MUSA? Completely gone? Coming back?

[Ron Mc]

I just referred someone to MUSA shorts on another forum - now I can't find even knickers on Rivbike?  

What's us?  

[iamkeith]

I think i saw a mention in a recent newsletter that a limited run might be in the works later this year? Don't quote me, though. I'm keeping my eye out but not my hopes up. Sounds like it wasn't good from a business standpoint, because of the need to purchase a full run of sizes - many of which languished on the shelves forever.

[John Hawrylak]

WRT Knickers, RBW would be better to stay with the traditional length, just below the knees.  The last run had a length just above the ankles and looked like pants that were too short.  I do not what they were thinking.  No wonder they languished on the shelf.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 1:46:16 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

At least 4" below knee. Please! Otherwise, when you cinch them tight just below the knee, there is not enough slack to allow you to bend your leg comfortably through the pedal stroke. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.

By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.

Other professional writing services.

http://www.resumespecialties.com/

www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

****************************************************************************************

The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Stat crux dum volvitur orbis. (The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) Carthusian motto

It is we who change; He remains the same. Eckhart

Kinei hos eromenon. (It moves [all things] as the beloved.) Aristotle

[iamkeith]

Goes to show how hard it is to please everybody, i guess. I LOVED the longer knickers, and i have shortish legs.

I'm talking out my a** now, but i don't think and didn't mean to suggest that some design feature made them unpopular. My understanding is that the manufacturer needs/expects to do a certain minimum order quantity for each size ordered. So if Riv wanted to cater to the full range, they end up with lots of the less popular sizes remaining unsold.

Case in point, we can just imagine how much whining there would be if someone's size was eliminated, and a decision was made to cater only to the "average" customers.

[Deacon Patrick]

Knickers, er, Breeches, uh, Breeks, are an old garment type and, as Patrick of the Moore points out, they are supposed to extend below the knee when unchinced so that when cinched above the calf there is room to move. My traditional birding moleskin breeks I am using this winter come down to mid-calm uncinched and fit perfectly when cinched, allowing full range of motion, including fully kneel and squat.

With abandon,

Patrick, who is sticking with cotton or wool from now on because it is SO much quieter than nylon.

[Patrick Moore]

Patrick the Deacon: can you point me to the source for your moleskins?

I made several pairs of very nice riding knickers out of good quality men's dress pants, simply by having them hemmed 6 or 8" below knee, and having velcro straps added. I still have one pair, and I dearly wish I hadn't disposed of the very nice heavy twill gabardine pair I foolishly sold. But of course, while these are fine down to the 20sF, I have windproof tights for colder.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Deacon Patrick]

Aye. http://www.orvis.com/p/moleskin-breeks/4y47s 

Most colors/sizes gone, as they are on clearence ($113, retail $250).

Riding with them so far they are good up to 50˚F and down to at least 10˚F and 50 mph winds with no long johns under them. Followed the recommendation to size up 2 sizes and mine fit perfectly.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 12:47:15 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

Patrick the Deacon: can you point me to the source for your moleskins?

I made several pairs of very nice riding knickers out of good quality men's dress pants, simply by having them hemmed 6 or 8" below knee, and having velcro straps added. I still have one pair, and I dearly wish I hadn't disposed of the very nice heavy twill gabardine pair I foolishly sold. But of course, while these are fine down to the 20sF, I have windproof tights for colder.

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com> wrote:

Knickers, er, Breeches, uh, Breeks, are an old garment type and, as Patrick of the Moore points out, they are supposed to extend below the knee when unchinced so that when cinched above the calf there is room to move. My traditional birding moleskin breeks I am using this winter come down to mid-calm uncinched and fit perfectly when cinched, allowing full range of motion, including fully kneel and squat.

With abandon,

Patrick, who is sticking with cotton or wool from now on because it is SO much quieter than nylon.

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 12:11:24 PM UTC-7, John Hawrylak wrote:

WRT Knickers, RBW would be better to stay with the traditional length, just below the knees.  The last run had a length just above the ankles and looked like pants that were too short.  I do not what they were thinking.  No wonder they languished on the shelf.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 1:46:16 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:

I just referred someone to MUSA shorts on another forum - now I can't find even knickers on Rivbike?  

What's us?  

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[lum gim fong]

Why knickers in the first place?

If it is warm enough for shorts, I'd wear shorts.

