Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[John A. Bennett]

A Sam Hillborne was spotted in the same spot for weeks on end until someone finally cut the u-lock and posted this on Craigslist.

As of now, as far as I know, the Craigslist poster has not heard from the owner. 

Anyone out there?

https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/bik/d/found-rivendell-sam-hillborne/6474538877.html

All I know, 

John, in Portland (who isn't really in on the whole thing, just posting this here in the hopes it will raise owner) 

[Minh]

Wow, tough situation, on one hand it was locked up but otoh it was sitting there for weeks.  what's the right thing to do here?  do you leave it alone or do take it in assuming something bad?  interested to see what the story is behind this.

[MartyG]

Don't want to start a big thing here, but it seems to me that's outright theft. No different than seeing a car in the same spot for a while, breaking in and driving it off for "safe keeping". Not cool. Why not alert the proper authorities? My guess is even they would leave it be. No laws are being broken, right? If it gets stripped, that's too bad, but none of your business. Sorry to come across cold, but in my world this crosses a line, and if it was my bike and I saw this ad I would have the cops pay the C-lister a visit.

Marty

[Kainalu V.]

I'm with Marty.
-Kai
BK NY

[Joe Bernard]

Well-intentioned, but kinda weird. It's not my business how long someone parks their bike.

[Bill Lindsay]

It reminds me of a story from the late 80’s. Brian told me that he and his friends disapproved of guys who would go to ska-shows and start fights in the pit. These guys were looking for trouble. Brian’s solution was to go to shows with his friends, seek out those troublemakers, and ‘put them in the hospital ‘.

Me: Brian, doesn’t that mean you are going to shows, looking for trouble?
Brian: .... um .... what?

This guy is making the decision: “I’m afraid that bike will be stolen, so I stole it to keep it from being stolen”

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

[drew]

I don't know if i agree. A 3000$ bike, if truly and consistently left for weeks on end (and not just at the times that the person happens to drive by and see it), makes me think that something bad happened. Serious illness, injury, death... something that is preventing the owner from coming back to get it. I don't think i'd have stolen it back, but i do think that if/when the owner tries to retrieve it, they'll probably have better luck finding it in the bike community, than still locked up months later (i mean, realistically it wont last long.)

What i'm more curious about is how it wasn't stolen over weeks of sitting out.  I've had less nice bikes double u-locked and stolen while i was watching a movie. 

[Jon Dukeman,central Colorado]

Can someone get a serial # and trace it back to Rivendell.

[allenmichael]

Whatever this may have been, and whatever you may think about it, it was in no way theft. Theft always requires an intent to permanently deprive the owner of the property.

Here, the bike was in, some sense, abandoned. A list member secured the bike and is making earnest efforts to find the owner. If it was my bike, I might be grateful.

Michael Allen

[Kainalu V.]

But it's like letting the Orca starve because seals are so cute! Kind hearted do-gooders wouldn't be that without so much awful stuff in the world.

Not to say that we shouldn't be our best selves, but the fact is that's someone else's $3000 rusting away.

-Kai

BK NY

[Bill Lindsay]

Interesting. It isn’t theft if you take something that isn’t yours but don’t intend to permanently deprive the owner of the property.

So I could take a bike that isn’t mine, use it for six months and put it back where I ‘found’ it without committing theft? Is there a different statute I’ve broken in that situation?

[nash...@gmail.com]

I wonder what this would be in a legal sense? Would this legally be considered theft? I don't know. I assume it would be, regardless of intent.

[kobe]

How would the owner even know to check Craigslist for his bike?

[Doug H.]

I might have left a note on the bike asking the owner to call you if they have parked it long term or just happen to have it parked when you go by the spot. I'm sure they would appreciate the concern if they see the note. Otherwise, not a good idea to cut a lock and take a bike in my estimation, even though your intentions are good.

Doug

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 2:21:40 PM UTC-5, John A. Bennett wrote:

[Joe Bunik]

When the Craiglist ad expires in ~2 weeks, who will remember it?
Poster should at least make VERY PUBLICLY CLEAR and known his/her
name, address, phone number-- maybe then "the community" will be
better able to help connect the owner back with their stolen property.

=- Joe Bunik
Walnut Creek, CA

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[Jon Dukeman,central Colorado]

LOL 

 So there is this house that has had a car parked in front of the house for a month.Nobody has driven it.

You decide to take it in fear that someone might start  parting out the car and selling the parts.

You get caught with the car and you tell the police "Officer it was parked in front of that house for a month.

I just took it so nobody would steal it". Officer says " Oh Okay..Put your hands behind your back  .....

Officer gets back to the station and tells his buddies." Hey you should of heard the excuse a guy gave me for stealing this car.....

[RJM]

I do believe this is theft...might be well intentioned and the owner *might* get their bike bike but what does the person do if the owner can't be found? Bottom line is that the person cut the lock and took a bike that does not belong to them.

But, it may work out for the best in the end provided the lock cutter actually gets in contact with the owner. He/She should have provided a real picture of the bike in question though and contact Riv to do a serial number search.

I would not do what this person has done though.

[John A. Bennett]

I have exchanged emails with the Craigslist poster, and a guy who lives in the neighborhood where this took place has spoken with him in person at his place of business. 

While I lack the proper tools to investigate/examine the inner workings of his mind/heart/soul/whatever your reference point, he seems legit and well-intentioned, and the person who spoke with him in person agrees. 

