Hi & Questions...

[Philip Barrett]

New to this group, I actually currently own & ride a Grant Peterson bike already (Bridgestone MB-1) plus a CIOCC road bike but am interested in something more dual purpose. The area the bike will be used primarily is the West Coast of Scotland = narrow, rutted B & C-roads, fast A-Roads & graded dirt tracks with lots of rain & wind thrown in for good measure. I like to ride as "spirited" as my late-50s legs will allow, am most comfortable on the hoods & I may eventually do some minimalist bikepacking overnights.

From looking at the Rivendell range it would seem that the Sam Hillborne or Homer Hilsen would be a good fit, however the Riv folks also recommended the Appaloosa.

I'd love to hear some opinions on this from the folks that own them & thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

[Ed Carolipio]

Hi Phillip,

Welcome to the group. There was a long conversion on this topic a couple of years back and, based on what Sam owners say and your preferences, the Sam (most recent one with the cantis) would be optimal. The cantis give you the option to run wider tires (with or without lugs, with or without fenders) relative to the Homer while the Joe geo is better suited to an upright handlebar. (Folks do run Joes with a drop bar: just need a stubby stem.) If you're worried about the cargo carrying capability of the Sam vs the Joe, Sam owners universally say that's not a problem unless you decide to go on an extended bike tour. I've owned a Joe and currently have a Homer.

One caveat on the selection is sizing. Riv bike sizing has wide gaps which don't necessary line up on PBH across different models. As a guess, maybe that's why Riv suggested the Joe? I'd recommend spending a little time on the geometry charts between the Sam and Joe for your PBH, and if you can imagine how your riding position would be using a bike you already own.

Good luck,

--Ed C.

[Philip Barrett]

Thanks! 

[Roberta]

Hi, Philip.

Welcome.

I have a Joe A. in a 51 and an AHH in a 54.5 (barely fits me, but it does fit).  83 pbh.  I'm female, older, and slower rider than most.

I love them both.  I feel "faster" and more spirited on my AHH, than on my Joe A. (it's relative because when I track on Strava, I go the same 11mph - yeah, I know I'm not a speed demon.)  Our streets here are terrible here and if I were only going to be riding on these bad streets, on mountain trails and on gravel, I'd stick with my Joe A.  It feels good underneath me, but I'm not sure if it's because I have wider tires (47mm) or the frame or both.  I actually suspect both.  I ride around without having to worry about each pothole I hit.

For me, though, I mainly ride MUPs and for smoother, more spirited riding, I prefer my AHH with 42mm tires, no fenders.   I've taken my AHH on the same horrible roads (and boardwalks) as I do on my Joe A. and it does very well, although I prefer my Joe A on those and I do think it's because I can put wider tires on it with fenders. AHH cannot take as wide a tire with or without fenders.

So, would you prefer a Cadillac ride with spirit of the Joe A with wider tires, or a slightly more sporty car, ride with the AHH, and wide, but not as wide tires?  I think you can do more really bad (and good) roads on the Joe A, and I love my Joe A, but I feel more spirited on the AHH. (don't get me wrong, the Joe A is NOT a dead feeling bike; it's wonderful.)

I think the Sam H. is somewhere between the two, at least that's my impression.

BTW, I'm not a real "bikely" person, more of a layperson who likes getting out of the house for an hour or two to enjoy the ride.  Nothing technical, no S240s, no off-road riding so you have to take that into consideration with my observations.  Let me tell you one thing more:  Initially, I was going to buy a Sam H., spoke to this Grant guy at Riv HQ (quite a fella as I came to find out :) ) and he suggested the Joe A.   I went to the dealer, he also had the Joe A there.  One ride around the parking lot on it and I was thrilled to pay him more for that Joe A than all the money I'd ever spend on all my bikes combined in my lifetime.   I bought the AHH years later to have a bike at a second location and have been thrilled with it, also.

If you come to Philadelphia and are about my height, you're welcome to try both, although I expect you won't want to travel that far to ride bikes.  Also, I joined the RBW board about 4 years ago, and bought my Joe A about 3 1/2 years ago, in April 2017.  The great folks on this board were instrumental with helping me navigate Riv.  The Joe A has made me so happy!    Do a search for my name in that time frame and you'll be able to read a bunch.  Problem is, it's a hard choice.  The good news is they are both great bikes.  I think I also wrote something up about a year ago with a "review" of my AHH.