Too cold for shorts? I'd opt for full length pants for full coverage.

Why chill the olde shin bones with knickers? 

[Patrick Moore]

Knicker socks, like those from Bicycle Fixations. More flexible than long pants.

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Deacon Patrick]

Take a rubberband or strap and snug up your pants just below your knee (squat as you do so, to allow for proper fit above the knee). Tuck your lower pants into a tall sock. Move. Ride. No constant pulling of the pants up and down the leg. Less energy. Less constant clothing motion. If needed, add high socks or leg warmers below the knee. Plenty warm.

With abandon,

Patrick

[John Hawrylak]

Patrick

Ok, now I understand why the extra length is required.  Thanks.  I do NOT remember any mention of why you need the extra length in the RBW description of the longer knickers. 

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Patrick Moore]

John: I owned a pair of the first gen MUSA knickers and they were just long enough to cinch under the knee and allow free movement; another inch would have been good. Apparently the 2nd gen were as you say like long pants that weren't quite long enough. They were also a lot baggier -- not my cuppa, either.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[John Hawrylak]

Patrick

again thanks for the explanations.  Yes, Gen 2 was baggier and RBW seemed to "crow" about it.

Compass has a nice pair, have you looked at theirs??  They do not seem to be 4" below the knee from the pictures???   They are pricey, but in line with Compass stuff.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 7:17:56 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

John: I owned a pair of the first gen MUSA knickers and they were just long enough to cinch under the knee and allow free movement; another inch would have been good. Apparently the 2nd gen were as you say like long pants that weren't quite long enough. They were also a lot baggier -- not my cuppa, either.

On Sun, Dec 4, 2016 at 3:36 PM, John Hawrylak <john.h...@verizon.net> wrote:

Patrick

Ok, now I understand why the extra length is required.  Thanks.  I do NOT remember any mention of why you need the extra length in the RBW description of the longer knickers. 

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 2:15:30 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

At least 4" below knee. Please! Otherwise, when you cinch them tight just below the knee, there is not enough slack to allow you to bend your leg comfortably through the pedal stroke. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Patrick Moore]

I thought of the Compass knickers, but Jan's description made them seem to thin -- I don't want to be obliged to wear tights under them when it gets cold.

I found an excellent deal on 2 pr of Endura "Urban" pants at an apparently Spain-based vendor called "Bike Inn." The list is, IIRC, $98, but I got 2 shipped from Europe for $119. It took 3 weeks, but the online tracking system worked pretty well, and the vendor answered questions quickly.

Segue: the Urban pants (I think Endura is Scottish?) are 85/100, the missing 15% mostly because for my particular taste (I have a 6 footer's torso on a 5'10" body, and my father used to call me the "hipless wonder) the waist is too low in the back, despite the marketing materials claiming they are cut high in back for cycling. Another inch would have been just right. Also, they are about 1" too wide at the hems to stay fully away from the chain; I'll have to peg the right leg slightlh. But those problems aside, everything else is 100%: they fit well; the material is good quality, just the right weight for me, and slightly stretchy; the sewing is good; the hardware is good; they have a good zip fly with hook and button dual closure; 2 regular side pockets; 2 rear pockets (zipped, but I don't need zips); and most important of all, they look close enough to real roadie cycling tights that I can read Velominati and still hold my head high.

I found 2 big flaws with the first gen MUSA knickers: (1) they were too low in back; and (2) they had no fly -- ie, sweatpants style front. Otherwise -- but those for me are big "buts" -- they would have been 100% too.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Garth]

  The pants seemed a bit odd to me.  For one, for a company  that promotes wearing "normal" clothes the pants with the reflectors and large velcro straps reminded me of a fireman's pant,  not a "normal" looking pant at all.  For comparison, he Compass knicker looks like a  normal knicker anyone would wear any place. 

   The cut of them could be improved too, a good pair of pants is as well thought out as a say a good frame is.  Can you please everyone ?  Yes, absolutely, and the idea that you cannot is nonsensical.

[Ron Mc]

I live and ride in the shorts in summer, ride in the knickers all winter, and live in the pants all winter.  

The pants always get compliments

[Marc Irwin]

I couldn't care less about the knickers, but I wear the pants and shorts all the time.  I hope they continue those.  The only problem I've had is the rear pockets  tearing  on several pairs I use commuting.

Marc

[Matt B.]