The fact that the owner of the bike in question has not surfaced lends credence to the tale, it seems. I know that if my bike was missing, I'd be all over Craigslist, bike forums, email lists, etc. looking for it. 

All I know,

John

Comrade, (But Not) Detective

[drew]

yeah. If you've ever had a bike stolen and don't check craigslist, you either don't care to get it back or you are living in another age.  the ad can be re-upped with a click of a button. its not like you can only post something on craigslist once. the fact that we are all talking about it means that it has been advertised. none of us were looking for a stolen bike and even we know. imagine if you were looking. 

[lconley]

I haven't had a bike stolen since 1977 and it would never have occurred to me to check Craigslist if I had one stolen up until I read this thread. Maybe the bike belongs to another clueless old guy like me.

Laing

Cocoa, FL

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 3:23:21 PM UTC-5, drew wrote:

[drew]

right, but if one did get stolen now, you'd probably convey that information to someone (maybe here on the group, maybe a bike shop), and that someone would probably ask you if you had checked craigslist. you wouldn't just give up on it and wander the streets, right?

[lconley]

A year ago, I would have reported it to the police and given up on it (and maybe declared a theft loss on my tax return). I have never recovered anything that was stolen (including 3 bikes 1977 and earlier).

Laing

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 3:37:39 PM UTC-5, drew wrote:

[drew]

Gotcha. Well with both bikes and 2 wheelsets i've had stolen in the last 10 years, each cop has told me to watch craigslist diligently. 

[Norman Bone]

Apologies if this has been mentioned already.

Let me take a moment to plug https://bikeindex.org/

The Portland cops check it and I imagine other jurisdictions do as well.

Norman 'Locked and unloaded' Bone in Portland, OR

---

From: lconley <lco...@brph.com>
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 1, 2018 12:42 PM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Houseless Sam Hillborne in Portland, Oregon

[Jeff Lesperance]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 2:23 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Interesting. It isn’t theft if you take something that isn’t yours but don’t intend to permanently deprive the owner of the property.

So I could take a bike that isn’t mine, use it for six months and put it back where I ‘found’ it without committing theft?  Is there a different statute I’ve broken in that situation?

IANAL but I'll be darned if I didn't just ask the googler what the legal definition of theft is and the top results all appear to report similar definitions from a number of sources... and I found it on the Internet, so it must be true: "Theft is often defined as the unauthorized taking of property from another with the intent to PERMANENTLY DEPRIVE THEM OF IT" capitalization/yelling is my emphasis. Crazy, but sounds like you're in the clear, Bill, to go on that six month joy ride, as long as you only TEMPORARILY intend to deprive the owner of their bike. Good luck, enjoy the ride, let us know how it works out.

In the interest of looking for a different statue that may be broken in that situation, I searched "unauthorized borrowing" and only found legal references to plagiarism. Not only am I not a lawyer, I'm also not an author or writer, but I'm pretty sure any statutes regarding plagiarism won't be in play for a bike ride :) 

[Ian A]

In your example, Bill, that would be taking something with the intent to deprive it from the owner, even if only for a period of time,which would be an offense.  The CL poster has openly declared his intention and he would probably be able to demonstrate to police or the actual owner that he believed the bicycle was abandoned following a theft and out of civic duty wanted to make the bicycle safe in order to return it to it's owner.

This is definitely made complicated by the cutting of the lock. However, if he and ill intention and wanted to ultimately keep the bike, he could have dropped it off at a police station, not mentioned the cutting of the lock and then in three months time or whatever, made a finder's claim for the bicycle. 

The CL lister's heart seems to be very much in the right place. He;s actually taken a bit of a risk in being charged with theft in order to help someone. Maybe he should have simply reported it to the police and left it at that, but realistically, the police would likely have done nothing.

IanA/Canada

[Bill Lindsay]

Jeff

I did the identical googlings, for theft and unauthorized borrowing --> plagiarism.  It's like we used the same interwebz

[Bill Lindsay]

Ian

In my example I take it with the intent of temporarily depriving the owner.  Only six months!  If that's enough for 'theft' aka 'larceny', the why does the wording include 'permanent'.  I agree with your common sense interpretation, Ian, but I can't explain the legal wording.  I'm not a lawyer.  

BL

[Ian A]

Bill: Borrowing without intent is an interesting argument, but I imagine a judge would not be easily convinced that it wasn't intention to permanently deprive.

IanA - also not a lawyer. Since when has common sense ever prevailed? Certainly rarely in my life!

[Bill Lindsay]

Here's another one:

I find a quarter on the street.  I take it without consent, with the intent to permanently deny the rightful owner of that property

I find a $20 bill on the street.  I take it without consent, with the intent to permanently deny the rightful owner of that property

I find $20,000 on the street.  I take it without consent, with the intent to permanently deny the rightful owner of that property

Are any of these 'theft'?   Probably.  Are they all 'theft'?  There's the 'petty theft' and 'grand theft' distinction, but I guess it's either all theft, or none of it is.  

B

p.s. I hope  I never find $20,000, because I'd want to keep it.  

[MartyG]

Many Super Blue Blood Moons ago, I penned this quaint verse for the now lost and forgotten A. Homer Hilsen website. Kind of apropos to bring it up in this thread, don't you think? 