Roberta

[Roberta]

Ed makes a great point about sizing.  For me, at 83 seems to be the high end for most of  Riv's bike sizing, including the Sam H. I was originally planning on purchasing.  I think the Joe A fit better than the Sam (and 83 was at it's midpoint recommendation)  and I've come to find that I prefer to be mid to high end of their sizing chart for their bikes.  I ride upright bars, as high as they can go--Chocomoose on Joe A, Albas on AHH.  I can post pictures tonight if you'd like.

Roberta

[Patrick Moore]

I can't give you much help in answering your question -- my Rivendells have all been road bikes -- but I can say welcome to the group, and, please post more photos (and descriptions) of your Scottish riding environment. I myself live in the high-desert US Southwest, at the polar opposite, aesthetically and geographically, from your area, but my distant Celtic roots (Scots Irish on father's paternal side) feel a wave of nostalgia from such pictures as this one you posted.

On Wednesday, December 9, 2020 at 11:52:31 PM UTC-8 philipr...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> New to this group, I actually currently own & ride a Grant Peterson bike already (Bridgestone MB-1) plus a CIOCC road bike but am interested in something more dual purpose. The area the bike will be used primarily is the West Coast of Scotland = narrow, rutted B & C-roads, fast A-Roads & graded dirt tracks with lots of rain & wind thrown in for good measure. I like to ride as "spirited" as my late-50s legs will allow, am most comfortable on the hoods & I may eventually do some minimalist bikepacking overnights.
>
> From looking at the Rivendell range it would seem that the Sam Hillborne or Homer Hilsen would be a good fit, however the Riv folks also recommended the Appaloosa.
>
> I'd love to hear some opinions on this from the folks that own them & thanks in advance for any advice you can give. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Philip Barrett]

Actually I've ridden Big Bend & across the border into Baja & Nuevo Leon many times! Mostly on dirt motorcycles but also some MTB stuff, I love the desert too. I live full time on Dallas (my job is US based) & we're commuting back & forward (well pre-COVID that was the plan at least) as we build a house on Skye. Provided you can stand wind & rain, there's tremendous riding in the Highlands & Islands all within easy reach, the roads get busy with RVs & buses in the summer but the rest of the time it's you & the wee ewes. Look on YouTube for cycling the Northwest 500, the Hebridean Way (a short ferry ride from us) or the West Highland Way, guarantee you'll be packing your bags!

Since my goal is to ride to the trails, then ride the actual trails I'm actually starting to think that I may need something a little more off-road focused than the Rivendell's though? The Kona Sutra ULTD looks like an interesting candidate with relaxed geometry & good 'ol steel bones. Of course, nothing like the exquisite build or the great story of the Rivs...

[Roberta]

I think the Joe A, but not the Homer, would be the better bike for the hard riding you'd like to do. It's a very rugged bike.   You might also want to look at Riv's new hilly bikes (I don't know anything about them). or even the Clem H.

[Philip Williamson]

Hi Philip, that Scottish bike life sounds ideal. I rode a rented mountain bike in the forest preserve near Loch Ard twenty-some years ago. Beautiful, steep, and sloppy riding, and I saw a team of horses pulling felled trees out of the forest!

I checked out that Kona, it’s pretty awesome. Fat tires and drop bars is where it’s at for me. I’m not a fan of the cables under the down tube, since they pick up gunk and trash, but if the bike is fenderable, that’s less of an issue. The dropper post is a nice thing to have, for sure. 

You might consider converting your MB-1 to fat light slick tires like the Rene Herse Rat Trap Pass (“RTP” for short) and drop bars like the On-One Midge. That would be a pretty fun bike for the riding you describe.

Philip

Santa Rosa, CA

[ascpgh]

Phillip, welcome to the group. I love to hear and see what others ride in their locations, you've certainly got a new perspective for us from Scotland. The climate well responsible for my trusty Hilltrek anorak, my grail late fall, winter and early spring shell. Your work and locations remind me of an old movie, Local Hero, starring Peter Riegert, Burt Lancaster and a Mark Knopfler soundtrack.