I've never found anything to work significantly better than a pair of dickies work pants with maybe a strap for the drive-side pant leg depending on the size of the leg opening. I love the MUSA half-mitts though, especially since they added the warm lining.  I'd also be psyched if they bring back the MUSA moleskin shirt-  it's great 2/3rds of the year, I'd definitely get another one.

[Edwin W]

Garth,

I didn't like the pants at first. A bit baggy, didn't like the look. I didn't mind the reflectors, and my generation has zippers instead of velcro.

Over time, I have come to appreciate them for super casual uses: biking and camping, mostly. And for that they are great. Super comfy and don't take up much space so I might throw them on for a road trip as I did over Thanksgiving. 

Edwin

[Edwin W]

Garth,

I didn't like the pants at first. A bit baggy, didn't like the look. I didn't mind the reflectors, and my generation has zippers instead of velcro.

Over time, I have come to appreciate them for super casual uses: biking and camping, mostly. And for that they are great. Super comfy and don't take up much space so I might throw them on for a road trip as I did over Thanksgiving. 

Edwin

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 7:16:26 AM UTC-6, Garth wrote:

[Julian Westerhout]

Garth, 

FWIW, your assertion that knickers can ever look "normal" for everyday wear strikes me as odd. I can only recall twice seeing someone wearing knickers on the street. While they might be handy, they're hardly "normal" attire. In addition, I found the velcro straps very handy indeed. I respect your living in a knickerized world, as well as your aversion to reflective stripes and velcro. Difference in attire preferences are a-ok. 

These differences in our taste and experience would seem to indicate that it is not possible to please everyone with each product. I'm not sure why you'd say that's nonsensical -- it's really the basis for market segmentation and Riv's existence -- and certainly for most, if not all, of the MUSA clothing line. 

Ride on, 

Julian "happy to live in a not all things please all people world" Westerhout

Bloomington, IL  

On Monday, December 5, 2016 at 7:16:26 AM UTC-6, Garth wrote:

[BenG]

I have enjoyed the shirts that Rivendell sells, and still wear some old ones -Viyella overstocks, Rockmount varieties - and newer ones branded MUSA. My shorts and pants will outlast me (except maybe the boosuckers), but I'll miss those shirts in a few years. I will order mass qtys if the chance comes around again.

[Grant @ Rivendell]

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 10:46:16 AM UTC-8, Ron Mc wrote:

I just referred someone to MUSA shorts on another forum - now I can't find even knickers on Rivbike?  

What's us?  

MUSA may be the longest-running flop in the RBW micro-empire. As anybody who knows me knows, I am never not wearing MUSA bottoms of some kind. My favorite (and I think DPatrick's favorite) are the knickers. I'm less fashionable than most (excess bagginess doesn't bother me, but any restriction does). My wife won't let me wear MUSA bottoms of any kind to any event that involves cloth napkins or a piano, and in this family there's a lot of those.   Plus, as I get reminded of frequently even on this fantastic list, there are all sorts of cheaper alternatives. The recommendations come up in the form of turning our  cyberpals onto bargains we've found elsewhere. It's true that our $90 flannel shirts seem like a bad deal compared to Bean's $45 flannels. Pants are the same.
I never expected "MUSA" to be a huge draw, but I underestimated its appeal....or the cost-realities of making and selling commodities in the USA.

I like the long knickers because they can double as pants, so you don't have to be the guy walking the aisles of TJ's getting odd glances from the ladies. I adjust the elastic so they're loose extended, but in half a second I can pull them up above the calf and pedal a greasy chainring all clear. Probably that's why DP likes them, too! But in the past, it has taken us two years to sell forty of them, and it doesn't work.

By Dec 15 we'll get in about 80 of the "new-improved" MUSA pants, probably our last run of them. They're 2-inches shorter, no zip, no lower cinch velcro, no reflective stripe in back, a more relaxed elastic in the waist (but the same fit). We'll see how they go. They'll be gray with blue meshy pockets (if that fabric ever came in), and there was a decent reason for every change, but every time you change X to X.5, somebody wants the original X, and the default perception is that X.5 is a cheapening, even when it was an attempt to improve.

I DIG the MUSA stuff. Halfmitts were perfect on yesterday's ride! Splats are miles ahead of the next best raincovers for shoes! But overall, MUSA has been a 14-year flop. I am glad to have my personal stash of MUSA knickers and pants and shorts that'll last the next 20 years...but I really want some of the new pants, too. This is not a tricky psychological attempt to drum up MUSA pants sales when they come in. It's just the way MUSA has gone around here, and anybody here will vouch for me. Thank you to all who've bought something!
G

[Patrick Moore]

Which pants are you referring to? MUSA?