The Resurrection of A. Homer Hilsen

There it was, there it sat.

Bars akimbo, tires flat.

 

Cluster missing, saddle worn.

Dangling hemp-wrap. Dusty. Torn.

 

Rubbed the down-tube, read the name:

A. Homer Hilsen – of Rivendell fame.

 

I knelt to worship and wondered why.

Lost, or stolen? Left to die?

 

Who would leave it? Could I? Could You?

I asked around, nobody knew.

 

I felt linked like a chain to its ultimate fate,

the local bike shop was open ‘till eight…

 

They told me the story of a man dressed in wool.

He lived in the country, his glass always half full.

 

The bike was his passion, his comfort, his dream.

Fittings for Mark’s rack, lugs filled with cream.

 

But no one had seen him, at least for a while.

The man had moved on. My lips cracked a small smile.

 

I asked the police what the policy was.

They showed me the poster: Auction by Fuzz.

 

I showed up quite early, on the day of the deal.

Misty and quiet, the sky painted like steel.

 

I noticed the Hilsen being eyed by a punk,

mixed in with the lawnmowers, car parts and junk.

 

He grabbed a brake lever and gave it a tug,

Spat on a pedal, then moved on with a shrug.

 

The auction moved slowly, through toilets and tools,

Something for everyone: the dealers, the fools.

 

And then it was up there, wheeled up by a cop.

The pads squealed on the front rim. It came to a stop.

The bidding began with the auctioneers’ pitch:

“A handsome blue bike for the not quite so rich!”

 

It was me and the punk, and a man I could see

who was standing alone near a lone Redwood tree.

 

It had to be mine. I just had to win.

To let Homer go home without me was a sin! 

 

The punk shrugged again when three figures were spoke.

Fished through his pockets, confirmed he was broke.

 

I looked near the tree, heard the faint ping of a bell,

The auctioneer paused, raised the gavel. It fell.

 

“It’s mine! Can’t believe it!” My grin ear to ear.

I cashed out in seconds, lost a fight with a tear.

 

I wheeled Hilsen homeward and vowed to be kinder.

Put him up on my work stand and loosened the binder.

 

I thought about fate, how I won, how I got’m.

Flipped the frame in the stand to examine the bottom.

 

As soon as the upside was more downside than most,

A small rolled up paper fluttered out from the post:

 

“I’m happy you own me, the pleasure’s all mine.

That punk would’ve stripped me and sold me for wine.”

 

“Now we can share them, those days on the road.

Losing all count of the friendships we sowed.”

 

“You see, I’m attracted to people like you;

People who dream of a journey or two.”      

          A.H.H.

 

I’m sure when I’m older, my legs tired of turning,

I’ll think of this day; of the joy and the yearning.

 

I’ll pass it along to a like-minded good soul;

dusty and weathered, but ready to roll.

 

The bike will live on, with new stories to tell;

new owner, new road, and the faint ping of a bell.

[Christopher Murray]

I think it is technically theft but the person’s intentions matter here AND would matter a great deal to the police and/or judge. How many times has someone posted on this list that they bought a Rivendell because they suspected it was stolen? There was one only a few weeks ago. Purchasing stolen goods is a crime. No one ever says that in those posts and in fact there is an abundance of praise heaped on the person.

I say this guy deserves the benefit of the doubt. Even if he is wrong, I’d have a hard time being too mad at him If it was my bike.

Chris

[sameness]

Marty, that was a truly excellent read. I really, really liked it. Thank you!

Jeff Hagedorn

Los Angeles, CA USA

[MartyG]

Like most cities, Portland has a policy:

If you know of a bicycle that has been left in the public right-of-way for more than 72 hours, please call (503) 823-9863 or use the online form to report it as abandoned.

Please email sarah....@portlandoregon.govwith the specific location of the bike, a description of the bike, whether it's moved in the past 72 hours, and what it's locked to (street sign, bike rack, etc.). 

[Eric Norris]

I agree with the idea to post a notice where the bike was letting the owner know how to contact you. If they were somehow unable to get to their bike for a few weeks (maybe in a coma?) and then went back to retrieve it, there should be some way for them to find it.

--Eric N
Twitter/Instagram/YouTube: @CampyOnlyGuy

[Ruben Flores]

This reminds me of a funny story from about 15 years ago. A friend of mine was a researcher at UCLA. She lived in a large apartment building near the campus. At some point she noticed a nicer than campus bike locked on a stair handrail. Sat there for months (or so she thought). One day a note appeared 'going to paint building, need to move bike' with a deadline a couple of weeks away. The bike didn't move, she called her boyfriend at the time who came over with a torch and cut the locks. Customized the bike and my friend was using it as a campus cruiser.

A few weeks go by, the building painting was completed and one day she goes out to "her" bike and it is gone and back where it was originally. It was there unlocked and thinks maybe her friends are playing a joke, rides the bike and locks it back by her apartment.

When she comes out the next morning there is a nasty note on the bike to leave it alone or else..............

I am just saying, she never remember it moving but I guess maybe it did.

Ruben in So Cal

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:21:40 AM UTC-8, John A. Bennett wrote:

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Bill, I'm sure you'd return the money if you knew that it came from someone who lost everything:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/22/world/la-fg-japan-returned-money-20110923

This reminds me of the scores of unlocked bikes I saw in Tokyo--even the locked bikes I remember were not locked to anything.  They might have a cable lock through the frame and front tire, but not secured. 

