is?

https://www.adventurecycling.org/adventure-cyclist/online-features/road-test-rivendell-joe-appaloosa/

Anyway, hopefully someone knows about any changes.  I will say, if I had extra money and the fleet of bikes was not so crazy here, I would be ordering an Appaloosa, and that's the truth.

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[Mark in Beacon]

That's interesting, because with t he 51, the front center stays the same, at 606. But with the next two sizes, the tt changes, but so does the front center. So in the 55cm,  Old tt, 59.7, new, 61.5. Old fc, 627.4., new 645. Similar changes with the geo of the 58 size, where the tt length changes the front center. The smallest and largest frame sizes have the same numbers in both new and old charts.

My first guess would be that there was a tweak with the two middle sizes, and that the 51 number was a misprint or mismeasure in one or the other of the charts. Or it could be that the numbers got confused on the old chart, or some other possibility. (I assume the tt measurements in both charts are "virtual" as there would be little immediately useful information imparted by publishing the actual measurements on a sloping design.)

Opinionated Opinion on Bicycle Geometry
I know lots of people who are infected enough with the bike bug to spend time on bicycle groups care a lot about these numbers. I find them interesting for the general picture--I prefer slacker seat tube angles (partially so I can run my leather saddles comfortably) and longer stays (originally for heel clearance). But when I bought my Clementine, I just plugged my SH number into the chart and went with that. 98% of human bodies fall within a range that a good bicycle designer can accommodate. Especially with a low volume producer and a designer with a public presence, after that I assume that, given the model bicycle and what it is for, the designer will have worked out the more esoteric numbers so that it all works. I know there are RBW members who have gotten bikes they did not feel comfortable on, and a number who never pull the trigger because, despite the PBH/SH chart they are certain they are between sizes, and that may be. I'm certainly not saying the numbers should not be available, and if there are mistakes they need to be fixed. But I have seen folks worried about millimeters in tt length. The human body is even more amazing than the bicycle, and can adapt to a decent range of set measurements, which of course can be tweaked with stems, seatposts, handlebars, etc. without any big compromise in comfort or performance. Just my two cents, I realize probably not exactly a consensus view on RBW! Enjoy your ride today!