Your mention of the Kona Sutra ULTD makes a nice point which is that a drop bar bike can really go deeper into the woods and wilds than imagined. A short stem is a part of it as long as the rest of the geometry and fit allows that bar position to be natural. Riding on the hoods if fit such as that bears a very similar arm position benefit to riding a flat bar with bar end grips. Back in the day my MTB trail riding and climbing in the Ozarks was improved by the 90° outward rotation of my gripping hands using those. Hoods on drop bars produce that relaxes my arm muscles (from pronation toward supination), reducing the angle of my elbow (flexion) and madeit easier to get back over the rear wheel. 

I was always an underbiker, riding my RB-1 on fire roads and smooth paths, my XO-2 on the trails and my Rivendell Rambouillet across the country.The old skills remain in muscle memory and I continue to ride bikes a bit beyond their market segment intention!

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 12:30:37 PM UTC-5 philipr...@gmail.com wrote:

[Philip Barrett]

Thanks all, I'm certainly very comfortable on a drop bar bike albeit I spend about 90% of the time on the hoods. Many years & pounds ago I used to indulge in a little road racing & currently both my bikes are really set up too low (pure road machine is a CIOCC) for my aging body and part of this build will be to get everything more on the level as it were. Grant's "Just Ride" has been very helpful in this.

I've been guilty too of ignoring market segments, no one told me at 12 years old that I couldn't ride my hand me down, "girl's frame" bike in the dirt & when the forks collapsed I took the legs from an old lawn lounger, beat the ends flat & drilled & clamped them to the axle & stem! Point being, that the industry has done a great job of convincing people that it's well nigh impossible to ride X terrain if you don't have Y gear. Once again, Grant & I see eye to eye on this one, hence my reason for being here. The way I see it, some people buy equipment to ride & some people ride so they can buy equipment! Both are perfectly OK but it seems like most here are of the former group.

[Nathan Mattia]

Greetings, Phillip!

Your lone picture turns me green with envy.  I soooo want to visit my Mother Land on my Mother’s side, and hopefully ride there too.

I would have to agree with Ed and say that a Sam Hillborne is just the thing.  I have a 51cm with 650b Fatty Rumpkin tires and it’s a fantastic ride.

Here’s a build post about my Samwise Hillborne from my blog

If you want footage of someone taking a Sam on rougher terrain, check out these vids from PathLessPedaled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUo74yqz6w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii0I6PY0cvo

And this one’s even about what bars make more sense on the Sam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-yyNxJcF5M

Cheers, and I sincerely hope to see you on the trails one day!

[greenteadrinkers]

Welcome, Phillip!

I can't speak to a Joe or AHH, I'm sure both would be great choices, but for me, the Sam has been a blast to ride on just about everything except hiking trails. A big difference between the Sam and the AHH is canti-posts. Maybe explore the various Rivendell builds at Radavist.com, plenty of excellent examples.

Scott

[Ryan M.]

I've owned a Sam Hillborne; it was a canti post orange one size 48. It fit me well and I really liked riding it on the road and some minimal gravel. I was really road riding a lot when I owned the Sam so I never did try it "off road" but I would imagine it would do very well. I never bike packed with it but would take enough stuff on the bike for an afternoon picnic often. It handled pretty well but it had this weird feeling when climbing steep hills, the front would feel like it would wander. That's the only real negative thing I can say about that bike.  I stuck with nitto noodle bars the entire time I had the Hillborne and those seemed to work well with that bike.  It was my first Rivendell and wound up selling it for a Roadeo, then I sold that and went for an Atlantis, now I have a Joe Appaloosa. (also a Frank Sr. single speed).

I really like the Joe A. It fits my style of biking now and handles beautifully. It's a very comfortable bike and does great on gravel roads and busted up jeep trails. It isn't bad on the road either, but I don't ride on the road all that much anymore so it isn't my focus. I have been through a few Hbars on it and have settled on a set of albatross bars for now. I do not feel like the Joe is sluggish or too out of place riding spirited and in fact I think the comfort of the bike helps with speed. Maybe it is the really long chainstays or the long top tube, but the bike rides with the comfort of a stretched town car but still responds to rider input well. I'm not sure how well the Joe would handle drop bars since the reach seems so long, but it certainly is a heck of a bike with "alt bars." IMHO, if you are married to the idea of using drops, the Sam may be the better buy. 