Toshi

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[Evan E.]

About five years ago I occasionally walked past an orange Sam Hillborne that had been locked up in one place, outdoors, for so long that the components were all rusted and the spokes were a tangle of spider webs. I stopped by my local police station and asked an officer if the owner could be notified. Or, failing that, was there a specific point at which a locked bike could be considered abandoned? The officer said no. And he added that no matter how long that bike might sit, "it's someone else's property." Fair enough. I stopped wondering about the bike. Then a few months later, I walked past Sam's parking place and the bike was gone. I never knew if a thief took it or the owner came back to claim it.

Evan Elliot

San Francisco

[Mark in Beacon]

John  mentions a u-lock being cut, but the ad as currently missing does not contain this info. I assume either the cl poster changed the copy to appear less incriminating or John made a logical assumption, since it is doubtful the bike would last more than a few hours in one spot  unlocked. So kind of easy to determine if this was theft. Just imagine a police officer had observed this person "saving" this bicycle.

Officer: Freeze! Drop the bolt cutters and back away from the bike slowly. You're under arrest,.
Good Samaritan: Huh? For what?
Officer: Bike theft, wise guy.
GS: Oh. (Chuckles lightly).  Right. No, it's not how it looks. See, the bike has been parked here  for a couple of weeks now. I was becoming concerned that it might get  stolen or stripped of parts, so I'm taking it  to post on craigslist, to keep it safe and remind the owner they forgot to pick up their bicycle.
Officer: Right, pal. And when kids lose a tooth you go around putting quarters under their pillows and that's not breaking and entering.

The CL poster claims he observed the bike in the same spot for several weeks. Obviously during. that time it would not have been difficult for him to look up the correct procedure for this situation. After something like this gets reported to the city hotline, I imagine the police or public works  dept. at some point will cut the lock and take possession of the bicycle. By taking it upon himself to remove it, the cl guy puts the bike in his control. If he reunites the bike with its rightful owner, he's a hero. If nobody claims it, he is the proud new owner of a Rivendell. Whether he is willing to admit it or not, I detect larceny in his heart.

[Mark in Beacon]

Ditto, Marty. Awesome. And eerily spot on.

Really what the guy should have done is alerted the hotline, then maybe posted on cl that he had done so (mentioning bike description details but not its location).

[Doug H.]

Mark in Beacon, I had those exact thoughts. What better cover than to say...I tried to find the owner, publicly. Oh well, I'll have to put this Riv to good use.

Doug

[Grant @ Rivendell]

Bravo!

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 2:47:50 PM UTC-8, MartyG wrote:

[Justin, Oakland]

Bill-
I approve of your Ska-inclusiveness but disapprove of your ska-analogy.

See you in the pit,
Justin

[Bill Lindsay]

Justin approves and disapproves, as is his right.  I think this guy in PDX sounds like a guardian angel, and I hope deep in my soul that this story has a happy ending and turns out to be victimless.  If something of mine got stolen I'd rather it be safe and warm in a nice guys house where I "might" find it, rather than abandoned locked on a pole for weeks.  

That said, I'm not comfortable with the notion of individuals in a civilized society deciding arbitrarily when it is OK for them to take property that isn't theirs without consent.  The innocence of our Craigslist angel is established completely by us believing his story about his intent.  It's just a variant of the "I was just borrowing it" defense.  That defense is valid if we believe it, and is invalid if we don't.  

I don't have an answer, or a conclusion.  I even asked my lawyer friends about it.  They all (well 2 of 2) think the Craigslist angel should be charged with a crime.  

BL in EC

[Justin August]

I skapprove if Bill’s armchair lawyer assessment and of his lawyer friend’s assessment. My car once got a sticker and boot on it because it was parked across the street from my apartment for over 72 hours. That neighbor was a particularly picky person who felt they “owned” the space and used the letter of the law to violate the spirit of it by reporting a car “left in a single location for longer than 72 hours.”

There are many ways to address the issue of a bike you think may have been left that happen before you cut someone’s lock, many of which have been outlined here.

-Justin, skanking in the pit/pediatric wing of KP

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[Kieran J]

As others have mentioned, what I get hung up on is, what will the CL dude do if/when nobody comes forward for the bike? Does he have an ultimate plan on that? Will he eventually assume nobody is coming back for it and relinquish it to the police as a 'found item'? Or will he keep it indefinitely? How much time will have to pass before it's time to act on that decision?

There are many reasons why the original owner of the bike may never connect with the CL dude - travel, health issues, lack of internet-search competency, etc. - but that doesn't mean they aren't out looking for it. Or maybe they are sitting at home dismayed because their bike has disappeared and they assume it's stolen and gone for good.

The guy commandeered someone else's property, without their consent, for "their own good". Best intentions aside, that doesn't sit right with me.

KJ

[Evan E.]

Yep! At what point does a "the owner didn't claim it" bike become "my bike"?  When I saw that Sam in San Francisco, locked up outdoors for months on end, I twice placed an ad on Craigslist asking the owner that if she or he no longer wanted that Sam Hillborne parked somewhere in the city, I'd be interested in buying it. No reply. Not that I expected one. But I was sincerely trying to get that bike back indoors -- and preferably reunited with the owner who locked it up.

[Eric]

#1 - It's not a "tough" situation.