On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 6:16 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

  The pants seemed a bit odd to me.  For one, for a company  that promotes wearing "normal" clothes the pants with the reflectors and large velcro straps reminded me of a fireman's pant,  not a "normal" looking pant at all.  For comparison, he Compass knicker looks like a  normal knicker anyone would wear any place. 

   The cut of them could be improved too, a good pair of pants is as well thought out as a say a good frame is.  Can you please everyone ?  Yes, absolutely, and the idea that you cannot is nonsensical.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Bill Lindsay]

The MUSA wool undies are the best boxer briefs ever, IMO.  $40 a pair for undies is crazy for people who are used to buying undies at Walmart or similar, but in my opinion life is too short to wash with boring soap and life is too short to wear lame undies.  If MUSA undies ever come back, I'm in for 10 of them.  I will buy Devolds as my current MUSAs get rotated out, but I'm still holding out hope for more MUSAs.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Deacon Patrick]

Aye, Grant. I used to only wear a kilt. I quickly realized my aversion to pants was all the rubbing they do. For a wimpy brain like mine, that's a lot of neural input, and near a day's allotment in just an hour. That was unsustainable. So was a kilt on a bike. Knickers are brilliant (I only wear mine snug below the knee). They are intended for athletic use, freedom of motion. They are, in essence, for people who wear kilts but need to ride horses or bikes. Grin. They allow full freedom of motion required by "floor living" (no bed or chairs). I personally prefer less baggy that Grant, more baggy than many of the "modern" takes out there, and only recently tried the moleskin from Denmark. Their natural material silence is wondrous (again, a wimpy brain stimulation issue).

Without Grant, I don't know how long it would have taken me to find daily wear knickers/breeks/breeches. Thank you, Grant!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Grant Petersen]

Clothing companies with staff designers can please more people than bicycle companies trying their hand at clothing, that's for sure. Making one style and fit of anything and trying to fit the O's and I's, the short and tall, the ones who like a tailored fit and the ones who don't, and that's even before style and colors join in--- is more challenging than it may seem. Reality is harder than theory. I'm off of this topic--back to bikes, point made I hope.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/B3M5x94qyD0/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Patrick Moore]

Hey, Grant: I've owned enough of Rivendell clothing to confidently assert that, in my own very personal experience, the pluses far outweigh the minuses.

Here's an idea (puhleeze?): bring back some of the Wooly Warm stuff. I have that Wooly Warm ragg-type over-jersey (4-or-so button plaquet, rear buttoned pockets, high faux turtleneck riding "sweater." What a wonderful garment! Even here in high desert ABQ, NM, winter humidity levels reach to the 60s, but at 40*F on a winter morning, with 55% humidity, a ls merino jersey under that WW over-jersey is just the ticket. And, what's even better, when riding home 3 hours later, and the temps soar to 60*, you can unbutton the plaquet and be perfectly comfortable..

Another instance: I bought a LS Rivendell wool jersey, I think iteration 2 -- half-zip plaquet, not the side button style -- second hand, only it was Large, and in this particular garment, I need a Medium. I washed it Hot and dried it Hotter, and the damned thing didn't shrink a mm. No worries, I gave it to my brother who is 4" taller and 40 lb heavier, and this after using it myself for a year or 2. 

I coveted one of those WW vests, but never had the cash when they were available.

[lum gim fong]

My gray/blue MUSA long pants have been great.

Glad to hear of more normal looking ones coming down the pike. Not having Velcro and reflective stripe is a plus for meeting the wife at restaurants.

With the reflective stripes people may think either bike clothes or prison clothes or road worker clothes. Ha ha!

It is a shame that MUSA stuff is so expensive these days, not just with bike stuff, but other things as well.

Musical instruments, for example.

Shame no one can work MUSA and make a living wage anymore except for management, sales and execs.

Even though some states are trying, 15$ hour minimum wage is still not a livable wage in this day and age.