[Joel S]

I’ve owned many Rivendells over the years, before the longer wheelbase models.  I tried one with the longer chainstays and it was not for me.  I quickly sold it and got a Sam, fitted with 48mm tires.  This is a great bike for me, different enough from the Bleriot that I still own.  Just my preference, I like the Rivendells with the more traditional shorter chainstays.  I do love the clearance for 48mm (no fenders) on the Sam.  

[Jason Fuller]

Not that you need another vote for Sam at this point, but I'll give one anyway.  I think you'd find the Appaloosa to be too sluggish for your riding style, but the Hillborne totally suits a spirited riding style while being plenty capable for your camping plans. 

[Ashwath Akirekadu]

Hi Philip,

Welcome to the bunch!  I have previously owned Atlantis (50cm) and Appaloosas (46 and 51).  Have ridden friend's 51cm Hillborne a few times.  Currently own a Roadini and a Susie.

Appaloosa would be more versatile than Sam.   Both are real fun bikes.  If want to turn the knob slightly toward roadish, Sam would fit the bill.  Appa is more gravel kind, also behaves relatively better for loaded rides.  If you want to turn the knob even more to the right, Susie/Wolbis is an excellent experience.  With Susie you give up some speed, but in return you get more comfort, stability and utility.

See you around,

Ash

[greenteadrinkers]

Aside from a Sam, just to throw a curveball... I'd also consider a Crust Bombora.

[Matthew Williams]

Welcome to the group, Philip!

Before I got my Appaloosa, I rode a 1985 Stumpjumper. The Stumpjumper was the modern, big-boy version of my old Schwinn and rode like a sports car--it was wonderfully responsive and nimble, and was perfect for someone with a spirited style of riding, but as I got older I realized my riding style had changed.

When I began researching bikes, I test-drove the Atlantis, the A. Homer Hilsen, the Sam Hillborne, and the Appaloosa. The AHH and the Sam had a light "road-and-town" country feel, while the Appaloosa and Atlantis felt like heavier cruiser/touring bikes. I bought an Atlantis frame for a build, but then I found a complete ride-ready Appaloosa so I sold the Stumpjumper and the Atlantis.

I didn't fully appreciate the Appaloosa's design until I rode it immediately after riding the Stumpjumper--of the two, I much prefer the Appaloosa's cruiser-like ride to the Stumpjumper's dirt-bike quickness. The Appaloosa's ride is perfect for my nearly-upright style of running errands, and long-distance rides on roads and dirt. I'm also tall, with long legs, so the Appaloosa's longer wheelbase and lower center of gravity are welcome upgrades from the sporty bikes I rode in my younger days.

Ultimately I think you'll be happy with the Appaloosa, AHH, Sam, or Atlantis for the rides you're describing. Please keep us posted, and send photos--the west coast of Scotland sounds like a fantastic trip!

<Screen Shot 2020-12-03 at 8.03.40 AM.png>

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[Philip Barrett]

Still chewing on this cud! When I spoke to Riv they recommended the Appaloosa too, however isn't that more touring orientated (per Riv's own website)? Forgive the stock photos but these are the actual trails I will be riding in addition to the A roads thru farm tracks. 

[Nathan Mattia]

Ok, with those trails the Joe might do you better than the Sam. 

You’ll just have to figure out the best stem combo for your drops. 

-Nathan Mattia

“I saw a tiger. Now I understand. I saw a tiger and the tiger saw a man.”

On Dec 26, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Philip Barrett <philipr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Still chewing on this cud! When I spoke to Riv they recommended the Appaloosa too, however isn't that more touring orientated (per Riv's own website)? Forgive the stock photos but these are the actual trails I will be riding in addition to the A roads thru farm tracks. 

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<5-of-the-Best-Wild-Mountain-Bike-Rides-in-Scotland-1.jpg>

[Philip Barrett]

But to quote their own website  "Appaloosa - Road touring bike with long, stable geometry"

[Nathan Mattia]

Yeah, but Grant would tell you something like “ a skilled rider on a Sam could handle the trails“ you showed.  The frames are stout enough, and the Joe definitely is. 