#2 - The right thing to do is handle your business.

#3 - Only in Portland.

#4 - It's totally theft of lost/mislaid property & criminal damage (for lock).

And on a serious note, I'd be okay with this if it was Riv custom, an Atlantis, AHH, or Hunq. But for a Sam Hillborn? Put it out of it's misery!

[nash...@gmail.com]

I'm going to say that if that were my bike and "something bad happened" to me I would NOT want a stranger to cut my lock and put it in their garage and try to look for me.

Even if "something bad" happens to me I will know where I left my bike and will return for it or send someone for it.

Or even if I don't, I wouldn't feel better about someone with good intentions taking it. Dont mess with other peoples things. That is my personal outlook.

Just because one person perceives their actions to be good intentioned and thinks that they are part of some sort of community does not mean that the other party sees things the same or even knows that said community exists. The more I read this thread the ridiculous I find this line of reasoning.

[Mark in Beacon]

Bill Lindsay wrote: The innocence of our Craigslist angel is established completely by us believing his story about his intent.  It's just a variant of the "I was just borrowing it" defense.  That defense is valid if we believe it, and is invalid if we don't.  

In this case I would argue it matters not at all whether the guy has good intentions; that is not a legitimate defense. Even if we may sympathize with his motive, it does not make his actions valid or him innocent of breaking the law. It's just vigilantism, plain and simple. Private citizens can't go making this kind of decision, because, chaos, eventually. 

Also, apologies to Jon, I did not see his script. Great minds, etc.

Here is the form Marty was referencing. You can find it easily by googling Portland abandoned bicycle. https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/73379

[Justin August]

As in the rest of life - intentions don’t matter, impact does. The impact is that someone has now definitely had their bike stolen.

-J

[Christopher Murray]

I’ll agree with all of this on the condition that we all agree that purchasing a bike you think is stolen to try and return it to the rightful owner is also a crime, raises as many or more ethical issues, and should no longer be praised. Intentions don’t matter, right? Purchasing stolen property is a crime. This happens a few times a year on this list and I have NEVER heard anyone condemn the purchaser.

For example:
https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/rbw-owners-bunch/Stolen/rbw-owners-bunch/kE4C2hvv-xY

I say we give the guy a break. No one knows all the circumstances and we are in a poor position to act as judge and jury.

Chris

[Christopher Murray]

Link above doesn’t work. This should:

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/kE4C2hvv-xY

Chris

[Bill Schairer]

I read a thread on crazyguyonabike not long ago by a couple whose tandem was stolen in New Orleans (I think) while they were eating lunch on their cross country tour. The bike was rather immediately purchased by a good samaritan, knowing it was stolen, for a song. Amazingly, he found the true owner’s name and phone number stuffed in the handlebars or seatpost (something like that) and was able to reunite the bike with the owner and they were able to complete their tour relatively uninterupted if I remember correctly. I keep thinking I need to stash my name and number in my bikes in several places but I’ve never got around to it.

That aside, I guess I do see a difference in the two actions even if technically there is no difference. No way, no how is that tandem getting back to the owner unless a good samaritan takes that action. No way, no how is the bike in Portland getting back to its rightful owner BECAUSE of the “good samaritan’s” action. If I’m the owner of the tandem, I’m thanking the guy who purchased my tandem. If I’m the owner of the bike in Portland, I’m wondering who the hell are you stealing my bike? Big difference in my mind even if both actions are legally wrong.

[John at Rivelo]

Hi, I'm the guy that posted this in the first place. 

I have exchanged emails with the Craiglist poster. I have a report from someone in the neighborhood who spoke with him in person. 

He has reposted the ad. He has asked me on more than one occasion if I've had any luck on my end tracking down the owner. (I haven't.)

Honestly, I feel kinda' bad now about even mentioning this, considering that I think the guy is on the up-and-up. Would I have done it 

exactly the same way? Maybe not. But in every exchange I've had with him, he comes across as 100% genuine. 

I tend to skew more toward the "motivation" end of things, both here and in life, in general. Nothing I've heard from the CL poster - or the guy

in the neighborhood who talked to him - leads me to think that his motivation is anything less than sincere. I don't believe he has any intention

of keeping the bike, or is living in hopes that the owner won't resurface. He appears to me to really want to find the rightful owner of the Hillborne.

John in Portland at Rivelo

[Mark in Beacon]

But spreading the word is the whole point. It just so happens that apparently the RBW Owners Bunch is chock full of internet litigators. 

Sure, life is full of gray areas. Operating on the motivational principle, if you catch some kid stealing sunglasses from your store, and he tells you he is going to pawn it so he can have money to eat, maybe you give him a lecture and let him go. Or maybe he smirks and kicks you in the shin and you decide to call the police. Either way,  as the property owner, it's your call. This situation is different--not his property, and already there is a procedure in place to handle this exact event.

I would tend to trust your judgment regarding this cl guy and the Riv bike, and think there is no reason to doubt the guy is sincere and on the up and up. But do you really want people running around Portland rescuing abandoned bicycles? I don't think the guy should be arrested, but he should probably be advised to get the bike to the police or the agency responsible for abandoned bikes asap.

[Justin August]

This episode also furthers the need to register your bikes with BikeIndex.org

I hope the bike gets home and I hope that all is resolved without hard feelings or martial intervention.
-J

--

[Dane "Finders Keepers" Larson]

Hi, 

That's me on the left up there.