[Tim]

I would like to thank Grant for trying so hard for 14 years to bring MUSA to us. It is that ethos that in great part has kept me coming again and again to Riv. His decision to pay his employees well and IIRC, for them to have a 401k, and his support of charities is a business model that, were I ever to go into business, I would emulate. You know, he could have thrown those principles under the bus and probably made quite a bit more money, but he chose not to. I for one, would happily pay an extra 50 cents for a burger if it meant the guy or gal cooking it and taking my order had a living wage. I'd pay an extra buck if they could make $20 an hour. And I put my money where my mouth is. I haven't set foot in a Wal-Mart, for low prices or convenience or any other reason, for over 5 years. Oh, and back to the OT, I love the knickers (mine don't have velcro) and the shorts. I don't have the pants because I wouldn't like them. And I have 2 wooly-warm turtlenecks, itchy and warm as can be!

Tim "Third Generation Union Ironworker" Kirch

[Joe Bernard]

I have two pair of MUSA shorts of various vintage/shades of green, which I wear pretty much every day for 3/4s of the year here in sunny (currently cold) California. I'll pick up another in black if Size L ever comes in again.

I had the grey/blue pants for a while, but outgrew them (read: pedaled less, gained weight). I'll definitely buy the new version when you get them going. I love my WoolyWarm pants I bought from Beth ages ago, but they don't really work as daily off-the-bike pants because they have more of a 'tights' taper on the legs. Great stuff for cold rides, though..I'm going to miss them when they finally give up.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

[thalasin]

Big bummer.  I love the MUSA stuff (especially the knickers) and am happy to support the endeavor.  I was hoping for another run of knickers and shorts so that I could stock up for the next 20 years but it sounds like I might not get the chance.  I shall cling to what I have until it's threadbare and in tatters.

Tracy in Denver

[iamkeith]

Yeah, me too. I've said it before and might as well say it again: if there needs to be a commitment in the form of pre-orders, to make a run worthwhile, I'm down for several pairs of knickers and a couple pair of shorts at a minimum.

[BSWP]

I have worn out two pair of MUSA shorts, have one spare on hand, and wish I could get more. I have a pair of MUSA pants, and long for knickers. I wear size L, which quickly sells out, alas. But I do look forward to the next run of 80 pants, and will jump when they're offered. Oh, and the thin woolies... sigh! There's just nothing to compare, in my opinion, for cycling or backpacking.

- Andrew, Berkeley

[Ron Mc]

No offense to Grant, but I can find merino elsewhere.  It's MUSA pants, shorts and knickers I can't find substitutes.  (don't shorten the legs on the pants, part of what makes them work for me - ha)

[Ron Mc]

I have a review on Karpos knickers, which I bought from Holland. Sat in customs for 3 weeks, but finally arrived this week.  

I tried some Garneau knickers which are good, but these are much better.  

They feel tight when you put them on, then they disappear..  They stretch everywhere really.  Everyone should like the length, and I really dig the cinch at the bottom of the legs.  

They're soft and light, don't need a belt (the Garneau do).  

The seams are so soft they don't mark your saddle  

I like the Karpos as almost as much as MUSA knickers.  

[Ron Mc]

here's the link for the Karpos knickers

https://www.trekkinn.com/outdoor-mountain/karpos-casatsch-baggy-3-4/137009/p&cesta_post=542306_1_null&idiomap=eng&pxst=210

[John Hawrylak]

Ron

Does the Karpos knickers remain below your knee when riding??  

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Patrick Shea]

How is the sizing? I have some MUSA large pants and they are perfect. The inseam sounds out of proportion to the waist sizing.

Cheers,

Patrick

--

[Patrick Moore]

That would also be my question. I just took a pair of wool dress pants to the tailor yesterday to be cut to knicker length, and for me, knicker length is long enough so that when I raise my knee above my waist, the hem can be cinched tightly just below the knee and just begin to bind. I suppose mine are really "plus 8s."

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Ron Mc]

I'm not going to compare them to MUSA, because MUSA are perfect in my book. . 

I'll compare them to the Garneau, which don't stay below your knee.  The knee gusset in the Garneau is comfortable, but it actually causes them to ride up , and the short velcro strap on the Garneau won't seal the wind out.  

The bottom cinch on the Karpos is the cinch on a quality weather shell and works great.  

[Patrick Moore]

I had a pair of the original MUSA knickers, and they were pretty good: perfect weight -- not too heavy, not too light; long enough to stay cinched below knee, but IMO, cut too low in the waist, and had no fly -- I wanna fly, unless I wear tights.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.