It’s all about big enough tires and enough stopping power and you can do that with the Joe. 

It’s “touring” like how the 1983 Specialized Expedition is basically a mountain bike frame (just some different geometry specs) , but was built with smaller tire clearances so I can’t take it off road. The difference is, with the Joe, the clearances are such that you can. They’re just not super-huge like with the Gus. 

It’s only “road touring” as they try to define differences between that and their “hillibikes”. 

-Nathan Mattia

“I saw a tiger. Now I understand. I saw a tiger and the tiger saw a man.”

On Dec 26, 2020, at 9:52 AM, Philip Barrett <philipr...@gmail.com> wrote:

But to quote their own website  "Appaloosa - Road touring bike with long, stable geometry"

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[Ryan M.]

The Appaloosa is a bike that is capable of more tire width than the Sam. Between the two and after seeing those pics, you'd be better off with an Appaloosa than the Sam. I mean, sure...you could ride them on a Sam, but would it be fun?  You just have to ask yourself that. 

"Rivendell SAM HILLBORNE

FOR ALL ROADS— paved, dirt, or gravel; and the kinds of fire trails a Conestoga wagon could negotiate, but not the kind that would require a jackass. If you're skilled and have good judgement and fattish knobby tires, you can ride the SAM where you shouldn't. Stick with what it's designed for: all the above, and ROAD TOURING, ROAD SHOPPING, and ROAD COMMUTING.

The Sam is a versatile road and light trail bike." 

That's part of the description for the Sam on rivbike.com and I would say it is pretty accurate. 

"Clearance for 54mm tires. Mine have about 43mm tires on them, and I’ve ridden it this way on the second rockiest road on Mt. Tamalpais, and down Repack, too. If you don’t have any of our bikes and you kind of want to get one, the Appaloosa is as good a choice as any. I’d put 50mm tires on it, some kind of roadish or combo tread."

That's part of the Appaloosa description. 

The Appaloosa has more tire clearance; on my size 51 with 650b wheels/cliffhanger rims, I can get a Schwalbe G-one in 60mm on the bike. It doesn't have much mud clearance with those tires but it will fit. I bet the most you can realistically use on the Sam is a 48mm tire...unless the clearances have changed since I had mine. I rode my Sam with 38mm Pari Motos and the bike rode great, but it would be a chore to ride it over rocky stuff like that second picture. 

I sometimes take a cyclocross bike out and ride really busted up jeep trails. It's fun and an adventure, but I'm definitely underbiked for such terrain on the bike. It wasn't a ride I did terribly often with the cyclocross bike because at the end of it I was pretty sore. Way more comfortable riding that route on my Trek Fuel or my Niner Sir9.

A solid selling point for Rivendell bikes is the amazing versatility of the bikes. You do not have to pigeonhole a Sam into a "light trail bike" if you don't want to and the same goes for the Appalooosa. 

good luck with the decision...

Ryan 

- and I realize I misspelled Appaloosa up there...not even gonna change it. ; )

[Lester Lammers]

I see that James at Analog Cycles, a Riv dealer, also has Kona bikes. Given the images above, I'd email him before you decide. My 2 cents.

https://analogcycles.com/ 

[James Warren]

Philip,

If you don’t need tires bigger than 700x48, the Sam Hillborne can do anything and feels fastest of the Rivs I ride (Ram, Atlantis, Hunqapillar, Quickbeam.)

In theory, the Ram should feel fastest and maybe is, but my comfort with Albatross handlebar and the bigger tires for the mixed terrains has me happier for longer on the Hillborne. I might psychologically covert that to “feeling faster” over the long haul.

Hillbornes are amazing. But the question of tire size limitation is key.

-Jimmy

On Dec 26, 2020, at 10:32 AM, Lester Lammers <lester....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Justin]

Tire size limitation is really what it comes down to I figure. I didn't see where you'd mentioned the size bike you ride so not sure if you'd be 650b or 700cc on the bikes mentioned, apologies if I've just missed it. I've had both the Sam and the Appaloosa, and rode them together for about a year before I sold the Sam primarily because of tire size limitations. Not that there's anything wrong with the Sam's max of 700x48 (I did squeeze some 700x50 Gravel King SK in there with just a faint hint of rub when cornering) but with my riding opportunities, road riding only happens when commuting or to get to and from trails, never for getting out on the pavement and seeing how far and fast I can go. So the bigger the tire the better IMHO and there was just too much crossover between the two bikes to keep both when I found myself riding the Appaloosa more just because I like the bigger tires. 700x2.25 currently.