I'm the person who cut this bike off of the rack, call me vigilante, Robin Hood, et al. I suppose enough has been said and judgement can be and has been dished, but it's my turn (and may you all learn how long-winded I can be).

First, my original email to Rivbike.com:

Hello! I know I'm on sketchy legal ground, but I cut the bike lock off of a Sam Hillborne today and took it home. My reasoning:
-It had been parked for a minimum of two weeks since I'd made note of it. A week ago I marked it's tires in chalk and it hasn't moved since, as it hadn't before.
-The neighborhood is known for car break-ins and bike theft/stripping.
-It's been raining roughly non-stop here for the last week and a half.
-The Brooks saddle hasn't been covered the entirety of it being parked/abandoned out there.
 
So I assumed it was a) stolen and sitting there waiting for pickup, b) the owner had gotten wasted at a local bar, forgotten where it was, went home, and never thought to find it, c) the owner got wasted and somehow died or was incapacitated on their way home and is now in a coma, unable to acknowledge the missingness of their bike, d) the owner is on vacation and thought leaving it in that condition for an extended amount of time on the street was reasonable, or e) the owner (presumably a local, though I haven't seen this bike before this past such and such time and I notice these things aka Rivendells) doesn't have access to a porch, yard, shed, garage, basement, or some other normal form of secure-ish bike parking and thought they could leave it, an, to the trained eye, obviously valuable bike (esp. considering the handmade wheelset, Mark's rack, and non-stock componentry) on the street until Independence Day.
I could continue my treatise on why I essentially just stole a bike, but I think by now, and by the fact that I'm writing this email, you understand that it's a bike I respect and would love to return to it's owner if possible. Caveat: it's my size and I'd love to keep it if I can't find the owner after diligence is done.
My local Craigslist has been searched, stolen bike internet databases too, the local police forms are offline, and Portland is notorious for doing diddily squat about stolen bikes (someone came outside the restaurant they were dining in to film me and tell me they were contacting the authorities while I was angle-grinding the lock off in broad daylight. I told them my name and where I would be the rest of the day, bartending at the same restaurant they hailed from, and to please pass that along).
I have now posted on my local Craigslist's lost&found as well as the bike for sale page and left a note on the rack I ripped it off from.
By this point, you probably know I went through all that trouble to ask you a simple question.
Can you, by way of the serial number, get me in contact with this beautiful, well loved Sam Hillborne's owner? I ask for no reward nor ransom.
Thanks, 
Dane

And so today the bike was returned, with much welcome help from John at Rivelo, the kind souls tearing apart the stacks of invoices down in Walnut Creek, and I suppose a little from my friends, You Good Folks Out There. Thanks sharing your beautiful poem, MartyG, I hope we can all find more warmth in our hearts.

[Deacon Patrick]

Dear Dane,

Your neighborliness is a gift. Thank you for the blessing of your dogged compassion.

With abandon,
Patreick

[MartyG]

Love happy endings. And the faint ping of a bell...

[Paul Choi]

Dane, great job!

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:21:40 AM UTC-8, John A. Bennett wrote:

A Sam Hillborne was spotted in the same spot for weeks on end until someone finally cut the u-lock and posted this on Craigslist.

As of now, as far as I know, the Craigslist poster has not heard from the owner. 

Anyone out there?

https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/bik/d/found-rivendell-sam-hillborne/6474538877.html

All I know, 

John, in Portland (who isn't really in on the whole thing, just posting this here in the hopes it will raise owner) 

[Joe Bernard]

But wait! Why was it left there like that??

[Bill Lindsay]

So the guy on the right is the owner of the bike?  That's the happy ending I was hoping for.  

What was the backstory to how the bike ended up locked to a pole for at least two weeks?  Was it stolen and abandoned by the original thief?  

Regarding your explanation for why you took possession of the bike: It sounds like you knew exactly what you were doing and were willing to assume the risks, which is all anyone can expect, IMO

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Eric Floden]

Nicely done, and thanks

EricF

Ottawa

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[Tim]

Dane,

Good for you and good for the owner. I will only chastise you about one thing: You left us all hanging as to why the bike was there. Columbo never ended the show like that. Give up the 411!

[tc]

Dane, if any of my family bikes are stolen I’m calling you. And I live on the east coast :-)

Well done - great ending!

Tom

[Dane "Finders Keepers" Larson]

Sounds like it was taken from his backyard while he was inside taking a quick shower and lunch. I found it locked outside my work, near a coffee shop less than half a mile away that he said he frequents and he probably would have seen it if he had ever turned right out of the coffee shop instead of left.
I got an email from him this morning with photos of the bike and a copy of the invoice from Rivendell, met up with him an hour later, shared some laughs and weighty sighs of relief, and sent him on his way, though it would have been a better photo if his ass was in the saddle.

[Mark in Beacon]

Well, it certainly was the best possible outcome, and I'm happy the owner was reunited with his bicycle! But nobody here needs to learn how long-winded I can be...

First, of course, if the videographer had called the police and they happened to show while you were saving the bike, that would have ended the story right there. (Imagine if the original thief or prankster had lost his key and finally decided to come cut  the bike loose, and came up with a similar story.)

And what if something similar to one of your other scenarios were the case, and Tom had decided to leave his life here in the U.S. behind, and fly off to New Zealand with only his trusty Hunqapillar and whatever he could fit in his large saddle sack? If the bike were not claimed by a certain point, what was that point, and what were your plans for it? Turn it in to the police? Sell it and donate the proceeds to a charity of your choice?

Another issue. What if it had been my rusty old Fuji that appeared abandoned? A bike that might have represented more of my net wealth than someone's Rivendell did to theirs? That was even more important to my day to day activities. That was my only bike (ha ha) rather than part of a stable of fancies. You could make up the same scenarios for it being stuck there that were made for the Rivendell. Do you go to the same extraordinary measures to protect it from further harm? Certainly the accolades would not be the same in the Old Fujis world, but no doubt that wasn't any motivator anyway. When I worked at the AKC, I learned there was a rescue club for almost every breed. Maybe Dane could head up the RBW charter.

There were other ways to go about this, including doing everything Dane did except removing the bicycle. If there was concern about it disappearing in the meantime, how about throwing another lock on it? Sure, you might be charged with some kind of property vandalism, but better than theft, and relatively little chance of motive being misunderstood. Also, since by Dane's account the police and other authorities in Portland don't care about stolen bikes much, it could be the perfect opportunity to change that. I know nothing about Portland bike activism, but I know it is a hotbed for cycling. I am surprised to learn it still suffers from this problem, but no doubt plenty of local energy exists to correct it.

However, Dane, if you should, despite all of my great advice and insight from my high saddle height, still choose the route of vigilante justice for all wronged Rivendell owners, at least do it right. But remember two things: With great power, comes great responsibility. And two, every superhero needs an appropriate costume for their alias as they go about in public doing their derring deeds of rescue and restitution. I have taken the trouble to design one for you. (There is a small cape fabricated by Grudens that does not show in the mock up below. And the hatchet concealed in the saddle sack is designed to stun, not kill.)

[Mark in Beacon]

I suppose it comes down to the classic Does the end justify the means.

[Deacon Patrick]

Something I’ve not seen in this discussion yet, and the reason I waited to post to this thread until an outcome was known, is that the local knowledge (including the “feel” of something just being off) can allow one to take action as a close neighbor that in a different block would be foolish. It is entirely possible the actions of a good neighbor, because they know the info on the ground, can appear to be a vigilante, when in fact they are being neighborly. The proof here is 1) the bike was stolen; 2) lots of effort when itno reuniting the bike with the owner, at the expense of neighbor; 3) bike returned to the neighbor. Had the bike not been stolen, it would have still likely ended up with its owner — because of the care of the neighbor. I have benifited greatly from the care of neighbors and hope I’ve helped a few myself. This is the gift and wonder of subsidiarity in action — and why people helping people as directly as possible trumps (can I say that anymore without being political?) bureaucratic solutions.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Mark in Beacon]

I certainly get all that, and it makes a ton of sense when looked at in a certain light. I'm just pointing out that it can be a slippery slope. And I do think that laws against theft are more than just bureaucracy. And you can hear this same argument, same line of thinking applied in other cases of vigilante justice that are not quite as benign. I'm all for neighbors helping neighbors, but then, when it comes to actually working outside the legal system, who determines what's copacetic and what ain't? It doesn't have to be cold, slavish adherence to "bureaucracy" vs. altruistic, good samaritan neighbor. As when Dane ends his saga with "I hope we can all find more warmth in our hearts" it skews things a bit, implying that those who would do anything else are big old uptight play by the rules authoritarian meanies with no heart. I think it was possible to be concerned and neighborly about this situation without someone taking matters literally into their own hands. But really, I must go. I'm needed elsewhere to defend fenders and rim brakes from the infidels. And to look for a job.

[Deacon Patrick]

Without humble obedience to striving for Right Relationship with our neighbor (and who isn’t our neighbor?), everything is a slippery slope, including the arguement of slippery slope to justify walking past a possible neighbor in need. Sardonic grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Bob Lovejoy]

I have no real take on the issues discussed, though they are valid and to be considered, from both and all sides... 

But, BUT!  I find it incredible that one could miss their recently stolen 2TT, 62cm?, sage green, Rivendell Hillborne while walking anywhere close to it!  I know I sometimes miss the obvious but still... And for weeks?  Wow...

Bob Lovejoy

Galesburg, IL

[sameness]

No kidding! I perv on any bike within a six block radius. I can spot a rusty UJB with the makings of a low trail 650B conversion through three office buildings and a blind alley, to say nothing of my own bike.

Jeff Hagedorn

Los Angeles, CA USA

[Mark in Beacon]

I also find it weird that someone stole the bike, then locked it up, coincidentally within yards of the victim's favorite cafe, and then never came back to finish stealing it (that is the story, correct?) Maybe they got wasted and forgot where they put it? But why not just take it completely the first time?  Perhaps the original "thief" was also a good samaritan, and simply teaching Tom that, hey, neighbor, you should never leave your bike unlocked, even when just popping in to your own house for a quick shower and a bite to eat--cause see, look how easy it is to steal it, if I wanted to. Sounds more like a really stupid "prank" or some kind of payback than a theft. But who knows. We keep getting more facts added to the story as we go. I see a Law and Order episode...

[Philip Williamson]

Isn't "slippery slope" the name of a logical fallacy? 

Dane assessed the situation, took action, and turned out to be correct. Well done, him.