I ride the Appaloosa on MTB trails quite often when I don't feel like taking my hardtail. I was watching some youtube vids a couple weeks ago of people riding the West Highland Way route and wondered if I'd take the Appaloosa or the hard tail on that route. I'm still undecided but I can say if was going to be wet and muddy I'd always go with the disc braked hard tail for wet stopping efficiency and the extra tire clearance. When the mud gets caked up in the brakes, stays and forks that little tire clearance on the Rivendell will diminish quickly especially with rim brakes. Whoah everybody, take it easy. I love rim brakes too, more even, but that doesn't change the truth. I made the mistake a couple weeks of not considering the possible mud on the trail and rubbed paint down to metal at the brakes on all 6 stays and fork blades. I was also pushing the limits by running 2.25 tires so YMMV.

Hope that helps a little

[Philip Barrett]

It's Scotland. Guaranteed to be wet & muddy.

My PBH is a lofty 82cm so I'd be in a 51 methinks?

And thanks again for all the input here folks.

[Joel Stern]

Mu PBH is a tad over 80.5 and a 51 is fine, but I am at the low end of the range, any less PBH and I would be on the 48.   At 83 PBH I think a 51 would be perfect.  

My Sam is a 51 and it is fitted with 48mm tires, no fenders. 

I prefer the shorter chainstays but everyone of us will have our own bias.  

Good luck, beautiful country, riding must be a blast.  

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[Joe Shoemaker Music]

I’ve got an Appaloosa with 2.25” tires, and I take it on plenty of singletrack, gravel, rocky, muddy, trails with no problem at all. It’s a blast to ride, and feels quick enough on the road. When I talked to riv about where I wanted to ride, they voted the Appaloosa over the Sam. It’s a bit sturdier feeling.

On Wednesday, December 9, 2020 at 11:52:31 PM UTC-8 philipr...@gmail.com wrote:

New to this group, I actually currently own & ride a Grant Peterson bike already (Bridgestone MB-1) plus a CIOCC road bike but am interested in something more dual purpose. The area the bike will be used primarily is the West Coast of Scotland = narrow, rutted B & C-roads, fast A-Roads & graded dirt tracks with lots of rain & wind thrown in for good measure. I like to ride as "spirited" as my late-50s legs will allow, am most comfortable on the hoods & I may eventually do some minimalist bikepacking overnights.

From looking at the Rivendell range it would seem that the Sam Hillborne or Homer Hilsen would be a good fit, however the Riv folks also recommended the Appaloosa.

I'd love to hear some opinions on this from the folks that own them & thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

[Ey up!]

Hi Philip, I'm Steve, I'm 60 and I'm in Edinburgh. Possibly too late to help you out but here are some pics from my trip this Summer (2021) which was an edit of the Badger Divide and home to Edinburgh.

Aviemore to Laggan, over to Courrour Station, then overland to Loch Rannoch and home via Killin and Callendar on cycle paths all the way.

51cm A. Homer is an absolute ripper of a bike! Down hills on large gravel were grin factor 10! 

Details: 650b WTB Resolutes 44c on Cliffhanger x XT wheel set that I built, coped with everything- extended down-hills on large gravel were grin factor 10! Nitto (heat treated) B812 bar with ODI BMX grips was really comfy. Brooks Cambium C17, Flat MTB Pedals

165 Spa Cycles 46-30 crankset, SLX 11-34 Cassette...some hike-a-bike was done!

Atlantis or Joe would absolutely cope- nae bother.

Sam Hillbourne for better braking but Homer is so quick on the paths and roads home...Only thing, headset was a little loose after 4 days but a couple of sawn-off spanners from Amazon at around £10 (total) will sort that for my next trip. Insta Bish_1961

[Tim Tetrault]

Great to see this as possible on an AHH.... I have a side-pull canti Sam and might try these WTB resolutes, they're at a pretty good price point.

Tim