I suspect the "warmth in our hearts" sentiment was a kinder form of "I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!"*

Philip

Santa Rosa, CA

*NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! 

[Deacon Patrick]

Do your own research, but the Spanish inquisition may not be what most people have been taught. At the risk of pointing out “fake history,” (jwhich as a Catholic I very much wish to point out) the Spanish Inquisition isn’t what most people think. So “No one expects the Spanish Inquisition” is a fine sentement, but a gross omission of facts in history (namely that the Catholic inquisitors treatment of suspected Protistants was less severe in quantity and quality than Protestant equivilants’ treatment of Catholics across the globe, including Spain. (Even the Wikipedia article aludes to this possibility).

With abandon,
Patrick

[Philip Williamson]

Aren't you the guy who took umbrage at being told the term "ghetto tubeless" could offend people? 

I'll reign in the Monty Python "Spanish Inquisition" references in future, out of deference to my Catholic friends. I reserve a future "CAKE OR DEATH" reference, though. as an homage to my crossdresser friends.  

Philip (atheist, thanks for asking)
Santa Rosa, CA

[Steve Palincsar]

Rein in a Monty Python reference because of alleged Catholic sensitivities?  I should hope not.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Justin August]

I can’t imagine anything more ludicrous.

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[Brian Campbell]

Churches (Catholic/Protestant and the rest) specialize in revisionist history. They have all been selling it for the 2000 years or so......

[Paul Choi]

Do not forget why we come to this board. Why do we need to tear down and attack members here?

 
On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:21:40 AM UTC-8, John A. Bennett wrote:

A Sam Hillborne was spotted in the same spot for weeks on end until someone finally cut the u-lock and posted this on Craigslist.

As of now, as far as I know, the Craigslist poster has not heard from the owner. 

Anyone out there?

https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/bik/d/found-rivendell-sam-hillborne/6474538877.html

All I know, 

John, in Portland (who isn't really in on the whole thing, just posting this here in the hopes it will raise owner) 

[Patrick Moore]

Why not? You would reign in references to racist or sexist terms, would you not? On what basis then do you include other offensive statements published on list?

Now, the Monty Python reference doesn't bother me, even though I am a practicing Orthodox Christian who was raised traditional Roman Catholic; even "Every sperm is sacred" doesn't bother me. But what does bother me is self-imposed value judges proclaiming onlist.

Either we let everything go, or we apply the same discretion to everyone. If Catholic sensitivities are to be neglected, then god damn it, let everyone's sensitivities be neglected.

That statement is just stupid; and stupidity, I guess, the one "value" I will wholeheartedly mock.

To avoid the furor over this, I think we ought to drop the whole subject.

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[Patrick Moore]

+1

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[Edwin W]

Close this thread now! Before all hell (haha) breaks out.

Edwin

[Joe Bernard]

Have fun storming the castle! 🏰

[Justin August]

Where does this leave Cinelli Pope handlebars?
What about the later copies with revisions? Are they Episcopal bars?
Are Jones bars more aptly named Mormon bars for their quintessentially American origin?
Are track drops on a Pistachio Buddhist bars? Or would that be chopped off drops into bullhorns - ridding yourself of all that is not necessary and embracing suffering?

So many deep questions.

-J

On Feb 7, 2018, 8:41 AM -0800, Edwin W <dween...@hotmail.com>, wrote:

Close this thread now! Before all hell (haha) breaks out.

Edwin

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[Patrick Moore]

You forgot the old Priest handlebar that Riv sold long ago. You've neglected your ecclesiastical history.

Patrick "Don Camillo was a roadie" Moore

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 9:54 AM, Justin August <justin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Where does this leave Cinelli Pope handlebars?
What about the later copies with revisions? Are they Episcopal bars?
Are Jones bars more aptly named Mormon bars for their quintessentially American origin?
Are track drops on a Pistachio Buddhist bars? Or would that be chopped off drops into bullhorns - ridding yourself of all that is not necessary and embracing suffering?

So many deep questions.

-J

On Feb 7, 2018, 8:41 AM -0800, Edwin W <dween...@hotmail.com>, wrote:

Close this thread now! Before all hell (haha) breaks out.

Edwin

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[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

Wait til Biggus *Hunqus hears of this!

*edited for Riv content

P.S. I choose CAKE

P.S.S. Couldn't resist, Ok, I'll stop

[Deacon Patrick]

Hey Philip,
— Yes, slippery slope is a logical falicy, as well as, done properly, a logical argument.
— Nae, I took no umbrage to “ghetto tubeless.”
— I had no idea an invitation to expand knowledge was a statement that I was offended and asking for anyone to reign in anything. I also recommend expanding ones knowledge by looking up what the Church’s original reason for sensoring Galeleo was (it became mutually messy and stupid after that, but never because the Church was anti-science) and just what the various Crusades were really about and why. Monty Python’s use of the cultural ignorance called the Spanish Inquisition is hilarious. I was pointing out the cultural ignorance and inviting people to learn about it for themselves.
— I love Monty Python! Brilliant, hillarious, equal opportunity insulters. “She’s not a witch! She’s a duck!”

Now, can we please get back to bringing out our dead of winter doldrums? Grin. “Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!” Let’s hope winter’s not dead yet though, we haven’t had enough here. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Let's get Monty Python back On Topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U01xasUtlvw

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[Ian A]

"Tea's ready"!